Kate Maclean's Redemption story - part 3 - major spoilers ahead

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

Due to popular demand I've started a third section. (Moderators, sorry, I don't know how to group this page with the other two and I'm not sure if there is a way?)

And for referring back to Part 2:
http://community.livejournal.com/ci5hq/35339.html

Comments

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

I really hope there's enough discussion left to warrant opening another page and enough people to discuss it! I thought I'd bring a couple of interesting points across from the last section:

Josh posed the question:
The question is -- in order for us to believe that KM did her job as a writer and storyteller -- did she convince us that Doyle atoned for his sins and, secondly, that he deserved to be forgiven? Because if we don't believe those two things, the story ultimately fails. It fails because if we don't believe they should be together and that they will be happy together, it's not a successful love story.

Paris wrote:
You make me think about how when Doyle is explaining it all to Bodie, he tends to focus on his own problems, his own sadness, his own experiences, and not on what he's done to Bodie. And he *was* the one who decided to leave... Even when he brings Bodie's despair up specifically, he says things like "we've really put you through the wringer" and such. I know that I'm forgetting scenarios. Doyle does seem to feel the despair of rejection near the end when he thinks that Bodie's actually decided and is leaving him, but Bodie doesn't leave him with that impression for very long............
it seems to me that I am much more willing to forgive or understand Bodie's reactions than Doyle's, and I think it's because of what I perceive his motivation to be, at heart - that Bodie (after a point) is purely in love with Doyle and is yearning FOR that. Doyle on the other hand seems to be acting out for the opposite reason - he's in love, yes, and he's fighting AGAINST that while still acting out.

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

You make me think about how when Doyle is explaining it all to Bodie, he tends to focus on his own problems, his own sadness, his own experiences, and not on what he's done to Bodie. And he *was* the one who decided to leave... Even when he brings Bodie's despair up specifically, he says things like "we've really put you through the wringer" and such.

This is *exactly* how I feel about Doyle, but I'm not sure if I'm being completely fair to him and maybe, if I'm being very honest, I'm just surrendering to the natural default mechanism within me which sees a fanon Doyle as some kind of tease, someone who manipulates Bodie and knows he can, someone who uses all his physical attributes to get anyone he wants in life - whether it be man or woman, someone who is quite selfish and really has no appreciation of the impact his behaviour has had on Bodie. And Cowley isn't much better. Only towards the very end does he say something along the lines of 'I had no idea things were this bad for you' - poor Bodie.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

As first mod to get here, I will say - carry on! *g* I think this is brilliant, personally, and the only reason I've had nothing to say about a story that I've thoroughly enjoyed twice already, is that I can't remember such detail as you guys seem to, to jump in the middle of it all!

That said - tuppence worth to what Paris said - I do remember empathising just as much, perhaps at least as much with Doyle as with Bodie, even though Doyle seems to have been the one who gave in too easily, who left when he could have stayed etc. Except - they did both admit that it wouldn't have worked out if they'd kept on? But I think, for me, what clinched the empathy for him, was the fact that he and Bodie are such different characters, with such different outlooks, and of course neither is wrong, they just come from different backgrounds and so on. I think (*dredges memory*) I thought that perhaps while Bodie was able to see it as pure love, which surely should be the thing that works out okay, the romantic view of it perhaps, Doyle just didn't have the make-up to see it so simply. For him there are a thousand threads to be untangled before something like that can be possible, and not only possible but deserved, and (back to his martyr complex, which I know you've mentioned before) the untangling of so many threads can seem completely overwhelming - easier, perhaps, to go along with what older, wiser people claim is the moral high ground, the clean, shining thread that would hurt Bodie least, that would cause the least disruption not just to Bodie but to everyone involved. Erm. I think. *g*

Hmmn - I'm looking at your comment again too, Paris, and I'm wondering exactly what you mean by Doyle "acting out" - what do you see him acting out? (Sorry if you've already explained this earlier, this is the trouble with having late-comers jump in, eh?) I think you mentioned that Bodie is "acting out" too, and I can sort of imagine that I understand you there a bit better somehow - but maybe not?

Oh, and I totally think they should be together. *g*

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

Thank God you've arrived! I thought I might be on my own on this page and I was just about to go back and edit my comment - *again* - to encourage response by adding 'or am I being unfair to Doyle and the old scrote (Cowley)..........?'

