All about the B/D sex...

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

So there's a really interesting discussion in a couple of places on my flist, about sex in Pros stories, only I've just realised that both the entries are locked, so that not "everyone" can join in, so (completely without the permission of either of my mates because we're all on different schedules - do email me if you want to shout at me!) I thought I might pose the question here as well...

What do you think of sex in Pros stories? How do you react to it/treat it as a reader/writer?

One thing I wondered, as I was commenting to someone was I wonder if "newer" Pros writers are approaching Pros fandom differently to some of the older writers, who were writing in a time where something like Pros slash was more of an escape, and was a really underground thing to do - so we were perhaps seeing the way these (mostly) women were talking about their sexual fantasies etc for the first time..? Which openness we tend to take more for granted now, and so treat differently? Although of course time blurs, and not everyone's at the same personal stage as their surrounding society... and of course I might just be talking complete rubbish and have a very odd view of the emergence of womens' sexuality... *g*

Hmmn - anyone fancy whiling away some time talking about the lads having sex? *g*

Comments

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

When I came to Pros... First of all I had to throw away some beloved prejudices:

"No Sex Please We're British!"
and
"Americans Are Prudish!"
... :-)))))))))))))

(but now off to work..., I'm looking forward for this discussion...)

[hambelandjemima.livejournal.com]

Ha! Just as I was thinking I really ought to get showered and dressed and do something constructive with my day....

My first reaction was to say that I always seek out a story that has sex in it but while that was true when I first started to read fanfiction, it's not the case so much now. I don't like reading a sex scene just because it's expected in the story - it has to be part of the story for me to enjoy it. It's the same when writing. I think I have a bit of a reputation for not skimping on the details but if it doesn't fit in the story it gets left out.

I feel that I've become more enlightened in recent years, but whether that's the result of me getting older or of me being more informed I couldn't say.

There's lots more to say. I'll give it some thought. *sigh* The things we do for fandom ♥

[squeeful.livejournal.com]

Oh be still my nerdy heart! :-D

I think it's still very much used as an expression of personal fantasies (always makes me wonder what people think of me once they "know" me so intimately!) but it's use like that is more acknowledged. Which is pretty much what you said, no? Forgive me, it is late and I am ill. So, what's your odd view? ;-)

[erushi.livejournal.com]

Oh, you. And here I was about to start my day being productive! (And of course I'm not going to shout at you. The more replies to read, the better! *g*)

I wonder if "newer" Pros writers are approaching Pros fandom differently to some of the older writers

Hm. Interesting. I think sex in fiction always harbours some element of escape and fantasy, however small or large said element is. However, I think a different sort of "openess" may be attributed to the change in trend, though. Not so much openess about female sexual expression, but about homosexuality.

I feel that there is a wider understanding right now that homosexuals are people, just like you and me, like most other men (or women) about save for a couple of preferences. Because of this, readers/writers might come to expect something a little more natural, more blokey.

Unfortunately, this sort of understanding and acceptance only really started to grow in the recent decade. Much older writers/readers, probably not having much to go by, may thus place it in a more familiar setting which they, at least, can understand, e.g. feminising of one male character. (Plus, crude as this may sound, you could even say that it translates well, as it was unfortunately very wrongly presumed for a long while that homosexual would equate effiminate.)

So yes, That's my two pence. Off to be productive now, and thanks for starting this discussion here too!

[heliophile-oxon.livejournal.com]

wish I wasn't rushing off out! will check out discussion later - looking forward to it!

[biani.livejournal.com]

When I came from X Files to Pros it was like a culture shock for me. Where in XF about 90% of the stories contain/or end with anal sex writers in Pros seem to favour frottage. So my first impression of the fandom was pretty much "mixed". That was not the only thing that I found a little strange at first and I wrote a post about my impressions and compared both fandoms: http://biani.livejournal.com/564265.html.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Lol - glad to hear it! But from what I understand, people in the UK and USA (Canada and Australia and NZ?) didn't talk openly about sex - particularly what women like, and the idea that women might like to see two men together. It certainly wasn't in any of the "women's mags" when that I read in either Aus or the UK (or the US ones I read), and although I don't buy them now I'm not sure that's changed. So I get the impression that women publically enjoying sex is still... only accepted in certain contexts. *g* And women enjoying two men having sex? Pretty much still underground unless you know where to look on the internet? Maybe? What's it like in your part of the world then?

