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ci5hqTitle: THE COOK AND THE WAREHOUSEMAN
Author: Helen Raven
Link to story: http://www.kelper.co.uk/cook/index.html
Warnings: NC-17
The first ships of the alien fleet came into orbit around Earth on Wednesday, September the 7th, 1983, just after 6pm, GMT.
So begins one of the classic AU stories of Pros fandom.
The original discussion thread started here
Review of Helen Raven's source material HOSTAGE TO PEACE by Wally is here.
Please continue!
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no subject
Date: 2009-06-05 06:06 pm (UTC)I definitely was bewildered and had to thumb back through the text to find the passage where they first met. So Ray felt an immediate and intense attraction to Bodie and then went off by himself to plan what he was going to do about it (and perhaps try to get his emotions under control)?
Apparently so. Apparently they met, there was a fierce, instant attraction, and Ray almost immediately began making plans. And again we see that the supposedly more highly evolved Hailin are utterly at the mercy of their emotions. (Hormones?) It's so fascinating.
And perhaps this is why the concept of the higher self is so important to them. Their history does sound like it had some fairly brutal spots.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-05 06:15 pm (UTC)Well for the first time in ages I have read the story. In fact I read this story quite a while ago (nearly a year ago I reckon) as it was recommended in numerous places when I first joined the fandom. So I wanted to add a couple of comments from my rather distant memories of it.
To start with it was, for me, a complete disappointment. Other people have expressed some of the problems with this story in far more clarity that me but here are my main problems.
For an AU to work for me as an AU and not original fiction I first and foremost have to recognise the characters. And as I read through the whole story I could not see Bodie and Doyle in the characters portrayed.
This, I would say, is the single largest complaint about the fic. That Bodie and Doyle are not recognizable.
I remember catching glimpses of recognisable traits but the complete, complex, characters that we know do not show through in the depiction given here. They were, for me, original characters and as I wanted to read B and D that was a complete letdown.
I think most readers seem to want recognizably canon characters in the AU story for the AU story to work.
I do find a mostly canon Bodie here although his long spell of passivity doesn't work for me. Others have offered good explanations for it. I think it would have worked better to cut much of that section or condense it.
The prince is vaguely Doylish, but it doesn't matter because I just love that character. With all his insanity. I do completely believe in his reactions, unfair and illogical as they are...but that's because he's an alien. He can't help himself.
What struck me looking at some of the comments is how even some of the people who liked the story did not see canon Bodie and Doyle, they were appreciating it as original fiction. And that is great, there is nothing better than being able to find a fic and a world to immerse yourself in, but how can it be classed as a Pros AU if you can’t see the characters distinctly?
That was initially a great problem for me with AU. I couldn't see how any AU worked because Doyle and Bodie are such a product of their culture and point in history. But now...if the story entertains me enough, apparently anything goes with me. *g*
The other main problem I had was with the pacing. There was not enough momentum to keep the story moving and to pull my interest along with it. I did read it all, although about half way through I wondered why I was bothering. I kept hoping it would get better (especially as I am a huge sci fi fan) but there was no moment that captured my attention back after it had been lost.
I agree that the pacing goes off at various points. Scenes are skipped over that should be detailed, others are detailed that should be skipped over. At no point did she lose my interest -- although she did irritate me a lot the first time I got through it -- and there are sections I now skim when I reread.
I'm sorry it didn't work for you, but I'm glad you gave it a try!
no subject
Date: 2009-06-05 07:06 pm (UTC)And yet not from all readers - some of us found them very recognisable. I thought that HR did a great job of capturing their essence - who they'd be if they were in those circumstances. It's like reading Larton in some ways, you have to let go of the more obvious character traits, and backtrack (*g*) to what makes them them before specific life experiences get in the way. I won't repeat what I said in the previous thread, but I saw many specific parallels with their canon-selves.
I agree that the pacing goes off at various points.
