The Reading Room – Mere Anarchy by Rebelcat - Part 2

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

shooting2kill  asked if we could open a new post so that it's no longer necessary to expand all answers.

And I don't hope that it's all over  - now we have started this new post!

Please copy and past the part of the comment you're replying to, if it's from the first post
Thank you!

Rec for Mere Anarchy / part 2

Comments

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh jolly good - hmmn, maybe we could start the second part off by asking what other people think of the point you raised about Bodie's actions in killing one of the gang just after Doyle has untied him? The man was no longer a threat, and with all the evidence around would presumably have served a long sentence for his involvement in it all - so Bodie really committed murder, albeit he would probably argue extreme provocation/emotional disturbance etc. But while there was disapproving/worried talk in the earlier thread about this being a rape fic (even though the rape isn't portrayed in the story, and the story is about the aftermath rather than what actually happened during the rape), no one seems shocked at Bodie's brutal murder of the man. Is it really something that readers pass over in the story, or accept, or even approve of? There's often approval of Bodie for being dark and dangerous, and capable of this sort of act - why does the crime of rape seem to worry people so much more than the crime of murder, especially when the latter is committed by one of "our" characters?

[snailbones.livejournal.com]

Ooh looky - more space! ::jumps back into the fray::

Good question! I hadn't even thought about it - I guess for me it's the difference between raping somebody, which is something I can never see any excuse for, and murder as an act of justice. Plus, I just like Bodie being dark and dangerous, and Doyle being equal to that.

But this is me talking without thinking *g*

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

"I guess for me it's the difference between raping somebody, which is something I can never see any excuse for, and murder as an act of justice. Plus, I just like Bodie being dark and dangerous, and Doyle being equal to that."
I agree.
And we're not watching/reading some kind of comedy - it's crime and violence...
And we enjoy it.

Yes I can live with Bodie's act.

Another case was a story about a year ago here in LJ - but sorry I don't know author or title.
B+D had to protect one of their undercover agents, they were attacked, Doyle badly injured, and Bodie killed their fellow agent to save Doyle.
That was IMO something Bodie wouldn't have done - and Doyle would have never excused it!

Does anybody know it?

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Well done Firlefanzine and thanks for this thread.

Slanted, you've got in just before me but I thought I'd lob this into the discussion, anyway...... I was going to extend something touched on earlier which I thought might be interesting to look at a bit further and get views from as many people as posssible and that is the question of what makes a superior piece of writing, superior? What are the perceived or necessary requirements for it? Is it possible to be objective about this or does it always end up being a subjective thing? I think Jgraeme suggested longevity as one possiblity and also that it was almost too subjective to arrive at any kind of consensus (or maybe that was you, BSL? I can't remember)...anyway, I thought that was an interesting question and hopefully not too wide for this particular discussion? I don't think I would suggest that the staying power of any writer is an indication of how good the writing is but just how popular they are, for whatever reason......If we are being subjective then I think, for me, it's the power of the writer to move me and to involve me with the characters to the extent that I actually feel I've become a part of *their* world and when I've finished the story I miss them terribly and it's like a kind of loss.....that's just part of what I think makes great writing, great and I think it's a real talent which is able to inspire that in the reader. Arguably.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Nipping in one time before I'm out for a lot of the evening... *g*

Yes, it was me who wondered if perhaps the idea of a "superior" story just came with too much baggage - what individuals want from a story, whether something like portrayal of emotional depth overcomes the writer's technical ability, or vice versa, what emphasis is placed on such different facets by a reader... As you know, in Pros I'm driven mad by Americanisms that throw me out of a story - but even so I subconsciously seem to balance these against other things, such as how well the characters are drawn, whether I empathise with them and otherwise believe in them - if they're too far from "my" version of the lads, then those Americanisms will tip me out, but if everything else is working for me, then I can frown but carry on...

So really I think it depends very much what individuals see as a "superior" story... I like your definition above though, and I think that for me it's the same - I want the power of the writer to move me and to involve me with the characters to the extent that I actually feel I've become a part of *their* world and when I've finished the story I miss them terribly and it's like a kind of loss..... But then I know other people say that they don't like feeling that affected by a story when it comes to an end, especially if there's a particularly melancholy bent to it all...

