Fic Rec: Far Shore by Angelfish

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

Title: Far Shore
Author: Angelfish
Zine: Never Far Apart
Permission to archive the rec/review at Palely Loitering: Yes
Notes: Following on from bits and pieces that cropped up on byslantedlight’s post about what we were all reading, and from a back and forth with noblesentiments, I thought I’d take the plunge! (Folk should note that it's only available in the zine.)
Short review: It’s post-CI5, as it were. Doyle’s invalided out and in the Hebrides, carving out a difficult, solitary existence for himself. He and Bodie have been on the outs for two years, since a disaster in Northern Ireland that saw Bodie basically abandon Doyle and get married. One day, a car draws up, Bodie gets out.. and the rest of the story is the pair of them working out their respective demons amongst the heather and storms of north west Scotland.



I know this fic has caused mixed reactions, so I think I should state my take on it at the outset. I have a blind spot when it comes to Angelfish. I adore her, she’s my favourite writer in the fandom. And my blind spot is what I like to think of affectionately as the Maclean/Fish Syndrome. The pair of them do things to the lads that shouldn’t work in the cold light of day, but through the skill of their writing I’m drawn into their world, their Bodie and Doyle. Hook, line and bloody sinker. Yes, Ray Doyle – and Bodie, actually - weep a fair bit in this, but their demons break my heart in Far Shore, so I’m there. Yes, Ray goes a-scrabbling in the stones and Bodie leaves AGAIN, but my howl of frustration is recompensed by a Bodie who sits with Doyle on the floor and finally realises he has done enough, so I’m there. And yes, Bodie’s abandonment of Doyle remains inaccessible, but he’s such an awkward, tender diamond when it comes to caring for him second time around that, yup, I’m still there.

My favourite part of the story is the beginning of that second time around, actually, when they’re tentatively finding their way with each other again.

Gradually it bore itself in on both of them that they were living happily. It took some accepting. Neither had managed anything remotely like it before…
….They discussed the phenomenon and discovered that each had independently reached the conclusion that he would die on the streets too young to make any permanent attachment worthwhile…. Neither would have believed that each other was the heart of it – it had taken this long enforced experiment, subtracting the high-octane lifestyle, to show them what was left.

And besides all this, I get the Hebrides again. I spent every summer as a child camping there, so to have them again through the eyes of my favourite writer is the icing on a rather windswept cake for me. The weather did its Hebridean thing and soaked them between bursts of brilliant sunshine. Quite! And I love Bodie’s silent appreciation of the headlands and views Doyle shows him, “an uncomplaining serenity, most unlike his normal city self.”

Anyway, feel free to use these ramblings as a springboard. I deliberately haven’t been too detailed, so jump in. What did you love about it? Any misgivings? Why? I will simply end this, my own ‘Appreciation of Far Shore 101’, with her description of Bodie waiting for Doyle to come out of surgery. It catches at my heart everytime and I love it.

He had started to fall and had fallen like Lucifer until somehow Ray had stopped his descent. Somehow forgiven him. Loved him. Warmth like sunlight in winter branches went through Bodie’s limbs as he considered this, deliberately, consciously, for the first time, and the hard plastic chair and the smell of antiseptic faded out. That Doyle had come to love him during the years of their partnership he had eventually allowed himself to know. It had gone without saying, which was just as well. Bodie was not emotionally equipped for declaration, much as he had liked and come to rely on his partner’s affection.

Daily bread, or sunlight. Men like him seldom gave conscious thanks for either. Which was stupid, really, since both could be so easily discontinued. Since everything could.

Comments

[velvet-tipping.livejournal.com]

so where does one find this piece and other things of hers? there are only about three stories at the circuit archive.

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

It's a zine only rec - I'll add the word 'only' to the intro to make it clearer! It's from the recent Never Far Apart zine, details here if you're interested:

http://www.justazine.com/index.php?page=Zines

And yes, she does only have three other completed stories online, all at the Circuit Archive.

[moorspede.livejournal.com]

$28 +11 shipping, converted from US dollars = $47.60 They have *got* to be kidding.

[angel-ci5.livejournal.com]

I thought this was an absolutely amazing story, and it really got under my skin.
The writing was so beautiful and powerful, I was blown away by it.
The portrayal of each of the lads' pain (both physical and emotional) was so vivid, I felt every moment of it with them, and it utterly broke my heart.
I pretty much cried the whole way through it, and for several days after!

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

I get your reaction to it, I really do. I left reading of her story til last in the zine for the simple reason that I tend to live her stories for days afterwards. I wander around, completely unable to get them out of my head, and this was no exception. I allow very few fic writers to scour out my heart quite as Angelfish does.

[empty-mirrors.livejournal.com]

I found it very much like the parson's egg - good in parts. Some of the writing was exquisite, as Angelfish's writing often is. On that front I cannot fault her. She has some beautifully evocative scenes and emotional moments that truly touch the soul.

But there's also some real clangers.

Unlike you, I didn't get a good sense of place. Not because of the weather and the scenery - which were well painted - but because the people just felt very very wrong. There was no depth to them, no consistency in characterisation during the story (to whit, where the hell did the pass the doc made at Doyle come from?) and no real attempt to make them anything more than stereotypical local colour.

