Reading Room Theme IV - Older Lads Fic - Fire Held High and Away by Miriam Heddy

[starlite876.livejournal.com]

Title: Fire Held High and Away
Author: Miriam Heddy
Link to story or zine/ProsLib info: at the Circuit Archive or at the Hatstand Archive or on the ProsLib CD or in The Bisto Kids zine
Pairing: Bodie/Doyle

The title of the story is explained in the first couple of paragraphs which describes how the person who holds the Olympic Torch must to strike a balance when running and holding the Olympic Torch - that the torch must be held high and away or else the torch bearer would be burnt by the fire.



The story is written entirely from Bodie's POV and begins right after Involvement when Ann has left Doyle. The story then skips forward a couple of years and now the lads are no longer part of the 'A' squad but still with CI5. Doyle is being groomed to be Cowley's successor, while Bodie is working in the training centre, having taking over Macklin's job.

Although the lads are no longer partners on the streets, there are still best friends and rely on each other both at work and off work. When Doyle is stressed and frustrated with dealing with the bureaucracy it is Bodie who tries and cheers him up. Most of the time off work they spend together in each other's company. Although Bodie is bisexual in this story, they are not lovers (at least not at the start of the story).

We see the day-to-day lives of the lads both at work and off work, and the sneakiness of Doyle to orchestrate them into sharing a flat together. The move from friendship into something more is well written and I love the fact that Bodie had absolutely no idea of what Doyle was up to.

But what works for me best in this story is the banter between the lads - sharp and witty, and seem so true to what we see of the lads on screen.

Did this story work for you?

Do you think it is possible that either one or both of the lads would/could be groomed to takeover from Cowley? This seems to be a common premise in many Older Lads stories - for example, the story in last week's review had Doyle second-in-charge of CI5. In other Older Lads stories both Bodie and Doyle are "co-controllers" of CI5. Do you think it would take both lads to do Cowley's job? Or would one lad be more successful than the other, and if so who would be more successful as controller of CI5?

I will most likely not be able to access my computer for the next 24 hours due to the time zone differences and work commitments (I'm on a training course to learn about the thrilling subject of Project Management Life Cycle *snooze* ) so please discuss amongst yourselves and I hope to be able to come back to the LJ and read everyone's comments soon.

Comments

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Excellent introduction and interesting questions there, and you post it all as I am on my way out! I have to say, this story didn't grab me, and I think I know why, but the reasons will have to wait until I am back!

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

See, this, story grabs me, hugs me, and doesn't let me go until I am in a blissful haze...*g*

One of the reasons is very probably that I have a domeistic kink a mile wide, and I love the fact that this whole story is basically these two alpha males locking antlers and taking twelve years of working and eventually living together to wake up and smell the coffee ( I'm cribbing from my own crack-van rec for this..:)

So yes, that's one reason. And the other is as you mentioned, the banter. It fairly crackles off the page at times and feels so very true to how I see and hear them.

Still one of my favourite rereads.

[starlite876.livejournal.com]

I didn't get a chance to reply to your comments this morning before I left for work as I wanted to read your post over at the Crack Van (plus all the other comments). This is a lovely story of the lads isn't it? It's one of my favourites as well.

Thank you for the reminder that there are heaps of Pros stories over at the Crack Van – I don't know why, but I haven't visited the Crack Van for awhile so I am going to have a good look this weekend for stories and vids that I may have missed… *g*

[lukadreaming.livejournal.com]

Thanks for your thoughtful introduction. I enjoyed the chance to re-read the story. I hadn't enjoyed it much the first time around, despite it seemingly pressing a lot of my buttons - older B & D still together and in CI5. It's still not a story I'd go back to often, mainly because I don't 'hear' my lads in the story - the fic could do with Brit-checking, and some Americanisms in Bodie's thoughts throw me out every time. The speech patterns don't quite ring true for me.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

With you 100%... I like the story of the story, but I have to battle with the actual writing a bit too much to be comfortable reading it over and over...

[starlite876.livejournal.com]

Isn't it interesting that there are so many nuances to the English language. Perhaps one of the future topics we can discuss in CI5 is the importance of language to a story?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Ooh yes, it'd be interesting to see what people say... I can guess where various inclinations might lie, but it'd be interesting to see if it fell out that way! Good thought! *g*

Problem with comment being screened

[taverymate.livejournal.com]

Hi J!

I just dropped you a quick email but am trying LJ comments as well since I'm not sure which might reach you quicker.

I'm having a problem posting to this discussion - not sure if might be a CI5hq journal-wide issue or not. I tried to post a comment to the main post here and it came up as screened. I know of no reason why it would be screened. I'm a member of the community and have been since it was created. I've never had any communication with any mod at any time that there was a problem with my posting.

I am logged into LJ, posted under my LJ name, and the post itself is not locked, so nothing there should be a factor.

