A Doyle-thing to think about...

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

There's something I've been wondering for a while, off and on, every time I read a fic that reminds me of it, and I'd love to hear what other people think about this. Can anyone tell me:

What is it about canon Doyle that has made fanfic writers portray him as:

a) incredibly selfish

b) incredibly tight with money

I'm really really curious - anyone got any ideas? Are there particular moments that stand out, where he behaves like that? Why do they stand out? Or is it some more general thing? How many people would agree with that portrayal?

It's not that I can't see what might make an author write Doyle like this, it's just that I can't see why he's so often portrayed that way. Whatcha think?

Comments

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

The incredible selfishness I don't get. I don't see that in canon.

The penny-pinching probably stems from Doyle's complaining about not getting pay raises, about his expense chits not being signed, worrying about his pension, fretting over losing money on the horsese, etc. I don't recall Bodie indicating concern over any of this. In fact, he seems amused and used to Doyle's complaints, indicating that he's heard it all before -- a lot.

I think many writers are influenced by other writers, particularly writers they admire, so if these themes popped up in the early writings of the fandom "greats," that might explain it.

[squeeful.livejournal.com]

All of which are completely reasonable worries for a person who's working in a hazardous job that doesn't pay exorbitantly in recessed economy with high unemployment and -- at least I always got the feel -- a likely working class background. He's got good reasons to be frugal.

This isn't aimed at you, but put a little more effort into your character quirks and background. If you're going to give them a trait, have a good idea why they act that way. Personalities don't form in a vacuum.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Be late to me own funeral, me... (as they say *g*)

so if these themes popped up in the early writings of the fandom "greats," that might explain it.
Well, yeah, that's fanon, innit - exactly what I was asking about! *g* But how does it originally come about - what are people seeing? Are lots of people seeing it, or are they all led on by that one famous story..? If there's more than one famous story along those lines, why?

See, all that "complaining" about the pay rises/expense chits etc I always take as general tongue-half-in-cheek to-be-expected whinging-about-the-job, the kind that everyone does, and the kind that we all expect to do. Hence Bodie's amusement - it's all part of what people are supposed to say about their work (at least over here). Oh, and I've just had a brilliant idea, I'm looking up what Kate Fox has to say in Watching the English (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Watching-English-Hidden-Rules-Behaviour/dp/0340818867) because I just remembered that not only did I buy myself a shiny new copy a couple of months ago, I've just last week unpacked it... Ha! Nothing under "complaining", but in the index under "Moans/moaning" are 54 entries, with an additional reference to the declaration "Typical!". And "work-place" gets 5 of those entries to itself, one being 3 pages long! Right, let's see...

Oh yeah, it's got a whole section to itself, starting thus:
"The rather less admirable English habit of constant moaning is another distinguishing feature of our workplace behaviour, and of our attitude to work. The principal rule in this context is that work is, almost by definition, something to be moaned about. There is a connection here with the Importance of Not Being Earnest rule, in that if you do not indulge in the customary convivial moaning about work, there is a danger that you will be seen as too keen and earnest, and labelled a 'sad geek', a sycophant 'suck' or a self-important 'pompous git'." (To which yes!)

Aha, and another bit, which is the whole rolling-of-eyes, amused-by-it, heard-it-all-before aspect of what I see the lads doing:
"In a way, 'Typical!' is a manifestation of what used to be called the English 'stiff upper lip': it is a complaint, but a complaint that also expresses a very English kind of grudging forebearance and restraint - a sort of grumpy, cynical stoicism."

To which yes! again - this is just what I see when I hear Doyle's so-called "complaints" about money etc, they're not real because he's also shown to be absolutely generous about things (like saying he'll pay for dinner in WTHCO, buying his round in SoTM etc). Ye gods I love Fox's book. I think I've recommended it to you before - well I do so again, and thrice so! *g*

In actual fact, we don't see Bodie buying a round, or offering to pay for dinner ever, but what interests me is the way that's glossed over by fanfic writers, and Doyle, the one we do see doing these things, gets the flak! Come to think of it - Doyle brings Bodie a "pressie" when he's on surveillance, and a sandwich (admittedly liver sausage!) too, but I don't think we ever see Bodie giving Doyle anything like that - oh, maybe the ice-creams in Blackout, and the drink in Stopover, although that's still after Doyle's first round - and yet this never seems to come up, Bodie is portrayed as the absolutely generous one!

