The Silence of Knives - and your lads

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Title: Silence of Knives
Author: Kathy Keegan
Link to story: Not online
Zine: Fantazine 5
Review:

My first thought on glancing at this story was - oh cool, fic set in Russia, because the action starts out in a place called Vazyabinsk, Cimarosa. By the second paragraph though I had been introduced to Bridgeman North Quarry, Montrose and Yokosuka, in the third paragraph I was told that "the atmosphere was oxygen poor", and by the fourth we were playing with low orbits. AU science fiction, then - set in a highly detailed, clearly conceived futuristic world.

And it really is. There are lots of secondary characters, a past for each of the lads that could be worked up as novels in their own rights (see below!), and oodles and oodles of historical, political and any-other-cal information. The plot is fairly intricate, and weaves from planet to planet via various space-empire-dangers in a reasonably realistic way, considering the genre.

The thing is... (*g*) While the story was good and meaty, and the characters well fleshed out, Bodie and Doyle didn't really seem like Bodie and Doyle to me, and that got me thinking - what exactly is it that makes the lads - the lads? And how far can an author go with characterisation and background before they stop being "the lads" that we might recognise?

Obviously it'll be different for everyone, but I wonder if there are basic characterisations that we miss if they're not there?

In "Silence of the Knives", for example, Doyle is an assassin. He's got a bit of a conscience about it, and it's explained that he's weighed up the good he does against the evil of killing etc, but basically - he's an assassin. He's paid to kill people. For me this is one of the most un-Doyle things that I can think of - in fact, for all Bodie was a mercenary, it's an un-Bodie thing as well. I'm sure there are lots of ways in which it might be made to work, and the reasoning given here is sound etc, but somehow, coupled with the other traits the author has given Doyle, for me it doesn't. Doyle is interested in money as an end in itself. He consciously, purposefully, works himself into a passion about the evil of the man he's sent to kill, but the bottom line is that he's doing it for the money - although he claims "I'm not a murderer". Despite this he's apparently dedicated himself to a "master"/guru/religion. Oh, and this means that he can "turn off pain" whenever he wants to. He's pretty much perfect at everything he does. All of which makes my head spin with not-Doyle-ness.

Bodie's loyalties, on the other hand, seem much more fluid, and somehow more socially idealistic. Bodie is effectively a spy, and is stronger in triple-think and understanding political machinations than Doyle is, which doesn't seem quite right to me either. (Not that I think ep Bodie is an idiot, but if it was going to be either of them, then Doyle always seemed a bit more interested in that sort of thing...) And as I flick back through the pages of the story, I'm not finding anything that distinguishes Bodie from any other hero - he's not exactly not Bodie, but there's nothing that seems to make him Bodie either...

So it all rang a bit strangely to me, which made me wonder what seemed to be missing about our lads that I need to see in a story. I think that, for me right now (cos we all change our minds and evolve our thoughts, right?), at the heart of my lads-verse:

Doyle is a highly skilled agent. He's got a social conscience, with which he struggles to some extent, although CI5 obviously wins. He's quick and strong, but strangely more likely to get hurt than Bodie is - maybe because he's more impetuous? He's got a scary temper - a bit like a beserker maybe *g* - and he's fairly violent despite that conscience, so he's far from a saint. He's thoughtful and keen to find out about all sorts - a detective-type mind that extends to other things, perhaps, and he's always active with something or other, physically, or else tinkering with the bikes etc. He feels for people, whether they've been hurt by society or by an individual, and we see him emotionally hurt in the eps as well. He feels physical pain too, and shows it. He's very familiar with London, has many friends and acquaintances, is very observant, and has a very good memory. He's sharp, but occasionally absent-minded, as we all can be (well, how else do you lose a car? *g*), and is fairly impatient with people who are slower than he is, or between him and something he wants.

