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I dunno - this is short, but there are an awful lot of non-Doyle things, for me.

I can't imagine him forgetting the house that he lived in for 17+ years of his life - not only was he old enough when he left, but he's got a good memory for things, and if he didn't then he'd have struggled in the police. Plus he's been to Gabe's house, which was only ten houses away, so surely...!

I can't really imagine him deciding not to visit his mum, since he's gone all the way to Derby. The Doyle we see in the eps is pretty compassionate. I can get past it, because she didn't stand up for him against his dad, but... still, I think he'd go. If nothing else, to make sure that she's okay, especially since there's a boarded up window in her house.

He's far too uncertain and submissive in this chapter too, except perhaps with the boy on the bike. That sentence in the first paragraph - "Gabe," he says uncertainly, "Which one was mine?" Then later "he feels his guts clench" when Gabe suggests he visit his mum, and later wakes up "whispering [Bodie's] name". When Gabe tells him Cowley's phoned his mum, Doyle "subsides onto the bed", and Gabe holds both his hands and tells him "You're going to have to be brave" (as if he was six years old!) Then it's Gabe that tells him what to do, to get dressed while he gets a hire car, and Gabe who gives him money for it (again, as if he was a kid rather than someone who's probably got a credit card by now!)

I mean, I know it was all supposed to be very traumatic, but... it just seemed like too much. Where's the bolshy, defiant Doyle that we know and love (and who was set up for us, too, in the Prologue)?

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...Yeah.

I mean, honestly, one of the things I love in Doyle is that temper (well, not throwing people off buildings) and how it usually has its base in a rage against something unjust or wrong. So the kid on the bike, I can see that on Gabe's behalf, but since he himself IS the thing the kid is jeering at, but we don't have a scene of him reacting to the racial slurs against Gabe, I dunno--is this anger about Gabe or about Doyle?

And I agree, he seems weirdly helpless. He seems to swing back and forth more than makes sense to me.

So right at the end, what was Gabe's "open-mouthed passion"? Platonic? What is that kiss for? Does he think it's goodbye? Well, honestly, I never have a good sense of Gabe as a character.

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Yes, I love that Doyle has such a strong sense of justice too! Okay, not all the time, not when he's decided that someone's worth throwing off a building (echoes of Cowley!) but in general he does... and there's the echo of it here with the boy on the bike. I think I definitely fed that into the way I read Doyle in this ep, with the kid - he's reacting against the slur against Doyle and Gabe, and the fact that "poofter" was a slur at all. I don't think he's just being angry cos someone's calling him a name, rather than because someone's calling a name that shouldn't be an insult to start with...

He does rather seem to swing between helpless and competent-tough Doyle... I think I feel a bit dizzy with it...!

The kiss at the end - for me it was Gabe admitting that he did still love Doyle in the same way that they'd always loved each other, that deeply. Not just as friends, but as more than that - it was Gabe's confession to Doyle, that it had all been real, even if their lives were now going in different directions...

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I mean, honestly, one of the things I love in Doyle is that temper

Me too. So many blokes seem dead from the neck up, unable to express their emotions and so you never know what's going on, whereas Doyle is alive, very intense and so very attractive. Funny that really, because in Bodie I like the fact that it's the opposite and you don't really know what's going on under that calm but (sometimes) deadly exterior.

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I do agree with you on many of the non-Doyle things e.g.. I doubt if he’d forget where he lived (unless he actually wanted to forget) and the author is still making him far too wimpy and weepy in this chapter which he really isn’t. But I do feel it’s possible that the trauma (one perhaps which bordered on a nervous breakdown?) he suffered where everything in his life had changed or ended and was associated with extreme violence, could have led to the position where he just couldn’t bear to go back there and that included seeing his mum again, especially when, until recently, he thought that his father was still alive. And his mum has let him down on two basic and fundamental levels: failure to protect him in the family home and failure to accept his homosexuality. And fanon Doyle (and Bodie) seems pretty insular in a family sense e.g. when he endures a near death experience it's Bodie and Cowley who are at his bedside, not family members, and it's Bodie who takes him home from hospital.

