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Well done Firlefanzine and thanks for this thread.

Slanted, you've got in just before me but I thought I'd lob this into the discussion, anyway...... I was going to extend something touched on earlier which I thought might be interesting to look at a bit further and get views from as many people as posssible and that is the question of what makes a superior piece of writing, superior? What are the perceived or necessary requirements for it? Is it possible to be objective about this or does it always end up being a subjective thing? I think Jgraeme suggested longevity as one possiblity and also that it was almost too subjective to arrive at any kind of consensus (or maybe that was you, BSL? I can't remember)...anyway, I thought that was an interesting question and hopefully not too wide for this particular discussion? I don't think I would suggest that the staying power of any writer is an indication of how good the writing is but just how popular they are, for whatever reason......If we are being subjective then I think, for me, it's the power of the writer to move me and to involve me with the characters to the extent that I actually feel I've become a part of *their* world and when I've finished the story I miss them terribly and it's like a kind of loss.....that's just part of what I think makes great writing, great and I think it's a real talent which is able to inspire that in the reader. Arguably.

Edited Date: 2009-03-07 04:23 pm (UTC)

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There's often approval of Bodie for being dark and dangerous

I'm not sure it *is* approval but maybe more a kind of sneaking admiration? And if that is the case, then why that would be, I'm not sure. Maybe people admire his ability to cut off and just *do* what he thinks has to be done? Uncomplicated ethics? Or his honesty? Or maybe it's the age-old fascination for the darker, edgier side of life as in bad news is often more interesting than good, the evils of history are often remembered more than the good things, tyrannies are more fascinating than 'successful' models of democracy blah, blah, blah.....dunno, really.

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byslantedlight.livejournal.com

Nipping in one time before I'm out for a lot of the evening... *g*

Yes, it was me who wondered if perhaps the idea of a "superior" story just came with too much baggage - what individuals want from a story, whether something like portrayal of emotional depth overcomes the writer's technical ability, or vice versa, what emphasis is placed on such different facets by a reader... As you know, in Pros I'm driven mad by Americanisms that throw me out of a story - but even so I subconsciously seem to balance these against other things, such as how well the characters are drawn, whether I empathise with them and otherwise believe in them - if they're too far from "my" version of the lads, then those Americanisms will tip me out, but if everything else is working for me, then I can frown but carry on...

So really I think it depends very much what individuals see as a "superior" story... I like your definition above though, and I think that for me it's the same - I want the power of the writer to move me and to involve me with the characters to the extent that I actually feel I've become a part of *their* world and when I've finished the story I miss them terribly and it's like a kind of loss..... But then I know other people say that they don't like feeling that affected by a story when it comes to an end, especially if there's a particularly melancholy bent to it all...

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byslantedlight.livejournal.com

Oh I'm going to be late, but this is irresistable thinky-ness! *g*

Doesn't sneaking admiration imply approval though? Hmmn...

I wondered somewhere tucked away in the other thread if there was a similarity with rape-as-fantasy, which is a very common sexual fantasy, and totally divorced from the real world - it's about allowing the fantasist freedom from consequences rather than wishing for actual rape. Maybe the approval of Bodie's violence in being able to avenge himself so quickly, so permanently, comes from a similar fantasy - the temptation for revenge in such situations, where we don't have to consider the actual greyness of the world, in that the rapist isn't a real person with a real background, and his death/punishment won't have any repurcussions (legal or mental) upon Bodie/the wronged... Whereas people wouldn't approve of it in real life for just those reasons? (Although of course there are people who do seem to genuinely believe that would be a just punishment)...

the age-old fascination for the darker, edgier side of life
Oh, which deserves much more attention than I can give it here - darn it, late! I must get changed! - so will have to wait and see what everyone else says! *g*

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I sometimes think that while women in RL might prefer a guy who is more sensitive and kind for a relationship, in fantasy a man like Bodie (confident, arrogant, dangerous, take them and leave them) is a lot more exiting to think about than your every day dependable guy.
Maybe a little bit of the "I would be the one who could make him happy and he'd stay with me, pin down that bad boy and make him happy and good" fantasy?
Not sure if I'm explaining this right.

