All about the B/D sex...

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

So there's a really interesting discussion in a couple of places on my flist, about sex in Pros stories, only I've just realised that both the entries are locked, so that not "everyone" can join in, so (completely without the permission of either of my mates because we're all on different schedules - do email me if you want to shout at me!) I thought I might pose the question here as well...

What do you think of sex in Pros stories? How do you react to it/treat it as a reader/writer?

One thing I wondered, as I was commenting to someone was I wonder if "newer" Pros writers are approaching Pros fandom differently to some of the older writers, who were writing in a time where something like Pros slash was more of an escape, and was a really underground thing to do - so we were perhaps seeing the way these (mostly) women were talking about their sexual fantasies etc for the first time..? Which openness we tend to take more for granted now, and so treat differently? Although of course time blurs, and not everyone's at the same personal stage as their surrounding society... and of course I might just be talking complete rubbish and have a very odd view of the emergence of womens' sexuality... *g*

Hmmn - anyone fancy whiling away some time talking about the lads having sex? *g*

Comments

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

When I came to Pros... First of all I had to throw away some beloved prejudices:

"No Sex Please We're British!"
and
"Americans Are Prudish!"
... :-)))))))))))))

(but now off to work..., I'm looking forward for this discussion...)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Lol - glad to hear it! But from what I understand, people in the UK and USA (Canada and Australia and NZ?) didn't talk openly about sex - particularly what women like, and the idea that women might like to see two men together. It certainly wasn't in any of the "women's mags" when that I read in either Aus or the UK (or the US ones I read), and although I don't buy them now I'm not sure that's changed. So I get the impression that women publically enjoying sex is still... only accepted in certain contexts. *g* And women enjoying two men having sex? Pretty much still underground unless you know where to look on the internet? Maybe? What's it like in your part of the world then?

[hambelandjemima.livejournal.com]

Ha! Just as I was thinking I really ought to get showered and dressed and do something constructive with my day....

My first reaction was to say that I always seek out a story that has sex in it but while that was true when I first started to read fanfiction, it's not the case so much now. I don't like reading a sex scene just because it's expected in the story - it has to be part of the story for me to enjoy it. It's the same when writing. I think I have a bit of a reputation for not skimping on the details but if it doesn't fit in the story it gets left out.

I feel that I've become more enlightened in recent years, but whether that's the result of me getting older or of me being more informed I couldn't say.

There's lots more to say. I'll give it some thought. *sigh* The things we do for fandom ♥

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Why do I start these things when I have a whole day of work in front of me?! Still - piece of work - comment - piece of work - comment - tea break - comment -comment -comment - piece of work... *g*

I always seek out a story that has sex in it
I think that's what I did mostly - not seek it out perhaps, but appreciated it more, and to some extent I still do. I suppose I like to think that the lads' relationship is at that level as much as anything else, although I also think a good sex scene is a good sex scene. *g* Now I also know that I like stories that even claim to be "gen" stories, but to me have that extra depth of relationship about the lads, even if they're not actually having sex - LRH Balzar springs to mind, for example. What alot of people call "pre-slash".

I feel that I've become more enlightened in recent years
Is it being enlightened, or is it just having experienced that thing now, and wanting to experience something else, I wonder..?

It is awful, thinking about this all day... *g*

[squeeful.livejournal.com]

Oh be still my nerdy heart! :-D

I think it's still very much used as an expression of personal fantasies (always makes me wonder what people think of me once they "know" me so intimately!) but it's use like that is more acknowledged. Which is pretty much what you said, no? Forgive me, it is late and I am ill. So, what's your odd view? ;-)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh no, don't be ill! And yeay nerdy discussion! *g* It's been too long since the last one!

My odd little view... *g* I like to read that the lads are having sex, and I like to read the details (as long as they're written in a way where I can imagine them, rather than just as someone telling me what's happening, if you know what I mean). But then I've liked reading about sex since I was fairly young - oh the joy and glee that there were people who'd thought of writing about the sex B and D were having, and of sharing it with people! Yeay! thought I, when I first found slash - and also here are women being open about it all, and having a good time, and just... yeay!

