Kate Maclean's Redemption Story - Part 4 - major spoilers ahead

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

OK, I was asked to open another page so here it is!

For referring back to part 3:

http://community.livejournal.com/ci5hq/36488.html

Comments

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

Paris7am wrote:

My interpretation of the scene sees Doyle doing *all* of these except threatening to cut off their relationship - and he does still say something to the effect of "we're not going to make it if we have passengers to carry". Plus the statement about "you don't *have* a girlfriend, you *only* have me, and that's how it's got to be" and "of course it's serious, I wouldn't have started it if it wasn't serious" *and* he drops the L-bomb and says he loves Bodie...(paraphrasing wildly from memory...) When I read it I absolutely felt that Doyle was forcing Bodie to chose. (Of course, we do have to take into account the narrator!)

That confirms my impression of what happened, too - that Doyle exploits Bodie’s feelings for him, pressures him into dumping Veronica and then goes on to do the same thing himself! I just don’t see how Doyle’s nature - and his fickleness in particular - is Bodie’s fault. And, after reading Redemption, I'm quite surprised to find the level of support that exists for Doyle (and Cowley, too, I wonder?). I don't think Doyle is all bad or that his behaviour in the story was all bad, but I certainly don't think Bodie was equally to blame for the direction their relationship took.

And, I don't mean to say that I find Bodie innocent and blameless - on the contrary! He is truculent and almost seems to goad Doyle. He seems outraged because of what Doyle is asking of him - he recognizes that Doyle isn't interested in being exclusive, himself, and he sees it as a signal of Doyle using the "imbalance" between them against Bodie - that Doyle knows Bodie feels more, is farther gone, and is using it to control him. That awful gash of knowing that what you would do for your lover without question, automatically, because you wouldn't WANT to do anything else? (and which you subsequently fight against to try and keep things in check) your lover really can't and doesn't even feel in return.

and specifically,

that Doyle knows Bodie feels more, is farther gone, and is using it to control him

Good points and I feel you’re right about the last bit but do we actually know that? Is it just our feelings or does KM make it clear? I honestly can't remember.

why doesn't Bodie say he loves Doyle?

Can't remember who asked this but I think it's something to do with Bodie not wishing to tempt fate and have his love thrown back in his face once Doyle realises he's won Bodie back; he doesn't want to frighten Doyle off - doesn't want a repeat of what happened before; doesn't want to rock the boat and lose what he's regained. Or, he's worried that Doyle hates cliches. Arguably.

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

Damn. Sorry, I responded to all those other posts back on the other page.

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Don't worry! Do you want to stick and paste or delete it and bring it over to this page? You can delete your own comments or copy them. Or I can, I don't mind.

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

Don't worry! Do you want to stick and paste or delete it and bring it over to this page? You can delete your own comments or copy them. Or I can, I don't mind.

I'm LJ-challenged, so if you really don't mind, I'd be happy for you to do it! ;-)

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

Which brings me to another question - we can all see and experience for ourselves that the "present day" narration from Bodie is coloured by his emotions and thoughts - what about the narration of the past? How accurate or inaccurate do you all perceive it to be? Do you think that they present and past narration differ in accuracy?

Now THAT is a very shrewd question, both from a reading standpoint and from a writing standpoint.

My take is that Bodie correctly recalls past events but that his interpretation of past events remains in question -- though less questionable than his interpretation of current events.

From a writing standpoint, KM has to give us a fairly accurate recall of what took place between them in order for us to have a true picture of how distorted Bodie's view is.

And my own feeling, reading the flashbacks, was hurt for Bodie, yes, but a sort of relief that Doyle's betrayal wasn't nearly as drastic as I feared. From Bodie's initial rage I was thinking Doyle had defected or something! I was prepared for almost anything, but as the backstory began to come out, I began to see that there was, of course, another side to this "betrayal."

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

Is this the same thing as me saying that when I started reading Redemption I thought Doyle was being awful to Bodie and I didn't recognise his characterisation at all (or Cowley's); then I realised, gradually, that it was probably more Bodie's perception of events we were reading, rather than the actual reality?