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"I guess for me it's the difference between raping somebody, which is something I can never see any excuse for, and murder as an act of justice. Plus, I just like Bodie being dark and dangerous, and Doyle being equal to that."
I agree.
And we're not watching/reading some kind of comedy - it's crime and violence...
And we enjoy it.

Yes I can live with Bodie's act.

Another case was a story about a year ago here in LJ - but sorry I don't know author or title.
B+D had to protect one of their undercover agents, they were attacked, Doyle badly injured, and Bodie killed their fellow agent to save Doyle.
That was IMO something Bodie wouldn't have done - and Doyle would have never excused it!

Does anybody know it?

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I understand you! :-)

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Erm... I've been thinking about that incident, as well, and why I accept it in the context of the story.

The best I can come up with (and I'm lousy at this sort of analysis - ack!) is that it's effectively a 'crime of passion'. Bodie is still in shock when he does it, he's still reacting to the rape, and he's emotionally and mentally unstable. When a gun comes into his range, he uses it almost without thinking - he's just reacting. It's not cold-blooded murder, in fact to me it doesn't feel like murder at all - although it's not self-defence, it feels like 'retrospective' self-defence... and I know, that doesn't make sense. Sorry!

I haven't posted my reactions to this story yet - I liked it, on the whole, and I felt that rebelcat had the personalities of both the lads and Cowley down pat. It was nice to see Dr Ross being used properly, and again I thought that rebelcat had her nailed character-wise. It was a good story about the aftermath of rape, and I found the way that Bodie came to terms with it, and the way Doyle came to terms with Bodie and with his own reactions, was very believable.

What I didn't like - the Americanisms,which I think someone else has commented on. Doyle deciding that Bodie needed a 'cuddle'...and the hot milk thing.

That made me blink a bit! Not a major point, but still... I think the dialogue goes something like, 'you can't have alcohol because you're on medication, and you can't have coffee, it'll only wake you up, so you'll have hot milk...' Not only could I not see Bodie drinking the stuff, I couldn't see Doyle making it for him either. I'm sure they'd have made do with tea, personally. It's canon, after all!

But those are pretty minor points. On the whole,I enjoyed it, and I will definitely read it again.

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Why am I not surprised? ;)

I personally don't go for the bad boys, even in fantasy, but it's a very prevalent thing, and not so good in RL, where I've seen plenty of this kind of thing.

Sometimes I wonder if the times and what RL men are like in general, have a little bit to do with what we ladies wish for.
In the age of less aggressive, kinder and understanding men that help with housework and cooking and such (well, *some* of them), women (not all, of course!) are talking about missing a "real" man.
When all we had was "macho men" who didn't lift a finger to help after coming home, or were hanging out with there mates at the pub most nights, the wishes were more geared toward another kind of guy?

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Yes I feel the same about Bodie's act!

'cuddle' is an Americanism? What would be the right term?

And of course tea would be very British! But Bodie likes milk, and maybe Doyle learned it from his mother to make hot milk if someone feels bad...?

I'm glad you like it! Thanks for commenting!

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'cuddle' is an Americanism?

No, sorry, that was my bad stream-of-consciousness writing. 'Cuddle' is a perfectly good English idiomatic word, it's just not one that I'd associate with Bodie or Doyle - except when they were taking the piss out of each other, eg. 'aah, does poor wittle diddums want a cuddle, then?'

I've always considered 'cuddle' to be almost-but-not-quite baby talk, used by and for children or between lovers, but definitely not between rough tough macho blokes. The adult term, for me, would be 'hug'.

Of course, other people might use it all the time - everyone has a slightly different vocabulary!

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I know - now the whole womens lib community will stone me - but I don't think that Bodie and Doyle are too bad machos! :-)
The way they treat their girls in Mickey Hamilton? Stupid women who deserve it!
Bodie would never treat Susan that way! And Doyle cooks for Ann Holly. And when he tells Bodie that Ann can't cook, Bodie doesn't frown or something like that, he laughs about it.