And you're right, I think we do acknowledge, just by being here that we're talking about our fantasies etc, and that's what gives the writing and reading the passion that it has - because it is about our desires, of whatever kind and nature (and not necessarily, perhaps, the ones that we're more obviously showing (ie, the whole rape-as-freedom-from-constraints in fanfic rather than being rape-as-power-struggle in reality)

In fact, come to think of it, that's really interesting... I wonder how it works for people who say they're not here for the sex, but who do write sex into their stories anyway because they real they should "for the readers" - and how do those sex scenes work for the readers? (Not sure how we could answer that one, without someone who's in that position jumping in... *looks around hopefully*... or maybe there isn't anyone like that...

Or - people who worry about the technical writing of the sex scenes - does that make any difference? Do we get the same passion from those sex scenes? Or do we just get technical weakness from people who don't worry about what goes where and how many arms the couple end up having..? I know that I (now!) quite like writing a sex scene into a story (if it works as part of the story), and I enjoy fiddling with it, and I can only leave it in if it feels like passion to me - but that doesn't mean that it'll feel like passion to anyone else...

Hmmn... *g*

[erushi.livejournal.com]

Oh, you. And here I was about to start my day being productive! (And of course I'm not going to shout at you. The more replies to read, the better! *g*)

I wonder if "newer" Pros writers are approaching Pros fandom differently to some of the older writers

Hm. Interesting. I think sex in fiction always harbours some element of escape and fantasy, however small or large said element is. However, I think a different sort of "openess" may be attributed to the change in trend, though. Not so much openess about female sexual expression, but about homosexuality.

I feel that there is a wider understanding right now that homosexuals are people, just like you and me, like most other men (or women) about save for a couple of preferences. Because of this, readers/writers might come to expect something a little more natural, more blokey.

Unfortunately, this sort of understanding and acceptance only really started to grow in the recent decade. Much older writers/readers, probably not having much to go by, may thus place it in a more familiar setting which they, at least, can understand, e.g. feminising of one male character. (Plus, crude as this may sound, you could even say that it translates well, as it was unfortunately very wrongly presumed for a long while that homosexual would equate effiminate.)

So yes, That's my two pence. Off to be productive now, and thanks for starting this discussion here too!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh good - hoped you'd think that! *g*

Not so much openness about female sexual expression, but about homosexuality.
Ah, but wasn't that what was happening 30 years ago, when slash was first "starting" only for women? It was finally being acknowledged that women were "real" people too, and therefore had desires and needs, and that it was okay for them to talk about it out loud? Only it didn't happen all at once, it happened gradually over 30 years, so surely what we see in fanfic is a reflection of where different women were in that process? Jane might be a good example of that - I always think she explains things like "it isn't okay to say that a woman dressing a certain way is looking for sex" as if she's just worked it out herself and wants to tell everyone. And then she also tells people that "it's okay for two men to love each other" in the same way...

See I wonder if the "feminisation" is as much to do with writers empathising (not MarySueing, that's different) with one particular character, and therefore having them react in a way that they might react to things - or have things happen that they'd like to happen... Again, less a conscious "writing" thing - "I am writing about" as unconsciously putting their own passions into their stories... (I think it was above to Squeeful that I was wondering about that)

[heliophile-oxon.livejournal.com]

wish I wasn't rushing off out! will check out discussion later - looking forward to it!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh I know! I'm desperately and in a tiny screen trying to talk about this while at the same time working properly as I'm supposed to be! I do hope people are around later on, after work, as well!

[biani.livejournal.com]

When I came from X Files to Pros it was like a culture shock for me. Where in XF about 90% of the stories contain/or end with anal sex writers in Pros seem to favour frottage. So my first impression of the fandom was pretty much "mixed". That was not the only thing that I found a little strange at first and I wrote a post about my impressions and compared both fandoms: http://biani.livejournal.com/564265.html.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh, interesting... I can't go and read your other post now (I'm at work - why didn't I wait to start this, it's all so gooood!) but it's so interesting! There is alot of frot in Pros, but because I don't read other fandoms, I have no idea how it compares, so... I will come back, I promise!

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

Came for the sex, stayed for the stories... True Fact!

I first read fan fiction when I was into BTVS. Primarily Buffy/Spike, but not necessarily. I liked fic by people like bluebell and sandycat (Addictive Stigmata - anyone remember that site?). Plot plus sex - loads of it. Dark, twisted, angsty.

I found Pros sites (pre-Circuit make-over). I remembered watching the show, but wasn't sure who was who. Got the DVD's, read the fic = hooked completely. Joined Pros-Lit, read back in files and searched the internet for history ('cos I'm bent that way). Saw writings about the subversiveness of fan fiction, the way it emerged as an expression of female sexuality and creativity. Made sense to me.