Thanks moderator, I shall go away and peruse, or, alternatively, think about your comment..........

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

Doyle just didn't have the make-up to see it so simply. For him there are a thousand threads to be untangled before something like that can be possible, and not only possible but deserved, and (back to his martyr complex, which I know you've mentioned before) the untangling of so many threads can seem completely overwhelming - easier, perhaps, to go along with what older, wiser people claim is the moral high ground, the clean, shining thread that would hurt Bodie least, that would cause the least disruption not just to Bodie but to everyone involved. Erm. I think. *g*

Something else about the timing -- doesn't the thing with Bodie and Doyle begin not to long after Doyle has recovered from his nearly fatal shooting? Doesn't that factor in somehow? Emotionally and psychologically he would still be a bit off-balance, I think. Maybe that could be one reason it would be harder for him to forsake all others and make this -- potentially ruinous (because let's not forget Cowley's initial attitude to their homosexual liasion was reflective of the times) -- relationship into the final great love of his love.

I mean, it already is, of course, but he doesn't realize it at that point.

AND doesn't he say something to Bodie -- and doesn't it seem to be borne out in that traumatic scene between them -- that sounds more like he's trying to maneouver Bodie into letting him have his cake and eat it to, as opposed to completely breaking off with him?

[rosie55.livejournal.com]

"Josh posed the question:
The question is -- in order for us to believe that KM did her job as a writer and storyteller -- did she convince us that Doyle atoned for his sins and, secondly, that he deserved to be forgiven? Because if we don't believe those two things, the story ultimately fails. It fails because if we don't believe they should be together and that they will be happy together, it's not a successful love story."
I don't necessarily agree with Josh here - I think there are plenty of stories which are about love - if that is how you define a romance - both in fanfic and in RL literature where the outcome is much less certain than this but which are successful love stories because the writer engages us with the characters and make us care about them and what will become of them, without necessarily the certainty of "happy ever after". On that reckoning, Redemption is - witness this amazing discussion - undoubtedly a successful love story.
To me, Redemption ends with the knowledge that the central relationship has survived this one major challenge and with the hope that the relationship will go on with a better chance of surviving. Which is perhaps as much as one can ask. (The world weariness creeping in again, you see!). Maybe it is because I am older and more cynical, but I confess I sometimes find neat happy ever after endings a bit too pat!
Do I think Doyle has atoned in the story? On balance, I think not! I can see he has come back, has confessed the obsessive love which he was previously able to abandon, is ready to throw himself into it again. In the course of this, he is abandoning another lover, the beautiful wife who he had denied her desire for children because that would prevent him leaving her, (precisely as he does, at the slightest chance that he could get back with Bodie), one who he was keeping on the back burner in case the thing with Bodie didn't work out; the employer he is also prepared to let down at no notice (as he did Cowley!). Not exactly honourable!
The only atonement seems to be his willingness to love Bodie again, he wins personally on every other score, coming home, getting the dream promotion! Atoning? Not a lot, I don't think. He claims to have suffered during their separation but it is largely self-inflicted and borne in considerable comfort, it seems!
And does he deserve to be forgiven? By whom? Bodie? The reader? I'm not sure forgiveness for such major betrayals can come so easily - and maybe his atonement lies there - that perhaps Bodie will never quite believe in his love again, that he will never quite be trusted again. Forgiven by the reader, the outsider? Only if he looks after our guy, alright?
So, in the end, do I want them to be together? Yes, I do but for Bodie's sake, who has had such terrible treatment at the hands of those professing to care about him. If that means he needs to have Doyle - let him have Doyle! I can hardly believe I'm seeing Doyle in this light - I'm definitely a DD usually. So a testament to powerful writing, it seems.

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

I don't necessarily agree with Josh here - I think there are plenty of stories which are about love - if that is how you define a romance - both in fanfic and in RL literature where the outcome is much less certain than this but which are successful love stories because the writer engages us with the characters and make us care about them and what will become of them, without necessarily the certainty of "happy ever after". On that reckoning, Redemption is - witness this amazing discussion - undoubtedly a successful love story.