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

Came for the sex, stayed for the stories... True Fact!

I first read fan fiction when I was into BTVS. Primarily Buffy/Spike, but not necessarily. I liked fic by people like bluebell and sandycat (Addictive Stigmata - anyone remember that site?). Plot plus sex - loads of it. Dark, twisted, angsty.

I found Pros sites (pre-Circuit make-over). I remembered watching the show, but wasn't sure who was who. Got the DVD's, read the fic = hooked completely. Joined Pros-Lit, read back in files and searched the internet for history ('cos I'm bent that way). Saw writings about the subversiveness of fan fiction, the way it emerged as an expression of female sexuality and creativity. Made sense to me.

Joined and read lj comms. Found great folks, some who thought like I did, others who (shock!) didn't.

Still like to read sex. Oral or anal, please, with a side salad of power play. It's not wrong to want that, surely? Is there a new morality in town or something? I must have missed the PSA.

I just wish I could write the stories I love to read :(

[magenta-blue.livejournal.com]

Sex in Pros stories - I think when I was starting out reading I was like the more the merrier! Twas a feast of naughtiness, especially when reading at work making my internet screen all small so I could quickly click over to spreadsheets. My poor mind was very confused... and Doyle grabbed Bodie's... *click!* minutes of meeting 1.a discussion of *click!* ...Doyle's balls.

But actually, reading wise, I guess it depends if I am in the mood! (sorry fic, I have a headache *g*) It depends on how well the scene is written, if it is necesary to move the story on, or enhances the story, and whether I guess if there is a plot behind the panting and groaning. Someone somewhere said 'emotional porn' (been jumping about LJ very quickly and cannot think who to attribute that to - think it was on erushi's LJ) - brilliant description - that really sums up what I like from ff. The back story appeals just as much as the physical side, its the whole package I generally enjoy. Ahem. Packages? *shuts up*

As for writing sex scenes - hee. Hee! My fic is nearly all case driven, and I enjoy twisting in subtle slash with that, as that is what I think suits the story. If I wrote a story where I felt a sex scene was needed, then I'd like to think I'd be ok with it, but my general enjoyment of writing in Pros is more subtle than graphic. That could change, you never know. ;)

[magenta-blue.livejournal.com]

Came for the sex, stayed for the stories... True Fact!

That pretty much sums me up as well *g*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Why do I start these things when I have a whole day of work in front of me?! Still - piece of work - comment - piece of work - comment - tea break - comment -comment -comment - piece of work... *g*

I always seek out a story that has sex in it
I think that's what I did mostly - not seek it out perhaps, but appreciated it more, and to some extent I still do. I suppose I like to think that the lads' relationship is at that level as much as anything else, although I also think a good sex scene is a good sex scene. *g* Now I also know that I like stories that even claim to be "gen" stories, but to me have that extra depth of relationship about the lads, even if they're not actually having sex - LRH Balzar springs to mind, for example. What alot of people call "pre-slash".

I feel that I've become more enlightened in recent years
Is it being enlightened, or is it just having experienced that thing now, and wanting to experience something else, I wonder..?

It is awful, thinking about this all day... *g*

[bistokids.livejournal.com]

Emotional porn - liking that! Sums it up beautifully. For me, the erotic content of sex between these two comes more from the set-up than from what they actually get up to - give me a position of enforced vulnerability (which can be anything from one of them capturing the other's hands, or even a telling remark), the right kind of smouldering look from Doyle, the right kind of increased breathing from Bodie, and I'm pretty much there! (Well no, not there - there in a hooked-in kind of way!)

I don't particularly get off on two men together as a general concept any more than I get off on man/woman - it's the specifics of two powerful, dangerous (and obviously drop-dead gorgeous) men meeting on equal terms - if one is less equal, how that has come to be must be established in the story, and then I'm a happy bunny (handcuffs yay! :D). For me, and this is just how I react, feminisation of either character turns me right off. I tend to struggle with full-on BDSM for a similar reason, although when someone gets this balance right that can be the hottest fic.