Joined and read lj comms. Found great folks, some who thought like I did, others who (shock!) didn't.

Still like to read sex. Oral or anal, please, with a side salad of power play. It's not wrong to want that, surely? Is there a new morality in town or something? I must have missed the PSA.

I just wish I could write the stories I love to read :(

[magenta-blue.livejournal.com]

Came for the sex, stayed for the stories... True Fact!

That pretty much sums me up as well *g*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

It's not wrong to want that, surely? Is there a new morality in town or something? I must have missed the PSA.
Well I don't think it is... *g* (what's a PSA, though?!)

I tend to assume that the people who say they don't want to read sex in Pros, or they're tired of it, or it's all just slot A&B to them are maybe just... and for whatever reason, bored as much with Pros as with the actual sex in it - maybe they've moved on slightly, but don't quite want to let go, but are expressing a dislike of the thing that is most different for them now - the difference between their original love of the passion, and their current boredom with it? So I tend to put it down to personal preferences rather than any real attempt at moral judgment, even when I see other people agreeing with them. And I wonder if they were ever in quite the same fandom as me in the first place...

Now there's a thought - I suppose there are different "fandoms" within fandoms, even when not explicitly defined as such - people who like "harsher" fic, people who like "softer" fic, people who like it all and read it for the sex, people who like it all and read it for the emotions, people who... you know... *g* Never mind the people who say they like one or the other of the lads best, particularly if they tend to disparage one at the cost of the other... And then the non-B/D set (B/C, B/M... how come it's generally B/ in those cases, I wonder?!)... and then people who seem to not care who the pairing is, as long as they can write slash of someone... Hmmn...

[magenta-blue.livejournal.com]

Sex in Pros stories - I think when I was starting out reading I was like the more the merrier! Twas a feast of naughtiness, especially when reading at work making my internet screen all small so I could quickly click over to spreadsheets. My poor mind was very confused... and Doyle grabbed Bodie's... *click!* minutes of meeting 1.a discussion of *click!* ...Doyle's balls.

But actually, reading wise, I guess it depends if I am in the mood! (sorry fic, I have a headache *g*) It depends on how well the scene is written, if it is necesary to move the story on, or enhances the story, and whether I guess if there is a plot behind the panting and groaning. Someone somewhere said 'emotional porn' (been jumping about LJ very quickly and cannot think who to attribute that to - think it was on erushi's LJ) - brilliant description - that really sums up what I like from ff. The back story appeals just as much as the physical side, its the whole package I generally enjoy. Ahem. Packages? *shuts up*

As for writing sex scenes - hee. Hee! My fic is nearly all case driven, and I enjoy twisting in subtle slash with that, as that is what I think suits the story. If I wrote a story where I felt a sex scene was needed, then I'd like to think I'd be ok with it, but my general enjoyment of writing in Pros is more subtle than graphic. That could change, you never know. ;)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

*eyes window made all small so that I can click over into tables and .txt files instantly...*

See, sometimes I can be in the mood just to watch them have some good,fun, sex - maybe a sort of ficcish hug that something's alright somewhere in the world? And others I want adventure-y plot, and others I want something more emotionally challenging, and in general if a story's got it all (Helen Raven is a grand example, and maybe M.Fae Glasgow) then I'll be a happy bunny whatever mood I'm in...

I think stories tend to be sort of "weighted" one way or another though - as you say, tend to be more "plotty", or more "emotionally" or whatever... And whatever it is, for me all the scenes have to fit together rather than be added for the sake of it...

Actually, in the same way I generally hate that fade-to-black thing. In some fic it works, but in others it's like you've been built up to some great emotional pay-off, which is going to come in the culmination of sex (if you'll excuse me phrasing! *g*) and then... nothing! Aaaargh! And it can happen even in the non-sex bits of stories - where an author describes to you what's happened, but doesn't actually show you it happening... Everyone does those sort of missing scenes now and then, but some stories seem to have something missing in every single paragraph - whether it's sex or some other part of the plot. As if the writer's rushing to get to the end, or skipping over the awkward bits or summat...

"emotional porn" is kind of good... what does it mean exactly though - that there has to be reason behind the sex? Emotional investment? I'll go with that! Well, except for the fun little PWPs like Gun Play or The Perils of Priapism - although even there I find there's emotional payoff...