I also posted a reply to an individual comment (see below) and THAT post came through without screening! So I tried a second time to post my comment to the main post and again it was screened.

I'm absolutely perplexed! Can you tell me what is going on and how to fix it? I'd really appreciate that, especially as I've just gotten back online for a bit after quite some time offline due to personal issues. I'm hoping to be more active in discussion, so this is frustrating.

Thanks!

OH, and the email addy for Josey as mod on the CI5hq profile page came back as invalid.

Re: Problem with comment being screened

[taverymate.livejournal.com]

So after working out the problem on another LJ community, it seems to be an issue with a link in the comment being seen as spam by LJ so they screened the post! It was back in April when LJ set the spam=screened as default for journals and communities.

It appears that CI5hq has the outside, non-whiteboard link=spam=screen comment default still enabled.

Would it be possible for you to change the default to allow linking again without screening? I'd appreciate it, unless of course CI5hq is getting tons of real spam and that's a major problem for you all.

Here is Morgandawn's post with the info:
http://morgandawn.livejournal.com/1157830.html?style=mine

Here's the link to the LJ News post with info on how to change the setting:
http://news.livejournal.com/137436.html

Thanks!

Re: Problem with comment being screened

[starlite876.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this useful information.

I was wondering why my last post to the prosfinder did not show up and why I got a message about my comments being screened.

[starlite876.livejournal.com]

Older Lads together and still in CI5 is one of my favourite genre as well. I must admit that I don't always pick up the Americanisms in the stories because living in Oz we are bombarded by both British and American shows, and our own version of English has pretty much been influenced by both. So unless the Americanisms are really obvious in the story I don't really become aware of them. Next time I re-read the story I must remember to try and see if I can pick up the differences.

Thank you for your comments.

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

"Doyle is being groomed to be Cowley's successor, while Bodie is working in the training centre, having taking over Macklin's job."
I see it different! I think there are hints that both are equally supposed to take over - or not. That Bodie's job isn't a 'dead end'.
Especially because it wouldn't be something Bodie would be happy with on the long run.
"I hadn't responded, too caught up then in realising that I was jealous. I hadn't ever really thought about it much, but I had taken it a bit for granted that Cowley favoured me over the rest."
" A lot like sex, really. Our new positions, mine at least, felt like my sex life as well. A lot of constant low-level activity that no one but myself seemed to appreciate. "

But somehow Doyle is too selfish to notice that, sometimes it is insulting how he forgets about Bodie...("You? Well, mate, don't hold your breath.") – and Bodie is too much under Doyle's spell, to talk about it openly. In fact he doesn't even 'think' much about it.

And there is another strange thing about this story.
The advantage of first time stories should be that we learn more about the thoughts and feelings of the narrator. But strangely enough that isn't he case in this story. IMO there wouldn't have been a difference if it was a third person story.
Nearly ALL of Bodie's thoughts circle around Ray, everything is RAY centric... Caring about Ray. Playing with his moods. Soothing him when HE is afraid of the job to replace Cowley.
Ray..., Ray..., Ray...

Yes, yes, yes – I AM a BB. But I like them equal in the stories. Not a selfish Doyle and a Bodie who soft pedals in everything...
" Who needed a wife when I had him to cook for me, boss me around, and drive me round the twist?"

All in all I think the story is ok! It's true that there is enough banter to hold my attention, but it wouldn't have hurt to put some 'action' into it! I don't mean shootings or something like that, just that 'something' would have happened at all... Maybe it is a bit boring sometimes.

" Clearing the plates away and starting on them myself to forestall another lecture, it occurred to me again that we might well look like a pair of old fairies who'd got bored with the sex bit. I'd run into a few couples like that, too far gone to need to be discreet. "

Is this a so called 'curtain fic'?

Thank you for the rec! :-)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I see it different! I think there are hints that both are equally supposed to take over - or not.
Yes, I agree I think. Or at least Cowley is seeing them as a partnership even though he has decided that Doyle will do one thing best, and Bodie another... I don't feel that we got to the bottom of that part of the story, though.

sometimes it is insulting how he forgets about Bodie...("You? Well, mate, don't hold your breath.") – and Bodie is too much under Doyle's spell, to talk about it openly. In fact he doesn't even 'think' much about it.
What I see in this is that Doyle hasn't forgotten about Bodie at all - instead he's been separated from him, and is trying to do his half of the job alone - and he's nervous about it. We know he's short-tempered from the eps, and it seems very canon to me that he'd snap something sarcastic back at Bodie if he felt deep down that Bodie had abandoned him somehow. And Bodie doesn't really seem to want to do the job that Doyle does, he's too laid back for it, again just as we see in the eps. It occurs to him as well that he and Doyle should be considered together, that if they're thinking of Cowley's job as the "top job" then there's no reason why Doyle should be thought of as more "top" than Bodie himself (especially if he thought Cowley did prefer him really). But we don't hear him sounding cross or bitter about it really because he isn't...