Again I disagree. The pacing contributed to an overall dreamy, and completely alien atmosphere, for me. The slower parts were entirely reflective of the way Bodie was slowly coming to grips with the new world - it would have been absolutely unrealistic, to me, to have him slam-bam comfortable and competent with everything on an alien planet almost immediately. And if Raven had done that, we would have lost any understanding of the way the true situation crept up on them - on both of them. It wasn't an action story - and I'm very glad...
no subject
Date: 2009-06-05 07:21 pm (UTC)And yet not from all readers - some of us found them very recognisable.
I agree. I meant for those whom this fic did not work, that seems to be the main problem. That they can't find their concept of Bodie and Doyle...and aren't interested enough in these two.
I agree that the pacing goes off at various points.
Again I disagree. The pacing contributed to an overall dreamy, and completely alien atmosphere, for me. The slower parts were entirely reflective of the way Bodie was slowly coming to grips with the new world - it would have been absolutely unrealistic, to me, to have him slam-bam comfortable and competent with everything on an alien planet almost immediately. And if Raven had done that, we would have lost any understanding of the way the true situation crept up on them - on both of them. It wasn't an action story - and I'm very glad...
I think you're talking more about plot than pacing. *g* I'm not saying it needed to be an action-adventure story or that she needed to change the plot at all. I'm talking a structural thing. Pacing. I think certain scenes went on too long, certain scenes were skipped over. I would have liked certain things developed, discussions, dialog in particular. I'm talking about building on what was there, not taking anything away (although I would have condensed the period of separation and developed the period of reconcilation before Bodie decides it's hopeless and resolves to leave the planet).
But this is subjective, of course. You find the story perfect. I don't. But in both cases we love it, which I think is the greatest testimony to her skill.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-05 08:07 pm (UTC)No, I do know the difference, and I'm talking about the pacing. If you speed something up too much - as it were - then rather than creating atmosphere and understanding, you end up with more action in one way or another - or a shorter story - and that creates a whole different piece.
(although I would have condensed the period of separation and developed the period of reconcilation before Bodie decides it's hopeless and resolves to leave the planet).
Yeah, that's the thing - it is very subjective. As with other stories, what some people love, what creates a perfect story for them, others would twist into something different given the chance. Happily, at least the two of us love it as a whole, as you say.
Prince Ray's Guilt Complex
Date: 2009-06-05 06:45 pm (UTC)Doyle the higher being shagging elsewhere and trying to encourage Bodie to do the same so he'd feel less guilty about it.
How does this guilt work with Prince Doyle's devotion to his gods? It seems obvious to me that he knows he's wronging Bodie and betraying his wedding vows, so isn't that a contradiction of some kind?
Re: Prince Ray's Guilt Complex
Date: 2009-06-05 07:10 pm (UTC)Re: Prince Ray's Guilt Complex
Date: 2009-06-05 07:33 pm (UTC)But this is my point exactly. All of what you say is true, but he does feel guilt. He encourages Bodie to go off and do the same thing. Why? Because he doesn't want to feel guilty about hurting Bodie...who has remained faithful to him despite all.
And when Bodie makes up the story about the fake lover, it's clearly a shock to Ray. He hasn't been expecting this. Yet why not? Bodie is glarus. He should be poking everything that moves. Because he's come to believe that Bodie does value their marriage and that Bodie is not an animal. He's started to trust Bodie again.
See, I think Raven was actually trying to nail down something important there. The fact that Ray feels guilt about what he's doing indicates he's awakening to the reality that what he's doing is wrong. That it is wrong to hurt Bodie who is remaing true to their vows. I think the guilt is the beginning of Ray's change in heart. Or mind. His eyes are opening and he's shaking off his ingrained bigotry and bias.
I like the fact that even the more biased members of his family see Bodie more clearly than he does during the period of their estrangement.
Re: Prince Ray's Guilt Complex
Date: 2009-06-05 08:13 pm (UTC)That said (and bearing in mind it's a while since I read it) are we told that Doyle is acting out of guilt in suggesting Bodie go and find someone else? Because I'm not convinced it's a simple as that...