[bistokids.livejournal.com]

Emotional porn - liking that! Sums it up beautifully. For me, the erotic content of sex between these two comes more from the set-up than from what they actually get up to - give me a position of enforced vulnerability (which can be anything from one of them capturing the other's hands, or even a telling remark), the right kind of smouldering look from Doyle, the right kind of increased breathing from Bodie, and I'm pretty much there! (Well no, not there - there in a hooked-in kind of way!)

I don't particularly get off on two men together as a general concept any more than I get off on man/woman - it's the specifics of two powerful, dangerous (and obviously drop-dead gorgeous) men meeting on equal terms - if one is less equal, how that has come to be must be established in the story, and then I'm a happy bunny (handcuffs yay! :D). For me, and this is just how I react, feminisation of either character turns me right off. I tend to struggle with full-on BDSM for a similar reason, although when someone gets this balance right that can be the hottest fic.

I've described my reaction before as sex=danger=sex, and I think that stands. (TBH, I find that scene in Fugitive where Bodie's being manhandled around by the Germans as erotically charged as a graphic description of Tab A being inserted into Slot B. All that power contained...*shiver* *off to happy place*)

[draycevixen.livejournal.com]

Well, I was going to respond but I see you already typed up my notes BK. You are too kind to me. *g* ♥

I also wanted to add that one of the people who posted was making an interesing distinction between foreplay and penetration when she was talking about sex scenes and really saying that it was the penetration part she really didn't need in detail... I'm paraphrasing a mate here, always dangerous ground so I hope she'll rap my knuckles if I have that wrong.

To me it's all sex. I don't require that sex scenes be penetrative because that's not a particulary accurate reflextion of homosexual sex anyway, despite what the media might want us to believe. What I was saying, over at that friend's LJ and trying to use *her* terms, was that I'm not overly interested in the penetrative scenes (her definition of sex) because by that time the participants are usually pretty much past the point of talking anyway and most writers end up resulting to the "fade to temporary unconsciousness" ploy anyway.

Yes, I really love a well written sex scene, but then, as said, I'm including foreplay in *my* definition of sex.

[lukadreaming.livejournal.com]

I won't say no to a smoking hawt sex scene, but with Pros I find that I want there to be that air of danger between the two of them. Oh, and a damn good plot to the story *g*.

When I started reading Pros, it did feel empowering to find writers like Kitty Fisher and Helen Raven writing explicit sex scenes and portraying strong characters. There never seemed to be a lot of pre-slash stuff in Pros, and what there was was very well-written, but made me want to shout 'get on with it, already!'

I've only ever read in two fandoms -- Pros and Primeval. The latter is obviously a tiny fandom, but it has a far higher proportion of explicit stories than Pros did. If you want filth (and some damn good stories), then Primeval's your fandom *bg*. But it doesn't have what's generally seen as a OTP like Pros does.

I wonder if younger writers in newer fandoms feel obliged to write Tab A into Slot B scenes, even if the stories don't need it!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I can go either way with the idea of danger between them. In general I want there to be some air of danger, that's what makes things readable to me (tension? something that needs resolving? A puzzle!) but I can also go with the curtain-fic-ish, cosy-type Pros stories as well, which... I suppose are reiterating the emotional aspect of things, rather than challenging it. Hmmn - kind of the equivalent of a hug, I guess! *g*

But yes, plot! It takes a really special story to be all about the relationship without also showing us how the relationship fits into their world, which generally means there needs to be plot of some sort. Otherwise fic seems like it's just talking about it all the time (and my head does enough of that by itself!)

I wonder if the Primeval fans might be younger in general as well as it being a younger fandom? So that they're all about personally playing with the excitement of explicit, whereas older fans might have experienced that already, and be looking around and past it? (Although I personally still like the explicit at times... *g*) But I don't think explicit necessarily has to equal slots A and B, does it? Surely there can be explicit that includes all the slots, but is more than that? (I keep coming back to the idea of the passion of a story...)

[empty-mirrors.livejournal.com]

I prefer plot, tbh, and will read a long plotty gen* fic more happily than a shorter, smutty** slash fic. Sex in a story should be there to do something, or it becomes repetitive and frankly boring, however well written.

My least fav type of story is the first time-y, fall in love-y, really just an excuse to gush and make the lads have sex. Having said that, I think that's the structure that says more about sex in slash fiction than almost any other. And please excuse me if I go off on a tangent here.