You're right. I should have made my thought clearer. In this particular romance/love story, KM has given us a happy ending which sets up a certain expected dynamic. In order for a happy ending to be successful, it's got to be believable. Otherwise it's just one of those schmaltzy unconvincing tacked-on things (that sometimes even results in weakening the story).

So what I'm actually saying is if KM has done her job, we believe in the happy ending she offers. If we don't believe, then something is amiss because (going simply by title alone) we are clearly expected to feel that Doyle has been redeemed.

And having said that, I have to quickly add that just because every story doesn't work for every reader doesn't mean that the writer hasn't done her job. No story is perfect for every reader, be it fan fiction or Pride and Prejudice.

[justacat.livejournal.com]

I am very, very late to the game here, but I'm going to dive in anyway.

When I was first reading the story, I was corresponding with a few people about it (including the author), and I thought and wrote in great detail in those emails about my feelings about Doyle in this story. I know some of this repeats bits of discussion that have already taken place, and I apologize about that, but it does (I hope!) lead up to my answer to the question you pose.

When I started the story the first time, and was reading the first half, I found Doyle - the "current-day" Doyle (as opposed to the Doyle of flashbacks) - hugely unsympathetic. Through Bodie's eyes, there is virtually *nothing* good to be seen in him - just mockery, malice, amusement, detachment, superiority; it seems like he's always laughing at Bodie, taking the piss, sometimes goading him, sometimes pitying him, criticizing him - that he's aware of but entirely unbothered by Bodie's distress; rather, coolly, distantly amused by it.

The first time through, this was all I could see, and I had no reason to believe anything different yet, no reason to believe Ray was anything other than what he seemed. Sometimes in this sort of situation it's possible to see through the unreliable POV character to what's really going on, even on first reading - but in the early parts of the story, this was pretty much impossible to do with Ray, at least for me on first reading.

On later readings I began to see more of what Ray was going on. In the earliest bits, Ray really isn't revealing much - he's acting cool, testing the waters, trying to figure out what's going on. really doing. But later he begins to have actual reactions, and on re-reading, I was able to see, that, for example, what Bodie takes to be mockery or criticism - "Morning, had a good sleep?" - probably isn't; that Ray is trying to be...perhaps cautiously friendly, maybe not sure how to go about it, feeling his way, but almost certainly not criticizing. I can see that what Bodie takes to be pity might really be Ray feeling real concern, or remorse, or compassion, or sadness. Moreover, as time passes, there are occasions when Bodie starts to thinks he sees something on Ray's face - a flash of emotion, something other than mockery or malice, something Bodie can't understand and doesn't think much about; with knowledge of Ray, I can make good guesses about what those might be.

But sometimes Ray really was goading Bodie, and on re-reading, it became clear to me why: just to try to get some sort of reaction out of him - anger, something! The reason this took me a while, I think, was because being inside Bodie's head, there was no sense that he was acting like an automaton. He was so full of seething emotions - I had no idea until Ray said it later that to Ray he seemed frozen, not like himself; Bodie seemed to think that his feelings were showing, and he was having so many feelings it was hard to believe that they weren't showing. So reading the first time, it felt like Ray was just being a bastard.

I love Bodie's reactions to Ray, too - looked at objectively, Ray doesn't really do much of anything, but Bodie's reactions to him are so extreme, so disproportionate - the fury and rage and resentment, the way he sees mockery and criticism in even the most innocuous of Ray's gestures and comments. To me this was very effective at conveying the intensity and depth of Bodie's feelings for Ray (particularly in contrast to his feelings for Nic), and the way he's never recovered from Ray's leaving - the immediacy of the feelings he's feeling, now, two years later, makes it so easy to believe that he must have been suppressing everything - ossifying - for the last two years. It's all as fresh to him as if it just happened, the emotions so ... raw.

Anyway, back to Doyle. Though I do believe that Bodie contributed to the breakdown of the original relationship (and that that's an important element), I also see that Doyle did betray him, and the betrayal, seen through Bodie's memory, hit me like a knife in the gut. It had enormous impact - as it needed to do, to justify the entire story, really.

[continued...]

[justacat.livejournal.com]

So...at this point in the story (on first reading, anyway), Doyle wasn't seeming all that sympathetic to me. And I agree that changing that - rehabilitating him, really, and making me believe in his rehabilitation - is key to the success of the story.