I don't know if killing that rapist is a 'macho' thing. I really could imagine that everybody could do it, given the opportunity and the gun...

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Yeah, I was more going on about why there is approval for "Dark and dangerous Bodie" in general, and not so much about the killing in this specific story.

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I was going to extend something touched on earlier which I thought might be interesting to look at a bit further and get views from as many people as posssible

Well, that idea went down like a lead balloon, didn't it! Thank Christ *one* kind soul responded to it i.e. *you* - otherwise I'd look a *total* plonker.

But then I know other people say that they don't like feeling that affected by a story when it comes to an end, especially if there's a particularly melancholy bent to it all...

I suppose that's why it will probably remain a subjective thing....*maybe* it's possible to decide what is (objective) 'good'/superior writing e.g. Booker prize winners but separate that category from writing which we actually enjoy? Hmmm......

Edited Date: 2009-03-07 09:00 pm (UTC)

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Is that 'Love lies bleeding'? or 'Law lies bleeding', something like that. can't remember the author though.

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Doesn't sneaking admiration imply approval though? Hmmn...

The two concepts might at times overlap but no, I don't think they necessarily have to imply each other. I can have a sneaking admiration - or even envy - for people who can drink 10 pints in a row or the men who got away from the Great Train Robbery but it doesn't mean I actually approve of those actions.

Maybe the approval of Bodie's violence in being able to avenge himself so quickly, so permanently, comes from a similar fantasy - the temptation for revenge in such situations

Yup, I agree, hence the popularity of films like the Death Wish series....I think the concept of an 'eye for an eye' is completely understandable and just as understandable as the concept of 'turning the other cheek' and perhaps more understandable than weighing up the pros and cons of the reasons why an assailant has decided to commit some kind of unimaginable act towards someone else.

[On a slightly different note, I wonder why the subject of rape is always such a popular one for discussion? It never seems to fail!]

Edited Date: 2009-03-07 08:24 pm (UTC)

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Oh, yes! I've come across that fantasy before and your secret's safe with me....and everyone else here!

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Perfect! Love Lies Bleeding by Shoshanna.

Thank you!

What do you think about it?

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sc-fossil.livejournal.com

Hmmm. I've actually read the word "cuddle" in at least a dozen Pros stories. Hug is different. When they're in bed, wrapped around each other, that's cuddling. I don't see it as "un-macho". Hug is more like something quick, whereas snuggling down together is cuddling. But I do see either of them using it in a more light hearted way than in the middle of some awful situation. Then I'd rather see one or the other just initiate the action.

Funny about the Americanisms. I can't tell you how many Sentinel stories I've read with British words in them since there is a huge block of British writers in Sentinel. It's never once bothered me other than to maybe roll my eyes or shake my head. It wouldn't send me out of a story like other things would. Sure, I wonder about their beta, but there are so many other things to a story. On that point, I'm easy-going.

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very well-written. very bleak. it's clear in the story, I think, that Doyle is very unhappy with Bodie - as he would be. And Bodie's a soldier and ex-SAS, he would have been trained to achieve the mission no matter what the cost... no, I really can't see Bodie doing that either.

Really, really well-written though!

I read it when I'm depressed... *g*

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I have to admit that Bodie is not my fantasy man ( I prefer Doyle as a man, but like Bodie very much), and I was just trying to pinpoint what *might* play a role in the attraction Bodie presents.

Not sure if that's actually the case. :)

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well, I did say 'between lovers'! *g*

No, I agree, when they're in bed snuggling down together they are 'cuddling', and I can see them using the word with each other in that context. It just jarred me at that point in the story, because it isn't a word I would expect Doyle to use in that situation.

As to Americanisms... I can cope with them in an otherwise well-written story - like this one, I did say that it was a minor point - and if they're in the authorial voice I really don't mind them. It's when the lads use them that I blink a bit, especially if the writer has otherwise got their speech patterns correct, simply because it - well, it jars. I'm hearing Bodie or Doyle in my head, and then suddenly - I'm not.

Edited Date: 2009-03-07 09:54 pm (UTC)

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