Added to this, and also on the subject of characterisation, was the lads. Oh god. Where are my down and dirty, hard living, hard drinking, womanising, tough guys? These two would make your average encounter group look macho. This was fainting flower Doyle (a pet hate) at his worst, and to add insult to injury Bodie was at it as well. No, I'm sorry, but these were not my lads. These two were not CI5 agents, or even ex-CI5 agents, however battered and bruised they might have been by life.

But, you know, I might have forgiven all this - and have been known to - if the plot had been good. It wasn't. It sucked. The thing about the curse and the standing stones at the end? Where the hell did that come from? I realise that there's such a thing as over flagging a twist, but some kind of warning would have been nice. As it was, there was nothing. Not even really a hint of the supernatural right up to the end when it was all explained by the local colour.

In some ways would have been nice to have had the supernatural themes explored more fully as it would have given the lads something to do that didn't involve breast beating and angsting like teenagers.

So, yeah, all in all I was very disappointed. I've been fond of the author's previous work, but she's gonna have to change her tune if she wants me back a reader.

And on that happy note, I'll rest my case.

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

I take your point on the pass with the doctor, that made me flinch too. ( I remember a similar reaction to the one Murphy makes at Doyle in ATY). As for the supernatural stuff, I'm glad it wasn't explored too much as a tangent, it's just not my thing in a fic ( exception being Ellis Ward's Legacy of Temptation, which is an AU anyway). There *are* some hints of the house and its past, but maybe not enough to prevent us from puzzling a little as to how - and why- Doyle unerringly uncovers those stones.

Normally a Doyle and a Bodie that emote like this are my pet hates too, but for some reason, I go along with her depiction of it here. Is it because of the demons themselves? Bodie's especially - the brutal murder of his child - means I allow his character more turmoil than I normally would, I think. I've not read any other fic that depicts such a thing.

Major Spoiler alert

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I want to like The Far Shore, I really really do, but something stops me every time I have a go at it… Actually several somethings, and while I can quite happily skim over the odd glitch in a piece of writing, when they seem to be as dense as they are here then I really struggle.

I do agree that a lot of the writing is beautiful, and a lot of the images are too. I really liked The back door still stood open, admitting a churchlike solemnity of light." description for example - a beautiful visual - but quite often what's going on through all the description seems to jar so much that I end up not being able to accept either.

The lads that she's written are so damaged that I can't see how they made it into CI5 in the first place, let alone survived everything ep-wise. Granted the author has thrown hideous trauma after hideous trauma at them, but the way she has them coping with that trauma - through tears and fainting spells and nosebleeds - just doesn't make any sense to me. If they didn't have ways of dealing with mental trauma - killing people on a daily basis, seeing the victims of crimes, knowing that they're helpless in so many cases, that they're responsible for such torment in other cases, all of which are canon - other than the physical relief of tears or blacking out or whatever, then they just wouldn't have survived as long as they have… (I struggled with this in All These Years as well actually - her touch seems to have become heavy somehow since her first two fics).

The soap-opera-ness of the plot got to me as well, I'm afraid. Just when it seemed that one trauma (or half a dozen) were resolving themselves, they were suddenly called out to rescue a boat at sea, or to sell Doyle's art (because he is, of course, an incredibly talented artist), or deal with Doyle's impotency, or an old merc mate of Bodie's is taking him away… It read very much to me as well this bit's finished, what can I throw at them next to make the story long enough?, so that in its entirety the fic felt… jerky somehow…

Other bits and pieces:

Modernisms. As bad as Americanisms, for me - "hardarse", "give it up to me", "psychotic episodes", "I'm not dealing with it", "just go with it", - none of these fit eighties slang, to me. (Willing to be told I'm wrong!) On the opposite side, I'd be surprised if supply teachers were hired with no qualifications in a 1980s Scottish state school (and see here (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/06/13113114/31477)) even if it is strange vocational classes he's teaching. Oh and with all the cuts that schools were facing back then, if they didn't need him enough in the first place (told him to take all the time he needed for his surgery) then they're not likely to have splashed out to employ him as a supply teacher - that's just not how it works. You either desperately needed to get supply teachers in, or you didn't. If a school was paying a supply teacher then it was likely paying them on top of the teacher they were replacing - otherwise they'd have hired on short-term contract.

The character McPherson - took me a moment to suss him out, and doing so pulled me right out of the story, which isn't a good thing on the first page! He was a Scottish name, in Scotland, who said "wee" and "bairns", but I eventually realised I was supposed to recognise him as Irish, because of "the reflex his accent stirred in Ray's gut". And there was me thinking at first that it was a bit daft of Doyle to have moved up to Scotland if Cowley's accent upset him that much… *g*

Re: Major Spoiler alert

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Speaking of Doyle being daft to move to such a remote place with such a major and disabling injury… Pride and depression and all allowing, I can't see him being that stupid about it - he had a go at death-wishing, it didn't work, and Doyle's a fighter, to me that's an integral part of his character, and he's smart. Then the rest of that thread - going private for the back surgery (with Doyle's socialist beliefs?), a long NHS waiting list for it (not sure about that either, not when he was in so much acute, life-threatening pain, not back in the eighties - and I've been there, seen it, done that too) and then having it done incredibly quickly privately and walking, absolutely pain-free, after apparently major surgery within 48 hours…

Otherwise, and as empty_mirrors says above, I have no sense of the characters as people in their own right, let alone Scottish, let alone Islanders. I didn't get the motivation of the doctor suddenly entertaining a gay relationship either - there was absolutely nothing to hint that he didn't have a very happy, stable het relationship with his wife. Yes, these things can come out of the blue, but again there are so many things coming out of the blue in this story that they stop ringing true after a while.