Bodie is also a highly skilled and knowledgable agent. He seems less likely to get himself in trouble than Doyle, and outwardly more staunch when he does, but he's also often sensitive to the hurts of individuals, and to being hurt himself. He takes things a bit less seriously, outwardly at at least, although he's just as dedicated to CI5 as Doyle is, and seems to have an easier rapport with Cowley, so I can see him being loyal to Cowley as a person, whereas Doyle might be more loyal to CI5 as an entity. He seems more laid back than Doyle, somehow, although he's just as fit and active... He's well-read, possibly more so than Doyle, although more as a fact of life than as something he's trying to do. Doyle seems to strive more than Bodie, somehow, but they both come out about the same in the end. He's more likely to generalise than Doyle is? Oh, and for all he claimed "It's usually you has to pull me off" to Doyle, his temper, and what he does with it, seems alot more under control.

Both of them seem to be regular blokes - with skills that we don't see all around us in our everyday lives, but with their own everyday lives nevertheless. They're not perfect, they make mistakes, and they want Cowley's approval, and to know that what they're doing makes a difference, because they're not always sure about what they're doing themselves. Neither of them is shut off from emotion, either their own or other peoples', although, like most blokes, they tough it out rather than make a big weepy deal about it. They're casual about alot of things, and not very likely to talk in big, long, explain-y sentences to each other, because alot of their understanding is done via body language. And they've both got alot of self-confidence!

So - I think those are all things that I look for, even if just in the background, in a story. If the lads seem to veer too far from this, then I don't feel like I'm reading Pros fic. The characteristics don't have to be explained, or described, or even acted upon, it's more that if they act too differently from these characteristics, then I'm not convinced it's our lads...

And all that said, there's probably loads of things that I've missed out too, and as soon as someone says "Well, my Bodie..." I'll be jumping, pointing, and going Ooh, yes!

So... I'm curious. (*g*) What's at the very heart of your Bodie and Doyle, that you can't do without in a fic? What are the fics, especially AUs, that do and don't convince you that it's Bodie and Doyle in the story? And did you get extremely frustrated reading my ultra-long ramble up above?! (Sorry about that - though of course I'm going to post it anyway... *g*)

Oh - and one last thing. The Silence of Knives is zine only (as far as I know) but for a general feel of the story you can visit Mel Keegan's site and read about the Hellgate series - many echoes happening here, and the cover of "Deep Sky" makes me go hmmn... *g*

Comments

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

My Bodie and Doyle are pretty close to yours, especially the being regular blokes and not being cut off from their emotions. And, yes, lots of self-confidence! And while there are those exceptions where I can truly love a story where Bodie and Doyle aren't "my" Bodie and Doyle, on the whole I prefer those stories where they're closer to my own vision of them. I don't want them neurotic or, even worse, psychotic. I suppose it comes down to being able to admire them.

Yet in an AU I can accept a certain amount of change in that, though I prefer them as close as possible to the original. Something along the lines of "Harlequin Airs." But as long as it is supposed to be Bodie and Doyle I can go with just about anything...as long as it's decently written. Really, my ability to buy a B/D story stops when it's no longer Bodie and Doyle. Like when it's Cade or Deed or whoever. I've never understood the attraction of those stories. Sort of the ultimate AUs.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I can totally accept a stretching of their characters in an AU, but... well, when you say "when it's no longer Bodie and Doyle" - do you mean just in name? So as long as someone calls them "Bodie and Doyle", and says that one has curly hair and one short hair etc, then it works for you?

Cross-overs are a bit weird to me too, cos it generally means that one or the other of our lads has been dealt with so that they can't be together! I can get over that, and enjoy a story if it's good, if I know the other character being crossed-over. The only Chief/Pros crossover I really like though is the Jack Reuben Darcy one, for very specific reasons hinging on my first sentence - although I just saw a description of a similarly plotted story that might work for me too... Now if only I could remember where I saw it!

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I can totally accept a stretching of their characters in an AU, but... well, when you say "when it's no longer Bodie and Doyle" - do you mean just in name? So as long as someone calls them "Bodie and Doyle", and says that one has curly hair and one short hair etc, then it works for you?

No, not quite, though, truthfully, I can't say it's that far off. I suppose the best example would be "The Cook and the Warehouseman." I love that story but there's no way I see Doyle in "Ray." Yet I can go along with the idea that it is Doyle because the story is so well written. So I can't really say that I won't buy a story where Bodie or Doyle isn't "my" Bodie or Doyle because I can. Just not all the time. The writing makes all the difference in the world. In other words, there doesn't seem to be a hard and fast rule as to what Pros stories I'll like...other than that Bodie and Doyle have to end up together.