Well, for me Doyle was beyond rehabilitated - he was redeemed, completely and totally, as thoroughly as I ever possibly could have asked for, wanted, or imagined. It's like the two years of sorrow, of regret, have honed him, changed him, even though he's still got the same rat-tempered Doyle inside him. There's a quality to him...he's matured, maybe, but that doesn't capture it well enough. It's an almost exalted quality, though that sounds a little odd and isn't exactly right - like he's been purified, by his pain, though obviously he's not pure, not innocent...ennobled by it, dignified by it, maybe? None of those is quite right...I feel like the word is on the tip of my tongue, but I can't find it, and haven't been able to despite trying for months. The best I can do is "redeemed" - which is one reason the title works so well for me!

To back up a bit - there is a question about what Doyle needs to be redeemed for. Maybe it seems obvious, but...well, it's hard to separate out at first what actually happened from Bodie's emotions and perceptions. My own feeling about their relationship before the Sylvie incident is that both were to blame for the problems, and it wasn't one-sided. Doyle wasn't unwilling to commit, just unready - he tells Bodie he loves him, and I believe he means it. It wasn't a game for him. It seemed clear to me that he really was was trying. In the end he couldn't do it (and Bodie didn't help - made it incredibly difficult for him), but he tried; he took the thing with Bodie seriously; it was never a lark; he wasn't toying with Bodie's affections. Of course, he screws up. But this matters to me, in deciding whether the author convinces me that he should be "forgiven," later on, for that screw-up.

But the only thing, to my mind, that he really needs "forgiveness" for is Sylvie - not what happened before (or at least no more than Bodie), and not what happened when he comes back two years later, despite all the evils Bodie attributes to him. Bodie spends a lot of time and energy raging about how Ray's playing games with him, how Ray and Cowley are manipulating him, but there's no evidence I can see that Ray ever actually does manipulate him or play games with him. He discusses him with Cowley - but not, as far as I can tell, for the purpose of manipulating or playing games. Cowley certainly manipulated him, and continues to - though he also manipulated Ray - but I can't see that Ray does, even though Bodie thinks he does. (I know some others here see it differently, but to me what Ray is doing is not manipulation, and not game-playing - it's totally honest, if not totally straightforward - and I don't really see Ray having manipulated Bodie in the flashbacks, either.)

And Bodie spends a lot of time thinking he can't believe Doyle, but even he acknowledges after facing down Nic in the street that Ray never out-and-out lied to him to his face. Doyle dumped him - left him, fell in love with someone else and left him devastated, abandoned and lost and betrayed. But he was honest about his attraction to Ruth, his attraction to Laura; he didn't screw either of them - and he admitted to Bodie that he wanted to. It's true that he was screwing Sylvie before he told Bodie, but he told Bodie right away. There was no extended deception, no playing games and fucking around behind his back, making a fool of him.

So Doyle didn't lie, and he didn't manipulate, and I believe his feelings for Bodie were real, and that Bodie contributed to the fiasco. Nonetheless, the showdown about Sylvie reads like a punch in the gut, yes, a total and ultimate betrayal (even though I can see Ray's uncertainty even then - though Bodie can't). So in the end, for me, that's what Doyle needs to "atone" for.

[justacat.livejournal.com]

continued yet again...[sigh]...

And for me, he does. His explanations for it are so obviously (to me) sincere, and they ring so true, they're so believable, all too tragically predictable and obvious in retrospect. Even without the extenuating circumstances - i.e., the pressure brought to bear by Cowley, Nic's manipulation - it's so easy for me to see, and believe, how Doyle could have panicked as he did, been overwhelmed by his feelings and frightened by their intensity and how vulnerable they made him, how it all was happening too quickly and too soon (all of these are themes common to KM's stories, and ones that always resonate with me - they seem very believable for men like Bodie and Doyle), how he ended up - partly his own fault - pushed into commitment, into giving up women, too early - and how it was all exacerbated by Bodie's intense jealousy and paranoia. The way he acknowledges this, looks it in the face with sadness and regret and pain, but unflinchingly and brutally honestly, and with such obviously deeply heartfelt remorse, is so heartbreakingly moving. And the way he apologizes to Bodie - again, with no qualifications, no hesitation to shoulder the blame, and with such tenderness... both occasions where he says "I'm so fucking sorry" (or something to that effect) just kill me.