Re: Prince Ray's Guilt Complex
Date: 2009-06-05 08:21 pm (UTC)Re: Prince Ray's Guilt Complex
Date: 2009-06-05 08:27 pm (UTC)Re: Prince Ray's Guilt Complex
Date: 2009-06-05 08:44 pm (UTC)Conscious guilt? No. Because if it was conscious he'd have already noticed that Bodie was more isidrol than he was. That revelation takes time. But what you've described above is simply another description of self-justification. Because if Bodie continues to stay faithful...the end result for Ray is...?
Or we can look at it from another angle. Bodie, glarus, behaves nobly and sticks to wedding vows. Ray, isidrol, breaks vows and boinks everything that moves. We're led to believe that Ray is smart and insightful, so in time...we get what we get which is Ray noticing that Bodie has behaved more like isidrol than Ray has. (Which Ray does admit to the neighbor.)
Re: Prince Ray's Guilt Complex
Date: 2009-06-05 09:24 pm (UTC)People often employ illogical arguments to justify their actions/beliefs. That rings absolutely true given Ray's upbringing/'brainwashing'/personality type. He is bound to have a struggle to change his point of view. The struggle is also bound to be long and Bodie, outside his own society, has no means of finding him once he is 'hidden', thus explaining Bodie's helplessness further.
Re: Prince Ray's Guilt Complex
Date: 2009-06-05 08:35 pm (UTC)Sorry, playing devil's advocate to get the discussion going. It was intended as a question rather than a statement of fact. Does anyone see that behavior as a contradiction? Did anyone have a theory as to what was going on there? Does a guilty recognition that he is hurting Bodie indicate that Ray is beginning to sluff off the indoctrination of his childhood?
That said (and bearing in mind it's a while since I read it) are we told that Doyle is acting out of guilt in suggesting Bodie go and find someone else? Because I'm not convinced it's a simple as that...
Really? How do you read that scene? Why do you think he encourages Bodie to go have sex with others? I admit not many other believable motivations occur to me.
Re: Prince Ray's Guilt Complex
Date: 2009-06-05 08:40 pm (UTC)Sorry, playing devil's advocate to get the discussion going.
Ah - backfired with me then, I was also looking for discussion! Shall see if anyone else responds then...
Prince Ray the Sexual Animal
Date: 2009-06-05 06:59 pm (UTC)I don't feel as strongly as you seem to about Prince Ray's failure to apologise.
The scene where they meet Ray's old neighbour for a drink once more is interesting as the vehicle for Ray to explain how he has completely changed his opinions. He has come a long way in just a few weeks.
And what would he apologise for? Being true to his principles? The difficulty with standing on principles is when people do it at the expense of those who love them, as happened here, and Ray *eventually* accepted that.
To which SC_fossil replied:
I have a huge problem with people who can't apologise. It's common courtesy, and when anybody claims to be so madly in love, it's plain everyday respect. So I do have a big problem with Ray not apologising for putting Bodie through hell. I never thought Ray respected Bodie. Needed him, lusted for him, sure. But otherwise, I think he came across like he was "better" than Bodie.
I think humans require apologies or at least explanations, so Bodie's superhuman ability to just forgive and forget felt false to me (and I didn't enjoy it as a reader). Likewise, since Prince Ray is such a smart bloke, why NOT explain himself and apologize for the hurt he'd clearly caused? To resist doing so seems...contrived. And to notice it's necessary seems not too alert.
As I reader, I feel we don't see enough of his vulnerability to know how much Bodie matters to him. I needed a little more at that point.
Also...we have an interesting foreshadowing when Prince Ray tells Bodie he's not going to apologize for his nature, for being alien. Someone -- one of them --needed to refer back to that discussion and comment in order for the literary parallel to succeed. And I think that was simply an oversight, not a deliberate or subtle resistance to making the obvious point.