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

(Taken from part 3 and posted by Paris)

Speaking of the original relationship and the imbalance that Bodie perceives between them ... I can see that one could think that Bodie has responsibility, that he chose to do what Doyle asked and break it off with Nic. That he in essence gave his consent to being exclusive. Of course. On the other hand, I have a more difficult time with this: Doyle doesn't even use what power he might have, because he doesn't try to coerce him, doesn't threaten to cut off their relationship if Bodie doesn't. As far as we know, Bodie could have kept on seeing Veronica and sleeping with Doyle.

I'm not sure how we've ended up seeing the scene so differently, but we have. My interpretation of the scene sees Doyle doing *all* of these except threatening to cut off their relationship - and he does still say something to the effect of "we're not going to make it if we have passengers to carry". Plus the statement about "you don't *have* a girlfriend, you *only* have me, and that's how it's got to be" and "of course it's serious, I wouldn't have started it if it wasn't serious" *and* he drops the L-bomb and says he loves Bodie...(paraphrasing wildly from memory...) When I read it I absolutely felt that Doyle was forcing Bodie to chose. (Of course, we do have to take into account the narrator!)

And, I don't mean to say that I find Bodie innocent and blameless - on the contrary! He is truculent and almost seems to goad Doyle. He seems outraged because of what Doyle is asking of him - he recognizes that Doyle isn't interested in being exclusive, himself, and he sees it as a signal of Doyle using the "imbalance" between them against Bodie - that Doyle knows Bodie feels more, is farther gone, and is using it to control him. That awful gash of knowing that what you would do for your lover without question, automatically, because you wouldn't WANT to do anything else? (and which you subsequently fight against to try and keep things in check) your lover really can't and doesn't even feel in return.

I don't want to belabor this one point in the story, except that it *is* a crucial turning point, one which helps channel the course of events to follow, and is really symbolic and indicative of what their relationship is and is not. It sets up the deeper crux to come.

And this is just my personal opinion and impression! I can and do change them...

Which brings me to another question - we can all see and experience for ourselves that the "present day" narration from Bodie is coloured by his emotions and thoughts - what about the narration of the past? How accurate or inaccurate do you all perceive it to be? Do you think that they present and past narration differ in accuracy?

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

(JGraeme's reply to the above post)

I'm not sure how we've ended up seeing the scene so differently, but we have. My interpretation of the scene sees Doyle doing *all* of these except threatening to cut off their relationship - and he does still say something to the effect of "we're not going to make it if we have passengers to carry". Plus the statement about "you don't *have* a girlfriend, you *only* have me, and that's how it's got to be" and "of course it's serious, I wouldn't have started it if it wasn't serious" *and* he drops the L-bomb and says he loves Bodie...(paraphrasing wildly from memory...) When I read it I absolutely felt that Doyle was forcing Bodie to chose. (Of course, we do have to take into account the narrator!)

I took it as Doyle laying out his arguments as convincingly -- persuasively -- as he could, and Bodie having to choose. Bodie chose what he ultimtely wanted. He was willing to take the risk, and of course there was risk involved.

And, I don't mean to say that I find Bodie innocent and blameless - on the contrary!... He recognizes that Doyle isn't interested in being exclusive, himself, and he sees it as a signal of Doyle using the "imbalance" between them against Bodie - that Doyle knows Bodie feels more, is farther gone, and is using it to control him.

But there I think is where Bodie is wrong. Where he later blames Doyle unfairly. Doyle is calculating or manipulative. He askes for what he needs, he does love Bodie, but he handles it differently. The more intensely he feels, the more desperate and afraid he becomes -- witness that anguished scene (I think the last time they make love -- a funny term for what happens there -- before they split). Part of why Doyle feels trapped and desperate is because he knows that he's getting in to deep -- it's clear in that scene that he knows if anything happens to Bodie, he'll be destroyed. ONe of his fears when he first contacts Cowley is that he'll hear Bodie is dead. He makes a terrible mistake, but it isn't from lack of love for Bodie.

Actually, I think I forgot whatever my point was...