I don't know - there's something incredibly courageous - and even Bodie acknowledges it- about the way Doyle looks him in the eye, faces him with his grief, says: I made mistakes, and I regret them, and I'm so sorry, and I want you back, and - even if you won't take me back, you're still what I want; I've made my choice and I'm sticking to it. There's nowhere to hide with that, no way to back out and pretend it hasn't been said, or that he meant something else. No hedging, no hiding...

So - if it's not clear *g* - in the end, I think Doyle is one of the great strengths of this story. I think he's just...beautiful. If anything, one of the things that very, very, very slightly bugged me about the story was Bodie's seeming unwillingness to give as much back to Ray, after he decides to take him back - to trust him. I felt that Doyle had beyond redeemed himself, atoned, paid the price; that Bodie obviously thought so, since he did agree to take him back, and Bodie on numerous occasions - at least three or four - acknowledges his own role in the whole fiasco...and we know that Bodie is never going to give Ray up, because he thinks it on more than one occasion, and seems bewildered that Ray doesn't see it and has this lingering insecurity - but does he ever tell Ray? The "strained smile" that Ray gets in the last line or so still kills me, I have to admit... And perhaps this is because I do so totally believe in Ray's redemption. (Though I do understand that it's still a bit too early - there's a price to be paid for their happiness, and ending the story while they're still "healing" reminds us of this...)

Okay, enough already... If I haven't made it clear *g*, this story really, really worked for me; I've been dying to talk about it and am sorry I missed most of this discussion. I keep wondering if I can work it into my Kate MacLean essay, but I think it deserves its own! (Clearly, though this is no surprise, I am incapable of brevity and only end up co-opting other people's posts...)

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

and we know that Bodie is never going to give Ray up, because he thinks it on more than one occasion, and seems bewildered that Ray doesn't see it and has this lingering insecurity - but does he ever tell Ray? The "strained smile" that Ray gets in the last line or so still kills me, I have to admit... And perhaps this is because I do so totally believe in Ray's redemption. (Though I do understand that it's still a bit too early - there's a price to be paid for their happiness, and ending the story while they're still "healing" reminds us of this...)

What do you make of the fact that Bodie never actually says the words "I love you" in response to Doyle?

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet.

possessiveness & acting out

[paris7am.livejournal.com]

This story, and discussing it, exchanging views and ideas, is incredible! If only I had a bigger brain! or a whole series of brains I could connect into a super-brain, so I could wrap my thoughts around all of the concepts and questions which Redemption and discussing it inspires.

Possessiveness. Josh mentioned (in reference to Doyle) how his possessive response to Bodie (and Nic) brought to mind the 'classic hunting male' (I hope I'm paraphrasing correctly!). He continued that on the other hand Bodie isn't merely possessive, he repeatedly accuses Doyle of cheating or of wanting to cheat -- long before Doyle actually does succumb to temptation. He interrogates him, accuses him of lying, is suspicious, jealous, insecure and clearly terrified of losing Doyle. (Josh)

S2K thought that perhaps it's a function of how Doyle pressures Bodie to be exclusive to him and Bodie conforms without a struggle, so Doyle doesn't have to behave in the same way i.e. possessive, clinging etc.

I was thinking that while Bodie is fighting for them to be together, Doyle is fighting in a sense because he *doesn't* want them to be together. Bodie finds Doyle's possessiveness *attractive* and reassuring, takes it as natural and normal, as proof of Doyle's care and desire (right up to the end!) whereas Doyle's response to Bodie's possessiveness cannot be more different. Incredible.

This sort of echos what BSL says, what clinched the empathy for [Doyle], was the fact that he and Bodie are such different characters, with such different outlooks, and of course neither is wrong, they just come from different backgrounds and so on.

I can absolutely understand what BSL means here, and I sway between seeing things that way and then taking the other side... - sort of what I said here, that although they are both at fault, both make mistakes: it seems to me that I am much more willing to forgive or understand Bodie's reactions than Doyle's, and I think it's because of what I perceive his motivation to be, at heart - that Bodie (after a point) is purely in love with Doyle and is yearning FOR that. Doyle on the other hand seems to be acting out for the opposite reason - he's in love, yes, and he's fighting AGAINST that while still acting out. I can see that they are *both* at fault, but I know that I can't always see that neither is wrong... To me, there *is* an imbalance.

