Kate Maclean's Redemption story - part 3 - major spoilers ahead

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

Due to popular demand I've started a third section. (Moderators, sorry, I don't know how to group this page with the other two and I'm not sure if there is a way?)

And for referring back to Part 2:
http://community.livejournal.com/ci5hq/35339.html

Comments

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

Thanks for this.

I wonder how she managed to justify the part near the beginning where Doyle wants Bodie to dump Veronica?...................

Well, it's like jgraeme2007 said - the fact that Doyle wants him to do it doesn't mean he has to. Bodie's the one who decides to dump Veronica. If Bodie really was so convinced that Doyle was just going to hurt him in the end, he could have refused to accede, could have hung on to her. Doyle can want whatever he wants, but he has no power to make Bodie dump her - and in fact, Doyle doesn't even use what power he might have, because he doesn't try to coerce him, doesn't threaten to cut off their relationship if Bodie doesn't. As far as we know, Bodie could have kept on seeing Veronica and sleeping with Doyle - it was his choice not to, his choice to do what Doyle wanted him to do.

Yes, I understand that Bodie can choose and ultimately it was up to him..... I think what I was getting at was how this person justified, or perhaps reconciled is a better word, reconciled the fact that Doyle is asking something of Bodie which he's not prepared to give himself to Bodie i.e. exclusivity. And maybe it's that kind of thing which contributes to our perception that Bodie never trusted Doyle.

I think you're right in that Bodie does seem to blame himself for needing Doyle so much...... he despises this need and his own vulnerability and the fact that, on Doyle's return, he realises his feelings are still as raw as ever, as raw as an open wound (which Cowley keeps scratching). Equally, I think he finds the united front of Doyle and Cowley humiliating and hurtful: the final treachery. And the fact that at times it seems he can almost forgive Veronica for her part in all of this is in sharp contrast to the way he feels about the doyle/cowley complicity and demonstrates, almost perversely, how deep his feelings run for those two people and therefore how deep his hurt would be vis a vis their perceived treachery. Whereas with Veronica, the same feelings and history don't exist and she matters less to Bodie than they do. It could be argued.

[justacat.livejournal.com]

And the fact that at times it seems he can almost forgive Veronica for her part in all of this is in sharp contrast to the way he feels about the doyle/cowley complicity and demonstrates, almost perversely, how deep his feelings run for those two people and therefore how deep his hurt would be vis a vis their perceived treachery.

Yes... When I first read the story, I was perplexed by Bodie's reactions to Veronica. I figured that given his feelings about being manipulated, he'd have reacted more strongly to learning that she'd done it to him, or even having it suggested to him. But upon reconsideration, I realized that he really couldn't let himself believe that she'd manipulated him, could he, not after basing so much of his current life on the belief that she was the one person who hadn't, wouldn't. Okay, so he didn't feel true passion for her - but he'd committed himself to her, gave her all his loyalty and whatever affection he could, because of his total belief in the...integrity of her feelings for him, in her innocence, her blamelessness - he thinks, "all she'd ever done was forgive him for hurting her, never give up on him, try to help him through his pain ..." She gave him back faith of some sort. To accept that that had been a lie would be to throw into chaos, to turn on its head, the whole foundation on which he'd based the previous two years, whatever tenuous stability and...well, contentment, if not real happiness, that he'd been able to create out of the wreckage Ray had left him with. So I came to see why he couldn't do that; it's not that he didn't react strongly to her manipulativeness at first but that he couldn't believe in her manipulativeness, and this wasn't naivete, it was...self-preservation, really, a desperate last grab at his hard-won normality, stability...

The thing is, in a way, objectively, what Nic did to Bodie was worse than what Doyle did - she really did manipulate him and lie to him, to his face; deceive him for two years. In a sense the foundation of the relationship was a lie: she didn't trust Bodie to know, to choose, what was best for him. Doyle didn't do anything like that.

But objectivity aside, for Bodie, Doyle betraying him was worse than anything anyone else could possibly have done to him because he loved him so much, because he was so vulnerable to him, needed him so much. Doyle hurt him more than Nic ever could have because he cared so much more and was so much more exposed...forgiving Doyle seems impossible to Bodie because the betrayal feels so much worse, and because the thought of enduring tha tpain again is so unbearable for him - he thinks at some point, as I recall, that it would kill him this time.