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

Noblesentiments originally wrote:

I think you're right in that Bodie does seem to blame himself for needing Doyle so much...... he despises this need and his own vulnerability and the fact that, on Doyle's return, he realises his feelings are still as raw as ever, as raw as an open wound (which Cowley keeps scratching). Equally, I think he finds the united front of Doyle and Cowley humiliating and hurtful: the final treachery. And the fact that at times it seems he can almost forgive Veronica for her part in all of this is in sharp contrast to the way he feels about the doyle/cowley complicity and demonstrates, almost perversely, how deep his feelings run for those two people and therefore how deep his hurt would be vis a vis their perceived treachery. Whereas with Veronica, the same feelings and history don't exist and she matters less to Bodie than they do. It could be argued.

JGraeme replied:

Absolutely. That's it, I think. Bodie focused a huge part of anger at himself on Doyle -- partly at least because exploring it would mean facing the fact that he still -- and always has -- loves Doyle.

Which is why even at the very end, knowing everything Nic did, his feelings for her are so...detached. Almost dispassionate. None of the murderous rage he might well be expected to hear. He can pity her and even try and understand, and her betrayals (which were calculated) far surpassed anything Doyle ever did.

Noblesentiments:

Good points and yes, I think Bodie can afford to pity her, a privilege he's hardly ever enjoyed with Doyle, not until towards the very end, anyway.

And I agree, *her* betrayals were calculated and they weren't just momentary, but something she sustained over a long course of time....it's one thing to do something in anger, be volatile, but it requires much more steelyness (borrowing a good word here) and an aptitude for it which I don't think, to his credit, that Doyle has or could stomach. At the early stage he didn't presume to know what was best for Bodie and even when he returned, he was prepared to take a step back *if* he thought Bodie was happy. Which Veronica couldn't do. Yes, detached and dispassionate, too, good words to describe Bodie. If he'd ever been in love with her, he wasn't any more.

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

None of the murderous rage he might well be expected to hear.

HEAR? What, now he's got voices in his head? I meant FEEL. I can't type worth a damn this morning.

[rosie55.livejournal.com]

Mmmm, popping back in after being side-tracked with visitors and RL for a couple of days! Sorry to neglect you all!
It seems to me that Veronica obviously didn't see what was, in effect, a way of life for her - manipulating people to get what she wanted - as a betrayal of Bodie (or Uncle John or Doyle or her boss or the guy she was supposed to be meeting in Edinburgh, all of whom she let down to a greater or lesser extent). She seems to me to have been entirely without compunction - whenever something undesirable in her behaviour is revealed, she immediately changes tack and tries to deny or circumvent it, lie about it, pretend it hasn't happened. And I thought the dinner party scene was also beautifully revealing - Bodie begins to perceive her chameleon-like qualities and paucity of principles as she pretends to agree with her friends'political opinions when she does nothing of the sort and later dismisses them in scathing terms to him.
Veronica seems quite deeply amoral to me, never ceasing to attempt to use Bodie's needs and weaknesses to tie him to her. Even the manner of her departure was the ultimate attempt to saddle Bodie with such a burden of guilt that his relationship with Doyle could never be salvaged, presuming that she has heard by this time that her contract on Doyle has failed. One way or another, she tries to remove her arch-rival or to make it impossible for Bodie to continue the relationship.
But to Bodie, she has been very much a safe haven, hasn't she, after Doyle's departure? When you have been devastatingly rejected and your feelings have been shredded, there is something very comforting about uncritical adoration and I suspect he would not have wanted to think about anything which would rock this safe relationship. If it stays as is, he does not have to make any real commitment to making it work. But, because his feelings - of gratitude, essentially, are so shallow rooted, it is possible for him to set aside the relationship very quickly - just as he has already done once before.
Being in love is not an absolute - there are degrees and aspects of love - but whereas the love between Bodie and Doyle is, they eventually find, mutually deep the love between Bodie and Veronica is always unbalanced and she, of all people, knows it. While Doyle is gone, she can cope with that, no wonder she is so unbalanced by his unexpected return.
I hope that makes some sort of sense! It's late and my eyes are trying to close. I shall be off to bed and see whether I need to clarify this tomorrow. Or whether it adds not a jot to the discussion!