I've described my reaction before as sex=danger=sex, and I think that stands. (TBH, I find that scene in Fugitive where Bodie's being manhandled around by the Germans as erotically charged as a graphic description of Tab A being inserted into Slot B. All that power contained...*shiver* *off to happy place*)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh no, don't be ill! And yeay nerdy discussion! *g* It's been too long since the last one!

My odd little view... *g* I like to read that the lads are having sex, and I like to read the details (as long as they're written in a way where I can imagine them, rather than just as someone telling me what's happening, if you know what I mean). But then I've liked reading about sex since I was fairly young - oh the joy and glee that there were people who'd thought of writing about the sex B and D were having, and of sharing it with people! Yeay! thought I, when I first found slash - and also here are women being open about it all, and having a good time, and just... yeay!

And you're right, I think we do acknowledge, just by being here that we're talking about our fantasies etc, and that's what gives the writing and reading the passion that it has - because it is about our desires, of whatever kind and nature (and not necessarily, perhaps, the ones that we're more obviously showing (ie, the whole rape-as-freedom-from-constraints in fanfic rather than being rape-as-power-struggle in reality)

In fact, come to think of it, that's really interesting... I wonder how it works for people who say they're not here for the sex, but who do write sex into their stories anyway because they real they should "for the readers" - and how do those sex scenes work for the readers? (Not sure how we could answer that one, without someone who's in that position jumping in... *looks around hopefully*... or maybe there isn't anyone like that...

Or - people who worry about the technical writing of the sex scenes - does that make any difference? Do we get the same passion from those sex scenes? Or do we just get technical weakness from people who don't worry about what goes where and how many arms the couple end up having..? I know that I (now!) quite like writing a sex scene into a story (if it works as part of the story), and I enjoy fiddling with it, and I can only leave it in if it feels like passion to me - but that doesn't mean that it'll feel like passion to anyone else...

Hmmn... *g*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Me too, once I saw that there was sex! *g*

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

Have you read Normal Female Interest in Men Bonking (http://web.mit.edu/cms/People/henry3/bonking.html)? I particularly love the M Fae quotes:

""Well, as a NEW fan, people would ask me what I liked most about slash, why I had got involved in it, etc. And then would appear shocked when I said, 'Oh, that's easy. It's the sex!' The standard answer was still the 'love, romance, caring,' etc., and the majority were very taken aback when I said that I was open to any fandom, as long as it was slash and as long as we had at least two men buggering each other into next week.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh good - hoped you'd think that! *g*

Not so much openness about female sexual expression, but about homosexuality.
Ah, but wasn't that what was happening 30 years ago, when slash was first "starting" only for women? It was finally being acknowledged that women were "real" people too, and therefore had desires and needs, and that it was okay for them to talk about it out loud? Only it didn't happen all at once, it happened gradually over 30 years, so surely what we see in fanfic is a reflection of where different women were in that process? Jane might be a good example of that - I always think she explains things like "it isn't okay to say that a woman dressing a certain way is looking for sex" as if she's just worked it out herself and wants to tell everyone. And then she also tells people that "it's okay for two men to love each other" in the same way...

See I wonder if the "feminisation" is as much to do with writers empathising (not MarySueing, that's different) with one particular character, and therefore having them react in a way that they might react to things - or have things happen that they'd like to happen... Again, less a conscious "writing" thing - "I am writing about" as unconsciously putting their own passions into their stories... (I think it was above to Squeeful that I was wondering about that)

[lukadreaming.livejournal.com]

I won't say no to a smoking hawt sex scene, but with Pros I find that I want there to be that air of danger between the two of them. Oh, and a damn good plot to the story *g*.

When I started reading Pros, it did feel empowering to find writers like Kitty Fisher and Helen Raven writing explicit sex scenes and portraying strong characters. There never seemed to be a lot of pre-slash stuff in Pros, and what there was was very well-written, but made me want to shout 'get on with it, already!'

I've only ever read in two fandoms -- Pros and Primeval. The latter is obviously a tiny fandom, but it has a far higher proportion of explicit stories than Pros did. If you want filth (and some damn good stories), then Primeval's your fandom *bg*. But it doesn't have what's generally seen as a OTP like Pros does.

I wonder if younger writers in newer fandoms feel obliged to write Tab A into Slot B scenes, even if the stories don't need it!

