CI5 hq

The incredible selfishness I don't get. I don't see that in canon.

The penny-pinching probably stems from Doyle's complaining about not getting pay raises, about his expense chits not being signed, worrying about his pension, fretting over losing money on the horsese, etc. I don't recall Bodie indicating concern over any of this. In fact, he seems amused and used to Doyle's complaints, indicating that he's heard it all before -- a lot.

I think many writers are influenced by other writers, particularly writers they admire, so if these themes popped up in the early writings of the fandom "greats," that might explain it.

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squeeful.livejournal.com

All of which are completely reasonable worries for a person who's working in a hazardous job that doesn't pay exorbitantly in recessed economy with high unemployment and -- at least I always got the feel -- a likely working class background. He's got good reasons to be frugal.

This isn't aimed at you, but put a little more effort into your character quirks and background. If you're going to give them a trait, have a good idea why they act that way. Personalities don't form in a vacuum.

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I don't understand stories where Doyle is selfish. He's exactly the opposite, and Bodie even mentions his caring too much. I find those stories OCC myself. It's the same with Doyle being so mean and nasty that he sets out to destroy Bodie over some slight. I don't buy it for a second.

Now the penny-pinching I can buy since he does gripe several times about money. I agree that people read it in a story, then write it in their own. That's how fanon ideas start and grow. Like Bodie being emotionless and cold, when he's the opposite plenty of times. He has his arrogant moments, but overall he's got a heart.

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squeeful.livejournal.com

I have some ideas, but few of them are flattering to fandom. After this, I shall stop writing accidental alliterations.

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msmoat.livejournal.com

I've never bought into either characterization. I can see a ruthless Doyle--including within the context of a relationship, even with Bodie--but under proper circumstances. I guess that's what frustrates about some of these fannish characterizations--they're so one-dimensional. Anyone, at certain times, can be incredibly selfish. Or tight with his/her money. Or incredibly self-sacrificing. Or generous. Can't Doyle show all of those things and still be in character? Wouldn't the characterization come in showing the reasons and motivations behind how he acts? That's how I like to see the lads--behaving like fully-rounded humans, under the circumstances that the story posits.

I do remember people used to talk about how "mean" Doyle is to Bodie in canon. (These conversations used to drive me crazy. *g*) They'd point to the start of "Wild Justice," where Doyle yelled at Bodie, rather than supporting him. And abandoned him at the track. Clearly, they said, Doyle was a selfish bastard there. I, um, saw it differently. *g*

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I can see a ruthless Doyle--including within the context of a relationship, even with Bodie--but under proper circumstances. I guess that's what frustrates about some of these fannish characterizations--they're so one-dimensional.

I've been thinking about that lately. Maybe it ties in with so many newer fics -- the majority? being short fics, vingettes almost. Maybe it's a simple matter of there not being room to delve deeply?

And I don't know that exploring the characters is really what attracts a lot of these writers to fandom. Sometimes I think part of the pleasure must come from simply putting the characters through their paces. It's almost more of a visual tradition than a literary one -- not that there isn't some amazing stuff written, but so much of it is focused on their looks, recapturing exactly how they look and how they sound -- and what they say and do is almost secondary.

That's my impression, anyway.

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Now the penny-pinching I can buy since he does gripe several times about money.

I see it, but I've never thought of it as serious enough to count as an actual character flaw. More as an amusing quirk. It seems to amuse Bodie, and I think his reactions are a good cue.

Of course the fun of all this is that the canon characters are just vague enough to allow for lots of room in writing.

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Yeah, I agree with that. I think the penny pinching isn't a flaw, just a quirk. It's not something that seems to be a problem, he'd starve rather than spend money for food. And it is used as a humourous device.

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msmoat.livejournal.com

It's almost more of a visual tradition than a literary one
That's an interesting way to put it. And it might explain why I sometimes feel out of sync with certain aspects of fandom. *g* I mean, I think the lads are gorgeous, but my fascination with them stems from their characters and their relationship. Certainly there are a fair number of writers who just want to capture a visualization of the lads--whether that scene has any deeper meaning or not. Are short stories too short for character development? Well, maybe as they tend to be conceived of in fandom. So they use the shorthand of fanon. But there are plenty of older and longer stories that show a "cheap" Doyle and a "bastard" Doyle.

Hmm, and actually, if writers use fanon for shortcuts to characterization...well, that's part of what fandom is, in a way. Writers who are interested in exploring the characters on deep levels can do so more quickly in a story because they know the audience brings so much to the table themselves. In original fiction you'd have to set up the characterization to prepare the reader to be brought to a deep level inside the character; in fanfic you can go deeper more quickly. In the hands of a skilled writer, that kind of story can be immensely satisfing. If the writer, however, uses shortcuts that aren't substantiated, or thoughtful...well, that can be very frustrating.

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kiwisue.livejournal.com

I think these two fanon characteristics come from different places.