Re: Prince Ray the Sexual Animal
Date: 2009-06-05 07:28 pm (UTC)Anyway, I was going to mention that I didn't like "this" Ray from the very first. I liked Bodie and the story idea for the first third. In fact, if it had been a much shorter story I'd have enjoyed it. I liked the idea of the aliens and I was willing to buy into their kind of life and their customes. I was okay enough to this Ray to keep going for a good while.
As to the idea that you mentioned that Ray's not going to apologise for his nature, it's not his nature I want him to apologise for. It's his cruel treatment of Bodie, his prejudice and/or bigotry to somebody "different" from him, whom he thinks is now suddenly an animal merely because Bodie's race has different ways, and his failure to understand that because other creatures are different from him, that doesn't make them animals. He was so irritating to me. I don't see why Bodie liked him. *g* I think it's because I have so little tolerance with somebody like this Ray that I finally had to wave my white flag and admit defeat.
Re: Prince Ray the Sexual Animal
Date: 2009-06-05 07:46 pm (UTC)Right. What I'm thinking, though, is that Bodie should not have to apologize or feel bad for his nature. That while Ray can see the logic of this when it's applied to himself, his logic fails when applied to Bodie. Because basically he's upset with Bodie for being human.
And yet Bodie behaves from beginning to end more nobly and self-sacrificingly than Ray does -- by Ray's own cultural standards. And the prince is too smart not to notice this, so...it would be nice to have a little acknowledgement in there somewhere. A little symmetrical harkening back to that long ago conversation.
I think liking or loving this story definitely depends on how you feel about the prince. Because everything pretty much hinges on whether you can accept or forgive his flipping out.*g*
Re: Prince Ray the Sexual Animal
Date: 2009-06-05 08:26 pm (UTC)I have a huge problem with people who can't apologise. It's common courtesy, and when anybody claims to be so madly in love, it's plain everyday respect. So I do have a big problem with Ray not apologising for putting Bodie through hell. I never thought Ray respected Bodie. Needed him, lusted for him, sure. But otherwise, I think he came across like he was "better" than Bodie.
I totally agree that apologizing when hurting someone is common courtesy.
However, in the context of this fic, I'm not sure Ray's actions required an apology – as, if you take into consideration Ray's cultural history, his psychological, religious and physiological make-up, his actions are totally understandable, even a social norm (they used to KILL the glarus ..).
Ray's inner turmoil about this situation is very evident (If you ignore all the made-up alien vocabulary) :
"Oh, I don’t - There’s no way of… I want you more than, more than…” He paused, swallowed noisily, licked his lips. “I dream about us fucking. Every night. Oh. Every day. But -” Bodie refused to prompt him, waited out the long pause. “The gods know about every single thing I want to do with you, and they… They come to me at night and tell me… that it would be keklinas. That I’d be shunned by the esrulin on all the days of my funeral. And worse. That it doesn’t matter that you want it too.” Now a whisper: “That they know beyond argument that you’re an animal.”….
and later:
… I know it’s not really the gods, that it’s something still left in me. And I’m desperate for it to just fucking go away. Because it’s stupid. Stupid. Stupid. All year, I told it, ‘Look. Look at us. Could you guess which was isidrol and which was the glarus? Can’t you see?’ But I’d still feel, in my dreams, that they were watching me every second. And I had to get the dumut fitted, or I wouldn’t have been able to come near you without…” Another sigh...
If anything, it's surprising that he managed to overcome his severe cultural indoctrination, and chose to continue his relationship ."
I think I would have felt differently about a need for an apology, if Bodie had displayed any real anger re Ray's treatment of him. But that doesn't even seem to be addressed …
If anything, I felt Bodie's lack of any (very appropriate) anger to be quite out of character..
Re: Prince Ray the Sexual Animal
Date: 2009-06-05 08:52 pm (UTC)It's a little inhuman, certainly. Or maybe superhuman.