Ditto the earth-child moment about the "upper deck" of Doyle's house, and the bizarre standing stone supernatural trauma - there was so much else going on (I mean Doyle was out there about to die, right?) that it just seemed thrown in there for the sake of it.

Oh, and I must stop now, I'll probably have to double-post as it is! The worst thing is that those are all random things that have occurred to me again as I've flipped through the story - and I won't even go the way of grammar and too many typos - this isn't even me at my most picky. But so many things are what have kept dragging me "out of the story" by the scruff of my neck, it was happening on almost every page. It's not good to start laughing when you realise that one of the lads is about to faint, or burst into tears again, or on top of everything else can't get it up, or… you know? Part way through I realised that I was car-crash reading - not because I cared about these pathetic versions of the lads, but because I wondered what in the world was left to happen next...

I promise that after reading her first two stories (Chances and Broken Cover) my first thought on seeing Angelfish fic has been yeaaaaay - but it's just not panning out in either this story or the last one. It's as though she's lost any sense of balance as she tries to make the words more beautiful, the characters more traumatised, and the world a more magical place.

So... is it just me then? :s

Re: Major Spoiler alert

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

I really enjoyed reading through your reply - Wow. You brought up so many things to talk and think about - thank you! I'll just respond to a couple here..

Okay, I didn't find the plot jerky, though when I realised Bodie was off AGAIN I wanted to throw something. I liked the fact that the plot is... well, that it's basically just the two of them working things out. I didn't need anything other than that to propel them forward through the story, and the Hebrides and its people were fine for me( except that bit with the doc, which I agree with empty_mirrors jarred).

Doyle's motivation for being in Scotland never struck me as bizarre, I rather like that stoic, spartan exixtence he thinks he deserves. I admit to having little knowledge about the world of supply teaching at that time, so that wouldn't strike me as odd, either. Personally, I would much rather have had more on Bodie's motivation for his intial abandonment of Doyle after Northern Ireland.

"Hardarse" doesn't strike me as American - tho' I could well be wrong. (I'm a Birt who neverthless needs a Brit-check on her fics, so Americanisms don't always jump out at me). And Angelfish always seems to do her own thing to English sentences regarding structures, etc. For me it works and doesn't distract.

Part way through I realised that I was car-crash reading I don't agree for this fic, but boy, you make me laugh! I *love* this expression and will have to remember it for future reference ( Ditto the "earth-child moment"- hee:))

(I love the last sentence of your comment, btw - I don't agree - but I love and wish I had your eloquence..:)))

Re: Major Spoiler alert

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh but it is interesting to disagree strongly about something like this, isn't it?! I'm fascinated by the way people take such different things from stories - can read things so differently. We do it through our own experiences, of course, so I suppose it's to be expected, but... well it's still interesting!

And interestingly enough, I agree with some of the things you've said here too - I adore the idea of Doyle running away to somewhere stark and isolated to lick his wounds. I think that for me the motivation for it is just a little bit out - I can imagine him doing it, yes, but can I imagine him making a decision to do so knowing that he could die a lingering death? It doesn't seem his style - whereas the leap over the concrete floor would - he'd hope in a brief moment of irrationality - be quick and consuming. But that's clearly my little version of how-Doyle-would-reason/react!

...well, that it's basically just the two of them working things out. I didn't need anything other than that to propel them forward through the story
Yes! But that's just what I mean! Their working things out seemed to take in so many other disasters that need not have happened to take them through the just-being-them dealing with the initial huge trauma! Which was enough I thought... Interesting innit - same angle, different ways of seeing it... *g*

"Hardarse" doesn't strike me as American
Oh no, I didn't mean to suggest that it specifically was (though I suspect it is, it's usually spelled "hard-ass", which suggests so...) - but it's a modernism, not something that people would have said back then I don't think, which throws me as much as Americanisms do in Pros. Clearly other people don't mind/notice, and that's interesting too - what's the balance between making something culturally accurate (time-wise as well), and making it accessible to people reading it from both other cultures and other times (ie thirty years later!)? Goes the other way too - I've read O. Yardley stories (and I adore her fic) that make the lads sound very old-fashioned, which isn't right either - though at least they'd know those phrases!

Oh I love people messing around with sentence structure too - variety's the spice and all that, that wasn't a problem for me at all. I didn't really have a problem with her very lush descriptions either, although I believe some people found them too much. It was more the combination of it all, I think...

*wanders off to think some more...* (*and stops using the word "interesting"!*)

Re: Major Spoiler alert

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

what's the balance between making something culturally accurate (time-wise as well), and making it accessible to people reading it from both other cultures and other times (ie thirty years later!)? Ohhh, very interesting point here. Sometimes you get that perfect word for smth in a story as a writer, and you just beat your breast and tear your hair because you can't use it, it's too modern - (Oh, for one of these modern fandoms to grab me!) For 'A Falling Off' I remeber that I wanted to describe smn as a "terrorist wannabe", and of course I couldn't. Came up with 'would be terorist' instead, which is ok, but not nearly as good as the modern equivalent.