[magenta-blue.livejournal.com]

Hahahaha... what a great quote *g*

Thanks for the link, I've bookmarked that to read later :)

[erushi.livejournal.com]

Gosh, but I do love discussions like this. *g*

I agree with you that it is entirely possible to link the rise of slash fandoms with the gradual acknowledgment of female liberty and sexuality.

See I wonder if the "feminisation" is as much to do with writers empathising (not MarySueing, that's different) with one particular character, and therefore having them react in a way that they might react to things - or have things happen that they'd like to happen... Again, less a conscious "writing" thing - "I am writing about" as unconsciously putting their own passions into their stories...

One of the theories I've always harboured about the whole slash movement is that slash serves as a very effective way of distancing whilst at the same time living vicariously. It's like the whole rape/non-con/term-of-your-choice fantasy scenario. A lady might dream of X. However, being a lady, she will still have a few rather inconvenient things to bear, like the risk of getting pregnent if she's to spend the weekend in bed with the dashing lover, or, horrors! telling your bloke that you can't have sex with him today because it's that time of the month. *g* Also, say if the relationship doesn't work out in the end (though of course they always do in fiction), the lady is generally left at a distinct disadvantage. On the other hand, men don't have these bodily functions to worry about. And, it may be assumed, they will be stronger and in a better position to cope after the relationship ends. Sort of like the "a lady who sleeps around is a wanton slut, a man who sleeps around is a dashing and manly stud" thing, gener roles and perceptions in society etc. So by having two men sleeping with each other, a lady gets to enjoy her piece of romance without having to fret about these practical worries which will probably interfere with her reading. I'm not sure about you, but even as a child, I had never held much store about happily ever after when the princess runs away with the knight, always wondering things like "what if they ran out of money?" *g*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh I know! I'm desperately and in a tiny screen trying to talk about this while at the same time working properly as I'm supposed to be! I do hope people are around later on, after work, as well!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh, interesting... I can't go and read your other post now (I'm at work - why didn't I wait to start this, it's all so gooood!) but it's so interesting! There is alot of frot in Pros, but because I don't read other fandoms, I have no idea how it compares, so... I will come back, I promise!

[empty-mirrors.livejournal.com]

I prefer plot, tbh, and will read a long plotty gen* fic more happily than a shorter, smutty** slash fic. Sex in a story should be there to do something, or it becomes repetitive and frankly boring, however well written.

My least fav type of story is the first time-y, fall in love-y, really just an excuse to gush and make the lads have sex. Having said that, I think that's the structure that says more about sex in slash fiction than almost any other. And please excuse me if I go off on a tangent here.

A *first time* story, in my experience, mostly ends with the lads screwing *properly* for the first time - and by *properly* I mean anal intercourse. Any sexual contact up to this point is seen as somehow lesser (Lawks, I hate generalising but it's a pattern I've come across all over slash fiction). To me, that shows the inherent heterosexist assumptions still prevalent within the genre - that intercourse is the only *real* sex. The reality is that many homosexual couples never have anal intercourse and yet enjoy completely fulfilling sex lives.

Okay, so, whenever I come across a story that is a thinly veiled excuse to get the lads fucking - and I've written them myself, so I'm hardly one to condemn out of hand - I'm always left with the question of why. Why write this story? It's not about pure sex - if it was, it'd be a PWP. And there's not enough plot in it to fill a thimble let alone an episode, and Pros is hardly known for its complexity in that direction. So the obvious answer is that it's an emotional kick that's wanted, rather than a sexual or intellectual one. This is reinforced by the fact that even in stories where the lads are fuck-buddies, the emotional first-time is still regarded as a first-time. Thus what role does the actual act of sex - mostly anal intercourse - actually serve? For that, I'd say we need to turn to other examples of this type of writing - Mill and Boon or Harlequin, and their antecedents.

Years ago, the final scene in those books was the walk down the aisle - think P&P as an example. This was the model that women aspired to (and again with the generalisations. Apologies). Of course slash fiction posed something of a problem in that area - to whit, for same-sex couples, marriage wasn't/isn't an option. Thus the final scene became rewritten into an emotional commitment which carried the same weight as marriage - at least in the minds of the authors.

Let's think about when the first slash fanfic was being written. The 1960s. Yes, the era of the sexual revolution, but the still, the truth for a lot of women was still that they were expected to remain chaste until marriage and only bad girls did it before they had a ring. Thus, what greater commitment could there be than to give your virginity to a lover. In the case of slash fiction, the act of anal intercourse - and dear lord doesn't that sounds clinical.