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

The advantage of first time stories should be that we learn more about the thoughts and feelings of the narrator. But strangely enough that isn't he case in this story.
Oh but we do! We learn that Bodie is still as relaxed as ever about doing his job, though he enjoys it and does it well. We learn that he knows just how to twist Doyle himself - and that when Doyle thinks he's working Bodie around to thinking one way, Bodie is already often there ahead of him, just seeing things slightly differently, and from a more relaxed viewpoint. We see from the very first paragraph that this is Bodie recounting how he came to realise something..

In fact, I think the introductory paragraph tells us more than I first realised about this story, and about the way Bodie's mind is working. He says he doesn't believe he has the skill to run a long distance whilst carrying the torch, and that he doesn't really like running unless he has to - that can be applied to two things, not just one. The first, of course, is his relationship with Doyle, but it could also be about his place in CI5. He recognises that he doesn't really like running - that is, the idea of running CI5 himself - that he doesn't have the skills needed to do it forever, though he's perfectly capable of doing it if he has to, again like running. So if CI5 is also "the torch", then Bodie is learning through this fic that he can run with it (stay in the job) but hold it high and away from himself (not be the one who's in control of it) and yet still do what he needs to do and get the job done (continue working in CI5 in his role as trainer, and support Doyle as his partner - and I think that's the role Cowley sees him in too, and Cowley's handling of his "holiday" is as much a test of Bodie as it is of Doyle. They just both need to realise that.)

and Bodie is too much under Doyle's spell, to talk about it openly.
I'm not sure it's a case of Bodie being under Doyle's spell, more that his mind works a different way - he accepted very early on that he couldn't have Doyle, and so it's not occurred to him to try and do so, for instance. So when Doyle realises that it's Bodie for him, Bodie's actually resistant to the idea, through force of habit as much as anything else.

Nearly ALL of Bodie's thoughts circle around Ray, everything is RAY centric...
And that's why Bodie's strength is in the training job he's been given - accurate short-term assessment and training, he just doesn't have the focus that's needed to do Cowley's job. He does know exactly how to bring Doyle down from focussing too much on the job though, and that's where they complement each other again.

Not a selfish Doyle and a Bodie who soft pedals in everything...
Bodie doesn't "soft-pedal" as such, he just has a different focus to Doyle's, and a different approach to the world. As Cowley once said, they're chalk and cheese - completely different, and yet they're also the Bisto Kids, perfect together...

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

I think the introductory paragraph tells us more than I first realised about this story, and about the way Bodie's mind is working

I am so impressed that you gleaned all of this from that paragraph. Because I felt all the way through that despite having access to Bodie's thoughts, I really couldn't understand him. I just wasn't sure what to make of what he told us about his actions at all. For example, pairing Leeds and Radclyffe on the basis of aesthetics? They looked pretty together? ("Pairings had been founded on less.") This is such a patently ridiculous thing to do when teaming people for the field that I felt there had to be a different reason, and yet even with access to what he was telling us, I couldn't be sure.

The torch analogy didn't work for me either. I thought "Ooh, that's a clever idea" at first, and then - well, yeah. An idea, a clever thing to draw a link to, but something that just didn't work for me. And how did the comparison at the end about "The small fire lit the bigger one" fit into it? Was Doyle, the torch, the small fire? The big one the Olympic flame? The flames of their love?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I am so impressed that you gleaned all of this from that paragraph.
Ha - well, I'm just as likely to be making it all up, and MH wasn't thinking of that at all, but then isn't that half the fun of thinking about stories, and "analysing" them? *g*

his is such a patently ridiculous thing to do when teaming people for the field that I felt there had to be a different reason, and yet even with access to what he was telling us, I couldn't be sure.
My reading of that is that of course Bodie had better reasons for pairing them - earlier in that paragraph he talks about how they behaved in training, both distinguishing themselves and showing this and that. To me that was why he paired them, whether he consciously thought so or not - and probably he didn't, probably he acted on instinct and then had to come up with a reason for himself later. No doubt if he was asked why them, he'd simply tap his nose and look all-knowing and mysterious - which would be closer to the truth than any reason he could actually come up with! I think Bodie does work on gut-reaction alot of the time, and is happy replying on that - that's ultimately why he knows he couldn't do, and wouldn't want to do Cowley's job. Doyle, on the other hand, drives Bodie mad by trying to think things through, to analyse, philosophise, double- and triple- think, and that's why Cowley might choose him for the job over Bodie - different skills, rather than unequal ones...

I thought the same as you about the torch analogy every time I read this - until now, when I was wondering what interesting parts of the story might be talked about today! Then I took the time to actually try and work out what it might mean, and came up with all sorts... For instance, the smaller fire could be their usual relationship on the job having lit the bigger fire, their love. Or their work for CI5 as agents having lit their future, the bigger picture of it all...