Cross-overs are a bit weird to me too, cos it generally means that one or the other of our lads has been dealt with so that they can't be together! I can get over that, and enjoy a story if it's good, if I know the other character being crossed-over.

Ah, see, and I can't. It's just too depressing to think one of them has died or never was.

The only Chief/Pros crossover I really like though is the Jack Reuben Darcy one, for very specific reasons hinging on my first sentence - although I just saw a description of a similarly plotted story that might work for me too... Now if only I could remember where I saw it!

I haven't read that one, even though I really like "Saints and Miracle." I think my biggest problem with stories that cross with other shows, then turn out to be not exactly crossovers, is that there's often inconvenient offspring to have to explain. I've yet to read an explanation I particularly cared for. And while I can take a separation of a couple of years, at the most, more than that and it starts to get, well, depressing. It's probably pretty obvious that I usually prefer my angst in small amounts. :-)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh, you should so read The Tangled Web (http://www.thecircuitarchive.com/tca/archive/4/thetangled.html) by Jack Reuben Darcy. There are no kids, or missing twins, or bizarre cousins involved, I promise. Trust me! There's a bit of angst, but it turns out alright in the end!

[msmoat.livejournal.com]

Gosh, what do I look for, that must be there, for an AU-version of B&D to succeed? I'm not sure I can even articulate it. (And you'll note that I'm skivving on preparing for a class because, you know, I gave up and have to get back to talking about Pros!)

I'm a lot more tolerant of characterizations in AUs than in CI5-based stories. For the latter, well, it needs to adhere to canon for me. For the most part. But with an AU, I would expect the lads to be somewhat different, given a different background/world/life experience. But, yes, there needs to be an essence there that speaks of Bodie and Doyle for me. It can't be just the names or the implication. But what that essence is...I don't know. I see it in "Larton", where a lot of people don't. In Ellis Ward's various AUs. In "Suitable Gravity". And yet the characterizations in all of those are very different. I suppose it's just some core aspects of the characters...Bodie's loyalty and self-sufficiency, living by his own code. Doyle's integrity. Their toughness (I rather like seeing how that plays out when they haven't been tested before). And, especially, how they relate to each other. I need their relationship, above all. The banter and the sarkiness; the trust; the inevitable attraction while, at the same time, they resist it. I need Bodie/Doyle.

Give me at least some of all that, and I'll go anywhere with you. *g*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yeay for talking Pros! Just think, you'll go back to work fresher and brighter and all Pros-ed up, right?! *g*

I'm with you in seeing the essence (good word!) of B and D in Larton - it's very them, even when alot of things are turned upside down, somehow. And yes, for Bodie's loyalty and self-sufficiency, living by his own code. Doyle's integrity. Their toughness! I think that's there in every story that I love, even if nothing else is. I can even go with Bodie being the artist in Larton, rather than Doyle, because it's not the artistry as such that's part of Doyle, it's the... appreciation of another level in life, whereas when Bodie draws it's very him - a casual, almost throw-away talent that he uses because Doyle asks him to, and Doyle can convince him to almost anything! Except that Larton Bodie has limits just like ep Bodie, and won't let Doyle encroach on them... (which is why, of course, doormat Bodie doesn't work for me). And yeah to their relationship too...

Hmmn - I'm liking Bodie's loyalty and self-sufficiency, living by his own code. Doyle's integrity. Their toughness more and more actually. Fics where I haven't seen all this don't quite make it for me - "Silence of the Knives", "Unfinished Melody" by Jane (Doyle the not-tough Vampire)... erm... the "Snowbound" stories by M.Fae Glasgow, because Doyle's integrity and toughness are both compromised - oh, "Consequences" for the same reason, plus they're lacking Bodie's loyalty as well come to think of it...