A *first time* story, in my experience, mostly ends with the lads screwing *properly* for the first time - and by *properly* I mean anal intercourse. Any sexual contact up to this point is seen as somehow lesser (Lawks, I hate generalising but it's a pattern I've come across all over slash fiction). To me, that shows the inherent heterosexist assumptions still prevalent within the genre - that intercourse is the only *real* sex. The reality is that many homosexual couples never have anal intercourse and yet enjoy completely fulfilling sex lives.

Okay, so, whenever I come across a story that is a thinly veiled excuse to get the lads fucking - and I've written them myself, so I'm hardly one to condemn out of hand - I'm always left with the question of why. Why write this story? It's not about pure sex - if it was, it'd be a PWP. And there's not enough plot in it to fill a thimble let alone an episode, and Pros is hardly known for its complexity in that direction. So the obvious answer is that it's an emotional kick that's wanted, rather than a sexual or intellectual one. This is reinforced by the fact that even in stories where the lads are fuck-buddies, the emotional first-time is still regarded as a first-time. Thus what role does the actual act of sex - mostly anal intercourse - actually serve? For that, I'd say we need to turn to other examples of this type of writing - Mill and Boon or Harlequin, and their antecedents.

Years ago, the final scene in those books was the walk down the aisle - think P&P as an example. This was the model that women aspired to (and again with the generalisations. Apologies). Of course slash fiction posed something of a problem in that area - to whit, for same-sex couples, marriage wasn't/isn't an option. Thus the final scene became rewritten into an emotional commitment which carried the same weight as marriage - at least in the minds of the authors.

Let's think about when the first slash fanfic was being written. The 1960s. Yes, the era of the sexual revolution, but the still, the truth for a lot of women was still that they were expected to remain chaste until marriage and only bad girls did it before they had a ring. Thus, what greater commitment could there be than to give your virginity to a lover. In the case of slash fiction, the act of anal intercourse - and dear lord doesn't that sounds clinical.

Today, the baggage is less. Women are expected, mostly, to have had sex before marriage, often with multiple partners, and sleeping around no longer carries quite the same social stigma. And yet the desire for emotional commitment remains for a lot of people. Interestingly, though whether the two are directly related I couldn't say, the way of expressing it in heterosexual romance novels now tends to echo that in slash fiction. Now the final scene in a Harlequin or Mill and Boon is likely to be an emotional first time, - or the first time actual intercourse takes place, though this is less common. But still that emotional connection is found in the bedroom. There is no fade to black, no discrete averting of the gaze. The sex is written out in full - often badly - and the emotional connection is iterated and reiterated during the act.

The same thing can be said for stories that include bonding or other supernatural ways of joining a couple together, and although such relationships do often include sex, they also sometimes don't. In fact some writers will argue vehemently that although their characters spend half the story wrapped round each other, kissing and sharing various bodily fluids, they are not writing slash. Maybe they aren't, but the bonding serves the same function in their stories as sex does in this genre of slash fiction.

[empty-mirrors.livejournal.com]

Whereas once the altar provided the backdrop for our happily ever after, now the counterpane does. But the reason for it remains the same. The reinforcement or affirmment that there is more to this relationship than just sex, or just an arranged marriage.


So, to finish up this long winded ramble… Sex in slash fiction, sex in Pros - it should serve a function. Whether implicit or explicit, it's an integral part of the genre. It can titillate, exposit, or - in the case of the first time romance - iterate an emotional connection, but whatever it does, it should do something. If it doesn't, it's pointless and like excess adverbs should be left on the cutting room floor.






* By gen, I mean gen, not het that calls itself gen - which, btw, is a major pet peeve of mine. When I talk about gen I mean a story which reflects the relationship between the lads that we seen on screen, including all the slashy subtext, not an excuse to pair one of them up with a thinly disguised Mary Sue.

** With the exception of a good PWP, which in my mind has a different structure. In a PWP the emphasis is on the actual sex and, although I still want good characterisation, I don't expect an explanation as to how the lads ended up together. It's a given.

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

Are we talking slash? Because having recently read some of the het sex scenes in het fics...I think different things might be going on in the two evolutionary branches of Pros.

Adressing this strictly from a writing/reading standpoint -- sex for the sake of sex mostly bores me at this stage. I'm not much for PWP, and if I'm merely looking to "get off" as we say, it's not to Pros fic that I turn.