PS I Love Yoooooouuuuu

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

I'd asked "What do you make of the fact that Bodie never actually says the words "I love you" in response to Doyle?

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet."

Justacat replied:
It hasn't been mentioned - but it's not a new topic for me, at least; I've thought a lot about it, because it really stood out for me. When I first read the story, I was left feeling quite bothered and anxious that Doyle still seemed so worried, that Bodie hadn't given him enough. And at first I attributed that to the fact that Bodie had never said those words. But in the end I concluded that that probably wasn't the reason. I think Bodie doesn't say them for no reason other than that this particular Bodie simply...doesn't say those words. He doesn't articulate his feelings in that way. I eventually started to see that I don't really have much doubt that Doyle knows that Bodie loves him, both before the split and after the reconciliation - and not because he's just taking for granted that Bodie loves him, but because this Bodie expresses his love in ways other than verbally, and this Doyle is very good at reading those feelings in him.

It's the sort of story that sticks with you, so it didn't dawn on me until a while later that Bodie never actually says The Words. I hadn't been in any doubt that Bodie loved Doyle and that they would work it out -- obviously there were wounds there that would take time to heal -- but once I noted the absence of the words, I began to wonder if they had been deliberately left out. If there had been authorial intention in Bodie withholding them.

Re: PS I Love Yoooooouuuuu

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

Part II

Jessica wrote in answer to my question:

What makes me anxious isn't that, then - it's Doyle's lingering insecurity, which Bodie isn't "fixing," and which I (now) read not as having to do with whether Bodie loves him, but with whether Bodie will...flake out (for lack of a better word! *g*) again for some reason. It's more his worry that Bodie's inner demons might drive him off again. He knows that Bodie's been so changed by everything that's happened, that he is different now...he gets distant sometimes - and Doyle's less sure than he was that Bodie will stay with him. But not that Bodie loves him. Doyle on a few occasions expresses this uncertainty in some way or another, and Bodie, internally, is perplexed by it, because he - Bodie - knows that he can and will never leave Doyle,

Yes, I agree. I was bothered by Doyle's lingering uncertainty, but as Bodie is also bothered by it, I figured it was just part of the price Doyle has to pay -- that this is a bit of Doyle's own guilt and sorrow rather than anything Bodie is doing (or not doing).

and that despite the pain, he wouldn't change anything that's happened (with Nic, I mean) - but I'm not certain tha tDoyle knows that, and I can't help but feel that Bodie should make more of an effort to make it clear to him, especially if he is so clearly aware that Doyle's uncertain about it...

I feel sure that in time the words will be said between them, one quiet night when they're spoken so softly Doyle almost misses them. It's just a matter of time and healing.

And of course part of KM's ability as a writer is that she does make you feel that these two will continue on after the last page, that the story is far from over. Which is right where this initial discussion began, isn't it?


Though perhaps the point is that there is nothing but time together that can really set Doyle at ease, at this point. And the more I've read the story, the less anxious about it I feel (which is often the case for me with KM's stories). The last scene, in the office, goes a long way toward setting my mind at ease on this point (though of course I'd have liked more, just as a reward, to me, for having made it to this point!! Then again, I always like more! ;-). The hints of playfulness on Bodie's part, the smiles - and the suggestion that, finally, Bodie is initating things between them (the reference to sex the previous night, e.g.) - are really vital for me. Bodie's not what he was - but it doesn't feel so...one-sided?...anymore. Like Doyle's giving everything and Bodie's just passively taking.

Ah, that last line is especially telling. Because we don't want to believe that Bodie is drifting along, numb and zombie-like as he was before. And he's not. Doyle brings him back to life -- the story might easily be called Resurrection, I suppose.

Monday night 1

[paris7am.livejournal.com]

Oh god, there's just too many great ideas flowing around here - it's so hard to keep up and follow them all as far as you want to! I'm going to *try* and track a few bits...

