CI5 hq

Paris7am wrote:

My interpretation of the scene sees Doyle doing *all* of these except threatening to cut off their relationship - and he does still say something to the effect of "we're not going to make it if we have passengers to carry". Plus the statement about "you don't *have* a girlfriend, you *only* have me, and that's how it's got to be" and "of course it's serious, I wouldn't have started it if it wasn't serious" *and* he drops the L-bomb and says he loves Bodie...(paraphrasing wildly from memory...) When I read it I absolutely felt that Doyle was forcing Bodie to chose. (Of course, we do have to take into account the narrator!)

That confirms my impression of what happened, too - that Doyle exploits Bodie’s feelings for him, pressures him into dumping Veronica and then goes on to do the same thing himself! I just don’t see how Doyle’s nature - and his fickleness in particular - is Bodie’s fault. And, after reading Redemption, I'm quite surprised to find the level of support that exists for Doyle (and Cowley, too, I wonder?). I don't think Doyle is all bad or that his behaviour in the story was all bad, but I certainly don't think Bodie was equally to blame for the direction their relationship took.

And, I don't mean to say that I find Bodie innocent and blameless - on the contrary! He is truculent and almost seems to goad Doyle. He seems outraged because of what Doyle is asking of him - he recognizes that Doyle isn't interested in being exclusive, himself, and he sees it as a signal of Doyle using the "imbalance" between them against Bodie - that Doyle knows Bodie feels more, is farther gone, and is using it to control him. That awful gash of knowing that what you would do for your lover without question, automatically, because you wouldn't WANT to do anything else? (and which you subsequently fight against to try and keep things in check) your lover really can't and doesn't even feel in return.

and specifically,

that Doyle knows Bodie feels more, is farther gone, and is using it to control him

Good points and I feel you’re right about the last bit but do we actually know that? Is it just our feelings or does KM make it clear? I honestly can't remember.

why doesn't Bodie say he loves Doyle?

Can't remember who asked this but I think it's something to do with Bodie not wishing to tempt fate and have his love thrown back in his face once Doyle realises he's won Bodie back; he doesn't want to frighten Doyle off - doesn't want a repeat of what happened before; doesn't want to rock the boat and lose what he's regained. Or, he's worried that Doyle hates cliches. Arguably.

From:

Damn. Sorry, I responded to all those other posts back on the other page.

From:

Don't worry! Do you want to stick and paste or delete it and bring it over to this page? You can delete your own comments or copy them. Or I can, I don't mind.

From:

Don't worry! Do you want to stick and paste or delete it and bring it over to this page? You can delete your own comments or copy them. Or I can, I don't mind.

I'm LJ-challenged, so if you really don't mind, I'd be happy for you to do it! ;-)

From:

OK, wish me luck 'cos I'm grey-matter challenged.

From:

(Taken from part 3 and posted by Paris)

Speaking of the original relationship and the imbalance that Bodie perceives between them ... I can see that one could think that Bodie has responsibility, that he chose to do what Doyle asked and break it off with Nic. That he in essence gave his consent to being exclusive. Of course. On the other hand, I have a more difficult time with this: Doyle doesn't even use what power he might have, because he doesn't try to coerce him, doesn't threaten to cut off their relationship if Bodie doesn't. As far as we know, Bodie could have kept on seeing Veronica and sleeping with Doyle.

I'm not sure how we've ended up seeing the scene so differently, but we have. My interpretation of the scene sees Doyle doing *all* of these except threatening to cut off their relationship - and he does still say something to the effect of "we're not going to make it if we have passengers to carry". Plus the statement about "you don't *have* a girlfriend, you *only* have me, and that's how it's got to be" and "of course it's serious, I wouldn't have started it if it wasn't serious" *and* he drops the L-bomb and says he loves Bodie...(paraphrasing wildly from memory...) When I read it I absolutely felt that Doyle was forcing Bodie to chose. (Of course, we do have to take into account the narrator!)

And, I don't mean to say that I find Bodie innocent and blameless - on the contrary! He is truculent and almost seems to goad Doyle. He seems outraged because of what Doyle is asking of him - he recognizes that Doyle isn't interested in being exclusive, himself, and he sees it as a signal of Doyle using the "imbalance" between them against Bodie - that Doyle knows Bodie feels more, is farther gone, and is using it to control him. That awful gash of knowing that what you would do for your lover without question, automatically, because you wouldn't WANT to do anything else? (and which you subsequently fight against to try and keep things in check) your lover really can't and doesn't even feel in return.