"tight with money" I think of as a 'meme' that's travelled from some starting point writer to another - possibly without a lot of research into canon! There's something in the episodes to suggest he's concerned about money (the expenses chit, the raise) but there's also bits that seem to say the opposite, or at least that he doesn't mind spending when it's his turn, e.g. 'Hunter, Hunted':
DOYLE: No, this is on me.
BODIE: You paid last week.
DOYLE: All right, then, you pay.
which seems to me to be a little joke between them. Doyle doesn't insist on paying when Bodie reminds him he paid last time (but if someone was that careful with their cash, you'd think they'd be keeping very close track of who paid what and when).

So I guess I now want to know where this meme entered canon. Any ideas? I suspect Jane (but I always suspect Jane, so...).

The other, Doyle as 'selfish', I don't encounter as often. I wonder whether it's got as much to do with how readers interpret some stories ("how could Doyle treat Bodie that way") as it does with how the writers intended to portray him. Again, I'd be looking for examples, and trying to dig back into fandom history (but that's just me - please pass me a virtual trowel!). MFae does a Doyle who is often wrapped up in his own needs, maybe her fanwork is one of the places that came from.

Edited Date: 2007-11-16 09:14 am (UTC)

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schnuffi.livejournal.com

Selfish Doyle (if not in proper context cause sometimes you just have to be) is quite out of character for me. I simply can't see him putting his own well being over that of Bodie for example. Or hurting people because of being selfish.

As for the money pinching I have no idea really. Maybe because Bodie he never seems to have small money for the phone? I dunno. It's not a character part I associate with him anyway.

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miwahni.livejournal.com

Funny, I was pondering the 'selfish' angle this morning, and I came to the conclusion that he's not selfish as such, but can seem to be incredibly thoughtless at times. Like when he leaves Bodie to carry their bags upstairs.

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I consider that scene teasing. If you look at Doyle's face, he's got that snirk on it, and Bodie's doing the long-suffering look. Bodie could have said, "Oi! Carry your own bags, arsehole!" Right? That was a bit of fun to me, not thoughtlessness.

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shooting2kill.livejournal.com

I've never understood the selfish aspect, either. (Sorry, just seen miwahni's comment and Bodie carrying the bags is a good example of *something* - taking him for granted? - and it also happens in another episode where Bodie ends up carrying more stuff from a car than Doyle, sorry, can't remember the name). Mind you, Doyle *does* bring Bodie a sandwich in one episode when Bodie's on surveillance - Slush Fund, I think.

The penny pinching angle *might* be from examples like the beginning of the episode where they think Cowley might be 'turning' (and they go for a run in a cemetery and meet 'plum') and Doyle is manoeuvred into buying a round for the chap who's leaving do it is and he says, seeming a bit fedup, 'and it's *my* round).

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Mind you, Doyle *does* bring Bodie a sandwich in one episode when Bodie's on surveillance - Slush Fund, I think.

He brings him a bottle, doesn't he? Which is actually a very nice little gift. And I think Bodie then offers him a leftover sandwich.

And the bags -- that could actually count as low level flirting, believe it or not.

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So I guess I now want to know where this meme entered canon. Any ideas? I suspect Jane (but I always suspect Jane, so...).

Nah. That would imply that Doyle wasn't perfect. I don't think Jane would settle for THAT.*g*

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Be late to me own funeral, me... (as they say *g*)

so if these themes popped up in the early writings of the fandom "greats," that might explain it.
Well, yeah, that's fanon, innit - exactly what I was asking about! *g* But how does it originally come about - what are people seeing? Are lots of people seeing it, or are they all led on by that one famous story..? If there's more than one famous story along those lines, why?

See, all that "complaining" about the pay rises/expense chits etc I always take as general tongue-half-in-cheek to-be-expected whinging-about-the-job, the kind that everyone does, and the kind that we all expect to do. Hence Bodie's amusement - it's all part of what people are supposed to say about their work (at least over here). Oh, and I've just had a brilliant idea, I'm looking up what Kate Fox has to say in Watching the English (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Watching-English-Hidden-Rules-Behaviour/dp/0340818867) because I just remembered that not only did I buy myself a shiny new copy a couple of months ago, I've just last week unpacked it... Ha! Nothing under "complaining", but in the index under "Moans/moaning" are 54 entries, with an additional reference to the declaration "Typical!". And "work-place" gets 5 of those entries to itself, one being 3 pages long! Right, let's see...

Oh yeah, it's got a whole section to itself, starting thus:
"The rather less admirable English habit of constant moaning is another distinguishing feature of our workplace behaviour, and of our attitude to work. The principal rule in this context is that work is, almost by definition, something to be moaned about. There is a connection here with the Importance of Not Being Earnest rule, in that if you do not indulge in the customary convivial moaning about work, there is a danger that you will be seen as too keen and earnest, and labelled a 'sad geek', a sycophant 'suck' or a self-important 'pompous git'." (To which yes!)

Aha, and another bit, which is the whole rolling-of-eyes, amused-by-it, heard-it-all-before aspect of what I see the lads doing:
"In a way, 'Typical!' is a manifestation of what used to be called the English 'stiff upper lip': it is a complaint, but a complaint that also expresses a very English kind of grudging forebearance and restraint - a sort of grumpy, cynical stoicism."