The horse racing is another example of it all too - I'm never convinced that any of them have actually put money on a horse, it's more sort of banter and general interest, and Monday-morning-footballer sort of stuff - from the same place as "fantasy leagues" came from, but not really about the money and the prospect of gambling or winning big - at least in the lads' case, to me...

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

I'm never convinced that any of them have actually put money on a horse, it's more sort of banter and general interest

Hmm. In one episode Doyle says he's lost fifty p., doesn't he? Stirring of Dust? Heroes? Somewhere. I think he probably does gamble -- there's certainly nothing wrong with that -- but the fact that he's willing to gamble his hard-earned p. seems to indicate that money isn't really a concern.

And, of course, if they were serious gamblers there would undoubtedly be ramifications for the job.

Then again, CI5 is an awfully unorthodox law enforcement agency.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

In one episode Doyle says he's lost fifty p., doesn't he?
Yeah, he does (on Flirty Girt, I think, Stirring of Dust), but to me it doesn't sound like he means he actually bet on it, it's more a teasing, self-mocking, mocking-of-cultural-stereotypes thing that he's got going on in response to what Bodie said, and what Bodie said was a sort of stream-of-consciousness thing, because didn't he have the paper out when he said that - or am I thinking of a different ep? - and none of it really came over as serious in any way, more a way of passing the time on boring stakeout again...

Oh, and I got the impression from being there a few years later, that alot of blokes at the time followed various sports, including things like the racing etc, but it really was in a sports-pages kind of way more than as a serious occupation (although of course many did - the lads just don't strike me as talking about it in the same serious way that those blokes did...)

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

but to me it doesn't sound like he means he actually bet on it, it's more a teasing, self-mocking, mocking-of-cultural-stereotypes thing that he's got going on in response to what Bodie said, and what Bodie said was a sort of stream-of-consciousness thing, because didn't he have the paper out when he said that - or am I thinking of a different ep? - and none of it really came over as serious in any way, more a way of passing the time on boring stakeout again...


Interesting.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

We-ell, thank you! *g*

[squeeful.livejournal.com]

Mmhm, I don't think you're supposed to take him literally in those instances; they always read to me as dry sarcasm.

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

Maybe. I assume he gambles because most single guys I know -- myself included -- do. Did. Not in a my-house-is-at-stake way, but as harmless amusement. Fights, football, even the ponies, yeah.

Another one of those things that usually goes by the wayside once you settle down.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yeah, see that's actually what I mean - even if he did bet 50p on the race (which was admittedly alot more back then than it is now!) - it was just a harmless amusement that he didn't really care about, it was spoken about lightly, not in a complaining kind of way at all. So that whole scene, to me, wasn't about him being mean with money, so much as playing off a pastime that they both shared a vague, non-serious interest in, and teasing Bodie with it...

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

So that whole scene, to me, wasn't about him being mean with money, so much as playing off a pastime that they both shared a vague, non-serious interest in, and teasing Bodie with it...

Yeah, that's what I mean. Is/em> Doyle really shown as truly skinflint in certain fics? I don't think I've ever picked that up as a serious theme. I just assumed it was meant in the spirit of the episodes -- funny, quirky.

The selfishness -- that does show up in fics. I have actually read that, but apparently we're all in agreement that it's not canon-based. Or at least...the people on this discussion board don't seem to see it.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh, I hate it when the discussion concertinas like this! Especially cos it usually means lots of interesting posts, it's just fiddly!

don't think I've ever picked that up as a serious theme
Oh, I've seen it in lots of fics, that's why I asked the question in the first place!

Or at least...the people on this discussion board don't seem to see it
Well, as I've mentioned in one or two places, I can see bits and bobs of eps where Doyle's behaviour could be interpreted that way - in Fugitive, for example, he seems very cold about Bodie's captivity, for a long time - but it's clearly captured the imagination of some people, and seemed right to them, and I'd've loved to hear what they thought about it all!

Then again there's also the phenomenon of people writing Pros who've never actually seen an episode, they're writing it based on the selection of fanfic that they've read, which could be anything...