And in general, Doyle's the flame and Bodie's been holding him too close, so close, as he ran through life, that he couldn't see past what he thought he knew himself and that was what burned him. So he'd let himself be numbed to anything different - in other words it took him longer to realise that Doyle really had fallen in love with him too, and to believe it. So when Doyle ended up thrusting the torch (of his lurrrrve, by moving them in together) into Bodie's hands, Bodie fumbled it and nearly dropped it... If he hadn't been focussing so closely on how he couldn't have Doyle, if he'd watched Doyle from a different angle, perhaps with that analytical part of himself that he usually doesn't bother with, if he'd held his flame a bit higher and further away, then he might have seen the bigger picture of the relay, rather than just staring into the beauty of the fire... Or, you know, summat like that. *g*

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

I really should be working... ;-)
***

"What I see in this is that Doyle hasn't forgotten about Bodie at all - instead he's been separated from him, and is trying to do his half of the job alone - and he's nervous about it. We know he's short-tempered from the eps, and it seems very canon to me that he'd snap something sarcastic back at Bodie if he felt deep down that Bodie had abandoned him somehow. And Bodie doesn't really seem to want to do the job that Doyle does, he's too laid back for it, again just as we see in the eps."
I was talking about the moment when Doyle complains about HIM being tested by Cowley during his holidays. It wasn't yet clear if Cowley would plan something similar with Bodie. Doyle doesn't spend one moment thinking of Bodie – and I don't see Doyle this way in canon! He may be short-fused but he is not that insensitive.

"It occurs to him as well that he and Doyle should be considered together, that if they're thinking of Cowley's job as the "top job" then there's no reason why Doyle should be thought of as more "top" than Bodie himself (especially if he thought Cowley did prefer him really). But we don't hear him sounding cross or bitter about it really because he isn't...
Yes! "It occurs to him…" That's a very good description for what Bodie is doing in this fic. He doesn't contemplates anything, he just 'reacts'

"In fact, I think the introductory paragraph tells us more than I first realised about this story, and about the way Bodie's mind is working."
I don't like such metaphors unless they are very obvious… ;-)
You declaration may be right – but someone else could interpret it completely different – so I don't even start thinking about it… Sorry!

"Nearly ALL of Bodie's thoughts circle around Ray, everything is RAY centric..."
"And that's why Bodie's strength is in the training job he's been given - accurate short-term assessment and training, he just doesn't have the focus that's needed to do Cowley's job."
I don't see it this way. He just takes things for granted and he doesn't need confirmation all the time. He's somehow happy with his job for the moment, knowing there is more to come.
But as I said, those are all my own assumptions – because we don't get enough answers from Bodie himself in this fic.

"He does know exactly how to bring Doyle down from focussing too much on the job though, and that's where they complement each other again.
Yeah – but where is "Bodie" in this scheme of life?

Back to work... Sigh...

[starlite876.livejournal.com]

I think I phased it badly when I said "Bodie is working in the training centre, having taking over Macklin's job." because I do believe that Cowley is also grooming Bodie to do more. But this leads me back to the question that it appears that neither Bodie nor Doyle can takeover Cowley's role and that the job requires both of them to work together.

I'm about to run out the door for work, but just wanted to thank you for your thoughtful comments.

[merentha13.livejournal.com]

I did like this story, mainly for the banter and I'm a sucker for first time stories. It was well written and had some good ideas. But I did have one problem with it. I don't see why, characterized as they are here, Bodie loves Doyle. I don't find much very 'likeable' about the Doyle in this story. He's selfish, sarcastic, quick tempered and self absorbed. (I understand the reasons as discussed above by BSL.) But I don't think the author ever gives us a clue as to what Bodie sees in Ray that makes him love Doyle. Did I miss it?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I think it's just a fandom thing, that we know they love each other for everything we've seen in the eps. We're not told why Doyle might love Bodie either, after all... (though obviously it's in Bodie's pov, so that would have been tricky!) I actually believe it more without any declaration of love from Bodie though - after all, we don't exactly sit around thinking "the reason I fancy Such-and-Such is..." (we just do love them, and appreciate their outward moments/looks etc) and we're so closely in Bodie's head that we're thinking his thoughts with him...

I do see hints of it in the proud-sounding way Bodie thinks about him sometimes:
And, when that failed, the fact that I could put the weight behind a blow aimed with a good deal more training and skill than most didn't hurt any. Ray was still quicker on his feet than me, and, although he wore spectacles to read now, he didn't to shoot, and he was still the best shot on the squad.

or He was muttering and on the floor, sweat on his brow and a charming smear of dirt picked up from his bloody boxes and wiped across his cheek. He looked a sight, and I tore my eyes away before he caught me grinning like a fool. (Why's Bodie grinning if he's not really enjoying himself just being there with Doyle? And having to tear his eyes away?)

or He'd thrown the tie off at the first opportunity and had unbuttoned the first few buttons of his shirt. The hair peeking out was grey, and I looked away, realising I'd started to stare. - Staring again... Bodie fancies him... *g*

...and just... just the way that Bodie so obviously wants to spend time with Doyle, and that his focus is on Doyle - they're comfortable together, they enjoy being together, it's natural... If MH had Bodie list the reasons Bodie loves Doyle for us, then it would have been explanation rather than "showing us" and we wouldn't feel so closely inside Bodie's head as we read...