BSL asked, what [do] you mean by Doyle "acting out" - what do you see him acting out?... I think you mentioned that Bodie is "acting out" too, and I can sort of imagine that I understand you there a bit better somehow - but maybe not? I think that I used it as an umbrella for many of the behaviours which were hurtful and damaging to their relationship two years before and lead up to the split. I think that one of the more serious examples was Doyle's double standard of expecting Bodie to drop women and remain exclusive to him while he continued on with attracting women himself. Does that make sense or answer your question to me, BSL? I *want* to be crystal clear - I feel like I'm using my hands to find my way in the dark - these issues are so emotional and visceral - and if I think about it hard enough I may end up on the other side of what I originally thought.

Re: possessiveness & acting out

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

Well done Paris, I think you *are* connected to your super-brain as you managed to draw all these competing threads together and make them into one coherent whole. Thanks!

[paris7am.livejournal.com]

I was thinking about how when we read a story we particularly love we often complain that it's impossible to quote because we want to quote the entire text? I'm finding that applies to this discussion as well... I want to go through and just quote it all! YES, yes, read this bit, and this, and yes, exactly what I wanted to say! I try and hold myself back. It makes me think, too, of those threads where you only communicate through the icon you chose - no other words involved... except my urge is to use quotes from the discussion... as in "here - read *this* quote" and then "and this one too".

One bit which had me adding mental exclamation points all over it was this from Justacat: looked at objectively, Ray doesn't really do much of anything, but Bodie's reactions to him are so extreme, so disproportionate - the fury and rage and resentment, the way he sees mockery and criticism in even the most innocuous of Ray's gestures and comments. To me this was very effective at conveying the intensity and depth of Bodie's feelings for Ray Yes, yes, and yes. Another example of the brilliance of the way in which the story was constructed, the brilliance in the details and how they all fit together, so rightly.

In the latest string of comments, I love how there are differing views and ideas, but they each seem to ring true to me - both sides of one coin - on the question of whether Doyle has "atoned" - should he be forgiven? *has* he been redeemed? Rosie says

Do I think Doyle has atoned in the story? On balance, I think not! ....The only atonement seems to be his willingness to love Bodie again, he wins personally on every other score, coming home, getting the dream promotion! Atoning? Not a lot, I don't think. He claims to have suffered during their separation but it is largely self-inflicted and borne in considerable comfort, it seems! And does he deserve to be forgiven? By whom? Bodie? The reader? I'm not sure forgiveness for such major betrayals can come so easily - and maybe his atonement lies there - that perhaps Bodie will never quite believe in his love again, that he will never quite be trusted again.

I can *completely* agree with her opinions and ideas, and see them supported in the story, absolutely! There is a deep grief which remains, very very deep grief and if it is to heal it will take time...Simultaneously, I can read Justacat's comment

for me Doyle was beyond rehabilitated - he was redeemed, completely and totally, as thoroughly as I ever possibly could have asked for, wanted, or imagined. It's like the two years of sorrow, of regret, have honed him, changed him, even though he's still got the same rat-tempered Doyle inside him. There's a quality to him...he's matured, [clip] like he's been purified, by his pain, though obviously he's not pure, not innocent...ennobled by it, dignified by it

and understand what she means, completely. I think that I will always differ with this as far as the role Doyle plays in it all, and disagree about the balances of fault and reparation ... but I can *see* it, and recognize it, remember thinking about seeing the same thing in his face while reading the text.

I have to quote this thought from Justacat: This story feels to me very much like a tragedy, in the Greek or Shakespearean sense - no single person or thing to blame, but a combination of external forces - fate, fortune, the gods, and circumstances - and internal - human error and frailty. There's a sort of inevitability about it.

Yes.

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

In the latest string of comments, I love how there are differing views and ideas, but they each seem to ring true to me - both sides of one coin - on the question of whether Doyle has "atoned" - should he be forgiven? *has* he been redeemed? Rosie says

"Do I think Doyle has atoned in the story? On balance, I think not! ....The only atonement seems to be his willingness to love Bodie again, he wins personally on every other score, coming home, getting the dream promotion! Atoning? Not a lot, I don't think."