And maybe Gabe's care of Doyle is just him reverting to type, caring for people is how he earns his daily bread and butter and what he does well *and* he does actually care a lot for Doyle. Yes, maybe he shouldn't treat Doyle like a child and I'm not sure why the author's written it that way.... perhaps it's what we all do when we care for people? Kind of infantasize (? is that a word?) things a bit in order for the care to be less embarrassing, more easy to give and receive as you would do with a child? Who knows? The author's writing style is strange in that most of it is really good but then, sometimes, she lets herself down and writes the main very tough characters in an unrealistic, unrecognisable way.

Edited Date: 2019-05-15 09:42 pm (UTC)

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Yes, I get that he's supposed to be so traumatised that he's perhaps doing things that we wouldn't expect. That's what trauma is, after all, it's something else controlling the way we behave, making us "not ourselves". And the lads do seem to reject families in general in the eps (except for Doyle's comment about Bodie's shoes - "I bet your mother's feet are cold."!) So I can go along with that set-up. I struggle with the idea that bolshy-Doyle's response is quite so passive and uncertain though, I really do. Do we ever see him uncertain like that in the eps? (I know, we don't see this happening to him in the eps, but still...)

I can see Gabe perhaps acting the way he does with Doyle, I think I struggle to see Doyle reacting the way he's shown to react...

I don't know that people necessarily "infantalise" those who need help as a general rule. Speaking carefully and sensitively is definitely a thing, but... And again, it's not so much what Gabe does and says, as the fact that the author's written Doyle as needing that... Back to the trauma-makes-us-different, perhaps...

As you say though, I think it's the mixed-up writing that's what's really making me dizzy though - one minute Doyle is tough and competent, the next minute he's facing something where it seems his competence should kick in, but the author seems to want us to believe that it doesn't for whatever reason. And I'm not sure she's convinced me enough that the trauma will beat Doyle's competence...

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Do we ever see him uncertain like that in the eps? (I know, we don't see this happening to him in the eps, but still...)

The only time I can think of is when Barry Martin in Rogue is shot by a third party at the end of the episode. Doyle, who is about to shoot him, is very dazed/shocked/disbelieving in what's just happened when he says I never shot him. It came from the ship.

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I think part of what this chapter is meant to do is to let Doyle and the reader know that he really is past that trauma, for the most part. Forgetting where his house was (though he remembers how to get there from Gabe's so the memory problem seems temporary) is one way he's really let go of the place he was beaten; seeing his father's grave and deciding not to see his mother ... I guess I wanted him to see his mother because the way she now remembers Ray's "sin" and injury could have also reflected back on how Ray has processed the trauma. My experience suggests that she may still see it as his own fault, or their estrangement as his fault, and I guess I didn't need to read that. I read through a bunch of linked blog posts on estranged parents support groups and how they can reinforce blaming the child. If that's the way it would go, maybe I would have made Angelfish's choice, but it feels like the boarded up window and the refusal to visit are foreshadowing, but the trend of the plot is away from Derby.

The mystic feeling that Bodie must be alive is too romantic for me. A feeling like that in a predominantly realistically grim story makes me more anxious rather than less. Actually, that may be how I am supposed to feel.

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Forgetting where his house was (though he remembers how to get there from Gabe's so the memory problem seems temporary) is one way he's really let go of the place he was beaten
Interesting thought, but I'm inclined to see it the other way myself - he's still blocking memories, and not really accepting things for what they were, and that's perhaps reflected in the way that he won't face his mum either. He's faced his father's death by going to visit his grave, and he's face Gabe and their relationship by meeting him and coming to Derby with him, and recreating something innocent that they did as friends, but he still won't face up to his mother's role in his life - perhaps symbolised by the blocked window in his old house. You know, if you want to do that kind of interpreting! *g*

I agree that the mystic feeling of Bodie still being alive seems at odds with the more gritty reality that we've been presented with as their relationship elsewhere though...

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gilda-elise.livejournal.com

Yes, I'd forgotten about that. Really, he knows Bodie is alive? I never buy that, in any story. I could see not wanted to think of them as dead, or holding in your mind that they have to still be alive. But not into mystical feelings.

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It could be written, but I think it won't work in the last few paragraphs of Chapter 10.

The world of the story needs to make room for it. Maybe Bodie just KNEW where Doyle spent the night. Maybe they always know when one of them is outside the other one's door. Maybe Doyle used to know when Gabe was unhappy and when he was serene. I mean, we have psychic-bond-with-wolf stories. But this one hasn't made the room for this, or else I need a call-back to remember it so I'm thinking, "Aww!" instead of "Oh, come on!"