I don't want to belabor this one point in the story, except that it *is* a crucial turning point, one which helps channel the course of events to follow, and is really symbolic and indicative of what their relationship is and is not. It sets up the deeper crux to come.

And this is just my personal opinion and impression! I can and do change them...

Which brings me to another question - we can all see and experience for ourselves that the "present day" narration from Bodie is coloured by his emotions and thoughts - what about the narration of the past? How accurate or inaccurate do you all perceive it to be? Do you think that they present and past narration differ in accuracy?

From:

(JGraeme's reply to the above post)

I'm not sure how we've ended up seeing the scene so differently, but we have. My interpretation of the scene sees Doyle doing *all* of these except threatening to cut off their relationship - and he does still say something to the effect of "we're not going to make it if we have passengers to carry". Plus the statement about "you don't *have* a girlfriend, you *only* have me, and that's how it's got to be" and "of course it's serious, I wouldn't have started it if it wasn't serious" *and* he drops the L-bomb and says he loves Bodie...(paraphrasing wildly from memory...) When I read it I absolutely felt that Doyle was forcing Bodie to chose. (Of course, we do have to take into account the narrator!)

I took it as Doyle laying out his arguments as convincingly -- persuasively -- as he could, and Bodie having to choose. Bodie chose what he ultimtely wanted. He was willing to take the risk, and of course there was risk involved.

And, I don't mean to say that I find Bodie innocent and blameless - on the contrary!... He recognizes that Doyle isn't interested in being exclusive, himself, and he sees it as a signal of Doyle using the "imbalance" between them against Bodie - that Doyle knows Bodie feels more, is farther gone, and is using it to control him.

But there I think is where Bodie is wrong. Where he later blames Doyle unfairly. Doyle is calculating or manipulative. He askes for what he needs, he does love Bodie, but he handles it differently. The more intensely he feels, the more desperate and afraid he becomes -- witness that anguished scene (I think the last time they make love -- a funny term for what happens there -- before they split). Part of why Doyle feels trapped and desperate is because he knows that he's getting in to deep -- it's clear in that scene that he knows if anything happens to Bodie, he'll be destroyed. ONe of his fears when he first contacts Cowley is that he'll hear Bodie is dead. He makes a terrible mistake, but it isn't from lack of love for Bodie.

Actually, I think I forgot whatever my point was...

From:

Noblesentiments originally wrote:

I think you're right in that Bodie does seem to blame himself for needing Doyle so much...... he despises this need and his own vulnerability and the fact that, on Doyle's return, he realises his feelings are still as raw as ever, as raw as an open wound (which Cowley keeps scratching). Equally, I think he finds the united front of Doyle and Cowley humiliating and hurtful: the final treachery. And the fact that at times it seems he can almost forgive Veronica for her part in all of this is in sharp contrast to the way he feels about the doyle/cowley complicity and demonstrates, almost perversely, how deep his feelings run for those two people and therefore how deep his hurt would be vis a vis their perceived treachery. Whereas with Veronica, the same feelings and history don't exist and she matters less to Bodie than they do. It could be argued.

JGraeme replied:

Absolutely. That's it, I think. Bodie focused a huge part of anger at himself on Doyle -- partly at least because exploring it would mean facing the fact that he still -- and always has -- loves Doyle.

Which is why even at the very end, knowing everything Nic did, his feelings for her are so...detached. Almost dispassionate. None of the murderous rage he might well be expected to hear. He can pity her and even try and understand, and her betrayals (which were calculated) far surpassed anything Doyle ever did.

Noblesentiments:

Good points and yes, I think Bodie can afford to pity her, a privilege he's hardly ever enjoyed with Doyle, not until towards the very end, anyway.

And I agree, *her* betrayals were calculated and they weren't just momentary, but something she sustained over a long course of time....it's one thing to do something in anger, be volatile, but it requires much more steelyness (borrowing a good word here) and an aptitude for it which I don't think, to his credit, that Doyle has or could stomach. At the early stage he didn't presume to know what was best for Bodie and even when he returned, he was prepared to take a step back *if* he thought Bodie was happy. Which Veronica couldn't do. Yes, detached and dispassionate, too, good words to describe Bodie. If he'd ever been in love with her, he wasn't any more.