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

There's often approval of Bodie for being dark and dangerous

I'm not sure it *is* approval but maybe more a kind of sneaking admiration? And if that is the case, then why that would be, I'm not sure. Maybe people admire his ability to cut off and just *do* what he thinks has to be done? Uncomplicated ethics? Or his honesty? Or maybe it's the age-old fascination for the darker, edgier side of life as in bad news is often more interesting than good, the evils of history are often remembered more than the good things, tyrannies are more fascinating than 'successful' models of democracy blah, blah, blah.....dunno, really.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh I'm going to be late, but this is irresistable thinky-ness! *g*

Doesn't sneaking admiration imply approval though? Hmmn...

I wondered somewhere tucked away in the other thread if there was a similarity with rape-as-fantasy, which is a very common sexual fantasy, and totally divorced from the real world - it's about allowing the fantasist freedom from consequences rather than wishing for actual rape. Maybe the approval of Bodie's violence in being able to avenge himself so quickly, so permanently, comes from a similar fantasy - the temptation for revenge in such situations, where we don't have to consider the actual greyness of the world, in that the rapist isn't a real person with a real background, and his death/punishment won't have any repurcussions (legal or mental) upon Bodie/the wronged... Whereas people wouldn't approve of it in real life for just those reasons? (Although of course there are people who do seem to genuinely believe that would be a just punishment)...

the age-old fascination for the darker, edgier side of life
Oh, which deserves much more attention than I can give it here - darn it, late! I must get changed! - so will have to wait and see what everyone else says! *g*

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

I sometimes think that while women in RL might prefer a guy who is more sensitive and kind for a relationship, in fantasy a man like Bodie (confident, arrogant, dangerous, take them and leave them) is a lot more exiting to think about than your every day dependable guy.
Maybe a little bit of the "I would be the one who could make him happy and he'd stay with me, pin down that bad boy and make him happy and good" fantasy?
Not sure if I'm explaining this right.

[greengerbil.livejournal.com]

Erm... I've been thinking about that incident, as well, and why I accept it in the context of the story.

The best I can come up with (and I'm lousy at this sort of analysis - ack!) is that it's effectively a 'crime of passion'. Bodie is still in shock when he does it, he's still reacting to the rape, and he's emotionally and mentally unstable. When a gun comes into his range, he uses it almost without thinking - he's just reacting. It's not cold-blooded murder, in fact to me it doesn't feel like murder at all - although it's not self-defence, it feels like 'retrospective' self-defence... and I know, that doesn't make sense. Sorry!

I haven't posted my reactions to this story yet - I liked it, on the whole, and I felt that rebelcat had the personalities of both the lads and Cowley down pat. It was nice to see Dr Ross being used properly, and again I thought that rebelcat had her nailed character-wise. It was a good story about the aftermath of rape, and I found the way that Bodie came to terms with it, and the way Doyle came to terms with Bodie and with his own reactions, was very believable.

What I didn't like - the Americanisms,which I think someone else has commented on. Doyle deciding that Bodie needed a 'cuddle'...and the hot milk thing.

That made me blink a bit! Not a major point, but still... I think the dialogue goes something like, 'you can't have alcohol because you're on medication, and you can't have coffee, it'll only wake you up, so you'll have hot milk...' Not only could I not see Bodie drinking the stuff, I couldn't see Doyle making it for him either. I'm sure they'd have made do with tea, personally. It's canon, after all!

But those are pretty minor points. On the whole,I enjoyed it, and I will definitely read it again.

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

Yes I feel the same about Bodie's act!

'cuddle' is an Americanism? What would be the right term?

And of course tea would be very British! But Bodie likes milk, and maybe Doyle learned it from his mother to make hot milk if someone feels bad...?

I'm glad you like it! Thanks for commenting!

[heliophile-oxon.livejournal.com]

I've been enjoying snatches of the discussion between work, and it's really
interesting - I had a few things I wanted to say, but lj/the ether/my computer ate the comment I started the other day!