On the question of whether Doyle knows Bodie feels more, is farther gone, and is using it to control him?
Justacat wrote: I don't think he knows Bodie feels more; I don't think he's being calculating or manipulative.
I think that I need to reread and rethink to find the roots of why I think that he does. Not that I think he set out deliberately in a wicked sort of way, but that he was aware of his power, aware of the consequences, smart enough to know what effect he would have, and went ahead and did it anyway, even if he was broken up about it.

jgraeme2007: My take is that Bodie correctly recalls past events but that his interpretation of past events remains in question -- though less questionable than his interpretation of current events.
From a writing standpoint, KM has to give us a fairly accurate recall of what took place between them in order for us to have a true picture of how distorted Bodie's view is.
The past seems more accurate to me, which is why I asked the question - because I was second guessing my assumptions and wondering if it was true, and what sort of evidence there might be for or against. I was wondering if it's because in the flashbacks Bodie's opinions and visions of everything he experiences, and especially of D, are much calmer and cooler, more objective. At least in the initial flashbacks? Is there a different person used, or tense? Ah, saving that for someday when I can actually step outside my experience of the words and look objectively at them, myself...

NS wrote: I don't think Doyle is all bad or that his behaviour in the story was all bad, but I certainly don't think Bodie was equally to blame for the direction their relationship took.
I must say that I'm reading it the same way, NS - they both are at fault, but I cannot find any way to think that B is *equally* to blame for that part of it...

*Bodie chose what he ultimtely wanted. He was willing to take the risk, and of course there was risk involved.
Ahhh, I disagree... I wish I had textual reasons to give, but I don't.
**Justacat: So again, it was Bodie's choice to take the risk; if he really thought Doyle was so faithless, he didn't have to do it. To that extent, Bodie brought his "doom" on himself - and I think Bodie would agree with this; it's a big part of why he's so furious, really, that he walked right into that position of vulnerability
Again, I cannot help but disagree. B didn't know, did he, that D *was* faithless? D convinces him! Another way to read it is that B took a chance, and D got what he wanted (found out he didn't like it that much after all) waitied until B cut everyone else off, was completely vulnerable, and then cut him down. I know that there are a million other shades of paths between interpretations, with the scales going up and down...but maybe we'll have to agree to disagree on this one - I am still not able to see that Bodie was equally at fault. For instance, look at the "parallel" situations in which each of them try to use other relationships as self protective covers - Bodie with Nic, and then Doyle with Sylvie. Big big difference.

*Jgraeme2007: Part of why Doyle feels trapped and desperate is because he knows that he's getting in to deep -- it's clear in that scene that he knows if anything happens to Bodie, he'll be destroyed. ONe of his fears when he first contacts Cowley is that he'll hear Bodie is dead. He makes a terrible mistake, but it isn't from lack of love for Bodie. Hmmm, need to think about this. It seems to go without saying that D was overwhelmed by the power of his feelings for B, that they were excruciating, caused a crisis, but I cannot see that his actions sprang from love for B - I saw him motivated by self protection much more than by love for Bodie. If you mean he makes a mistake, but he still loves Bodie - then I agree... :) (tying myself up in knots here... spaghetti brains)

Re: Monday night 1

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

NS wrote: I don't think Doyle is all bad or that his behaviour in the story was all bad, but I certainly don't think Bodie was equally to blame for the direction their relationship took.

....I must say that I'm reading it the same way, NS - they both are at fault, but I cannot find any way to think that B is *equally* to blame for that part of it...>

So we seem to be pretty equally divided on that score. Do you think it's the author's intent to show they were equally to blame or to show Doyle erred more than Bodie? Or would it even matter who was more at fault?

Re: Monday night 1

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

**Justacat: So again, it was Bodie's choice to take the risk; if he really thought Doyle was so faithless, he didn't have to do it. To that extent, Bodie brought his "doom" on himself - and I think Bodie would agree with this; it's a big part of why he's so furious, really, that he walked right into that position of vulnerability

...Again, I cannot help but disagree. B didn't know, did he, that D *was* faithless? D convinces him!

But Doyle wasn't faithless at first. Bodie accuses him several times before he actually breaks faith.