And in a S/H fic one time I had Hutch refer to smth as the 'soccer mom save'. I kept it in, because it was the key moment, and nothing else worked. From f/b some loved it *because* of that, others felt jolted out - so as you say, it's all about personal experiences we bring to stories, and striking that balance as a writer.

Oh but it is interesting to disagree strongly about something like this, isn't it?! Absolutely. Vive la difference, my friend!!

Re: Major Spoiler alert

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

(with Doyle's socialist beliefs?)

Look out everyone, but I've been thinking........about this and I think it's an interesting point because I've read it many times and I'm wondering *why* we all think Doyle has socialist leanings? Is there evidence in the episodes to support this? Apart from his recognition of Marcuse and Hegel which wouldn't mean he's a socialist by a long shot, but anyway.... And if there *is* evidence to support this I wonder how it ties in with some of his more misogynistic moments e.g. referring to a woman as a 'slag' without even blinking. (And if there is evidence to show he's a socialist he wouldn't be the first one to go private!).

Re: Major Spoiler alert

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh very good question!

I had to go and look up Hegel and Marcuse, so it definitely wasn't them I was thinking about (*g*) For me it's more those moments in Mickey Hamilton where Doyle's the one who points out that the killer must be sick rather than just evil, his awareness that "there aren't enough doctors", and particularly at the end where he doesn't believe that no one could have helped Hamilton. He feels that someone should have caught Hamilton's situation and thus been able to prevent the deaths - which implies to me a belief that society should be helping people like that.

Of course Cowley accuses Doyle of being an "idealist" - which I know doesn't necessarily equate with socialism, but quite often does...

Then little things - like the fact that he does seem to be affected by some of the deaths that he's involved with (DiaG) rather than taking it as read, that Bodie accuses him of being a "one-man Geneva Convention" in Mixed Doubles, that Doyle has apparently gone out of his way in the past to help kids on the street (not socialism in itself that, but another tendency, perhaps...) Oh, his belief that "hookers are women too"...

As for calling women "slags" being a sign of misogyny (cf calling men "bastards"?) I'm not sure that I necessarily equate socialism with a lack of sexism to be honest - different things, they are! I've known some very sexist socialists! But is calling women names a sign of misogyny when it's in some sort of context? Any more than calling men names is? (Not that I'd encourage either, but then I wouldn't encourage guns on the street either!) I actually think it's far more sexist of him to have told Susan that she shouldn't be out on the streets during Purging - why isn't she, as a trained agent, just as safe as Bodie and Doyle?!

Actually, along these lines, what I always wonder is why Bodie's the one who's always accused of racism (including by Doyle) when Doyle says some extremely racist things about Chinese people in the ep with the stun gas... I know there were different understandings of what was acceptable back when the series was made, but people now who note Bodie's racism in Klansmen don't seem to think anything of Doyle's racism at all! (Maybe they're putting it down to goading the guy that they've picked up..?)

And no, being a socialist doesn't preclude having private treatment (though more these days, I think?) but he accepts the option in a much more year 2000s way than in a 1980s-Doyle way, I thought... And of course this is all through my vision of Doyle, as I said above - and everyone's got their own!

Re: Major Spoiler alert

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Thanks for considering this and I knew the *rumour* came from somewhere but coudn't think of specifics...

I do agree that there are lots of examples where he's shown to be quite idealistic and yes, Cowley actually says that of him, but I'm not sure that idealism or even caring for people and society itself e.g. not having enough doctors, is the sole property of socialists. Victorian philanthropists and so-called New Liberals at the turn of the century (and the great Liberal himself, Lloyd George) have an admirable record - in some ways unequalled - when it comes to social improvement. But I know what you mean and thanks for reminding me with some very good examples! And yes, as you say, he does have certain left-leaning tendencies (apart from his other tendencies).

As for calling women "slags" being a sign of misogyny (cf calling men "bastards"?) I'm not sure that I necessarily equate socialism with a lack of sexism to be honest - different things, they are! I've known some very sexist socialists!

Yeah, I know what you mean.... and tight-fisted bastards a lot of them are too, but that's another story.....I suppose I'm thinking of the traditional socialist belief in equality, whether it be equality of income, opportunity, race, gender, blah, blah i.e. being opposed to discrimination and prejudice of all kinds, so lumping women together like that in a derogatory way seems inconsistent and hypocritical.

I actually think it's far more sexist of him to have told Susan that she shouldn't be out on the streets during Purging - why isn't she, as a trained agent, just as safe as Bodie and Doyle?!

True and I agree.

Actually, along these lines, what I always wonder is why Bodie's the one who's always accused of racism (including by Doyle) when Doyle says some extremely racist things about Chinese people in the ep with the stun gas... I know there were different understandings of what was acceptable back when the series was made, but people now who note Bodie's racism in Klansmen don't seem to think anything of Doyle's racism at all! (Maybe they're putting it down to goading the guy that they've picked up..?)