That said, I really enjoy a well-written sex scene in an otherwise strong fic. What I've come to conclude from my own adventures in writing (as someone who started out hesitant to throw a lot of sex in) is that these scenes of intimacy show us things about the characters, teach us things about the characters that we could see at no other time. It can reveal a power dynamic or insecurities or unexpected facets. People say things to each other in moments of intimacy that they might say at no other time -- and this is especially useful in Pros when writers sometimes have these two blokes making utterly unlikely and blush-making avowals to each other.

I have to admit to being pretty critical of sex scenes -- and not merely the Tab A into Slot...er...C stuff. For me, it's about quality over quantity. Although quality quantity is good too! *g* A well-written sex scene is an art. But when done right, it can turn a good story into a great story.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Well I'm definitely talking about slash - and very specifically Pros slash at that! I'd assume that the het and slash "branches" have very very different formative evolutions... and it's the slash I'm interested in, so... *g*

I'm definitely a quality over quantity person too - but that said, if someone's writing really bad sex scenes then the chances are I'm not particularly rapt in the rest of their story either, and I end up skimming or, more likely, putting it straight back down. I can't think of many of what I'd call "quality" fics where the sex has seemed gratuitous even - it's all so tied up in that word "quality", isn't it. If the story is "good quality" in the first place, then the odds are high the author will have got the sex-balance right as well...

And you're right, sex scenes can tell us so much about the characters, and their relationship, depth of emotion etc etc - it's really not all about the sex at all. I find that PWPs have to be really well done to draw me in too - "Gun Play" by Goodnightlady, mentioned above, is one that I like, but alot of what people are calling PWPs are actually snippets, and I find them less interesting - there's rarely any beginning or end, whereas there is with a decent PWP.

And ack - I have to leave to catch the bus! Back later!

[msmoat.livejournal.com]

I've been following this discussion on the various LJs and I think it does come down to what someone else said about, simply, good writing. I might say that PWP isn't my favorite form of story, but I have fallen for several PWPs over the years, when written by someone who writes well. For me, I suppose, all the theories about why sex, how much sex, what I like, what I don't like sort of fall by the wayside when I'm confronted by a well-written story. I simply want more of that. *g*

As for changing attitudes towards sex in stories.... I don't know. The first person I met in fandom used to skip sex scenes because they bored her. The second person I met in fandom was pretty much into any two guys bonking. *g* I do think there is possibly a more casual attitude towards sex in stories than there used to be, but I'd attribute that to the maturing of the genre. Sex scenes, er, beget sex scenes. *g* We see fewer of the "this is how men have sex" stories than we used to have. But other than that? We have new stories that run the gamut, and readers who like what they like--from a closed door to whoa. *g*

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

For me, I suppose, all the theories about why sex, how much sex, what I like, what I don't like sort of fall by the wayside when I'm confronted by a well-written story. I simply want more of that. *g*

This is so true. No sooner do I think...I hate that! Then someone does it brilliantly and totally wins me over.

[sineala.livejournal.com]

Oh, boy, sex!

Um. As a reader, I like sex in Pros stories. I also like stories without sex. I think I tend to like the ones with sex more, but that's mostly because I like long stories, and it seems like kind of a cheat if you're reading 50,000 words of romance and all the sex is fade-to-black, or there is none.

(On the other hand, just as a data point, there's a famous, fairly long slash story in another fandom that has no sex whatsoever. At all. Not even fade to black. I believe they kiss once, although they might not. It is my favorite story in that fandom. Several of my friends say it is their favorite in that fandom. One says it is her favorite piece of fanfiction ever.)

For me the sex in slash stories was at first a way of working out my own desires in a setting where I could identify with either character, or neither, or both, and a way of coming to terms with my own queerness -- because reading a bunch of happy gay stories got to me eventually. And now, I don't know. Sure, yes, it's sexy, but I think I kind of sappily view it as a way of expressing love in relationships and am happy to see it in Prosfic. But I think if the writer thinks they *have* to write sex, it's going to show, and I often end up skimming the sex in long stories when it looks like that's going to be the case. Sometimes it just gets too... generic.

I like sex scenes that serve to advance the plot, or the relationship, or something. Or they can just, you know, be hot. But it's better if there's something there for them to resolve.