Comparing same-genre AU fics... "Suitable Gravity" and "Cook and the Warehouseman" both work for me, and they both contain all the traits that you mention, even if Doyle is kept in the dark in the first one, and an alien prince in the second! Hmmn... ve-ery interesting... *g*

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

Granted I don't read a lot of AU, but if I did I would be looking for most of the same qualities (and weaknesses) you mention -- and it's absolutely essential in the CI5-based stories.

For me their professionalism is a big part of the charm -- and their competency. And I think this is often what's missing in fics. Canon-Bodie and Doyle follow through on the job, regardless of what they might be feeling personally, and while they do occasionally fail or get bloodied doing it (Doyle in particular) it's generally not from lack of skill or ability. It's just the nature of the dangerous job they do.

Their humor is important to me. Not that I want to see them skidding on banana peels or anything, but that low-key easy banter, the wisecracks under fire, the wry humor with which they regard each other and their world. The humor isn't just trimmings to me, it's fundamental to what connects them; it's a shared world view, maybe a skewed view, but shared. They've got chemistry together, and a lot of that chemistry is they amuse the hell out of each other (and us).

Bodie's teasing and mischeviousness -- Doyle's snarkiness.

And while they do watch each other's backs, Bodie's understated protectiveness is very much a part of their dynamic. I'm not sure if anyone's ever counted how many times Bodie's saved Doyle's ass -- arse -- versus the other way around, but my impression is that it's about two to one -- if only because, as you point out, despite his abilities and wit, Doyle does seem to get into trouble more frequently. Bodie seems physically tougher or better able to endure pain, and a lot more hard-headed. More centered? Focused? Or maybe he just doesn't wear himself out overthinking everything.

Most importantly, as msmoat notes, it's how they relate to each other -- it's the relationship between them that makes them interesting to me and unique. Otherwise, especially in AU, they devolve into basic (classic) character types. And the key elements of that relationship are knowledge, trust and loyalty. Kind of like a good marriage. They have absolute trust in each's abilities and skills, they know each other's weaknesses and strengths, and compensate accordingly, they know what they other will do before the other has even thought of it. The trust is total and absolute, and in canon at least, seems to be justified. And without a doubt they come first for each other always.

Sexual rapaciousness also seems a big part of their characterisations, too, now that I think of it.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Hmmn - not sure about Bodie being physically tougher or better able to endure pain you know, it's just that we don't seem to see Bodie in that state half as often... I mean, he does faint with the collarbone (?) at the end of Blackout, just as Doyle passes out when he's been seriously wounded. They both survive beatings. Bodie might not look as affected by his at the end of Fugitive as Doyle does at the end of Klansmen or Man Without a Past, but they're both walking/fighting/defiant wounded despite them...

Aha! I've got my copy of "Professional Insight" with me - yeay! (Highly recommended, by the way, and still available from the excellent Pear Tree Press (http://www.palelyloitering.com/sources/DistribPearTreePress.html)!) Right, here we go:

Gunshot wounds: Bodie 0, Doyle 2
Knife wounds: Bodie 2, Doyle 0

Even so far! The next is where it gets interesting...

Broken bones and/or hospitalisation: Bodie 1, Doyle 3.

Hmmn - but then that's only when we're led to believe that, and doesn't count things like Bodie's hands in Close Quarters. Pros Insight has only summarised those injuries, but if I count down the descriptions they've given for each ep then I get:

Bodie 16, Doyle 16!!! Ha!!! I wonder if that was done on purpose! I've not counted the injuries they both sustain at the same time - the stun gas and the bomb blast in Purging, but otherwise that's each individual injury that Pros Insight lists!

Personally I'd say that Doyle is prettier when he's suffering seriously (Isn't that awful - but you know what I mean?) but no less likely to recover quickly/tougher than Bodie... *g* Which is why it bugs me when he is portrayed as a wimp, because, as msmoat said, they're tough!

I'd like to count up the saving-each-other's-bottoms thing too... don't think that's in Pros Insight. Hmmn - Bodie saves Doyle from being shot in Backtrack, Doyle saves Bodie in Ojuka. Erm... any more for any more?!

Yes, the humour! The not-taking-it-too-seriously thing, which I think is partly English, but partly them as well... And there is fic that falls down on that, I think, that makes them very earnest... alot of Jane's stuff actually, I think... And that they do trust each other - despite Involvement and Fall Girl...