Excellent point, I hadn't thought about Doyle and the Chinese connection.
I can't exactly remember what Doyle says about them, but if his opinions were based on his experience of them, then I think that's fair game...he's not pre-judging but post-judging, I suppose? Hmmmm, I think I've just made up a new word. But don't forget Bodie's performance in Klansman - I don't think Doyle equals that anywhere and I would think that must be where Bodie gets his rascist reputation from.

Thanks for that!

Re: Major Spoiler alert

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

Nothing stunning to add here - just to say thank you to you and byslantedlight for such an interesting tangent - I enjoyed reading both your comments and, it is interesting the asumptions we make based on what we perceive as the characters' backgrounds, etc. And what we try and understand from the comments they make in the eps. Bodie is army, from Liverpool, suave and well-read at times, and clearly portrayed as uncomfortable with black people in the middle-classes - so are we to assume he's a right-wing conservative? One for Thatcher? And then Doyle, based on the way he talks, the few titbits we learn about his background, his sympathy for all and sundry, his tolerance, his impatience with the lack of it in Bodie, his anti-army stance.. are we to think that means he's a left-wing socialist? One for Labour?

Y'know, there is a fic out there waiting to be written about this! The lads, in the Capri, bored out their minds on a stakeout and the talk turns to politics of a wet Monday afternoon...*g*

Re: Major Spoiler alert

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I totally have to jump in again, just cos... oh gawd, it's interesting! *g*

See, I'd never say Bodie was a right-wing conservative, for all what you've said above is true - for me there are other things about his personality that transcend those very basic canon truths. I can't imagine Bodie bothering to vote at all, to be honest - I think he has other priorities in life, other things that he thinks are more important. I can see him being more of the doesn't-matter-who's-in-charge-it's-all-the-same-to-us school of thought. He wouldn't really have a political side to him...

Whereas Doyle would turn around and say summat like "Yeah, but it all affects the little man at the bottom, and they're the ones we've got to watch out for..." He's more bigger-picture, to me...

Be an interesting angle to include in a fic, definitely... *g* Although politics always gets people going, doesn't it - wonder what fans would think if you slanted their favourite character in a way that didn't go along with their own political beliefs?!

Re: Major Spoiler alert

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

but I'm not sure that idealism or even caring for people and society itself e.g. not having enough doctors, is the sole property of socialists.
No, quite true, but these are just some of Doyle's thoughts/beliefs, and for me, when you add them with various other things he's said/done, it suggests socialism in his case.

I suppose I'm thinking of the traditional socialist belief in equality, whether it be... so lumping women together like that in a derogatory way seems inconsistent and hypocritical.
Yeah, I know what you mean, I suppose I'm thinking of it flawed-realistically rather than ideally... That's the trouble with any philosophy/politics isn't it, people being people they never seem to have come out as they were originally supposed to... Which is why I suppose they're called ideal-ologies! *g*

he's not pre-judging but post-judging, I suppose?
Yeah, but he's lumping every Chinese person together as if they all had the exact same thoughts etc, which to me is rather racist stereotyping - I think he says something like "Chinese are like that. They respect authority." but it's as much his attitude as anything else... And then of course he and Bodie do the whole "Birds as well?" - "Oh, especially the birds." - "Never 'ad a Chinese bird" thing, which is also pretty off!

But don't forget Bodie's performance in Klansman - I don't think Doyle equals that anywhere and I would think that must be where Bodie gets his rascist reputation from.
Oh yeah, definitely - but we were supposed to think that Bodie's racist here, that's the whole point. We're supposed to think that Doyle (not just in this ep but presumably as his character) isn't... It's the whole things-that-were-acceptible-back-then thing, I guess, isn't it... But then getting upset about them is like getting upset because five hundred years ago people thought the earth was flat - you can say now Well of course they were wrong but there's no point getting all hoity-toity about it, we've just learned better since... I guess. *g*

Re: Major Spoiler alert

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Good points, as always.

but I'm not sure that idealism or even caring for people and society itself e.g. not having enough doctors, is the sole property of socialists.
.......No, quite true, but these are just some of Doyle's thoughts/beliefs, and for me, when you add them with various other things he's said/done, it suggests socialism in his case.

I'm not convinced it necessarily suggests socialism......I think Doyle is too much of a free spirit to follow something as hidebound as socialism. He definitely comes across as someone on the left and maybe in his dreams he aspires to something akin to a more libertarian type of socialism - I can see that - even though as a copper he was once part of the 'ideological state apparatus'

I suppose I'm thinking of the traditional socialist belief in equality, whether it be... so lumping women together like that in a derogatory way seems inconsistent and hypocritical.
Yeah, I know what you mean, I suppose I'm thinking of it flawed-realistically rather than ideally... That's the trouble with any philosophy/politics isn't it, people being people they never seem to have come out as they were originally supposed to...

People being people and living practical lives and forced to make practical decisions, I would think it's almost impossible - much of the time - to stick to political principles.

Which is why I suppose they're called ideal-ologies! *g*

I always think of ideology more as the study of ideas and doctrines than ideals!

he's not pre-judging but post-judging, I suppose?
Yeah, but he's lumping every Chinese person together as if they all had the exact same thoughts etc, which to me is rather racist stereotyping - I think he says something like "Chinese are like that. They respect authority."