I like this story a lot - I find it satisfying in almost every way; Ross and Cowley and Murphy are spot on, I think, and well used - especially Cowley using Bodie's ordeal for the purposes of the case while genuinely - if incidentally - using the interrogation to help Bodie at the same time. The balance between humanity and compassion and ruthless purpose in Cowley is a fine one, and I think this story works well on this front. I also thought that using Ross' notes and observations to show us what is going on with Bodie at the beginning works perfectly well - it doesn't ring artificial exposition bells with me at least.

But what I really liked was the B/D relationship, Ray finding this in many ways so much harder to deal with than mayhem and injury. And Bodie is vulnerable - as when he very emphatically Does Not Cry, on the couch in the night - but his reactions feel surprising and that helps make them convincing, I think (such as his great delight to be going back to work, after waking up with Ray). He is traumatised - and I agree that he shoots one of his attackers while in a state of shock - but he is traumatised in his own way; angry and disoriented rather than rendered helpless by what happened.

I think even the cuddle and the milk work, oddly enough - they don't throw me out, anyway; part of this story is the way both of them are disconcerted and thrown by what has happened so maybe I'm more up for odd bits of behaviour than I would otherwise be! I'm sure Ray's been told milk is what one ought to have in these circs, just as he knows alcohol is out *g*, and I get the feeling that he says cuddle deliberately, not because it's his usual vocabulary but in order to make a particular point - he's very determinedly not taking it easy on Bodie, because he knows Bodie doesn't want/need that, but as what Bodie really needs is contact and closeness Ray takes the route of baldly and unadornedly telling him he needs it and deliberately doesn't try to spare his pride.

I was slightly disappointed by the ending, though - it felt slightly chopped-off to me, and slightly too jokey; the tone didn't quite match the rest of the story. Can't have everything, I suppose!

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

For me the perfect summary!
Exactly what I would have said - if I would have found the right words...! :-)
I even agree with the weak end. It was the only part that disappointed me a bit.

Thank you!

[heliophile-oxon.livejournal.com]

Guess we were thinking alike, then! This is a great rec for the Reading Room, I really enjoyed re-reading it.

And this whole thing has got me re-looking at loads of stories, thinking about which ones I like best and why .... and there are some amazing fics out there. So yay for the Reading Room and all who Read in her!

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

Finally had a chance to catch up and reread this last night. I'd forgotten how much I enjoy how Rebel writes the lads. I thought she got Doyle and Bodie just right - especially Doyle and his reactions to the aftermath, and his dealing with a prickly, hurting, off-balance Bodie - that scene at night, with the calf massage, when Doyle stops him leaving on some half-arsed revenge mission? Just perfectly realised. And the cuddle thing? Not a word I have an easy time with in m/m fiction, but here it worked a treat because Rebel undercut it beautifully, with her almost patented brand of humour-under-fire: "Yeah, you are. You don't want sex. What you want is…" Doyle paused thoughtfully. Then, very deliberately he said, "What you want is a nice cuddle." [can see the glint in Ray's eye from here, as he's trying hard to get the balance between them right again]

Bodie felt his jaw drop. This was entirely too much. He was not going to stand here and be patronized by Ray Doyle. It was humiliating was what it was.

"I do not need a fucking cuddle!" he snapped. Brilliant! Works fine for me. And that 'cuddle' that follows is spot on too.

I had a few reservations about the Africa flashback with Krivas and the boy Bodie put out of his misery, etc, as unnecessary and maybe a little cliched, but then Rebel worked it in to the final interrogation scene, which I'd forgotten about, so that Bodie's 'Ever seen someone fucked to death?' [I'm paraphrasing] became truly chilling, his catharsis more convicing. Bravo.

So yes, a terrific read, and I'm grateful to this new club of ours for giving me the chance to go back, enjoy it again, and read through everyone else's thoughts here.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's exactly how "cuddle" worked for me in this story - it was biting, it was sarcastic, it wasn't meant as a straight line at all! Doyle was taunting him with it - daring him to cope with the way he's feeling!

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

*jumping and dancing for joy*

And it seems that the cuddle-affaire is satisfactorily(satisfyingly?) solved by your explanation! :-)
"[can see the glint in Ray's eye from here, as he's trying hard to get the balance between them right again]"

What do you think of the end?