Re: Prince Ray the Sexual Animal
Date: 2009-06-05 10:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-05 08:01 pm (UTC)Ronitr wrote:
For me too !
Bodie was made a little into a "wife" helplessly waiting for her "husband" to come to his senses, in the meantime living with the in-laws and proving what a "dutiful" wife s/he could be..
I think that after 6 weeks , the "real" Bodie would have had enough of feeling helpless and trapped, and gone to see his prince to kick some sense into him...
I think the lesson here (at least for the prince and his people) is that Bodie is able to behave more like a higher being than the higher beings. But I agree that it's very hard to not apply some earthling parallels to that prolonged period of Bodie waiting it out. Not that I don't like the fact that he waited -- but it was not a stretch of story I needed to see spelled out. As always, I prefer the parts that have the two of them together.
I'd have preferred that part be summed up in a couple of pararaphs and the later sections with Ray developed. Because she chooses the opposite -- to cover a lot of ground with Ray in a couple of paragraphs -- I find it an odd choice from a technical standpoint. And then, personally, I was just disappointed because I wanted more of Ray and Bodie together.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-05 10:42 pm (UTC)Riffing off *g* BSL's ideas in Part I:
How could the Hailin scientists have missed the fact that Humans mate differently from Hailin? Well, partly because on the surface, they don't. On Doyle's planet (forgotten it's name!) just as on Earth there are couples who don't actually stay together, people who sleep around, people who have children and those who don't.
I think that when people criticise the Hailin for deciding too quickly that humans are isidrol, they miss a fundamental issue - we humans continually interpret reality according to our own biases, so isn't there at least an argument that an alien species would do similarly?
If a scientific party from another world started to examine how human society worked, I'd expect them to make a lot of errors initially based on their own preconceptions. They could easily incorporate a huge amount of wrong-finding based on sampling of things like chemical attraction/lust, mythology, religious teaching or cultural media depictions of relationships.
"Coming of Age in Samoa", anyone?
IIRC human mating behaviour was far nearer to Hailin norms than that of any of the non-isidrol species they'd come across previously. Therefore their researchers were biased in favour of an interpretation of humans as an isidrol species. They interpreted non-permanent relationships as being like the non-addicted one between Ray and Gavio, and permanent relationships as isidrol ones.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-06 12:00 am (UTC)Hey there! I agree that a convincing argument can be made here. Granted, we are talking an entire race -- not just an isolated culture -- and do we know how long the Hailin were observing Earth?
But either way, yes, it's a reasonable argument.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-06 12:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-06 03:00 pm (UTC)*Splutter!*
no subject
Date: 2009-06-08 08:38 am (UTC)TCATW and Helen Raven fiction
Date: 2009-06-05 11:44 pm (UTC)Maybe here can be commented the same as to some other novel length stories: that they could be better or easier to grip edited.
Having thought about HR's fiction in general for this RR topic and with rereading her fic 'Transients' lately I think that for me, like many other have commented, it is neither fan fiction nor even an AU. And in my opinion that is to say of all her pros fiction.
She is able to make emotional psychological conditions vividly tangible in great detail in a way I've hardly experienced with any author I've read so far. And only if you're prepared and open to her topics and such an experience, you'll enjoy the reading, if enjoying is the right term here for some of her fics in the first place.
In her introduction of Heat Trace she'll gives a warning, that is probably useful to an extend for every of her stories:
"“Heat-Trace” is not light reading. I wrote it for myself, and I like a serious wallow (as long as there’s a happy ending of some description). Don’t tackle it if you’re in the mood for something relaxing to read in the bath at the end of a hard day. "
On the one side that is geat as many readers find her fiction who would never get it otherwise. On the other side she has many readers who can't cope with what she's delivering. And do rightly commnet that it's too far away from canon.
I adore this and some other of her fiction and the author, as she's courageous to write her very own topics and style.
Thank you for another great discussion!
Re: TCATW and Helen Raven fiction
Date: 2009-06-06 07:52 am (UTC)Well - not rightly, because there are those of us who think she's got the canon-lads down pat... It depends what you're looking for as "canon-lads", I think...