Today, the baggage is less. Women are expected, mostly, to have had sex before marriage, often with multiple partners, and sleeping around no longer carries quite the same social stigma. And yet the desire for emotional commitment remains for a lot of people. Interestingly, though whether the two are directly related I couldn't say, the way of expressing it in heterosexual romance novels now tends to echo that in slash fiction. Now the final scene in a Harlequin or Mill and Boon is likely to be an emotional first time, - or the first time actual intercourse takes place, though this is less common. But still that emotional connection is found in the bedroom. There is no fade to black, no discrete averting of the gaze. The sex is written out in full - often badly - and the emotional connection is iterated and reiterated during the act.

The same thing can be said for stories that include bonding or other supernatural ways of joining a couple together, and although such relationships do often include sex, they also sometimes don't. In fact some writers will argue vehemently that although their characters spend half the story wrapped round each other, kissing and sharing various bodily fluids, they are not writing slash. Maybe they aren't, but the bonding serves the same function in their stories as sex does in this genre of slash fiction.

[empty-mirrors.livejournal.com]

Whereas once the altar provided the backdrop for our happily ever after, now the counterpane does. But the reason for it remains the same. The reinforcement or affirmment that there is more to this relationship than just sex, or just an arranged marriage.


So, to finish up this long winded ramble… Sex in slash fiction, sex in Pros - it should serve a function. Whether implicit or explicit, it's an integral part of the genre. It can titillate, exposit, or - in the case of the first time romance - iterate an emotional connection, but whatever it does, it should do something. If it doesn't, it's pointless and like excess adverbs should be left on the cutting room floor.






* By gen, I mean gen, not het that calls itself gen - which, btw, is a major pet peeve of mine. When I talk about gen I mean a story which reflects the relationship between the lads that we seen on screen, including all the slashy subtext, not an excuse to pair one of them up with a thinly disguised Mary Sue.

** With the exception of a good PWP, which in my mind has a different structure. In a PWP the emphasis is on the actual sex and, although I still want good characterisation, I don't expect an explanation as to how the lads ended up together. It's a given.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I had to skip down here, cos I'm a-thinkin'... *g*

Why write this story?
Now there's the question...

This is reinforced by the fact that even in stories where the lads are fuck-buddies, the emotional first-time is still regarded as a first-time.
See, I find this really weird, because for me the first time is the first time, and even a decision to be fuck-buddies is a deepening of some level of their relationship - so presumably the people calling "emotional first time" want a specific depth to that relationship...

Of course slash fiction posed something of a problem in that area... so...emotional commitment
Ah (*reading on...*), so in this case, the reason I don't "get" the "emotional first time" thing is because I'm effectively the next generation along? I accept that their having sex for the first time doesn't necessarily = wedding/emotional commitment and so the distinction doesn't mean anything to me...

So theeeeen - the next "generational" step along is... that the sex means so little that it's effectively unnecessary to any story that might be written? Which interestingly enough is something I do seem to have seen reflected in some "newer" Pros writers comments in various places, and Lukadreaming mentions something about there being more sex in younger-fandom Primeval fic - maybe that would match up too?

Hmmn...

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I can go either way with the idea of danger between them. In general I want there to be some air of danger, that's what makes things readable to me (tension? something that needs resolving? A puzzle!) but I can also go with the curtain-fic-ish, cosy-type Pros stories as well, which... I suppose are reiterating the emotional aspect of things, rather than challenging it. Hmmn - kind of the equivalent of a hug, I guess! *g*

But yes, plot! It takes a really special story to be all about the relationship without also showing us how the relationship fits into their world, which generally means there needs to be plot of some sort. Otherwise fic seems like it's just talking about it all the time (and my head does enough of that by itself!)

I wonder if the Primeval fans might be younger in general as well as it being a younger fandom? So that they're all about personally playing with the excitement of explicit, whereas older fans might have experienced that already, and be looking around and past it? (Although I personally still like the explicit at times... *g*) But I don't think explicit necessarily has to equal slots A and B, does it? Surely there can be explicit that includes all the slots, but is more than that? (I keep coming back to the idea of the passion of a story...)