[merentha13.livejournal.com]

Oh I have no doubt that Bodie does love him. That is real clear in this. I just don't see any reason written as to why he should! You're right, based on fandom we know that Ray does have a few redeeming qualities (*g*). But in this story, he just doesn't show any of them.

(This is when I really hate the time zone differences! I have to run off to work, where I can't access any of this, while you all get to keep 'talking!
Later!

[starlite876.livejournal.com]

I think BSL expressed really well – it just a fandom thing! Even though this story is from Bodie's POV we don't see all of his thoughts process, so yes it is conceivable that we don't get a list of why he loves Doyle. Also I think Bodie has always loved and cared for Ray, first as partners, and then as best friends.

Now I'm really late for work and must run! Thank you for your comments.

[milomaus.livejournal.com]

Reading the comments before commenting makes it real hard to concentrate on the story....
But it´s just so much fun.

I do love this story to pieces, there´s so much love involved, and Bodie is like somebody who would like sth VERY much, but knows he´ll never get it, so when it´s finally presented to him, he goes like: "What? For me? Nah, can´t be true..."

And I sooooo love the way Doyle is contrite about the cherrychocolate episode, it hints, no waves like crazy, that he did sth like that before to Bodie, and that he knows exactly how he affects Bodie with that. He knows that Bodie loves him, or at least desires him, so he plays along and wants to take it further.

And I love the way Bodie get´s a bit mad at him, but can´t stay mad, cause Doyle needs him...
Ahh, I just so love the domestic bliss. And how the reader knows what Doyles up to, even though Bodie still can´t believe it.

I do agree with BSL about the introduction scene, that´s what I thought it explained, too.
Thanks for already pointing it out!

What a wonderful story to be recced, I do look forward to read it again already!

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

The cherry chocolate episode is related to one of my big problems with this story. Food and eating. They're both nagging at each other in this one.

What is this obsession with Bodie and weight? I have one or two dislikes in Pros fic. They include (for example): Doyle as tight-fisted; Doyle routinely taking casual advantage of Bodie (taking deliberate advantage as part of a calculated campaign is somehow okay, though!); and Bodie as constantly on a diet or in need of one.

Bodie's shape changes considerably through the programmes, but I don't think he gains and becomes podgy. If anything, he becomes more trim over the course of the series. Assuming I am watching them in the right order, at least. So why do so many fics go on and on about his weight and weight concerns? And, specifically, chocolate? Does he eat that much chocolate in the programmes? Or even sweet stuff in general? Do men really generally get so excited about chocolate? (Other than as an energy source when in the armed forces and yomping across the Beacons or something.) Throwing stereotypes and cliches around with wild abandon here, I had always understood that chocolate is supposed to be a girlie thing.

Anyway, because I was curious whether it was just this fic I wasn't keen on, or something in the style, I was glancing across others by the same author. And, well.

* Pandora's Box starts off about swiss roll.
* Fancy That starts off with them eating "chocolate rum balls" (plunging to depths of seventies Christmas party buffets that I am glad I never encountered - honestly, I have never heard of anything like these, and I remember the seventies Cordon Bleu party food books) and progresses to "when did you eat the cheddar?"
* The Joy of Camping has more chocolate and scotch (ugh! No whisky drinker should do that!) and Ray considering how Bodie habitually loses weight with Macklin and puts it back on after.
* Losing is an Art gets two screens in before pausing to note that one day, Bodie will have "a real tum on him".

Now, I realise that all authors have their foibles - I have three things on the go at the moment all of which involve Doyle flaunting himself, for example - and I realise that you need background actions to go on with what's going on in the foreground; but there is just so _much_ about people (mostly Bodie) eating chocolate and struggling to avoid weight gain here.

And I can't explain why, but it bothers me more than it should.

[milomaus.livejournal.com]

I count Bodies eating habits as canon, and he get´s teased by Doyle about them.

And why on earth is chocolate supposed to be a girly thing? *g*
Oh, dear, better never come across my brothers saying sth like that!
My father is very much into chocolates, too, as is Mr. Maus. And most Whisky drinkers like eating chocolates with their drink a lot! Some Whiskys are even discribed to have a chocolatey note.
And the way Bodie takes on the swiss roll is definetly on the greedy side. *g*

Eating choclates can truly be sexy.....

I realised the thing about Bodie and eating, too, but lucky me I´m not bothered by it at all.
I think it is a bit sad that you can´t enjoy the story as much as I did, and I hope you´ll find loads of other fics that make you happy.