Secondly, there's a little of Doyle and Bodie going at cross-purposes. I think what Doyle is actually asking is for Bodie to give up NIC, who Doyle sees as a tremendous threat to their relationship. I don't think Doyle was actually suggesting at that point that they give up ALL birds forever, just that they keep the outside shagging strictly extra-curricular. Nic scares him becasue she has the potential of turning into a real relationship for Bodie.

But Bodie, naturally, takes what Doyle's saying to the next logical level, which is that they give up all birds and all outside sex and simply have each other.

And I don't think Doyle was quite at that point yet. It happened too fast for him, but had outside pressures not driven them apart, he seems to believe -- and says -- that they would have worked through it.

Another way to read it is that B took a chance, and D got what he wanted (found out he didn't like it that much after all) waitied until B cut everyone else off, was completely vulnerable, and then cut him down.

But this reading suggests that Doyle did what he did knowingly and deliberately, and I think it is a very negative reading of Doyle's character; a reading that doesn't allow for his own confusion and fear, which ((I think) help a lot to mitigate his guilt.

I am still not able to see that Bodie was equally at fault. For instance, look at the "parallel" situations in which each of them try to use other relationships as self protective covers - Bodie with Nic, and then Doyle with Sylvie. Big big difference.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying there? I don't see the big difference in how they use women. They both convince themselves they love these women -- and I think on one level they DO love them.

Also, I think Bodie himself takes responsiblity for what happened between himself and Doyle, so surely that has to factor in? Does anyone know Doyle better than Bodie? And if Bodie thinks his actions were instrumental in driving Doyle away...well, surely Bodie would know?

Monday night 2

[paris7am.livejournal.com]

Jgraeme2007:**Bodie focused a huge part of anger at himself on Doyle -- partly at least because exploring it would mean facing the fact that he still -- and always has -- loves Doyle.
I find it so ironic that what seems to trigger everything is love. That B's feelings of anger and loathing of himself seems to be born of the inequality (in love) that he feels between himself and D - B thinks time and time again how D is so cool, controlled, calm, unaffected while B is stunned with love, blushing, agitated, roiling with emotion, cringing with shame at how he has no control over himself when D is there... Genie out and flying, as he says

I keep trying to think of metaphors for the experience of reading this. Most recently I've been thinking that it's like looking through a window at a mirror - the window has the outline and shading of Bodie, the mirror has the outline and shading of Doyle, but we color and fill him in with our own opinions, what we bring to him through our ideas and through our reading of Bodie?

Jgraeme2007: but a sort of relief that Doyle's betrayal wasn't nearly as drastic as I feared. From Bodie's initial rage I was thinking Doyle had defected or something! I was prepared for almost anything
Another difference between our readings, I guess. The betrayal was as bad or maybe worse than I feared. I think that often in these situations the author will still arrange some kind of "out", a circumstance which can explain and erase it all away, so that the other character can be forgiven, wiped clean more easily... But not here. There isn't a lot you can do to get out of the "I'm in love with her"... Even if two years later he says he knew it was a mistake two weeks afterwards. That's just mho!

Jgraeme2007:**This is the sign of strong plotting, too, the inexorable progress of one event leading into the next. At no time does it feel contrived or artificial. Everything that happens leads logically, inevitably from what has gone before -- everyone's actions stay true to KM's characterization.
YES - absolutely agree with you on this.

Another bit of strength I think is how many parallel layers there are - there are a lot of ones we've already talked about but - a new one (could just be for slow me!) but the hong kong situation - a macrocosm for the microcosms - surface is going on swimmingly while underneath it's terror and paranoia and fear...

**NS: At the early stage he didn't presume to know what was best for Bodie and even when he returned, he was prepared to take a step back *if* he thought Bodie was happy.
YES - I think that is a crucial fact. Yes. On the opposite side of that coin, what did you all make of the incident at SH5 when D thinks B is laughing at him, and the hands around neck thing happens?