There's truth to this. I think in his fear of commitment, Doyle was temporarily seduced by his long-standing fantasy of heterosexual romance including marriage and affluent stability. He comes to his senses within two weeks, which is pretty fast, really, but the damage is done.

I can't remember now who mentioned the fact that Doyle seems to talk only about his own suffering and pain, rather than focusing on what Bodie has gone through.

I was considering that from a writing standpoint, and I don't believe that KM could have handled it any differently. Since we already know what Bodie has suffered, there's no point Doyle belaboring the point for us. It's made clear that he understands and regrets what he's done.

I think the most satisfying thing for the reader -- okay, for this reader -- is to hear about Doyle's pain because otherwise how do we know he's truly sorry and that he's paid enough of a price for his betrayal? And we have no other means of finding this out except through Doyle's dialog because who else would know? The story is told exclusively through Bodie's POV.

So for me, hearing about Doyle's pain and misery, worked. It ameliorated my anger with him.

The other thing that I think KM does well, that is realistic, is that neither Bodie nor Doyle are overly articulate about what they're thinking and feelng. They communicate but neither of them is capable of analyzing and detailing exactly what they're feeling and thinking for the other, which is a little more accurate. Doyle's aching, "I'm so fucking sorry," feels more genuine and heartfelt that the kind of post-game analysis you typically would find in the last few pages of a Harlequin romance where everything is neatly explained for the reader and all wounds are healed on schedule.

I can *completely* agree with her opinions and ideas, and see them supported in the story, absolutely! There is a deep grief which remains, very very deep grief and if it is to heal it will take time...

To use one of my own favorite cliches, the story resonates. It does.

Simultaneously, I can read Justacat's comment

"for me Doyle was beyond rehabilitated - he was redeemed, completely and totally, as thoroughly as I ever possibly could have asked for, wanted, or imagined."

Yes, it's more than the What Not to Wear makeover. Doyle seems tempered by his own suffering. He's more controlled, more patient. He's prepared to back off if Bodie is truly happy. Even when he thinks he's lost at getting Bodie back, he tries to protect him from the truth about Nic. That's unselfish and a clear sign of how he's matured. He wants to return to CI5 -- he never really wanted to leave -- and his dream promotion, but he's willing to walk away from that as well, and I think we are expected to recognize this for the sacrifice it is.

[justacat.livejournal.com]

Tempered! That's a good word! I can add it to my list! :-D

[alicambs.livejournal.com]

*Cries into the apparent wilderness*

Am I the only person in fandom who utterly detests extreme angst and tragedy and considers KM's writing of Doyle, in particular, complete and utter gross mischaracterisation?

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

Am I the only person in fandom who utterly detests extreme angst and tragedy and considers KM's writing of Doyle, in particular, complete and utter gross mischaracterisation?

Wow. This is fascinating. I LOVE Doyle. Probaby even more than I love Bodie, which is saying something, and I felt her portrait was shrewd and sympathetic.

Do you dislike the portrayal of Doyle in Yellow Brick Road as well?

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

No.

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

I wonder how she managed to justify the part where Doyle wants Bodie to dump Veronica?

Thinking about this...it's not like Doyle threatened to shoot Bodie if he didn't give her up. Bodie did have some choice in the matter. He chose to give into this demand of Doyle's. Yes, because he loved him and wanted them to be exclusive and undoubtedly thought this was the right move in the right direction, but Bodie surely has to bear some responsibility for agreeing to this demand?

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

Trying to catch up:

BSL wrote:
But I think, for me, what clinched the empathy for him, was the fact that he and Bodie are such different characters, with such different outlooks, and of course neither is wrong, they just come from different backgrounds and so on. I think (*dredges memory*)

They *are* different characters and I can understand most things about Doyle’sbehaviour: falling in love with someone else; with his desire and need to be a free spirit; I can even understand his fear of his love for Bodie and Bodie’s love for him; but what I find hard to understand and where I think he *was* wrong is in his initial insistence that Bodie should drop Veronica - I think it was hypocritical and selfish. At that stage Bodie was trying desperately to normalize the relationship because he knew they were skating on thin ice (sorry for the cliché but life’s too short for original thought) and could be heading for a fall if they didn’t.