I´m really looking forward to your stories, you will post them somewhere soon, right?
PLEASE?
Please let me know!?
Thanks for answering to my comment, it really makes me happy to think it was worth reading and some time of yours answering.

[starlite876.livejournal.com]

You've picked up on one of my pet hates as well in Pros stores: Doyle being tight with money and Bodie having an obsession with food. I remember vaguely there was a discussion about this either here in CI5 or in one of the other PROS community. I must see if I can find the link on this when I come back from work tonight.

Thank you for your comments.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Snap!

Ooh, and with the magic of our CI5 Index, might this be the post you were remembering? (http://ci5hq.livejournal.com/42468.html) In fact there are two posts, one after the other, to try and stop the comments concertina-ing - I've not re-read it yet, but it looks like people were interested! Oh wow - except look how long ago it was, 2007! *g* So maybe not the one you're thinking of...

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

Bodie and food, and his weight are definitely a recurring theme (some of it in canon), but much more so in fanon.
We do see Bodie go from having a little bit of a belly, to great shape in Mixed Doubles (Macklin) and back to a bit heavier again, and since food/cholesterol etc. is part of their banter in canon, I don't mind seeing it in stories. It doesn't seem to bother Bodie or Doyle, IIRC, nor does anyone in canon worry about Doyle's weight (apart from Bodie in Stakeout, telling him a "little David" like him can't go knocking out a bigger guy, without calling attention to himself).
Sometimes, in stories, Bodie seems to eat nothing but swiss roll, and full english breakfasts and seeing it over and over again can get annoying.
I've seen some people get almost offended at the mention that Bodie weighs a little more than Doyle and am never quite sure what's so bad about physical differences between them. Maybe we are so conditioned to look at weight and diet that we feel protective of a favorite character/actor.

See comment below re Miriam & "Bodie's Bodies"

[taverymate.livejournal.com]

Rather than repeat the info several times, I put some relevant info into a comment below.

I think that you're conflating the way that Miriam deals with Bodie's body, food, and weight, and how other authors may tackle the same topics.

Problem with comment being screened

[taverymate.livejournal.com]

Well, for some unknown reason my comment below is being screened - NO idea why! Sent off a quick email to the mods, so hopefully that will be cleared up and you can actually read the damn thing.

If it doesn't get unscreened soon, I'll just post it as a reply here and cross my fingers that the comments don't collapse.

Re: Problem with comment being screened

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Sorry, was in bed asleep! I'm glad you worked out the spambot-screening thing though, because this is all really interesting to wake up to! *g*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

The cherry-chocolate thing rings strangely with me in the story too, to be honest, and I can't quite figure out why... We don't see Doyle eating like that in the eps, but that doesn't mean that he couldn't have a fetish for chocolate-covered cherries... I'm pretty sure there were chocolate covered cherries back then, so it can't be that... Maybe it's the way he does it, which I know is all part of his fumbling attempted seduction of Bodie, and it's just not going right at all, so maybe it's that awkwardness I'm feeling...

I'm not sure that chocolate in general is a "girlie" thing - I've known lots of guys who love chocolate! They're not as vocal about it though, and I've never seen/heard any of them treat it in the same way as many women treat chocolate (guilty pleasure/shouldn't-break-my-diet/mustn't-eat-this/hide it somewhere in the house etc), mostly they just get on with eating it, and you can tell they're enjoying it a) cos they buy it and b) cos they look like they're enjoying it as they eat it! *g*

What does bug me in fics is when the lads are given those stereotypically female traits about something like chocolate or dieting or whatever. Men do diet, but they do it in a very different, less vocal way, than women do, from what I've seen. (Same sort of way they use moisturiser etc these days - they just get on with it as a practical thing, rather than talking about it... that said, maybe I've just not heard those conversations since it's a more recent thing - well, except that my ex-, yonks ago in the 80s/90s, used to nick my moisturiser, so not that new... the quantity of choice for them is, I guess, and the openness about it in marketing.... But I digress (who, me?)

So... there are times in fics when I'm perfectly comfortable with the lads thinking about their weight - and actually I was in Fire Held High and Away, because although Bodie thought about it and joked about it, he clearly wasn't angsting about it...) and others when I just want to scream...

[starlite876.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you like the story, it's fun and light hearted and one of my favourites.

Thank you for your comments.

[potztausend.livejournal.com]

I re-read the story yesterday and I still like it very much. I like their banter and the way they act with one another, and I nearly always like first-time-stories with them ;-). It's believable for me and I enjoyed reading.

[starlite876.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you liked this story (this is one of my favourites). Thank you for you comments.

Miriam Heddy's Take On "Bodie's Bodies"

[taverymate.livejournal.com]

Posting this as a separate comment rather than an individual reply to several folks above since it seems like a lively discussion (yay!) and I hate it when comments collapse and links get lost.