From:

Doyle is calculating or manipulative

WHAT? Doyle ISN'T calculating or manipulative. What is with my fingers this morning?!

From:

None of the murderous rage he might well be expected to hear.

HEAR? What, now he's got voices in his head? I meant FEEL. I can't type worth a damn this morning.

From:

I'd asked "What do you make of the fact that Bodie never actually says the words "I love you" in response to Doyle?

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet."

Justacat replied:
It hasn't been mentioned - but it's not a new topic for me, at least; I've thought a lot about it, because it really stood out for me. When I first read the story, I was left feeling quite bothered and anxious that Doyle still seemed so worried, that Bodie hadn't given him enough. And at first I attributed that to the fact that Bodie had never said those words. But in the end I concluded that that probably wasn't the reason. I think Bodie doesn't say them for no reason other than that this particular Bodie simply...doesn't say those words. He doesn't articulate his feelings in that way. I eventually started to see that I don't really have much doubt that Doyle knows that Bodie loves him, both before the split and after the reconciliation - and not because he's just taking for granted that Bodie loves him, but because this Bodie expresses his love in ways other than verbally, and this Doyle is very good at reading those feelings in him.

It's the sort of story that sticks with you, so it didn't dawn on me until a while later that Bodie never actually says The Words. I hadn't been in any doubt that Bodie loved Doyle and that they would work it out -- obviously there were wounds there that would take time to heal -- but once I noted the absence of the words, I began to wonder if they had been deliberately left out. If there had been authorial intention in Bodie withholding them.

From:

Part II

Jessica wrote in answer to my question:

What makes me anxious isn't that, then - it's Doyle's lingering insecurity, which Bodie isn't "fixing," and which I (now) read not as having to do with whether Bodie loves him, but with whether Bodie will...flake out (for lack of a better word! *g*) again for some reason. It's more his worry that Bodie's inner demons might drive him off again. He knows that Bodie's been so changed by everything that's happened, that he is different now...he gets distant sometimes - and Doyle's less sure than he was that Bodie will stay with him. But not that Bodie loves him. Doyle on a few occasions expresses this uncertainty in some way or another, and Bodie, internally, is perplexed by it, because he - Bodie - knows that he can and will never leave Doyle,

Yes, I agree. I was bothered by Doyle's lingering uncertainty, but as Bodie is also bothered by it, I figured it was just part of the price Doyle has to pay -- that this is a bit of Doyle's own guilt and sorrow rather than anything Bodie is doing (or not doing).

and that despite the pain, he wouldn't change anything that's happened (with Nic, I mean) - but I'm not certain tha tDoyle knows that, and I can't help but feel that Bodie should make more of an effort to make it clear to him, especially if he is so clearly aware that Doyle's uncertain about it...

I feel sure that in time the words will be said between them, one quiet night when they're spoken so softly Doyle almost misses them. It's just a matter of time and healing.

And of course part of KM's ability as a writer is that she does make you feel that these two will continue on after the last page, that the story is far from over. Which is right where this initial discussion began, isn't it?

Though perhaps the point is that there is nothing but time together that can really set Doyle at ease, at this point. And the more I've read the story, the less anxious about it I feel (which is often the case for me with KM's stories). The last scene, in the office, goes a long way toward setting my mind at ease on this point (though of course I'd have liked more, just as a reward, to me, for having made it to this point!! Then again, I always like more! ;-). The hints of playfulness on Bodie's part, the smiles - and the suggestion that, finally, Bodie is initating things between them (the reference to sex the previous night, e.g.) - are really vital for me. Bodie's not what he was - but it doesn't feel so...one-sided?...anymore. Like Doyle's giving everything and Bodie's just passively taking.

Ah, that last line is especially telling. Because we don't want to believe that Bodie is drifting along, numb and zombie-like as he was before. And he's not. Doyle brings him back to life -- the story might easily be called Resurrection, I suppose.

From:

Which brings me to another question - we can all see and experience for ourselves that the "present day" narration from Bodie is coloured by his emotions and thoughts - what about the narration of the past? How accurate or inaccurate do you all perceive it to be? Do you think that they present and past narration differ in accuracy?

Now THAT is a very shrewd question, both from a reading standpoint and from a writing standpoint.

My take is that Bodie correctly recalls past events but that his interpretation of past events remains in question -- though less questionable than his interpretation of current events.