So I think that makes Bodie think...well, not necessarily that he can forgive Veronica once he truly discovers the extent of what she's done, because he can't, but it certainly makes him unwilling to believe Cowley or Doyle when they try to tell him, makes him blind to what seems (to us) should be obvious, receptive to her excuses and explanations and completely disinclined to see any of Doyle's actions in a positive light. It's a combination of what you said - that Doyle's (and Cowley's) treachery hurts so much more - and his need to believe in Veronica, because otherwise, then everything he's based his tenuous faith and recovery on has been a lie...

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

Boringly, I think I've got to agree with your assessment of Bodie and Veronica! Though, a tiny bit of me thinks I'm slightly less generous than you and feel that there is a tinge of Bodie not really caring enough about Veronica *to* feel the same way about her betrayal as he would that of Doyle and Cowley's. But yes, I think you are right.

[justacat.livejournal.com]

Finally...
I think what I was getting at was how this person justified, or perhaps reconciled is a better word, reconciled the fact that Doyle is asking something of Bodie which he's not prepared to give himself to Bodie i.e. exclusivity.

Well, I don't think she thought about it deeply enough. She didn't like the characterization of Bodie, and once she got that in her head she read everything through that lens and didn't read closely enough to begin to get all the nuances and subtleties, how Doyle was certainly at fault too, and she couldn't see the incredible beauty and craft and complexity of the story. I argued about it with her for a long time, but to no avail!! I think her reading is as "wrong" as one that sees Doyle as the total bad-guy; that both those miss what the author was trying to do, and miss the beauty and power of the story - that she blinded herself to much of it. And I tried to convince her - and as you might be able to imagine *g*, I was as...er...persuasive as possible! *g* But to no avail. Which I'm sorry about. But that is a risk with fanfiction - some people have very firm ideas about the way they like the characters to be. (I also think in her case her view might have been colored by an experience, many, many years ago, with an extremely jealous and possessive S.O. whose paranoia and obsessiveness caused them to split up and, she said, almost drove her to the very infidelity he was so paranoid about, even though she hadn't considered it before. Interesting.)

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

I think you're right in that Bodie does seem to blame himself for needing Doyle so much...... he despises this need and his own vulnerability and the fact that, on Doyle's return, he realises his feelings are still as raw as ever, as raw as an open wound (which Cowley keeps scratching). Equally, I think he finds the united front of Doyle and Cowley humiliating and hurtful: the final treachery. And the fact that at times it seems he can almost forgive Veronica for her part in all of this is in sharp contrast to the way he feels about the doyle/cowley complicity and demonstrates, almost perversely, how deep his feelings run for those two people and therefore how deep his hurt would be vis a vis their perceived treachery. Whereas with Veronica, the same feelings and history don't exist and she matters less to Bodie than they do. It could be argued.

Absolutely. That's it, I think. Bodie focused a huge part of anger at himself on Doyle -- partly at least because exploring it would mean facing the fact that he still -- and always has -- loves Doyle.

Which is why even at the very end, knowing everything Nic did, his feelings for her are so...detached. Almost dispassionate. None of the murderous rage he might well be expected to hear. He can pity her and even try and understand, and her betrayals (which were calculated) far surpassed anything Doyle ever did.

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Good points and yes, I think Bodie can afford to pity her, a privilege he's hardly ever enjoyed with Doyle, not until towards the very end, anyway.

And I agree, *her* betrayals were calculated and they weren't just momentary, but something she sustained over a long course of time....it's one thing to do something in anger, be volatile, but it requires much more steelyness (borrowing a good word here) and an aptitude for it which I don't think, to his credit, that Doyle has or could stomach. At the early stage he didn't presume to know what was best for Bodie and even when he returned, he was prepared to take a step back *if* he thought Bodie was happy. Which Veronica couldn't do. Yes, detached and dispassionate, too, good words to describe Bodie. If he'd ever been in love with her, he wasn't any more.