Yeah, to be fair, I was assuming something unspoken here, some subtext like: in my experience the Chinese respect authority, which I think would have been a fair enough statement.

but it's as much his attitude as anything else... And then of course he and Bodie do the whole "Birds as well?" - "Oh, especially the birds." - "Never 'ad a Chinese bird" thing, which is also pretty off!

Yeah, didn't like that - derogatory to the Chinese and women.

Re: Major Spoiler alert

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I think Doyle is too much of a free spirit to follow something as hidebound as socialism.
Eep - think we're at cross-purposes here! I completely agree with you, and I'd never call Doyle "A Socialist", I was originally using the word to mean "left-leaning" I suppose - because "left" can mean so many different things these days. Is the current Labour party "left"? No, it so isn't! Is it more left than the Tories? (Hah, well, debatable!) Perhaps... But I think Doyle has more of an tendency towards "socialist" ideals than towards "right-wing" ideals. Mind you, it's never black and white, is it, and he does work for what most socialists would call a crypto-fascist governmental agency! (Don't pick me up on "crypto-fascist", I just think it sounds good! *waves to Red Dwarf*)

I always think of ideology more as the study of ideas and doctrines than ideals!
Bugger, that'll teach me to post during first coffee - I was thinking of Doyle's ideal-ism of course... *headdesk*

Re: Major Spoiler alert

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Eep - think we're at cross-purposes here! I completely agree with you, and I'd never call Doyle "A Socialist", I was originally using the word to mean But I think Doyle has more of an tendency towards "socialist" ideals than towards "right-wing" ideals.

Sorry, if I put words into your mouth! And yes, I'd say he was left-leaning - in the broadest sense of the word - and it's more the statist element to socialism which I'd think he'd have little truck with. And in some ways they could both be seen as apolitical animals - Doyle in his free spirt sense, and Bodie in the sense that he's ex-army and the army is supposed to be apolitical, following the orders of their political masters whoever they may be and so, he follows Cowley's order fairly unquestioningly, too. And membership of Ci5: well, wasn't it claimed somewhere that it's 'above the law', so maybe it's above the state? Dunno.

I always think of ideology more as the study of ideas and doctrines than ideals!

....Bugger, that'll teach me to post during first coffee - I was thinking of Doyle's ideal-ism of course... *headdesk*

Phew, that's a relief! You really had me worried there for a minute, trying to pick my way through the intellectual subtley of this new word!.

Re: Major Spoiler alert

[magenta-blue.livejournal.com]

This is a really interesting discussion. Another perhaps example of Doyle's left leaning is during It's Only A Beautiful Picture - when Doyle is being grilled by the copper that he should mind his manners as 'Colonel Sangster is not an ordinary citizen.' And Doyle replies as he goes out of the door 'class system rules, okay' - which reminded me very much of a nod to the BBC comedy Citizen Smith (aired 1977), although it probably wasn't intended as such, as the phrase is, as Doyle says next, 'just a saying'. *g*

Re: Major Spoiler alert

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah! Great example. Doesn't he stick his arm in the air at one stage, Citizen Smith style? Yes, I'd say he definitely leans to the left, hand on hip.

Thanks for that!

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

So much has been said here already but I just wanted to add that I found this story - like many descriptions of Doyle’s face - beautifully flawed. I loved and devoured large chunks of it to the extent that every time I put it down I actually looked forward to returning to it (which is rare these days), it was always on my mind and I wanted to know what was happening in their lives and what the next stage was in their relationship blah blah blah. I loved the beautiful writing, the atmosphere, the setting (and I really could see them there), their (desired) isolation within that setting, and I think some of the more problematic details mentioned above didn’t really bother me as long as they didn’t detract from the story, i.e. to repeat someone else’s description, as long as they ‘didn’t jar' for me. But, a couple of things *did* jar and I think that’s a shame because they could so easily have been corrected or tidied up: e.g. Bodie’s ‘drowning scene’ - I had to read a couple of times to work out what was actually happening; the now famous ‘GP’ scene and the idea that a happily married GP would suddenly contemplate having sex with a patient (and the fact that he was a happily married family man had been stressed by the writer, so it seemed more odd) – I don’t think the writer needed that scene and she gave herself more work by including it, and, more importantly, it made me scratch my head about Doyle at that stage, made me question my perception of him and so interrupted the flow of reading (not to mention the fact that Bodie disappeared a bit too easily, given the strength of their feelings at that time).

I think maybe the problem is that I’m judging this particular writer by her own near-perfect standards and what might be overlooked or glossed over in a more mediocre or below-average story writer/story stands out more in her work, because – in my opinion - her norm is so damn good. And it seems a shame to achieve the hardest part i.e. the beautiful writing, while missing out other things like the (slight) inconsistencies mentioned above which could so easily have been ironed out. But anyway, despite it not being perfect(!) I loved a lot of it, still think it’s head and shoulders above most other stories and I definitely intend reading it again. Amen.

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

I found this story - like many descriptions of Doyle’s face - beautifully flawed. Now there's a poetic way to say it - what a lovely description! It's interesting, isn't it,that the doctor scene jars with most of us - even those like me who love unreservedly.