Justacat: he gets distant sometimes - and Doyle's less sure than he was that Bodie will stay with him. But not that Bodie loves him.
(I am wondering, do you think he knew it all along, or that he's only come to realize it following Cowley's revelations and seeing B again?)
Jgreame: I was bothered by Doyle's lingering uncertainty, but as Bodie is also bothered by it, I figured it was just part of the price Doyle has to pay -- that this is a bit of Doyle's own guilt and sorrow rather than anything Bodie is doing (or not doing).
Yes, I agree with you. But I can see that there *are* things that would worry Doyle, too - the way at the end Bodie is blinking in and out - the memories are ambushing him again. I'm not even sure I want to think this, let alone type the words, but the use of that particular memory (the first paragraph of the novel)... as the last flashback of the book? It feels fairly weighty to me, fairly ominous...? I'm trying not to think about it... Oh, and I love the bit where B thinks to himself that he's passed his insecurities onto D like an Olympic torch. *g* Otoh, if he has, we don't get any really strong indication of it.

Re: Monday night 2

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

Another difference between our readings, I guess. The betrayal was as bad or maybe worse than I feared. I think that often in these situations the author will still arrange some kind of "out", a circumstance which can explain and erase it all away, so that the other character can be forgiven, wiped clean more easily... But not here. There isn't a lot you can do to get out of the "I'm in love with her"... Even if two years later he says he knew it was a mistake two weeks afterwards. That's just mho!

I agree: this isn't one of those corny romances where the catalyst for separation and heartache turns out to be all a big misunderstanding.

But she's my sister, darling!!!!

Doyle's fall from grace is real and the path to redemption is rocky, but for me that makes for a more satisfying story than if it had all turned out to be a mistake. What kind of story is that? You can't have plot without conflict, and all too often writers are terrified of showing any genuine conflict between Doyle and Bodie beyond...Does he love me enough to sleep with me?

Monday night 3

[paris7am.livejournal.com]

Jgraeme: the story might easily be called Resurrection, I suppose.
Interesting!

Justacat: the circumstance he's in has arisen partly from the fact that he did let someone else take responsibility and control (Nic). So to me that scene at the very end, before the epilogue, when Doyle comes to Bodies flat, and Doyle says, it was all my fault; you want me to take responsibility for all of it, I will, is key. It's important to me that Bodie resists that - that he says (thinks) that the decision, the responsibility, has to be his.
Ah hah! yes, i agree. What an excellent insight into him!

*why doesn't Bodie say he loves Doyle?
JGraeme: obviously there were wounds there that would take time to heal -- but once I noted the absence of the words, I began to wonder if they had been deliberately left out. If there had been authorial intention in Bodie withholding them.
Yes, excellent point.
Justacat: KM's Bodie generally isn't particularly articulate when it comes to feelings. It's Doyle who makes the declarations and who does the talking. Which doesn't mean Bodie doesn't express them - he just does it in other ways.
I agree. Bodie seems convinced that his emotions for Doyle are completely visible, that he broadcasts them, that he is completely transparent. I wish we knew if/when Doyle was able to read him the way Bodie thinks he does... And it's so interesting, because doesn't he give the impression of being exactly the opposite, with Nic? That he's very adept at expressing his feelings, or at least doing a good job of talking to her in a way that makes her comfortable (even if it's just to pull the wool over her eyes, perhaps)...

Two side things that have been niggling me:
1 - Sarah - discuss? as S2K says, "answers on a postcard!"
2 - A main character shoots herself in the head, and it hardly matters to me... I'm more concerned about what that twitch of his mouth that time at the door meant... (you know what I mean) and what does that say about me? us? B/D? I brush it away, I mean B/D IS **all**, but still, it occasionally ambushes me.

hahaha - I've gone on far too long - I hope you'll forgive me if I've gone off the path or seem a bit crazy - obviously I've been thinking about this too much (or is it not enough?!)

Re: Monday night 3

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

I'll let the others post their own answers here, paris, I just wanted to say what an excellent job you've managed to do in rounding up and providing a precis of all the disparate threads etc.....it really does help me go take everything in. And I love your mirror metaphor....... Again, I'm thinking what a clever story this was - in all kinds of ways.