Oh, and look at me, taking their sexual rapaciousness for granted! Yeah, they are both very responsive, aren't they! Hmmn - Bodie less so, perhaps, but of course I'd put that down to the fact that he's got his mind on Doyle most of the time... *g* (Look at Female Factor!)

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

Hmmn - not sure about Bodie being physically tougher or better able to endure pain you know, it's just that we don't seem to see Bodie in that state half as often...

I meant that in purely relative terms. Doyle is tough as nails and certainly resilient, but he does seem to feel pain more obviously than Bodie, and he does seem to worry about getting killed more than Bodie -- or at least shows his fear in little flinches, winces, etc. They may technically be injured the same amount of times, but Doyle's injuries seem worse somehow -- or maybe, as you say, it's all in the way he suffers so beautifully -- and noticeably.

Getting shot in the heart for example, seems a little more drastic than Bodie's stabbing, despite Bodie's feverish writhing. We see Doyle in a sling, on crutches, in hospital -- he gets all the stage props indicating serious injury. Even when Bodie is hospitalized in Klansmen there's a noticeable lack of any medical detail of any kind. A pretty nurse, a wet cloth and a few stitches seem to do it for Bodie while we've got Doyle on a ventilator, etc.

Which isn't to say that Doyle isn't just as tough in his own way, especially since he's so regularly injured in ways that would probably cripple anyone else.

Personally I'd say that Doyle is prettier when he's suffering seriously (Isn't that awful - but you know what I mean?) but no less likely to recover quickly/tougher than Bodie... *g* Which is why it bugs me when he is portrayed as a wimp, because, as msmoat said, they're tough!

Absolutely. I wouldn't argue that -- in fact, I guess you could make a case for him being tougher considering the fact that he's able to put his concerns and low pain threshold aside and jump into any fight going.

I'd like to count up the saving-each-other's-bottoms thing too... don't think that's in Pros Insight. Hmmn - Bodie saves Doyle from being shot in Backtrack, Doyle saves Bodie in Ojuka. Erm... any more for any more?!

Well, let's see. Off-hand, Bodie saves Doyle in Looking After Annie, Blind Run, Hunter/Hunted, A Stirring of Dust, Involvement -- and given the gravity of Doyle's wound and the time factor -- Discovered in a Graveyard.

Yes, the humour! The not-taking-it-too-seriously thing, which I think is partly English,

Holy moly. I'd have to argue with THAT. Wisecracks under pressure are about as typically American as you get -- maybe it's a North American thing -- I'd hate to insult the Canadians -- and in that case I guess you could debate whether it has to do with an Anglo heritage, but...sheesh. ;-)

but partly them as well... And there is fic that falls down on that, I think, that makes them very earnest... alot of Jane's stuff actually, I think...

A lot of everyone's stuff, frankly. Humor is pretty hard to do, especially if the writer is trying to balance with angst -- and angst does seem to be more popular than laughs in Pros.

Banter is even harder -- partly because it's as much about timing as it is being funny.

And that they do trust each other - despite Involvement and Fall Girl...

I like the little message Doyle leaves for Bodie on the interrogation tape in Fall Girl. It's a nice touch. And of course in neither case do we know what the other would have ultimately done had things gone the wrong way for the partner under fire.

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

Yes, the humour! The not-taking-it-too-seriously thing, which I think is partly English,


Holy moly. I'd have to argue with THAT. Wisecracks under pressure are about as typically American as you get -- maybe it's a North American thing -- I'd hate to insult the Canadians -- and in that case I guess you could debate whether it has to do with an Anglo heritage, but...sheesh. ;-)

Actually, this is still wrong -- what about the Irish and the Scots and the Welsh? ENGLISH???? I mean, at least include the rest of Britain. ;-D

[angel-ci5.livejournal.com]

Bodie less so, perhaps, but of course I'd put that down to the fact that he's got his mind on Doyle most of the time... *g* (Look at Female Factor!)
In FF though, Bodie's smooching with his bint, (::spits::) whilst Doyle just plays backgammon with his - doesn't that make Doyle less rapacious and responsive? Or at least less interested! LOL
(Sorry, I'm butting in as usual! ;-))