From a writing standpoint, KM has to give us a fairly accurate recall of what took place between them in order for us to have a true picture of how distorted Bodie's view is.

And my own feeling, reading the flashbacks, was hurt for Bodie, yes, but a sort of relief that Doyle's betrayal wasn't nearly as drastic as I feared. From Bodie's initial rage I was thinking Doyle had defected or something! I was prepared for almost anything, but as the backstory began to come out, I began to see that there was, of course, another side to this "betrayal."

From:

From:

For what it's worth, I made this little contribution earlier to this part of our debate:

why doesn't Bodie say he loves Doyle?

Can't remember who asked this but I think it's something to do with Bodie not wishing to tempt fate and have his love thrown back in his face once Doyle realises he's won Bodie back; he doesn't want to frighten Doyle off - doesn't want a repeat of what happened before; doesn't want to rock the boat and lose what he's regained. Or, he's worried that Doyle hates cliches. Arguably.

From:

Is this the same thing as me saying that when I started reading Redemption I thought Doyle was being awful to Bodie and I didn't recognise his characterisation at all (or Cowley's); then I realised, gradually, that it was probably more Bodie's perception of events we were reading, rather than the actual reality?

Yep. And part of why we start to question Bodie's reactions to the present day Doyle is because of the more neutral picture we get through flashbacks. Not that Bodie's reactions are more neutral, more the author allows us to see the larger picture by giving us more of Doyle.

The difference being that in present time we get very little of Doyle's tone of voice or facial expressions -- except as Bodie interprets them (usually very negatively). We have to read between the lines.

But in the flashbacks I think we get Doyle's actual tone of voice and expressions, which helps us put Bodie's reactions into perspective.

From:

Or, he's worried that Doyle hates cliches

Doyle does say he loves Bodie, though. Several times.

From:

justacat.livejournal.com

Been gone all day, so thanks so much for bringing this over to this page for me and responding etc.!!

Because we don't want to believe that Bodie is drifting along, numb and zombie-like as he was before...

Yes - and I also don't want to believe that Bodie is, or sees himself as, just a passive victim; all Doyle's fault, let Doyle take control. I mean, the circumstance he's in has arisen partly from the fact that he did let someone else take responsibility and control (Nic). So to me that scene at the very end, before the epilogue, when Doyle comes to Bodies flat, and Doyle says, it was all my fault; you want me to take responsibility for all of it, I will, is key. It's important to me that Bodie resists that - that he says (thinks) that the decision, the responsibility, has to be his. And then that's followed through in the epilogue - Bodie's not just being swept along by events; he's seducing Doyle (the night before, when he ambushes him coming out of the shower). He's seeing Kate Ross. He's not the Bodie he was before, and he probably never will be, but at least we can start to recognize him again...

As for the I love you - NS said, I think it's something to do with Bodie not wishing to tempt fate and have his love thrown back in his face once Doyle realises he's won Bodie back; he doesn't want to frighten Doyle off - doesn't want a repeat of what happened before; doesn't want to rock the boat and lose what he's regained. And I must admit, I didn't see it that way at all. Bodie didn't say it last time, and he didn't say it this time, and I think that's a very conscious characterization thing. KM's Bodie generally isn't particularly articulate when it comes to feelings. It's Doyle who makes the declarations and who does the talking. Which doesn't mean Bodie doesn't express them - he just does it in other ways. He even thinks, when Doyle says it to him the second time, that Doyle must know. I don't know that he'll never, ever say it, but I just don't read anything significant into his failure to do so. Of course, that's just me.

And of course part of KM's ability as a writer is that she does make you feel that these two will continue on after the last page, that the story is far from over.

Yes, absolutely. And it's really a pretty perfect ending. So why is it that I always want more?! *g*

From:

justacat.livejournal.com

I took it as Doyle laying out his arguments as convincingly -- persuasively -- as he could, and Bodie having to choose. Bodie chose what he ultimtely wanted. He was willing to take the risk, and of course there was risk involved.

Yes, exactly. Of course Doyle is trying to get Bodie to agree to stop seeing Nic. He wants Bodie to stop seeing Nic. He's jealous as hell. He suggests that there's a possibility that their "grand affaire," or whatever, won't work if Bodie doesn't (because, I think, he really believes that). But still, he never says that he will stop sleeping with Bodie if Bodie keeps seeing Nic. And realistically, I don't think he would have. That's what I meant when I said there was no "coercion." If Bodie really, truly thought the "love affair" had no hope of succeeding because Doyle could never be true to him, he could have kept seeing Nic and having sex with Doyle. That's not what Doyle wanted, and Doyle used all the persuasiveness at his disposal to try to get Bodie not to do that, to convince Bodie that they should risk all and go for it - but he never threatened to cut Bodie off.