I really hate the "only penetrative sex is Real Sex" kinds of stories where they've had eight billion orgasms but, you know, no one's touched their butt so they're virgins. I appreciate a wide variety of sexual practices, I guess. (Hell, in my WIP I just wrote intercrural sex. I don't think I've ever read that one.)

As a writer. Um. I like writing sex! It's sexyfun! I worry that my future zinefic there does not have enough sex in it to please readers. Because there are only two scenes in a gigantic story. (I am now overcompensating by writing a story that is scheduled to have about ten sex scenes. Which, yes, are all plot/relationship advancing. I hope. Set in a society where effeminacy (including homosexuality) is of great concern to, well, most of the characters. So this should be fun.)

I know I'm definitely coming at it differently than the older generation of Pros stories, but I think that has to do more with me wanting stories where I see queerness reflected in it. Or something. I dunno.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Starting from the premise that a writer is good in the first place then - yes! I like sex in Pros stories too! *g* It's fun - even when it might be part of a plot that's not fun, cos then you get all the emotional highs and lows and basically make-up sex that goes with it... *g* And if it's a death fic you get the glorious sadness of it... Done well it adds emotional depth to a story!

There's a story like that in Pros too! Barely a kiss or too, but it's the most gorgeous story - Larton, by Rhiannon (from Gryphon Press). It's just... *sighs happily*...

no one's touched their butt so they're virgins
Ohmygawd - yes! It's not real sex unless... I'm definitely not in that camp - sex is sex, from where ever it begins, to where ever it ends, and if no one touches anyone else it can still be sex...

There's intercrural sex in Pros! We have it all! Just... I'll never find it again now, cos I'm rubbish at remembering the where's and who's, but - it was only a week or so ago that I read one, in fact! *g* It seems to come about most often where one of them thinks the other one is going to go for penetrative sex, and there is much soothing and getting off between their thighs instead... *g* (Do you have the ProsLib disc, btw? You should get hold of it if not - thousands of Pros stories on it (well, must be over one thousand, anyway!)

Your future zinefic is fab as it is - I promise you... *g* Although if there's ten times as much in the new one, then I'm even happier... *vbg*

I think that has to do more with me wanting stories where I see queerness reflected in it
That's part of the bit that I'm interested in too - cos I wonder if many of the older Pros writers wanted the same thing, if that came into anyone's writing so that they had the lads come out, or whatever - or whether stories where the lads come out and have an actual wedding and so on are more reinforcing the heteronormative (ooh - get me!) stereotype - and are part of women working through a relatively new awareness and societal permission to have that awareness...

I feel like a bit of a weird mixture, cos while I want the lads together obviously I'm also fascinated by the tensions that would be caused by the times and society that they lived in - so that fics where they come out and get married leave me cringing a bit, not cos I don't want two blokes to do that, but because it's historically inaccurate for two blokes in their situation at the time... same with fics where everyone talks openly about the lads being a couple - historically inaccurate (in general society like a workplace)... But I adore Suitable Gravity, where the lads are openly a couple, cos it's an AU and they can be a couple in that AU society, and they even get married, and and... have you read that one? *happy sigh* And it's also full of plot and adventure and... just so the lads!

[mab-browne.livejournal.com]

have a biased attitude to sex in Pros because while I met slash in other fandoms and had a look at it, Pros is the fandom where I realised that 'omg I really *like* slash!'. At least as done by Bodie and Doyle. :-)

Sex writing is sex writing and it's not the same as slash. Yeah, in a lot of older stories there is the exploration of what it might mean to be gay because of the fact that Pros was an early adopter slash fandom at a time when public attitudes to homosexuality were even more peculiar than they are now. And while that attitude shapes the attitude to the sex, it's not necessarily the same as writing the sex. At least not to my mind.

I read a lot of Pros before I got sucked into The Sentinel, and I never saw quite the same proportion of PWP writing and 'tacked-on' sex scenes that I felt I saw in TS. TS is ten-fifteen years in its hey-day later than Pros and one of the first big internet fandoms. Maybe that affected how people chose to write fic. Although there was also a lot of the 'thinking about what it means to be gay' and feminising the guy with the long curly hair stories there too, especially in the earlier days of the fandom.

Another thing and it's a huge generalisation, but both Pros and TS are I think, 'mature' fandoms in terms of their memberships. Presumably there's generational difference between how fandoms do things. Certainly, I can see huge stylistic differences between the bulk of older Pros stories and what fans write now. Yes, I know an exception and a 'but!' lurks behind every tree - but still. It's there, and maybe reflects the fact that newer Pros fans/writers may have come through other fandoms first.