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Butt away, I always think that's half the fun of these discussions... *g*

doesn't that make Doyle less rapacious and responsive
Hee - I always put that down to different techniques! Bodie goes straight in for the kill, whereas Doyle tries to impress his girls by being gentle and thoughtful and taking it slowly - and then going in for the kill... (and he's rather nuzzly in that whole backgammon scene, iirc!) *g*

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

By the way, you're right about the Hellgate series, although weirdly enough I never consciously registered the Doyle/Bodie similarities until I discovered Pros fandom.

In fact, I think the Doyle/Bodie similarities are pretty superficial in her work -- mostly just appearance and pairing -- and the pairing works against her in a straight novel format because the reader is waiting to see how these two connect, what the conflicts will be, etc., and she's got them instantly working smoothly together (and in love) as though it were a fan fic where this instant connection could be taken for granted.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Well, some of her stories are word-for-word old Pros stories (I know, I've compared!), which puts me off reading the "new" versions, to be honest, cos as you say, when I know it was once B/D, then that's what I'm looking for, and so I'm bound to be disappointed! But with something like "The Silence of Knives" I don't mind so much - or even at all! - because I didn't really see B/D in there in the first place... I'd be dead interested in her process of moving from Pros - OF, actually, how she chose what she'd alter, if it was already happening before she officially changed their names (!) etc! (I can see what you mean about working against her the other way too, mind, though of course I can't read it from that pov any more!)

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

I love canon Bodie and Doyle, and I like seeing them in a CI5 story. In an AU, I'm willing to read and see if it clicks with me. Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. Oh, really definitive! But I find I have to actually read the story (or try to read the story) before I can honestly decide. I've been rec'd some stuff that makes me wonder where Bodie and Doyle are, and others that people seem to dislike that I've been able to buy into. So it is hard to specifically say what works.

I can say that Ray being portrayed as cruel, manipulative and callous doesn't work for me. Neither does Bodie being portrayed as a doormat or a ruthless killer. I don't see that in canon, so I don't want to read that in any type of story, canon-based or AU. No one would ever convince me that Doyle is an assassin unless he was somehow brainwashed and then discovered what was happening somehow, and the story ended with an outcome where he realizes he's been unwillingly corrupted and fixes the problem.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, I totally have to read a story before I know whether I like it too! *g* No, but really, I hate the idea of being closed to a story before I've tried reading it - even if I only get as far as the first paragraph!

I'm with you about Doyle not being naturally cruel, manipulative or callous, or Bodie being a ruthless killer - though I can see them going there if pushed to it in the right way. Then it's all about motivation! But I can't see Bodie being a doormat, at least not beyond a certain point... They're both tough as has been said above!

And hee! - there's some good lads-brainwashed-to-want-to-kill-each-other fic!

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

And hee! - there's some good lads-brainwashed-to-want-to-kill-each-ot her fic!

Really? Could you throw some titles out? Sounds like fun.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I knew someone would ask that! I'm rubbish at remembering titles on the hop... erm... The one that I'm mostly thinking about is the one where Bodie's been programmed to kill Doyle, and Doyle takes him away and ties him to a stake to de-programme him... I wanna say it's by an American writer, someone who reminds me of Gwyn Rhys, or Morgan Dawn, or that crowd, but for the life of me I can't find it!

There's also The Return by Ellis Ward (http://hatstand.slashcity.net/ellis/return.html), and I'm a big EW fan, so I'll recommend that one, though I can never remember the end, cos the first time I printed it off I only came away with half, and I didn't realise there was more for ages...

And... oh, there's one in a zine too, which starts with Doyle thinking Bodie's dead, then finding that he's actually undercover for Cowley...

[angel-ci5.livejournal.com]

I agree with msmoat about needing the "essence" of the lads in an AU, (though I'm far too inarticulate to actually say what I think that is!) and after that it depends on the author's adaptation of Bodie's and Doyle's characters in that different environment.

To me it seems B&D lend themselves particularly well to AUs, our boys are extremely adaptable! *g* But then maybe that's due to the skill of the writers. A bit of both, I think, probabaly.