To which yes! again - this is just what I see when I hear Doyle's so-called "complaints" about money etc, they're not real because he's also shown to be absolutely generous about things (like saying he'll pay for dinner in WTHCO, buying his round in SoTM etc). Ye gods I love Fox's book. I think I've recommended it to you before - well I do so again, and thrice so! *g*

In actual fact, we don't see Bodie buying a round, or offering to pay for dinner ever, but what interests me is the way that's glossed over by fanfic writers, and Doyle, the one we do see doing these things, gets the flak! Come to think of it - Doyle brings Bodie a "pressie" when he's on surveillance, and a sandwich (admittedly liver sausage!) too, but I don't think we ever see Bodie giving Doyle anything like that - oh, maybe the ice-creams in Blackout, and the drink in Stopover, although that's still after Doyle's first round - and yet this never seems to come up, Bodie is portrayed as the absolutely generous one!

The horse racing is another example of it all too - I'm never convinced that any of them have actually put money on a horse, it's more sort of banter and general interest, and Monday-morning-footballer sort of stuff - from the same place as "fantasy leagues" came from, but not really about the money and the prospect of gambling or winning big - at least in the lads' case, to me...

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Yeah, that's just it - it's a quirk, but it's mostly something to play on, something probably used to cover up for the actual things that they might moan about, but won't, because they're too serious. If you're about to die tomorrow, whinge about your expenses today...

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but few of them are flattering to fandom
So! Tell me anyway! My question was about something very specific, I'm not looking for answers that "flatter fandom" in any way at all! Go on, you know you want to... *g*

Love the icon, btw. And the alliteration...

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I can see a ruthless Doyle--including within the context of a relationship, even with Bodie--but under proper circumstances
Ooh, this interests me - now, where and why do you see the possibility of him being ruthless? What is it in the show, about his character, that gives that you that impression? *jumps on you to pin you down* *g* (And I can totally see it in some odd things too, but not to the extent that it's sometimes portrayed - in the Siren sequence, and Freezing, for example, and actually quite alot of Sebastian's writing, come to think of it.)

Ah, the Wild Justice thing... I've got to admit, much as I adore that whole ep, Doyle seems to be acting as much out of character as Bodie is (which just turns to a whole other thing in my slashy brain *g*) - but that's the thing, to me it struck me as out of character, it sounds like these people saw it as in character with what they'd seen on the show before that... (Mind you, this all might have been from long ago too, when people were relying on the odd videod episode that was around, and long gaps between eps that were all out of order, so I guess there is that to consider too...)

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I'm never convinced that any of them have actually put money on a horse, it's more sort of banter and general interest

Hmm. In one episode Doyle says he's lost fifty p., doesn't he? Stirring of Dust? Heroes? Somewhere. I think he probably does gamble -- there's certainly nothing wrong with that -- but the fact that he's willing to gamble his hard-earned p. seems to indicate that money isn't really a concern.

And, of course, if they were serious gamblers there would undoubtedly be ramifications for the job.

Then again, CI5 is an awfully unorthodox law enforcement agency.

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Yeah, I assume that most of this stuff is very meme-like (excellent description, btw!), and thus were fanons born... But yeah, excellent question (jolly good post all round! *g*) - where did it all start... I have this dream of putting up a list of zines/stories in chronological order at palelyloitering one day, so we can track that sort of thing, but then maybe I should concentrate on getting all the zines up/-to-date to start with!

As I said above, I do think that alot of the money-thing is actually tongue-cheek from Doyle, or at least just part of him being within the national character! I never thought twice about it, or took it seriously, until I realised that other people did!

And yeah, interpretation of stories is another thing too - and then how that might grow into another writer's story, and so on. And maybe the stories I'm thinking of where Doyle is portrayed quite selfishly were never meant to be about that (back to that authorial intent post I keep thinking generally about!) But Sebastian especially, for me, M.Fae, Kate Maclean (although she tends to flip things about to show you're not really seeing what you think you're seeing - ooh, the fic version of this conversation! *g*)

I don't think I remember a real selfish-Doyle Jane fic, although actually he's a bit like that in Unfinished Melody (which I really struggle with as a story, tbh!) Know what you mean about her tending to be the first suspect for so many things, though... *g*

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msmoat.livejournal.com

Quick reply--as no time--about "Wild Justice". See, that's exactly what I mean. To me, that episode represents a need for a back story. Why is Doyle so frustrated--beyond the obvious? I don't see this as an example of bastard Doyle (or out of character Doyle), but rather as an example of a frustrated man who yells--and, as people seem to forget, also comforts. Who among us hasn't lost their temper with friends/lovers/family who have frustrated us? So, the question isn't, "Why is Doyle out of character" but rather, "What's been going on?" And, again for me, this is prime "they're human" stuff.

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Oh, yes. Like the target shooting. They're all silly and boyish, messing about. How could they do their jobs always worrying about every single moment and what could happen. Like when Doyle worries about his pension. It would be depressing to think that you're going to die any second, so why even have a pension. A person can't live any sort of life that way!

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