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gilda-elise.livejournal.com

True. Just look at all K/S stories. It's just taken for granted. But there does need to be a backstory has to how and why the characters have the ability.

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I think it's the whole soul-mate thing, isn't it - that when you're with the one you really love, you have an awareness of them that even extends to a distance, and their absence is like missing-limb syndrome. So if you don't feel like you're missing a limb, then they must be still alive...

I just don't think the author's set up that kind of relationship between them yet... they're getting there, but they're both still uncertain of each other - and in fact Doyle's just resigned from CI5, come to think of it!

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gilda-elise.livejournal.com

Agree. Doyle is so passive in this chapter. I get the impression it's so Gabe comes off as even more a saint. I don't dislike Gabe, but he's too much of an enigma. Other than his time with Doyle as kids, there's not much back story. Yes, he's a priest, but his promotion to the Vatican seems a bit much. We're never told why such a thing would happen to a lowly parish priest.

But back to Doyle. He does seem as if he needs to be guided, never actually making decisions on his own. And the whispering Bodie's name seems over the top. Sort of Harlequin-y.

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I haven't entirely been seeing Gabe as a saint, but he does seem a bit too good to be true - maybe he's a contrast to the "painted angels" that are Bodie and Doyle. He's a full-blooded one... I agree that his promotion to the Vatican is a bit much to accept too - it just doesn't seem realistic, although it's fair enough that he might have done things that deserve it (we do hear about his charity work). He's not been built up in quite that way thought either.

Hee - whispering Bodie's name as he wakes is a bit Mills and Boon! *g* And hmmn - do we hear Bodie whisper Doyle's name...?!

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Bodie whispering Doyle's name is one of the many things Doyle's point of view doesn't allow.

I think if we had Bodie's point of view more often, the impression of Super!Bodie wouldn't happen either. Didn't you say some chapters ago that Angelfish liked Doyle better? What I remember of Bodie's POV is him looking at Doyle. I hope my own preferences in other fandoms (what luck, I like both of them in this one) are not so obvious.

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Yes but we do have Bodie's pov quite alot at the start, and even in the last chapter, when he woke from sleep, so it's not impossible!

I think we have Bodie's pov quite a lot early on - I remember thinking we heard him much more than Doyle at one point, though I don't think we did really, it just felt like that for a while. In theory the story seems as if it's meant to be more about Doyle than Bodie, because it starts of with Doyle's backstory and its his past that we're dealing with for alot of the story - except that Bodie's past is also there, just introduced differently, and actually feeling a bit uneven for me because of if. We do get Bodie thinking complimentary things about Doyle too, but because Bodie seems to have been set up as tougher/more confident etc., they stand out less in contrast...

I always thought Angelfish was more focused on Doyle and so probably liked him better, but someone else said they thought she liked Bodie better, so who knows! And yes, I hope the same thing for my writing! (And I always wonder how I'd measure up to my own comments about stories, too! *g*)

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I have an entire Theory of Bodie's Damage in This Novel, which I have even written out, but it will be spoilery until next Wednesday, so I am heroically not going to type it in now.

It's killing me.

You're right that starting with Doyle's backstory makes me understand him better and therefore have the feeling that I'm supposed to like him better. I don't know that I actually do. As we've said in so many comments, he seems unduly fragile and inexperienced.

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Just found it! I knew there was a word: infantilize........

Edited Date: 2019-05-15 09:53 pm (UTC)

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Lol - that's the one. *g* I remember discussion about the idea of "feminising" Doyle, and how it was really "infantalising", because would we expect women to be treated the way Doyle is sometimes treated in stories (it's not quite that bad in this one, at least!)

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I knew I'd come across it before! Incidentally, the word 'Infantalise' seems familiar to me and rolls off the tongue easily, but whenever I look it up I get the spelling 'infantilise/infantilize' which I don't recognise at all.

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I suspect I just mis-spelled it late at night to be honest - and I went and checked my old dictionaries just to be sure, but they don't even include infantilise, and use -i- to join other endings. Infanta is a Spanish word for "princess", so perhaps it makes sense that it's -i- not -a-! Hey-ho!

It was a really interesting discussion of feminising vs infantilising, though - I believe it was Nell Howell/Istia who pointed it out... All these things I wish I'd bookmarked at the time (though I suppose that wouldn't matter when people just delete their ljs anyway... *sighs sadly*)

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To me, infantalise looks right whereas infantilise doesn't. Maybe I'm thinking of infantacide... I was going to make a joke and say I should know the word infanta as I did my doctorate on the politics of the court of the Infanta Isabella of Spain but I didn't think anyone would believe me. So I didn't.