Paris reminded us of this:
I also remember this - I think that in the end, during one of their conversations Doyle says something to the effect of "If you'd just let me see women at the same time, I would have eventually recognized that all I really wanted was you."

Again, Doyle seems to want his cake and eat it: OK, he fell in love and left Bodie but not only is he laying the blame for that at Bodie’s door he also wants exactly what's he trying to deny Bodie: other women. And echoing Paris, it smacks of double standards, taking advantage of Bodie's feelings for him - that he could get away with it.

Alicambs wrote:
Am I the only person in fandom who utterly detests extreme angst and tragedy and considers KM's writing of Doyle, in particular, complete and utter gross mischaracterisation?

When I first read Redemption I also thought this just isn't the Doyle I recognise at all - someone who seems to be enjoying Bodie's misery, who is cold and callous towards Bodie and who seems to be closer to Cowley than to his old partner. But then gradually the penny dropped and I thought this is just Bodie's perception of everything, a paranoid perception, and hopefully my original view was wrong.

Justacat wrote:
Interestingly, I know of a fan who read the story who was fairly indifferent to it because she could feel no sympathy for Bodie. She felt the entire breakdown of the original relationship was largely Bodie's fault; Doyle may have been *looking* at women, but he wasn't *doing* anything, not until Bodie's possessiveness and paranoia and jealousy became so oppressive that he felt utterly trapped - if you feel that way, I'll give you something to be jealous of!

Specifically,

She felt the entire breakdown of the original relationship was largely Bodie's fault;

I wonder how she managed to justify the part near the beginning where Doyle wants Bodie to dump Veronica?

Cliches

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

because he knew they were skating on thin ice (sorry for the cliché but life’s too short for original thought)

Sheesh. Can I just state here and now for the record that any comments I make about writing refer strictly and solely to fiction writing. We all use cliches in dialog and discussion and informal writing, and no one needs to give it a second thought. I sure don't intend to.

[justacat.livejournal.com]

I wonder how she managed to justify the part near the beginning where Doyle wants Bodie to dump Veronica?

Well, it's like jgraeme2007 said - the fact that Doyle wants him to do it doesn't mean he has to. Bodie's the one who decides to dump Veronica. If Bodie really was so convinced that Doyle was just going to hurt him in the end, he could have refused to accede, could have hung on to her. Doyle can want whatever he wants, but he has no power to make Bodie dump her - and in fact, Doyle doesn't even use what power he might have, because he doesn't try to coerce him, doesn't threaten to cut off their relationship if Bodie doesn't. As far as we know, Bodie could have kept on seeing Veronica and sleeping with Doyle - it was his choice not to, his choice to do what Doyle wanted him to do.

I'm not saying I agree with this fan who felt the entire thing was essentially Bodie's fault - but I don't think that what Doyle did, objectively, was nearly as bad as it seems when filtered through Bodie's perception. I think that...well, I think part of the whole problem is that Bodie incredibly exaggerates the "evilness" of what Doyle's done because he is so furious at himself for having let himself become vulnerable to Doyle - he blames Doyle partly because he's so humiliated by what he sees as his own weakness. Doyle got him where it hurts the most, and it's that that he can't forgive, not that what Doyle did was so unbelievably horrible in the grand scheme of relationships.

But the truth is...he never trusted Doyle. Now, you could say - as Nic does - well, see, and he was right not to. But it's a bit of a vicious cycle, because to me it's fairly clear that feeling pressured, trapped, not trusted, at least contributed to Doyle "breaking."

Anyway, I do feel huge sympathy for Bodie in this story, and I do feel that Doyle has done something for which he must atone, and must be forgiven, etc...he was selfish. But I think his failings were human, and understandable, and not of some unforgivable magnitude (despite Bodie's perception - which I also understand, though), and KM writes him in a way such that I feel enormous sympathy for him, too - which for me makes the story so powerful. Like I said, in the end, I almost felt like she was too tough on Doyle, and Bodie isn't quite giving enough back...

Part 4

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

Please take any more comments over to part 4. Thanks.