A Doyle-thing to think about...

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

There's something I've been wondering for a while, off and on, every time I read a fic that reminds me of it, and I'd love to hear what other people think about this. Can anyone tell me:

What is it about canon Doyle that has made fanfic writers portray him as:

a) incredibly selfish

b) incredibly tight with money

I'm really really curious - anyone got any ideas? Are there particular moments that stand out, where he behaves like that? Why do they stand out? Or is it some more general thing? How many people would agree with that portrayal?

It's not that I can't see what might make an author write Doyle like this, it's just that I can't see why he's so often portrayed that way. Whatcha think?

Comments

[squeeful.livejournal.com]

I have some ideas, but few of them are flattering to fandom. After this, I shall stop writing accidental alliterations.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

but few of them are flattering to fandom
So! Tell me anyway! My question was about something very specific, I'm not looking for answers that "flatter fandom" in any way at all! Go on, you know you want to... *g*

Love the icon, btw. And the alliteration...

[squeeful.livejournal.com]

All right, it's not flattering to the authors because in my opinion it's slopping writing. A shallow understanding of characters at best and at worst a picking and choosing of information. I find the same people willing to toss out certain behaviors as bad writing in the case of the screenwriters but stubbornly sticking to others because it suits their view.

Sometimes I feel it comes down to character favorites. I can usually tell and author's preference by how they treat the rest. Now, I've never seen it go as far as, say, the division between John Lennon fans vs the Paul McCartney ones, but people often feel that in liking one you have to dislike (or like less) the other. Play up Bodie's favorable traits and play down Doyle's. Don't know why. Maybe it's because they feel they have to justify their preference? Usually it results in the poor, suffering Bodie as martyr situation.

Other times it's more literary and I find it most in relationship-based rather than plot-based fics. Pick a lad as the central character, the protagonist, and the other (usually) has to be the antagonist. (Note, the antagonist does not have to be a villain or bad guy, just someone who stands in the way of the protagonist.) And easy way of creating conflict (and there has to be something wrong because otherwise it's just happy-go-lucky fluff) is to pull up one character's negative traits to conflict with the other's.

Sometimes it's a case of taking things too literally and not reading into, understanding, or even seeing things beyond the surface. A case of not asking Why? enough.

And still others have nothing to do with the show, but comes from an author having a situation they want to write and molding the characters to fit instead of having the plot coming from the characters.

It's a lack of subtly in writing and I see it in older fics as often as I do in newer ones.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but sloppy writing happens everywhere - and it's bound to happen in fandom, cos we don't write cos we're good at it, or because we want to get all aspirational about it (though lots of people do both) but because we want to read more stuff. And so people write more stuff, and alot of it's about the heart of it rather than the fair, well-written thoughtfulness of it, and that's just people...

Too true about the favourites too - it's generally quite easy to tell, and I think most people have a bias one way or another... But it makes for frustration when you don't share that bias! And there's the Bodie-martyr situation when he's the favourite, but it's often countered by the frail-beaten-up-Doyle situation... *eyes Jane from a distance*

I suspect alot of it is the literal thing that you mention, personally - and again I guess that's people, cos it happens all the time in real life too. Doesn't make it any less frustrating either! I wonder how much of it is laziness, and how much of it is seeing things differently/not even realising that there is a different why to consider... (I spent a meeting last week talking sideways on to someone like that, and it drove me mad - but at the end it was just clear to me that neither of us weren't trying, we were just coming at it from such different slants that we weren't meeting anywhere close... and I guess stuff like that is bound to cross into fandom). (And please ignore the sentence structure in that last.. erm... thing-that-is-loosely-described-as-part-of-a-sentence!)

Mostly - yeah, I totally agree... *g*

[squeeful.livejournal.com]

Oh, they don't have to have the same assessment as me, I just want to understand/be shown a little of how they got there so it makes sense to me.

Oh yes, the "staple my wrist to my forehead" syndrome!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, the "staple my wrist to my forehead" syndrome!
*Takes some time, after a long week (and because is fick), to figure that one out...* Huh?!

I just want to understand/be shown a little of how they got there so it makes sense to me.
That's why I asked my question, and no one's been able to tell me yet, so I think I shall stomp my foot and sulk for a little while... And, you know, then get bored and go watch some boyporn. Gotta love having a slash fandom...

[squeeful.livejournal.com]

Saying someone has their wrist stapled to their forehead is a derogatory way of saying they often act "oh woe is me". It means the back of their hand is permanently slapped to their forehead in the classic swooning gesture.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Aha! I was havering between woe-is-me, and doh!... *g* Cheers!

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

That's why I asked my question, and no one's been able to tell me yet, so I think I shall stomp my foot and sulk for a little while... And, you know, then get bored and go watch some boyporn. Gotta love having a slash fandom...

I guess maybe we don't understand what you're really asking. We've all explained where in canon we think the tradition of Doyle being a penny-pincher sprang from, and we've all agreed that we don't really see it as a flaw so much as a quirk. So...what were you really asking? Where it first originated in fics? You mean, what was the first fic to show Doyle as cheap?

Maybe you're just asking the wrong people. You should probably ask the people who wrote the fic that you're thinking about. They might have a completely different take on these same instances that we've been discussing.


And as for the selfishness thing, it seems like no one on this board saw it in canon -- flashes of selfishness, maybe, but nothing out of the ordinary that would explain the way Doyle is drawn in certain fics. But then again, that's true of so many fic traditions. Doyle as physically frail or weepy or you name it. A few canon tears and he's sobbing his way through a quarter of the fics out there.

You can track where the seeds of the theme might originate in canon -- we've all seen the same episodes -- but how can anyone really explain why certain themes are attractive to some writers and not others? Apparently tears and fragility is really attractive (or just fun to write about) for some women.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I guess maybe we don't understand what you're really asking.
Oh, I don't think that's the problem, I think everyone's given their honest answers - just not the people with different opinions. And I wasn't serious about the stomping, either! No, I asked the question because presumably, considering the number of fics that are written along those two particular themes, there are (or perhaps were) a fair number of people who saw those scenarios strongly enough to write about them, and my hypothesis was therefore that there would also be a fair number of people out there who understood where that pov was coming from. If they are, they're not the people who've responded here, but that's okay.

I don't expect that any one person in particular can give me "an answer", and that's not what I'm looking for! It's not that I don't understand the various processes etc, it's that I'm interested in hearing different thoughts and opinions to my own, and that's what I was looking for.

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

I don't expect that any one person in particular can give me "an answer", and that's not what I'm looking for! It's not that I don't understand the various processes etc, it's that I'm interested in hearing different thoughts and opinions to my own, and that's what I was looking for.

Maybe you could throw it out to Pros Lit or one of the writing lists? Seriously. I really wish someone would initiate discussion there, and it seems like there's a larger possibility for debate on a list like ProsLit where you've got so many writers.