A Doyle-thing to think about...

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

There's something I've been wondering for a while, off and on, every time I read a fic that reminds me of it, and I'd love to hear what other people think about this. Can anyone tell me:

What is it about canon Doyle that has made fanfic writers portray him as:

a) incredibly selfish

b) incredibly tight with money

I'm really really curious - anyone got any ideas? Are there particular moments that stand out, where he behaves like that? Why do they stand out? Or is it some more general thing? How many people would agree with that portrayal?

It's not that I can't see what might make an author write Doyle like this, it's just that I can't see why he's so often portrayed that way. Whatcha think?

Comments

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Very ignorant about fannish stuff in general.
This from the bloke who is writing a book about it all?! And aspiring to write analytical essays?! Come on, now... *g*

*is careful not to answer Magenta's question*

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

God almighty! I'm not writing a book on fan fiction. Not even on how to write fan fiction. For one thing, I wouldn't be qualified.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Lol - sorry, it seemed to me that you were talking about writing m/m fiction in the context of people writing fanfiction etc in your discussions about your book, so I just assumed that both things were being included!

And having just read your reply to M below - is it the term "fanon" you've not come across before, then?

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

Lol - sorry, it seemed to me that you were talking about writing m/m fiction in the context of people writing fanfiction etc in your discussions about your book, so I just assumed that both things were being included!

Well, there's some crossover, of course, and M/M does spring from the literary tradition of fan fiction, which is a vastly different tradition than gay fiction, but...

I wouldn't have even thought about addressing stuff towards fan fiction if I hadn't had so many fan fiction writers asking about certain points. But I just talk about them from a general writing standpoint, because fan fiction is so...it really is its own art form.

And the only fandom I know at all is Pros. Which is probably -- I'm guessing -- not typical of fandoms in general. It's kind of a classic, isn't it? One of the oldest?

And having just read your reply to M below - is it the term "fanon" you've not come across before, then?

I'm sure it's been explained to me, but I keep forgetting what "fanon" is, and I don't think I've heard "meme" before. Or at least not as it applies to fan fiction.

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

I'd describe a meme as an idea that replicates itself, or is inherently infectious *g*. It might start out with one person having one idea, and then others who have read that idea pick it up in one form or another and repeat it. In fan fiction I guess memes could be story themes, catchphrases that take off and reappear all over the place (I'd guess often without the authors being conscious that they've picked up something from someone else), or character descriptions .

Then there's the other sort of meme that clutters up your flist from time to time *g*.

You made a comment about Jane in reply to my earlier post. Very witty *g* . No, I was kidding a bit when I said I suspect Jane - but she's been blamed for many things, what's one more?

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

Then there's the other sort of meme that clutters up your flist from time to time *g*.

Ah. I get it. Speaking personally, my flist IS all meme all the time. *g*

You made a comment about Jane in reply to my earlier post. Very witty *g* . No, I was kidding a bit when I said I suspect Jane - but she's been blamed for many things, what's one more?

Well, all kidding aside -- and I realize this is sort of an unpopular opinion -- I think Jane was an amazing writer. Sometimes amazing for the wrong things, but often -- very often -- for the right ones.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Replying to this bit here rather than in the new post I started:

So... your book is about m/m fiction, which you say has arisen from fan fiction rather than from gay fiction? It doesn't include both as far as you're concerned? Interesting... Plus of course it would mean the book was mostly focussed on female writers rather than male (although of course there are male m/m fanfic writers too)... I did notice that you seemed to be talking about female writers in the excerpt that you posted, so I did wonder!

Fanon is (roughly) the body of knowledge/understanding about a show in a fandom that arises less from the actual canonical episodes themselves than from the thoughts/imaginings of the fans about that show. The Game is one example - there's no canon for it, but it's widely referenced through Pros fandom. Bodie's fondness for swiss roll is another - we only see him eat one once, in fact. What I was asking about was the fanon of Doyle being tight and/or selfish. It comes in varying degrees and extents...