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

What do you think of the end? Actually, I think she found the perfect phrase to conclude it with.*g*

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Thanks for your interpretation of the 'cuddle' remark which makes sense. I can never hear bodie and doyle using words like that and when I read it in this particular story it threw me to the extent that I almost lost faith in the writing, which, up to then, had been spot on, particularly in terms of characterisation, so looking at the word in that new light makes me feel much happier!

[magenta-blue.livejournal.com]

Just wanted to say what a great discussion going on above re: superior writing! So many valid and interesting points. Touching on that, I would question the term 'superior' just because the word itself sounds pretentious, a sneering 'I am the best' type fic! So I'd say 'good writing' just to keep me happy *g* So what makes good writing good for me? A love of language, a feel for story-telling, an ear for dialogue and the power to engage with me as a reader. By engage I mean the ability to open the rabbit-hole and let me fall inside for a while, and sod the real world.

As a reader I don't set any store on longevity, I do from a love of fandom history, but I wouldn't rush to read something that was written in 1980 purely on the basis it was written so long ago. Speaking generally, I think us fans are hoarders - we store all our fiction, good or bad, as probably for so long there was none, or it was so hard to get your hands on. So for us a fic that has been around for a long time doesn't mean the same as a published book that has stayed on the bestseller list - it just means we throw nothing away. *g*

Going back to Mere Anarchy - I really liked this fic the first time around. Going back to it (and is rebelcat's website down? Keep getting error messages...) and yes, it's still a good read. Someone raised an interesting point that we don't have pity for Bodie as he has none for himself, and I like how writers can manipulate readers emotions. When it works, it is very good indeed, especially as it mainly works on a subconscious level. Sympathy though, I have in buckets full - for both of them. And yet the banter is there, and works and I like the cuddle / hot milk thing, for the same reasons as Callistosh and BSL set out above.

The only bit that didn't work for me was how quick Bodie was over it. These lines:

Bodie rubbed his hands together, gleefully. "He's pulling us in!" If this morning could get any better, he didn't know how. A nice long kip, the mucky bits in his mind nicely sorted and shuffled back out of sight, waking up with Ray in his arms, breakfast, and back on the job.

Bodie decided he must have been a very good lad, at some point in time, to have earned all this.

... made me cringe a little. I'm glad Bodie is feeling better but 'if this morning could get any better he didn't know how' and him being a very good lad - after everything he has been through, it seems like a very quick/finish the story! fix indeed, and as such doesn't work for me.

Just my tuppence *g*

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

Just wanted to say what a great discussion going on above re: superior writing! So many valid and interesting points. Touching on that, I would question the term 'superior' just because the word itself sounds pretentious, a sneering 'I am the best' type fic! So I'd say 'good writing' just to keep me happy *g*

Absolutely.

So what makes good writing good for me? A love of language, a feel for story-telling, an ear for dialogue and the power to engage with me as a reader. By engage I mean the ability to open the rabbit-hole and let me fall inside for a while, and sod the real world.

Yes to all that. What I'd love to get into (and maybe this isn't the forum) is how certain writers achieve that. Because it's not universal. Some folks, do it. Some don't. But how? Why is that?

As a reader I don't set any store on longevity, I do from a love of fandom history, but I wouldn't rush to read something that was written in 1980 purely on the basis it was written so long ago.

Right. Again, age itself isn't the criterion. It's whether something is still popular beyond its expected shelf life. Some of Ellis Ward's stories continue to be popular although most of the writers in the zines she originally published in are not. So is that luck or is there something different in Ward's work?

Test of time isn't that something old still exists. The older something is, the more likely it is to be forgotten or dismissed, so stories that stand the test of time are stories that defy the odds. Everything ages, so in itself, getting old is no achievement. *g* Although I guess some folks could successfully argue that!

Speaking generally, I think us fans are hoarders - we store all our fiction, good or bad, as probably for so long there was none, or it was so hard to get your hands on. So for us a fic that has been around for a long time doesn't mean the same as a published book that has stayed on the bestseller list - it just means we throw nothing away. *g*

Right. Again, age is not what I'm talking about when I speak of the test of time. Does anyone remember Sheryl Adsit, Shelia Willis, Oriel, etc.?