I don't remember the Nell Howell discussion, I wonder, do you think it might have been on Pros Lit? They had some really good discussions way back.

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I had a quick search through my Pros-Lit files and couldn't find the discussion, though I found a few other people using the term "infantalise"... oh see, I've automatically spelled it that way again... clear my fingers also think it looks right! *g* I looked up "infanticide" in the dictionary too - and that's also spelled with an "i". (And then I forgot to come here and say all this, cos I did it yesterday, just after I read your comment... *headdesk*)

But I think that was where Nell Howell posted most, so maybe my search-fu just isn't working...

I was always sorry that I seemed to have just missed the time of long discussions on Pros-Lit... though we've had some good discussions here on lj too! Why is it that I suspect they can't say the same about Tumblr...?!

I would almost believe in your dissertation, except that I think we've talked about that sort of time in your life before... *vbg*

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I looked up "infanticide" in the dictionary too - and that's also spelled with an "i". (And then I forgot to come here and say all this, cos I did it yesterday, just after I read your comment... *headdesk*)

Is it? That's a disappointment.... I'm determined to find something spelt with an 'a' somewhere

I was always sorry that I seemed to have just missed the time of long discussions on Pros-Lit... though we've had some good discussions here on lj too! Why is it that I suspect they can't say the same about Tumblr...?!I would almost believe in your dissertation, except that I think we've talked about that sort of time in your life before... *vbg*

I suspect your memory's much better than mine but I don't remember discussing my education with you at all! I do remember (I don't think even I'd forget something like that) that I've been lucky enough never to have done a dissertation!

Edited Date: 2019-05-17 04:27 pm (UTC)

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Lol - that's what I was remembering.... *g*

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Oh right! Well remembered. And sorry, my flipping mouse is buggering around and keeps losing bits of what I cut and paste and in my previous reply it should have included that I think Tumblr is a waste of time, even though I tried it once but didn't get very far and it's definitely useless in terms of discussion, which it's probably meant to be.

And Pros-lit..... I think I first started looking at it around 2003/4 and there were already some very good discussions there involving people who seemed to have been in fandom in one way or another for many years. I like both Pros-Lit and LJ but I'm sure if both were thriving now then discussions would get repeated.

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I must admit this chapter threw me out of the story. It is like you said in you comment, I can't imagine that Doyle doesn't remember the house he lived in. And I don't like all the whimpering and weeping. The Doyle I know from the eps and from other stories is a hard Doyle with a soft core, but the Doyle we see here is a very soft Doyle with an even softer core.

Sometimes it feels as if he is schizophrenic, but then he wouldn't have made it through the police or become a CI5 agent. I don't know why the author made him so unsure of himself. I hope she didn't reflect anything of herself into Doyle.

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If I think about any little part of this story too hard, then it doesn't at all seem real...

jat_sapphire said she noticed a big difference in reading it fast all at once, and reading it a chapter at a time. I'm not entirely sure I like it myself! I suppose when we're not talking about it, I can just glide past alot of the problems that arise when I think about them too hard... *g*

This author often seems to traumatise the lads to a huge extent, and I'm not convinced that they could actually be in CI5 with some of the things she's done to them in stories! At least this Bodie isn't constantly having epileptic fits, and Doyle's back isn't locking up at inopportunte moments!

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jat_sapphire said she noticed a big difference in reading it fast all at once, and reading it a chapter at a time. I'm not entirely sure I like it myself! I suppose when we're not talking about it, I can just glide past alot of the problems that arise when I think about them too hard... *g*

I agree. I think I'm much more forgiving or just don't notice things as much when I'm reading the whole story in one go and thirsty for the next page!

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I think we're in danger of reading too much into the statement by Doyle that he can't believe Bodie's dead. Surely he's saying it in the same vein as someone saying ' he can't possibly be dead, I would know !' i.e. he doesn't mean it literally but is expressing his shock and hope against hope that Bodie's *not* dead. And likening it to Gabe's faith in God shows that it *is* just Doyle's faith rather than something more secular like any claim to knowledge or proof.

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That's a good point about what it means to compare Doyle's belief to Gabe's

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Thank you.

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