And KWS's said about memes - they appear in flists from time to time, the astrology one is going around just now. They're generally just a bit of fun, in that sense, but in the "more serious" sense, I guess the various examples of fanon can be memes in themselves. Which again, really, was what I was wondering about - what thoughts was it that spread the "meme" that Doyle is selfish/tight?!

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

So... your book is about m/m fiction, which you say has arisen from fan fiction rather than from gay fiction? It doesn't include both as far as you're concerned? Interesting... Plus of course it would mean the book was mostly focussed on female writers rather than male (although of course there are male m/m fanfic writers too)... I did notice that you seemed to be talking about female writers in the excerpt that you posted, so I did wonder!

I explore it a bit in the book, but not a lot -- and I won't take up time here with off-topic -- but very (VERY) few male writers would agree that they write M/M fiction. In some ways it's simply a matter of semantics, in others it's sensibility. Some publishers differentiate, many don't. I'd assumed, when I began writing the book, that gay and M/M would be proved to be the same thing by a different name. By the end, I was convinced they are quite different, but with quite a bit of overlay -- and part of what convinced was hanging around the Pros community.

I've learned quite a bit over the past few months. I think it's the kind of thing you have to experience (fandom) to understand. Previous to this, I would no more have considered reading fan fiction -- let alone joining a fan community and spending hours reading and replying to posts -- then I would have joined a list for Church of LDS. It would have seemed too...alien. Too arcane. *g*

But I've enjoyed and learned from my time in Prosdom. Try and explain that, though, to anyone with no experience of fandom!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh, I tend to go "off-topic" whenever it seems interesting, and I think we're buried far enough down here that most people won't be bothered by it unless they're tracking in the first place - and then a simple delete works (when it happens to me!)

I do understand the differentiation between "m/m" and "gay" writing, and that there seems to be alot behind that issue/debate. Perhaps this is what's confusing me then: so your book is about m/m writing, which is predominantly written by women, but it's not about fanfic? Is that right?! I must admit that I'm very curious, in that case, about why your publishers chose to ask a man to write about a predominantly female-led genre? (I'm not criticising anyone with that, you least of all, I'm just observing and wondering!)

Know what you mean about fandom too - I have some friends who recognise that it's a much wider world than they at first assume, and others who realise that in fact the "normal" world is often alot smaller than the fandom world, but in general..?!

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

so your book is about m/m writing, which is predominantly written by women, but it's not about fanfic? Is that right?!

Exactly. Because, you see, there's a huge M/M industry that exists outside of fan fic - which in fact, often attempts to distance itself from fan fic, although many of the writers (and even publishers) migrated from fandoms.

M/M is publishing for money. It's all about getting professional recognition from the publishing world. Fan fic is the opposite. It's done for love, not money, and sincerity and enthusiasm count every bit as much -- possibly more -- than writing skill or technique. Which isn't to say that there aren't fabulous fan fic writers because of course they are. Some of the best M/M writing I've seen is in Pros.

I'm very curious, in that case, about why your publishers chose to ask a man to write about a predominantly female-led genre? (I'm not criticising anyone with that, you least of all, I'm just observing and wondering!)

Because -- at the risk of sounding horrifically conceited -- while I'm ignorant about fandom and ficdom, I'm a respected, experienced, multi-published, and award-winning writer -- in both M/M and gay fiction. I know writing. More importantly, I'm acknowledged to know writing.*g*

And in the end, that's what a writing book is about.

Now if I could just convince you lot!

Seriously, the idea is that I would have the -- er -- street cred to carry this off.

And while being male is a liability in fandom, it's considered a plus in the world of M/M where women writers fret a lot over what men "really" think, etc.