I think the point in your last paragraph is a very valid one. A new Angelfish fic is an event, expectations are incredibly high when it happens. She writes so few and is held in such high regard, as you say her norm is so damn good, that any flaws /inconsistencies maybe stand out more somehow?

I'm with you, though. It's a fic I will read and savour again and again.

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Thanks for this, C.

I'm with you, though. It's a fic I will read and savour again and again.

I shall definitely read it again. I think I've mentioned elsewhere that I did read it very quickly the first time round but I've got a feeling that I'll like it even more second time.

[paris7am.livejournal.com]

S2K,
This is a masterful piece of writing in itself. Thank you. The quote which Callisto pulled out is incredible - one I'll remember.

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

oooooh, thanks! It wasn't original but I'll accept the compliment anyway!

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

I'm so daft....the quote wasn't original but the rest of it was! Thanks again.

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

Major spoilers, I'm sure...

I'm away from home, so I can't quote specific lines, since I don't have my zine but my very favorite line was when Doyle let Bodie return the second time and Bodie questions Doyle about what had happened, whether it was a suicide attempt or an accident. Bodie says (not a quote!) not over me! To which, Doyle replies, if not over you, over us, then what is worth it? Completely paraphrased, but that line almost made me cry. It was so touching and desperate. That alone might be a good thing (it is for me) or a bad thing for others!

Okay, I loved the story as a whole. I'm willing to overlook the parts I hated (that damned doctor scene) and the very idea that Bodie left again. But I understand why Bodie left again, but he does return. Even Bodie asks Doyle why he took him back a third time! But then, I have to had my lads together by the end, so I was happy.

I think the writing was beautiful. Sometimes I did have to reread because of the amoust of imagery included. Actually, I read the end first (I hate being dragged into a death or sepearation story!), then hurridly read the story. The second time I read it slowly, enjoying it yet again.

Yes, I have problems with some of the scenes, but as a writer, I know how I feel about including things that maybe I love myself without realising that it might toss a reader right out. None of us can do it perfectly. Where's the fun in that? But overall, I loved the story.

I understand about the characters being so damaged. It was hard to read, but for a romance reader and writer, I didn't mind at all. I liked their struggle back to health and love, but then, I'm a sucker for that kind of story as long as the pain and anguish isn't too over the top. For me, this wasn't over the top. I have rec'd this story and the entire zine. It's one of the few zines I've bought in any fandom that I've been able to read through the entire thing and liked every story. Some crossed over into downright love.

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

Thanks for taking the time for this when you're on your holidays! I think the writing was beautiful. Me, too. You just kind of fall into some of her paragraphs and images.

And as I've mentioned, I think I allow the characters to emote as much as they do in this story because of the nature of the demons she curses them with. So the damage is in proportion to the struggle, as it were.

It is a superb zine, isn't it? I don't own many, but this is by far the most beautiful in terms of how it looks and how it reads - I too enjoyed every story and have reread it a few times already.

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

I've mixed feelings about this story. I loved the setting and didn't mind the stock background characters because, as someone else mentioned, I basically read these fics for the central relationship. So...I excuse or ignore in a fic what I would rate harshly in a novel or short story. It's a different art form entirely.

The suddenly amorous doctor took me, like everyone else, aback -- in fairness I thought he was an otherwise well-drawn character.

The supernatural element needed to have been foreshadowed, no ifs ands or buts. Subtly. Because without the foreshadowing it came out of left field, and instead of resonating, resulted in a huh? moment.

The writing, as usual, is beautiful, but the lyrical gymnastics occasionally get in the way -- it's a sort of flexing of writing muscles performed (and this will sound unkind) for the mirror. Or other writers. Less is more in effective writing -- of course that's strictly my own opinion. Some people just prefer more and more.

From my perspective she's still having problems with structure and dramatic arc, but she's getting better, and where she's good, she's very good and (for me) makes up for any weaknesses. And she ended cleanly this time.

All that said, I really liked this -- it genuinely moved me, which is strange because it's chock-full of all kinds of things that drive me nuts: weeping, fainting Doyle for starters. Her vision of the lads is so...off-kilter at times that it almost feels AU to me. Yet...I buy it. I bought it in All These Years as well. Or maybe it's because, although these characters are not the Doyle and Bodie I know, they are vivid and appealing enough in their own right to draw me along.

I have to admit she certainly gives adequate reasons for fainting, weeping and nosebleeds -- not to mention suicide and nervous breakdowns.

I was disconcerted by the amount of anguish and damage she heaped on them -- and the thing with the kid sickened me. Not a comfortable or pleasant read, which is not a bad thing necessarily.

The idea that Bodie would abandon Doyle was painful in the extreme, but I thought both times she created believable circumstances for it. The betrayals angered me, but felt believable.

Maybe I was in the mood for soap opera? I don't know. This caught me.

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

The suddenly amorous doctor took me, like everyone else, aback -- in fairness I thought he was an otherwise well-drawn character. Yes he was, wasn't he? And it's not Doyle making the pass that's the problem, either. It's the doctor's response to it that seems to jar.