Re: Monday night 3

[rosie55.livejournal.com]

Paris said "A main character shoots herself in the head, and it hardly matters to me... "
Hardly matters? You should worry, it came as a positive relief to me! A sort of "Great, that's her out of the way!" moment, coupled with relief because surely I wasn't the only one, first time around, who wondered whether she would actually shoot Bodie at that critical moment?
When did I get so callous? When she started manipulating the lads, I suppose. It's always the lads really, isn't it in this world of ours? For most of us, I suspect, the other characters can generally fall by the wayside, be mown down by errant MI6 agents, blown up by IRA, kidnapped by the KGB, so long as the lads are OK (at least after suitable h/c for any damage sustained!).
Or is that just me? Hmmm?

Re: Monday night 3

[rosie55.livejournal.com]

Sarah? Do you mean Bodie's secretary? (This is a super sized postcard, by the way!)
Hmmm, yes, I suppose she is an interesting character simply because she seems so immune to the normally devastating Bodie charm and so contrarily susceptible to Doyle's! Although perhaps Bodie's flirtatiousness is switched off, in his frozen emotional state, it is implied as much elsewhere in the story, I think.
But then, don't most people behave so in most boss/pa work situations, quite deliberately not moving a close working relationship on to another level? It's the same dilemma that B & D often face in fanfic when they deal with their own attraction to each other where they, traditionally, recognise that following through on their mutual attraction might change things, might diminish what they already have. The stuff of many a plot!
I have discussed this situation in RL with friends and I think we all sometimes deliberately suppress/subliminate/ignore any feelings of attraction to a colleague in order to keep the working relationship on a professional basis, (though contrarily, handled so, this can actually make a working relationship more pleasant providing you all understand and are abiding by the same rules). Just as Betty is usually seen to be professionally impervious to the charms of B & D, in the vast majority of fanfic.
It is interesting to see this apparently posh and somewhat snooty character Sarah fall for Doyle, though - after all, he's always been much the scruffier of the two in canon, (apart from his stunning unshaven look in his morning-after-the-night-before finery in FF - well, he did scrub up well, even then which may be why the smarter HK Doyle is perfectly believable. Though I do seem to remember londonronnie once saying elsewhere when B & D's five o'clock shadow in that FF scene was being drooled over - sorry, seriously discussed, that her husband reckoned the two of them were sporting at least three days beard growth apiece by the morning. You see, Josh, we women don't have first hand knowledge of things like this - we usually have to ask one of our blokes. Just as well they seem a tolerant, if bemused lot. I digress! Where was I? And a three day beard shadow doesn't quite tally with a posh dinner and the tuxes the night before but hey, who cares when they look like that? Quick break to mop brow and contemplate said picture). Maybe D's transformation with new suits and expensive haircuts and ex-pat appeal has put him into a class of men Sarah would consider.
But would this chilly Sarah (a) allow her lust (I don't think any other word would quite do!) to show so obviously to both her boss himself - to whom she otherwise apparently behaves quite coldly - and (b)to Doyle in the bar scene (and to the rest of the CI5 crowd with whom she never normally deigns to mix) , and later still, at the end, (when Bodie overhears two staff gossiping about how angry Sarah was not to get the job of PA to the newly returned Doyle). Would she make it so obvious to her fellow workers how much this had got to her. Difficult to know without knowing the dynamics of the CI5 staff operation.
Or, just to squeeze one more thought on to the postcard, had Bodie misread Sarah, just as he has misread so many other people, from Doyle to Cowley to Murph to Veronica. Has she taken her cue from him and his coldness? If he had been warm and friendly, would her attitude to him have been different? We know Bodie has misread or misinterpreted Cowley, Murphy, other CI5 operatives - is he simply getting Sarah wrong?
I know what I think, of course, and Sarah is clearly not liked by the other secretarial staff so maybe Bodie wasn't so far out on this!

New page?

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Do people feel there's still enough discussion to justify a new page? I'm happy to open another one.

Re: New page?

[rosie55.livejournal.com]

It does seem to be becoming quite an intimate conversation now, doesn't it? And perhaps I've said quite enough for now and need to re-read it in the light of all these interesting comments!