Fics where the characterisations work for me include Suitable Gravity, Transients, On Guard (does that count as AU?), The Secrets Beneath, Larton, oh, and my all time favourite The Birdwatchers Guide. I'm sure there are others, but they're the ones which spring to mind.
BTW I Love AUs, just in case that's not clear! *g*

May I just add my vote against the "Doormat Bodie" and "Wimp Dolye" characterisations please? That's definitely not how I see them, in fact it's quite the opposite.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

But I want to know what that essence is for people! (*stamps foot and looks sulky*) What're the things that, when you take them away, stop the lads from being the lads in a fic..?!

To me it seems B&D lend themselves particularly well to AUs
Yeah, I think you're right. For me I think it comes down to how well the writers manage to keep that essence of the lads in the characterisations... Like, lots of people say that Larton is just too far away from the lads for them, and I totally agree that it's stretching them a long way from CI5, but for me there's enough of their absolute essence that I still love it as a Pros story. Same with Birdwatchers, in fact. I'm still liking msmoat's thoughts about that too - Bodie's loyalty and self-sufficiency, living by his own code. Doyle's integrity. Their toughness, cos I think that comes into all the fics that I can think of liking... which include all the ones you've listed above, btw! But if you take away any of those things, then I don't think they'd be themselves... and in SotK Bodie was missing his loyalty, and Doyle was missing his integrity... Hmmn!

[angel-ci5.livejournal.com]

But I want to know what that essence is for people! (*stamps foot and looks sulky*) What're the things that, when you take them away, stop the lads from being the lads in a fic..?!

I'll try!
Well as I've said, doormat Bodie is not Bodie for me, nor are bitter Bodie, tormented Bodie or Bodie the emotional cripple - to me he's hugely confident, strong (mentally), capable, powerful, easy-going, highly-sexed .... *g*

Doyle too is strong and capable of course, much more intense, feisty.... oh I'm no good at putting it into words, but suffice to say he's not a pathetic wimp who needs Bodie mothering him! (eeeuch)

Larton and Birdwatchers are perfect examples, I think, of recognisable B&D in completely different universes, having had different lives.
For me it's all about their relationship, so I don't need them to be in CI5.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Lol - it is hard to put it into words, isn't it, which is what perhaps is turning Josh around below! I'm absolutely with you about it having alot to do with their relationship rather than the simple fact that they're in CI5. I love the challenge of seeing them as them in other settings, in fact... *g*

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

But I want to know what that essence is for people! (*stamps foot and looks sulky*) What're the things that, when you take them away, stop the lads from being the lads in a fic..?!

I'm very much in the minority here, I realize! I guess my problem with AUs is that -- just speaking for myself, obviously -- once you remove B/D from the CI5 universe, they become simple character types -- classic character types -- and much of what you call "essence" is no more unique to Doyle and Bodie than any attractive romantic male lead in any work of M/M fiction. The difference being that this audience for AU has the same advantage of any fan fic reader -- she's going into it with certain understanding and expectation of what these two types will be like : mostly looks and mannerisms/quirks.

To those of us who can't stand AU, it's pretty much impossible to remove Doyle and Bodie from the CI5 universe because the job is intrinsic to them. The job has more than partially shaped who they are -- and the fact that they are attracted to that kind of job, that they love their job and are so ruthlessly good at it -- speaks more than anything to who they are. The show isn't called Doyle and Bodie, it's called The Professionals, and I think that's a deliberate choice -- unlike Starsky and Hutch, for example, who seemed much less focused about what their prime directive was, though granted they were just ordinary detectives and not a secret organization with special powers.

For me, the essence of B/D and that show is that they are professionals, the lethal best at what they do, focused, deadly, elite team -- ultimately loyal to no one but each other.

If you change that, than you've changed for me what is the essence of those characters. Prequels and sequels to their CI5 existence, still work for me, but a total AU...no.

I shouldn't say no, because I've now read some entertaining AUs, and I've really enjoyed them, but Doyle and Bodie are are no longer Doyle and Bodie for me, except in looks. Professional Dreamer being a clever exception.