Re: TCATW and Helen Raven fiction
Date: 2009-06-07 10:39 pm (UTC)Although I like to follow discussions I find it very difficult do decide and discuss what a character would possibly do = in character or not do = out of character.
Like you said this also depends on what the reader is looking for. How much freedom is allowed to the author to develop plot and character from the original material.
How much of the evidend characteristics must be included?
More importat for me is though if the character is believable and also complex as a human being as such.
I also can't see that ONE in-chacter-Bodie b. e., because every author creates his own version. My reaction is more like: "Oh, I like THIS Bodie or THAT Doyle!"
Re: TCATW and Helen Raven fiction
Date: 2009-06-06 03:18 pm (UTC)She is able to make emotional psychological conditions vividly tangible in great detail in a way I've hardly experienced with any author I've read so far.
I was thinking about this last night. There's a fascinating blend of repression and passion. When it works, it really works. And I think it works here beautifully.
It works less well for me in Heat Trace (although parts of that fic are so powerful and memorable) because her characters are all slightly "off" in their emotional responses and there's no AU universe to explain or support that dysfunctionality.
And only if you're prepared and open to her topics and such an experience, you'll enjoy the reading, if enjoying is the right term here for some of her fics in the first place.
Not an easy read, for sure!
In her introduction of Heat Trace she'll gives a warning, that is probably useful to an extend for every of her stories:
"“Heat-Trace” is not light reading. I wrote it for myself, and I like a serious wallow (as long as there’s a happy ending of some description). Don’t tackle it if you’re in the mood for something relaxing to read in the bath at the end of a hard day. "
*g*
On the one side that is geat as many readers find her fiction who would never get it otherwise. On the other side she has many readers who can't cope with what she's delivering. And do rightly commnet that it's too far away from canon.
That seems to be the majority opinion, although I think any time you're dealing with AU -- especially with a spec fic AU -- the characters are going to veer sharply from canon. Especially in something like this that I think transcends its genre.
I adore this and some other of her fiction and the author, as she's courageous to write her very own topics and style.
Ah, what a good word for her work. "Courageous." Yes.
Thank you for another great discussion!
Thanks for joining in!
Re: TCATW and Helen Raven fiction
Date: 2009-06-07 10:46 pm (UTC)I did read Heat Trace from her HTML version and didn't get that warning. o_O
I wanted to like this one
Date: 2009-06-06 01:24 pm (UTC)I can see what other people see in the story - it's not like some stories (Anne Higgins' oeuvre springs to mind) where you wonder what on earth people see to like. However, once I'd spotted the skeleton, the flesh ceased to interest.
Re: I wanted to like this one
Date: 2009-06-06 02:55 pm (UTC)But isn't this sort of true of all spec fiction? That the contrast between the world we know and the world of the writer's imagination should serve to advance plot and illustrate character? Otherwise isn't it just elaborate world-building as flexing of literary muscle? Everything we write should be going to the end of advancing plot and building character. There are no random acts of writing. *g*
Or maybe that's not true in fan fiction, but I don't think of this as fan fiction exactly. Or if it is, it's a work that could be somewhat reworked and published professionally. Then again, I don't see what you do about the world-building as merely a device for conflict. I think HR was, if anything, lost in this world she created -- that it was intense and real for her.
I can see what other people see in the story - it's not like some stories (Anne Higgins' oeuvre springs to mind) where you wonder what on earth people see to like. However, once I'd spotted the skeleton, the flesh ceased to interest.
That's a different take on this one. I'm glad you read it, though!
Re: I wanted to like this one
Date: 2009-06-10 03:54 pm (UTC)It would have worked as a new-built world if the focus of the plot hadn't been the relationship - but it was, and the whole thing was too pat for me. We are different from humans in way A and ooooh look way A just fits into angst slot B.
Perhaps if it had been less well written, I wouldn't have minded.