I know, I know. Crazy. If only my work was as popular as it is...uh..."respected." *g*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh, I so know/see the difference between writing fanfic and published writing of any kind! The many, many differences... *g*

And - lol - as I said, my comment about why you wasn't a criticism of you or your credentials, it's just such old hat to have a man be given the "authority" (for want of a better word) over female-dominated fields... I mean, in that female-dominated genre, are there so few female "respected, experienced, multi-published, and award-winning writers"? (Again, not a criticism, just wondering! Can we always assume that I'm just wondering, by any chance? I promise, if I do want to criticise you, I'll do it... *g*)

Hmmn - here's a question (and my apologies if you answer it in your book!) so if you're a man (*g*) how do you differentiate what you write as "m/m" fiction rather than as "gay" fiction? Do you define it as such, or is there something about it that means outsiders/publishers/audiences etc have given it the "m/m" rather than "gay" label? (And I'm completely ignoring the fact that I hate any such labelling here - it's more the mechanics of it that I'm interested in here!) You say you write both - are the both under the same name? How is one defined as one thing, and the other as... erm... then other?! Know what I mean?

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

And - lol - as I said, my comment about why you wasn't a criticism of you or your credentials, it's just such old hat to have a man be given the "authority" (for want of a better word) over female-dominated fields... I mean, in that female-dominated genre, are there so few female "respected, experienced, multi-published, and award-winning writers"? (Again, not a criticism, just wondering! Can we always assume that I'm just wondering, by any chance? I promise, if I do want to criticise you, I'll do it... *g*)

It's a valid question. But in all honesty, no, there aren't -- or don't appear to be -- women with my particular credentials. No, let me refine that thought. There are very well respected women writers of gay lit (far more respected and noted than me), but they don't deign to write M/M fiction.

Because M/M fiction is *romance* fiction, and I'm sure you're aware that romance writers -- in any field -- get little respect.

So I'm this weird anomaly. I've got the chops, but I happen to...well, love romance. I'm willing to write it under my own name. The same name I kiss my mother with. *g*

Hmmn - here's a question (and my apologies if you answer it in your book!) so if you're a man (*g*) how do you differentiate what you write as "m/m" fiction rather than as "gay" fiction? Do you define it as such, or is there something about it that means outsiders/publishers/audiences etc have given it the "m/m" rather than "gay" label? (And I'm completely ignoring the fact that I hate any such labelling here - it's more the mechanics of it that I'm interested in here!)

Truthfully, I don't know if I adequately explain it in the book. And even if I think I have, I don't know that everyone would be satisfied or agree with my explanation.

Personally, I think it genuinely *is* a matter of sensibility, of the emotional approach and content to the stories. And I base this theory on the number of letters I get (and have received for years) from women readers (at least, they *say* they're women) telling me why my books are different from other gay (mystery) writers.

It seemed to boil down to the way I handled the relationship between my series protags. The emotional content of the story. Granted, this also seemed to be what my male readers (at least, they *say* they're male) especially liked.*g*

You say you write both - are the both under the same name? How is one defined as one thing, and the other as... erm... then other?! Know what I mean?

One very interesting thing that came out of my interviews with publishers -- and I ended up not using even half of it in the book because it got a little insulting at times -- was that most gay male writers can't seem to make the jump to succesfully writing M/M fiction. Or at least it's harder for them than it is for women to turn around and successfully write "gay" fiction.

Are women better at literary and emotional mimicry? I don't know. But the common complaint about male writers was that they were typically focused on mechanics, that their work was "cold" and lacked emotional depth and detail. I'm generalizing here, paraphrasing, but that was the common -- disconcerting -- message. Too common to ignore, even had I wanted to.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I happen to...well, love romance. I'm willing to write it under my own name. The same name I kiss my mother with. *g*
ROTFLMAO!!

Hmmn - okay, still getting my head around this. So the difference here between "gay" writing and "m/m" writing is that "m/m" is the romance version - the storyline is relationship-based rather than anything else. And women write both "gay" and "m/m" fic - now that's interesting, definition-wise. So "gay" writing isn't written by someone who's gay, and it's not about a gay relationship (cos that'd be m/m) it's... effectively everything else, where at least one character happens to be gay?

Clearly all areas that I need to read more widely in! I used to have so much time to read! Where did that all go?!