So coming from that angle, it's fascinating to listen to you all talk about the "essence" of these characters, and try to define and isolate it. Your experience is so different from mine.

And I'm curious: if Bodie and Doyle are described in completely different physical terms: Doyle, broad and blonde and blue-eyed, Bodie, slim and slight and brown-eyed with a ponytail...how much does that effect your perception of their characters? Do they have to look the same? Does essence have anything to do with physical appearance?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Interesting... (as ever! *g*)

and much of what you call "essence" is no more unique to Doyle and Bodie than any attractive romantic male lead in any work of M/M fiction
Hmmn - I think you're vastly understating, or perhaps misunderstanding my summation of their characters, for a start. Perhaps I've not phrased it very well, but Bodie and Doyle, to me, are not at all just about looks and mannerisms/quirks. Their unique combinations of those things are a part of what make them individuals, yes, but there is more to it than that, and that was what I was trying to get at with my original question.

this audience for AU... she's going into it with certain understanding and expectation of what these two types will be like
Yes, this is exactly my point. There is something about Bodie and Doyle, when written "truly" that most Pros fans will recognise, whether or not they're given the same names or physical settings. So what is that something?! It sounds like, for you, Bodie/Doyle = CI5 and so you'll never recognise them outside of that setting. For me there's far more to them!

Except that I think there is for you too, really - cos otherwise why say Professional Dreamer being a clever exception? So what is it about the characters in Professional Dreamer that make them Bodie and Doyle to you, even though they're emphatically supposed not to be!

I've read original fiction which was allegedly based on B/D and recognised that it was, recognised their exact characters. Conversely, when I read SotK, I didn't see them, even though I was told who they were supposed to be. That is their essence - that particular mixture of characteristics that distinguishes those two stories... and it's different for everyone!

So - what if I turn around what you've said then - that they are professionals, the lethal best at what they do, focused, deadly, elite team -- ultimately loyal to no one but each other - to me this could describe almost any cop/buddy/fandom pairing, that's the ultimate, generic series characterisation. So you would feel just the same if, say Mattheson and King (from Purging) were the heroes of the show? Or McCabe and Lucas? Or, as you say, Starsky and Hutch? It was, of course, a deliberate choice to call the show "The Professionals", and Clemens is actually quoted as having said that the show could have been about any CI5 team, it didn't have to be Bodie and Doyle at all - but given the option of replacing MS/LC when their contracts finally expired, ITV decided that no other pairing would work the same magic, and ended the series once and for all.

I totally agree with them, in fact. What you describe above is, to me, only a part of what makes up Bodie and Doyle, and I'd be far less interested in any other pairing that was put into the show - in fact I'd go so far as to say I'd have been unlikely to watch it. For me Bodie/Doyle was the show, and it's their personalities and relationship that make it what I love. No one else could replace them.

So because it's their personalities and relationship, to me, that equals them then yes, I can set those personalities and relationships anywhere else, and enjoy seeing how they face the challenges of that setting.

And I'm curious: if Bodie and Doyle are described in completely different physical terms
I also think that, actually, our physical traits do go a long way to making up who we are as well - changing appearance affects us psychologically, and affects people's reactions to us, so yeah, for me they have to be described physically as Bodie/Doyle (LC/MS). If they didn't look the way they did, then there would be an intrinsic part of their personality to match that wasn't B/D...

See also, above!

[magenta-blue.livejournal.com]

Oh gosh, what an interesting discussion. What makes the lads the lads? I guess that most of us come to fic from watching the show left right and sideways, so in fic I am seeing LC and MS as the base for the characters they brought to life, and I need to hear the same voices with the same dialects. The next bit Ms Moat has put very nicely - Bodie's loyalty and self-sufficiency, living by his own code. Doyle's integrity. Their toughness. This is perfect, as then fics that use this and spin off from it intrigue me - if Bodie's loyalty to Doyle/CI5 is questioned, then how does he react? If someone or injury makes him less than self sufficient, what happens? If someone doubts/challenges Doyle's integrity, how does he react? If their toughness is questioned/challenged/compromised, what happens then? I tend to enjoy most fics that play with things like that.