They published prolifically back in the day, but I don't see their work cropping up on anyone's Best Of lists. Whereas some of their contemporaries continue to be enthusiastically recced.

So my point is that authors like Sebastian, Ellis Ward, HG...appear to have passed the test of time, whereas many of their contemporaries (most of their contemporaries) have not.

This is where the idea of classics come in. There are plenty of old films around, but we don't consider them all classics. We don't consider them all worth study...or even DVD rental. They are low priority in film preservation by those considered to be expert in such things.

[magenta-blue.livejournal.com]

Yes to all that. What I'd love to get into (and maybe this isn't the forum) is how certain writers achieve that. Because it's not universal. Some folks, do it. Some don't. But how? Why is that?

For me, this would be half technique, half subjective. A writer can get a lot right just by paying attention to the technique - proper sentence construction, proper use of grammar, how to research, how to show not tell, how to kill adverbs *g*. And after that - well, it's what appeals. But saying that, if we are all of the opinion (say) that we all like Sebastian's Et in Italia Ego - then this passes a grand subjective test, doesn't it? So then assuming she has ticked the boxes with technique, then we all like the idea of B&D discovering each other in Italy. Even that doesn't cover half of it. We'd have to dissect what exactly it is about that fic that gets the subjective so right (another Reading Room date *g*)

Right. Again, age itself isn't the criterion. It's whether something is still popular beyond its expected shelf life. Some of Ellis Ward's stories continue to be popular although most of the writers in the zines she originally published in are not. So is that luck or is there something different in Ward's work?

I don't actually re-read Ward's work that often, if at all. But I do remember the one where Bodie was a computer salesperson and Doyle had a haunted house. I remember it even if I rarely re-read it, as she painted a complete picture of that AU, and it passed all my checks - love of language, a feel for story-telling, an ear for dialogue and the power to engage with me as a reader. Yet why do I rarely read it? Probably as there is little time, and there are other stories that hit all those buttons more - I guess then the subjective thing kicks into play. As for others at the same time - I don't own a lot of zines - who were the other authors, do you remember?

Does anyone remember Sheryl Adsit, Shelia Willis, Oriel, etc

Who? *g* Did they write Pros?

I get what you mean by 'test of time', and the answer I would say is that (broadly) everyone has their own version of my four checks, which roughly mean the same for all, and if a fic passes those then it passes for everyone. After that it is how much people like the subject matter... *g*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I can't get into Rebel's site either... hopefully it'll be back up soon!

I agree with you about the word "superior" definitely - it can have something of a patronising tone to it I feel... And it's assuming that there is such a thing that can be defined as "superior" for everyone...

after everything he has been through, it seems like a very quick/finish the story
Hmmn, I dunno - I thought that a big part of breaking through his block was realising that Doyle needed help too, and sort of letting himself turn outwards from his own issues and think of someone else to some extent... I don't he necessary had properly got over it though, I think that's just what he was telling himself - fooling himself a little that everything was over and he was okay now, "the mucky bits" tucked away in his mind - because although he then goes on to confront Burgess, and he's also realised that he doesn't have to kill him to have real revenge - that the power Burgess claimed through raping him wasn't really real power at all - that he holds the real power by working for CI5 - Doyle still has to point out that after half a day's work he's ready to fall down, and he still can't actually sit down...

[magenta-blue.livejournal.com]

Yes, good point - I can see how his realisation that Doyle also needs help, helps him. Even with that though, it's the way these two sentences are written: If this morning could get any better, he didn't know how and Bodie decided he must have been a very good lad, at some point in time, to have earned all this - to me they just jar completely with what has happened to him only a few days ago.

Ah - so you too with Rebel's site? I hope it comes back, I always thought it was a real nice design.

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

I agree with you about the word "superior" definitely - it can have something of a patronising tone to it I feel... And it's assuming that there is such a thing that can be defined as "superior" for everyone...

I suppose so. Although I don't think Shooting2Kill meant it to sound that way when she initially used the term.

Rebel's pros site

[cloudless-9193.livejournal.com]

FYI: Rebelcat has moved her site to

http://rebelcat4.tripod.com/pros/