Here's where fandom longevity, a good memory (at least for things fannish *g*), and a collector's enthusiasm come in handy.

Back in 1999, Miriam posted an essay at the Fanfic Symposium called "Bodie's Bodies". It was the second essay posted at the Symposium. (The Fanfic Symposium was/is a website that hosted essays by authors on various fanfiction topics. It was active 1999-2006 and the essays remain online and available; there are over 100 essays, IIRC, and many are classics. Still highly recommended for any fan in any fandom, particularly if you are interested in how fandoms change over time.)

I'd urge everyone to read Miriam's essay for themselves, as it's relevant not only to this particular story discussion but Pros discussion in general, and fanfiction in the larger sense.

Bodie's Bodies by Miriam Heddy:
hxxp://www.trickster.org/symposium/symp2.htm

REPLACE hxxp with http - LJ is screening the comment as spam when the full link is used due to CI5hq community default settings apparently. (I need to confirm that with the mods.)


Miriam critiques the tendency that many fanfiction writers, and fen more generally, have to rewrite (on paper or in discussion) male bodies in slash so that they are thinner and ignore the physical reality of the character/actor's actual body.

Miriam's essay is relatively short, and deserves to be read in its entirety (really, it's not that long - go read!). But extracting from an excellent essay, here are a few favorite quotes of mine:

SNIP
"A man who seems familiar to us, like Bodie, falls under the spell of a slash writer, and miraculously, magically, can gets an entirely new body."

SNIP - Emphasis mine, not Miriam's!
"Maybe only thin, strong men with hard toned abs and rippling muscles are sexy. Maybe there's a correlative between taut abdomens and potency. Maybe a Bodie with a belly is impossible.

Perhaps the eroticism would come crashing down under the sheer weight of reality.

In our rapture with the written word, we might forget, for a moment, that bodies are matter. That bodies do matter. Bodies are flesh and blood, skin and bone, tendons and muscles and fat. And ink and pixels, of course."

SNIP
"Sex is more than cookie cutter bodies inhabited by voices and minds. Slash is more than Tab A in Slot B. Bodies, like characters, like personalities, are distinctive, individual, sensual, sensuous, and unique.

As are our stories."

SNIP
"There is pleasure in bodies that are soft and lush and there is an eroticism that is still waiting to be written.

There is a Swiss roll in the middle of the room, and nobody is talking about it. Until now. We may think that we can just make it go away, if we stay silent.

But some of us are ravenous, consumptive, insatiable. Some of us are hungry.

Some of us know that pleasure cannot truly be set free until bodies are.

Until Bodie is.

Until we set ourselves free, remove our stays, and taste the forbidden fruit."


I'd add that over the years, Miriam has posted a number of other excellent critiques of weight, fat, feminism, body image, and fanfiction in various permutations in her livejournal and on other forums and discussion sites. That includes the ways in which female characters' weight/body is treated, which differ significantly from how a male character's weight/body is treated. But weight/body image is by no mean her raison d'etre - Miriam is far from being a one trick pony.

And least anyone think this phenomenon of magically fitter males is restricted to Pros, it's been hotly debated since Star Trek (the original series) over forty years ago.

I'd also add that a related issues is how aging bodies are treated in fan fiction. Particularly relevant to Pros is how Cowley, as an older character with an aging body - with a canon disability - is (mis)treated by writers. But that's perhaps a discussion best saved for another post. *wry grin*

Re: Miriam Heddy's Take On "Bodie's Bodies"

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

That is really, really interesting. Thanks a lot. Now I understand your wording that puzzled me when I saw your first reply, about conflating how this author and other authors deal with it.

I think I would still maintain that people build a lot on that one swiss roll. As I said, it puzzles me why there is all the chocolate and sweet stuff in fanfic. Why not chips, or sandwiches, or meals out in restaurants? So I take it from the essay that she's deliberately making a point by using something associated with indulgence and sensuality. That aspect would probably work better for me if I actually liked chocolate that much myself! - but I do know that most people do.

But even if she is deliberately reacting against a tendency she doesn't like, I'm afraid from outside, not knowing this, it just seemed a particularly clear example of a tendency I don't like!

So the thing that strikes me there is - and I fully expect that this too has been debated to death over the years of fandom, and I'd be astonished if it hadn't - how much knowledge of the author affects how you read a story. Again, something for another day, I imagine.

Re: Miriam Heddy's Take On "Bodie's Bodies"

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

how much knowledge of the author affects how you read a story. Again, something for another day, I imagine.
Oh, please post the question one day soon, I've been pondering about this myself for a while now! *g*

Re: Miriam Heddy's Take On "Bodie's Bodies"

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Thanks very much for the link - and I'm glad you were able to get it into the open eventually! I shall have to go back and browse that forum, I can see interesting discussions arising... *g*

Meanwhile - interestingly, alot of the talk in various ljs/comms over the last couple of years has emphasised how much people prefer Bodie when he has got a bit of a tum on him... I wonder if it is somehow a slight fashion thing, and in 1999 the people around did seem to prefer pared-down-Bodie? Was that more general in society, or...?