As for sex in a Pros story? Reading or writing? Think Robbie Coltrane as Fitz. 'I *like* it!' :-) Although for different reasons on different occasions.

Deleted and reposted to fix awful spelling mistake. :-)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

And while that attitude shapes the attitude to the sex, it's not necessarily the same as writing the sex.
Yes, that sounds right - the latter is bound to be related to author's style more than their attitude to it, and it was really people's attitudes to it that I set off wondering about... It's not the way people write sex as much as... what they're thinking when they write it - or more academically put perhaps, what's informing their writing choices *g*

both Pros and TS are I think, 'mature' fandoms in terms of their memberships
Hmmn - yes, I wondered what effect this had, and then Lukadreaming up above pointed out that Primeval fandom was actually composed of more mature writers (by which I tend to mean mid-thirties up, I guess!) and yet still wrote about sex in a very different way...

And yes - different reasons for different occasions, perfect! *g*

[wivern.livejournal.com]

This made me think. Speaking for myself I don't think the time is so much the difference as just the difference between people in fandom. Though I guess social norms must affect both writers and readers.

And the era the fandom is set must also, or at least should, if you are writing within cannon you have to deal with the fact that Pros was set quite a while ago now and 'things were different'.

I agree with the 'fandoms within fandoms' comment. In all the fandoms I've read extensively in (about half a dozen I'd say) there have been some pretty big differences within the fandom, from PWPs, to long plotty fic to MPreg, and G rated to XXX.

I also think it is almost always, if not always, about fantasy and escapism. I mean, are any of us making our living writing slash, though there is some academic work being done here and there.

With regard to openness, I don't know. When I first got into fandom I was at Uni and had numerous gay friends and lectures, things were pretty open in the circles I moved in then though maybe not in society generally and I can't say I've seen that effect fic overall really but perhaps it's a matter of where we each are and what we read. (Stating the bleeding obvious here. *g*)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

When I first got into fandom I was at Uni
I swear I'm not trying to work out your age (*g*) but when was that?!) I know you said elsewhere you've been around Pros since The Hatstand Express letterzine, and the earliest issue I have of that is 1986 - issue 8, but I'm not sure how long it was published, so I'm still trying to place you in fandom! *g* And are/were you in the UK, or US, or elsewhere...?

I don't think the time is so much the difference as just the difference between people in fandom
But surely that will have something to do with the ages of people in fandom, which is what has mostly affected their societal/slash/fandom experience, and will most likely be reflected in their writing? Unless you get someone really good, who's absolutely able to stick with historical realism from the time becaue they've bothered to do the research/remember perfectly accurately - but I don't think that's the norm... Even just the language of stories will differ depending on when the writer was brought up - younger writers more likely to automatically think, for example, of AIDS, condoms - different brands of condoms rather than yer basic Durex... *g* I've had conversations with people who were adamant that B/D should have been thinking constantly about wearing a condom, but more that the author should have been thinking about them doing that too, and included it no matter what...

Like - it seems as if fans now would be alot less accepting of a partner-rape story (or any other rape story) because we're so much more clued in via magazines and other media, not so much about rape itself (though presumably that too), but about the fact that so many people are sensitive to the fantasy of rape. Would anyone write a they-had-sex-and-Doyle-was-thus-able-to-get-over-his-rape story now? Whereas it seems to have been fairly common in Pros many years ago?

With regard to openness...things were pretty open in the circles I moved in
Yeah, but as you say - they were open in specific circles, but were they generally open? In fact there are quite big circles still today where it's not okay to be gay, and I can imagine that if people moved in those circles for non-fandom reasons they might feel attitudes etc if not rubbing off, then at least it might make up their overall impression of the world... Torchwood is still a pretty rare tv show... *g*

I think it's the individual's own experience that has the most effect on how they read/write fandom, but to a large extent surely that's shaped by the society they grew up in, which is affected by when that society was informing them... And then there's a difference between what people see as fantasy and escapism too - the whole rape-as-fantasy thing is common, but there seem to be alot of people who object to it on grounds of reality/realism, for example...

There's enough academic work being done that there was a whole conference devoted to slash in the UK for three years running - and I gather they take place in the US too... I don't think it's mainstream yet... *g*

ETA - sorry, you caught me in morning-coffee-rambling-mode!