And yes, Far Shore genuinely moves me, too. Which is rare in fanfic for me. I don't think of it as soap-opera, though, I don't feel that my emotions are being manipulated by trauma for the sheer sake of it. Her world and her vision of the lads is one she sells me. Like Kate Maclean, she's never an easy read but entirely worth the effort.

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

And it's not Doyle making the pass that's the problem, either. It's the doctor's response to it that seems to jar.

I agree that Doyle's reckless behavior seemed in keeping with his level of pain. And I could have bought the doc's response if there had been some foreshadowing.

And yes, Far Shore genuinely moves me, too. Which is rare in fanfic for me. I don't think of it as soap-opera, though, I don't feel that my emotions are being manipulated by trauma for the sheer sake of it.

I was responding to the earlier use of soap opera; I don't know that it really was soap opera so much as there's a problem with (for lack of better term) the emotional pacing. Not enough lulls between the crests.

I thought a couple of crucial bits were left out -- from the point of the surgery -- scenes that would have allowed us to watch the relationship building and deepening -- and that would have evened out and balanced the occasionally frenetic/histrionic tenor of the rest of the story.

Granted it's always tricky to know what's essential.

Her world and her vision of the lads is one she sells me. Like Kate Maclean, she's never an easy read but entirely worth the effort.

Now MacLean...whole different kettle of fish. Very accomplished and experienced writer. Clean, spare prose, tight structure, careful, even pacing (although I'd probably have chopped 30 - 40K out of Redemption, but that's just me). I think her Yellow Brick Road is one of the best things ever written in Pros.

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

I think her Yellow Brick Road is one of the best things ever written in Pros. Me too. justacat got me hooked on Kate Maclean, and zine-free zone that I am, (due to expensive, problematic geography *g*), YBR is possibly the best Pros investment I ever made, and I'm looking forward to Redemption.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

You've read "Telling Marge", up at Hatstand? (Just butting in to check... *g*)

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

You've read "Telling Marge", up at Hatstand? (Just butting in to check... *g*)

Ah... Yes. And a couple of short fics that Justacat was kind enough to send me. All of which I enjoyed, but something about YBR just...hit home in a way that nothing else has. An almost perfect blending of canon and original writing.

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

Yup, certainly have. It's good, but it's her first fic, I think? So for me she really hits her stride with Scenes From the Edge, All or Nothing, and the absolutely brilliant Choosing.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I don't know that it really was soap opera so much as there's a problem with (for lack of better term) the emotional pacing. Not enough lulls between the crests.
Yes! (Butting in, cos I think it was me first used the term "soap opera" about it) Yes, this is a much better way to describe the way I feel about it. If there'd been more breathing space between each crisis/miracle then I would have been much more comfortable reading The Far Shore!

I often love fic that's "Never an easy read" (Elizabeth Holden's "Forever True" (zine only) springs to mind, oh and Castalia - "Snowman With A Dark Coat" is another of my favourite fics for that very reason!) I find it hard to compare MacLean (who I also adore) with Angelfish though - such different styles, and yet they've both got ways of making you feel deeply. I'd say Angelfish was better for this in her first two stories though... less overwrought, and therefore a cleaner emotional impact?

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

and Castalia - "Snowman With A Dark Coat" is another of my favourite fics for that very reason!) God, I love that story. All that..stillness, especially in that opening scene; it has always stayed with me.

And I was comparing Angelfish and Maclean in my initial post in terms of the effect their writing has on me, the way they draw me in to their visions of Bodie and Doyle. As you say, very different styles and visions - a Bodie who emotes in far Shore and one who is almost brutal for much of YBR. But for me they create believable contexts for their Bodies, so I do feel deeply involved.

[magenta-blue.livejournal.com]

Have to say - your description of 'Snowman With A Dark Coat' - All that..stillness, especially in that opening scene; it has always stayed with me. - is absolutely perfect. That is exactly how I feel, 'all that...stillness'. Ahh, achingly lovely!

Spoilers ahead...

[magenta-blue.livejournal.com]

Hello – sorry late to the discussion! I was not keen at all on Far Shore, which was surprising and in a way disappointing, as I love Chances and All These Years, so was hoping for the same emotional connection.

But with this, my mind kept drifting away. I almost put it down twice without finishing, but then couldn’t help but pick up again to see if got any better. It just felt like she hadn't really thought through what the story was about and instead chucked a dozen plot devices at it to see what sparked, if any.

And some points just didn't sit easy with me - such as how, if they only had a phone installed a couple of days ago, how did Rosie know to call Bodie there and tell him of the funeral? And surely he wouldn't be so disconnected (or maybe callous is the word I want) as to leave her the week their child is killed to sort out the funeral etc and just to tell him about it, even if she blamed him, wouldn't he have stayed that week at least? And Bodie with Keller and Murphy and liking it rough whatever, just felt squooshed into the storyline for no apparent reason, and Doyle to suddenly want it like that also felt squooshed, and if he was in awful pain for so long, well it was over and done with quite quick, and the whole doctor insert... Do see you what I mean - all squooshed!

There were some gorgeous lines, she does play with words in a very nice, totally beautiful way, but... unless I like or believe the storyline, I won't enjoy it. I guess in a way I was expecting great things, maybe I would be more forgiving if this was an author I hadn’t heard of before, or if her last two stories were not so tight, in a way.