I must admit I prefer the lads when they're leaner, but that's personal preference (and I also have a highly developed political sense that men and women can be adored for things other than the current media-led take on what's "attractive" and what isn't, which is generally weight-driven, and my preference hasn't always matched body-types of guys I've dated, so... yeah, I'm pretty sure it's personal preference in my case - but then perhaps everyone says that!)

I have to admit that my growl often goes another way - that whilst women are expected to be thin and thus beautiful throughout life (by women as well as men), men seem to be forgiven their "cute beer bellies" much more easily. And criticism of women in Pros is often along the lines of how "ugly" they are, whereas people tend not to comment on whether other male agents/villains/characters are unattractive (though they might be noticed if they are perceived as attractive - I've seen such comments about van Niekirk, for instance). But that too is a different discussion... *g*

It'd be interesting to compare descriptions of the lads' bodies throughout the 30+ years of Pros fandom - so much to do, not enough time...

Re: Miriam Heddy's Take On "Bodie's Bodies"

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the reminder! I think I haven't thought of the Fanfic Symposium since I lost all my links two or three year ago.

"Miriam critiques the tendency that many fanfiction writers, and fen more generally, have to rewrite (on paper or in discussion) male bodies in slash so that they are thinner and ignore the physical reality of the character/actor's actual body."
" I'm hesitant to offer an explanation, as I'm sure that someone out there has the equivalent of rose-colored glasses and really does, honestly and sincerely, attempt to convey just what she sees on screen. It just happens that she can only see Bodie during that brief period of time during which Lewis Collins was quite unusually thin. She can't really help that, can she?"

Thinking of that, I would say that the advantage of fanfiction is hat we all know what/who we are talking about. Therefore there is no need of too detailed descriptions. Maybe some well known piece of clothing is used sometimes. :-)
The moment they get undressed? Hmmmmm... I really can't say that in most (modern?) stories there is a frequent use of bodily rhapsody. Of course they are lean and strong and they have muscles etc...But why not? They are fit agents! I also have heard more than once that Doyle IS teasing Bodie with his light belly. That they care for each other for being too slim after an injury.
And in older lads stories they have – due to their job – some weaknesses or even handicaps.

Maybe reading, more than seeing, depends on the reader! So if an author describes Doyle as thin/smaller/catlike/fairylike..., I still have MY picture of him in mind while I read the story!
So I can live with such a description – as long as it’s not repeated too often(twice)...

(That doesn’t work with some art, where the artist shows Doyle indeed completely wrong(for my eyes).

So bodily descriptions never have been a big problem for me - as long Doyle isn't the small elf and Bodie the bulky Hulk, and that's IMO very seldom in (modern) stories!

Maybe the symposium had something to do with that? :-)

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

Meant to join in last night then got side-tracked offline... But that's given me the chance to read all the fascinating comments first! I wasn't keen on the story the first time I read it and wasn't sure why, but I dutifully re-read it this week. I still wouldn't re-read it other than for discussion purposes but it was interesting to think about the reasons!!

Like one or two others I am put off by the Americanisms. They really throw me out of the story because they prevent me from hearing our Brit lads talking so the banter and the thoughts don't work as well as they should.

Then, like others, I would prefer more 'action' or at least reference to case-work; I don't necessarily want a shoot-out every time but in a story that is quite long and refers to their roles within CI5 quite a lot I would like more 'show' and less 'tell'.

I am irritated by the amount of time devoted to Cowley's manipulations with no conclusion or follow-up. Why don't we get some hint of what he actually wants? Once the sexual relationship is established the rest of the story is abandoned.

There is some nice writing (phrases like 'secret pornographic fantasy' spring to mind and the paint job in the flat is a lovely touch) but things like the use of the torch metaphor and the food/body shape issue strike me as slightly pretentious and not properly followed through.

I have to say that on this second reading the final sex/love scene really appealed, but the story as a whole still leaves me unsatisfied.

Thanks for the rec and the discussion - it's great to mull over stories in this way and find out why they hit the right notes - or don't - with so many of us!

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

"I am irritated by the amount of time devoted to Cowley's manipulations with no conclusion or follow-up. Why don't we get some hint of what he actually wants? Once the sexual relationship is established the rest of the story is abandoned.
Yes, I agree. That's why I'm not too keen on (some)'fist time slash stories'.
Often you have that phenomenon, that the moment the two are united, there is a big sigh and everything else is no longer important.

I really would like to know what happens next with Cowley's chair!

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

Maybe she meant to write a sequel? But it just annoyed me! So much of the fic was devoted to the matter then it was just dropped! And yes, some authors are just so keen to get the principal 'actors' into bed and make that their final scene...