So again, it was Bodie's choice to take the risk; if he really thought Doyle was so faithless, he didn't have to do it. To that extent, Bodie brought his "doom" on himself - and I think Bodie would agree with this; it's a big part of why he's so furious, really, that he walked right into that position of vulnerability, even though he should have known better. (Just to reiterate, I'm not saying, and don't even slightly believe, that Doyle's blameless!)

He recognizes that Doyle isn't interested in being exclusive, himself, and he sees it as a signal of Doyle using the "imbalance" between them against Bodie - that Doyle knows Bodie feels more, is farther gone, and is using it to control him.

I don't quite see it this way. To say he "recognizes" that Doyle isn't interested in being exclusive suggests that that's a fact - but I think Doyle is interested in being exclusive. He wants to be. I don't think he knows Bodie feels more; I don't think he's being calculating or manipulative.

Hmm, I guess I'm repeating what jgraeme2007 said, and what I've already said, too...I think Doyle just...jumped too soon and found himself in too deep, panicked when he found himself overwhelmed by the intensity of his feelings and how vulnerable they made him, how there was no way out because, as jgraeme said, Bodie now had the power to destroy him. I don't think he was ever trying to take advantage of Bodie's feelings for him, or manipulate Bodie, or "knew" that Bodie's feelings were stronger than his and was acting on that knowledge (in contrast, btw, to some of KM's other stories, in which I do think Doyle does all those things). I just think he made a miscalculation, and in combination with Bodie's paranoia, it has a domino effect, and the result is disaster.

From:

I just think he made a miscalculation, and in combination with Bodie's paranoia, it has a domino effect, and the result is disaster

This is the sign of strong plotting, too, the inexorable progress of one event leading into the next. At no time does it feel contrived or artificial. Everything that happens leads logically, inevitably from what has gone before -- everyone's actions stay true to KM's characterization. We can debate whether she got the characters right, but you can't argue that her vision of teh characters stays consistent.

From:

The difference being that in present time we get very little of Doyle's tone of voice or facial expressions -- except as Bodie interprets them (usually very negatively). We have to read between the lines..........
But in the flashbacks I think we get Doyle's actual tone of voice and expressions, which helps us put Bodie's reactions into perspective.

Thanks very much for this. I'm still a bit confused, though and I think I'm seeing things in the opposite way.....doesn't the reader get a slightly more accurate impression of Doyle's reactions in the present time - given that the story isn't written in the first person? The writer is telling the story, whereas the past is seen through Bodie's eyes (I think) assuming the flashbacks are Bodie's thoughts.

From:

Ah, good point! And I was just testing your powers of observation.........

From:

And can I put something else to you here? (Or anyone else who may be reading this discussion?). If we completely abandon the notion we already have of Doyle from canon and other stories, can we, the readers, see two different Doyles within this story? I *think* I do.

From:

As for the I love you - NS said, I think it's something to do with Bodie not wishing to tempt fate and have his love thrown back in his face once Doyle realises he's won Bodie back; he doesn't want to frighten Doyle off - doesn't want a repeat of what happened before; doesn't want to rock the boat and lose what he's regained. And I must admit, I didn't see it that way at all. Bodie didn't say it last time, and he didn't say it this time, and I think that's a very conscious characterization thing. KM's Bodie generally isn't particularly articulate when it comes to feelings. It's Doyle who makes the declarations and who does the talking. Which doesn't mean Bodie doesn't express them - he just does it in other ways. He even thinks, when Doyle says it to him the second time, that Doyle must know. I don't know that he'll never, ever say it, but I just don't read anything significant into his failure to do so. Of course, that's just me.

Yeah, when I said he 'doesn't want a repeat of last time' I meant for Doyle to leave him again, not for his words to be rejected. I agree with you that Bodie doesn't, and maybe can't, express his love for Doyle in the way Doyle can for him, but I also think he's terrified of frightening Doyle away, or maybe even making him too sure/complacent of Bodie again, too sure of Bodie's feelings for him (like last time).

From: