Pros Novel Read-Along - Painted Angels by Angelfish - Chapter One

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yeay, it's time for our weekly chat about the Pros Novel Read-Along chapter! We're on:

Painted Angels by Angelfish.
Cover art by firlefanzine

Chapter One

Chapter One opens with a sharp, snappy statement: William Bodie - too tough for the SAS. This chapter is mostly from Bodie's point of view (with interludes from Cowley's pov, from Doyle's and even from Murphy's). He's involved in both being recruited to CI5 and training recruits in CI5, and we meet him tutoring them with guns on a range, but the emphasis in the chapter is on why he's really there. Despite the fiction of being seconded to CI5 from the SAS, he has in fact been thrown out - his old boss, Robert Marsh, won't take him back if he can't make it in CI5, although he's convinced Cowley to take him on rather than simply discharging him.

Bodie, it turns out, killed one too many people who shouldn't have had to die while he was in the SAS, and Marsh is finding it hard to justify things any more. The most recent was a man who had already surrendered - others have included suspects in holding cells.

The trouble is, Cowley finds, Bodie has brought his old ways to CI5 as well - he also has a suspect dead in a holding cell after Bodie has finished interrogating him. Cowley got the information he wanted, so he doesn't simply get rid of Bodie either, but Bodie's got one last chance - and a punishment. He's being demoted to simply another recruit, no more "semi-tutorial role", and he will have to accept being partnered with one of the other recruits at the end of the training.

Bodie of course, is not happy - he doesn't think much of the recruits, and certainly not DS Doyle, who started out in art school, moved onto the Met and then got his partner shot, so that he worked alone after that, and worked hard at moving up through the ranks (so now we know what happened to Doyle in between the Prologue and turning up in CI5!) "Bodie knows the type. Activated by perceived injustice, on a solo mission to set the world to rights." He has to concede that Doyle's a decent shot, though, and as Bodie's "a good teacher" he sees that although he's an excellent shot, Doyle's not used to semiautomatic weapons, and needs to adjust his stance to avoid the worst of the recoil. He steps up behind him, and reaches around...

...and is promptly blocked from doing so, Doyle using a combat move that Bodie's never seen before. He "doesn't like being crept up on". Bodie asks permission to touch him this time, and with a slight correction Doyle is able to avoid the recoil as well as shoot perfectly. Doyle, meanwhile, is finding that something he's done many times before, as both trainee and trainer, is having a strange effect on him this time - he's aware of "the firm pectorals, whisper of six-pack down his spine". He manages to control it though, including when Bodie pushes at him, about whether he's ever had to shoot people as well as targets (five, but none killed) and whether his broken cheekbone bothers him. In fact, Doyle gets in the last word, and it's Bodie who's left feeling thrown.

Finally, we see Bodie confronting Murphy, and it turns out that they were mates and lovers in the SAS, and joined CI5 together - "when they decided to try for Cowley's outfit" (?But we've been told Bodie was sent off on secondment, so ?). Murphy is rejoining his old mountain rescue squad, and he suggests that Bodie moves with him - but Bodie won't, as he knew he wouldn't, and Murphy confesses that one of the reasons he's going is that Bodie's violence has got too much for him as well. Bodie tries to convince him with one last blow job, and blocks his way out of the room, falling to his knees - but Murphy is stronger-willed than that, and gently deflects him. Things are over between them, Bodie has become "cruel. Unmanageable".

Murphy leaves Bodie on his knees in the empty squad room, "steps around him and out".

And that's where we're left at the end of Chapter One! A quick reminder - no spoilers for later chapters in the novel please, if you've read ahead. Otherwise - have at it in the comments! *g*

Comments

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'm going to jump right in and comment today (I'm trying to keep my opinions separate from the summary of the chapters, let me know if I ever mess that up!)

So... I have to admit that I was thrown straight away in Chapter One, because this Bodie is not one that I recognise from the eps. Okay, I can go with "too tough for the SAS" (sort of), but when Angelfish has him shooting people who've surrendered, and killing suspects in cold blood (or even murderous rages) in custody, then she lost me. Not only do I not think that any government agency would tolerate that behaviour more than once (not even the SAS and CI5), but I just don't see Bodie in the eps as that vicious, uncontrolled person. You can probably argue that this is pre-eps, but the authors is going to have to work amazingly hard to prove to me that this Bodie can turn into our Bodie.

He's also just a little too god-like for me in other ways - all in black, perfect body, apparently perfect in sex, the perfect shot with all kinds of weapons (implied), and so much more advanced professionally than any of the other recruits (presumably the only one from the SAS, then).

The author seems to have a better take on Doyle, I think - his actions fit with having closed himself off as we saw after Gabe, and as he might in response to his Met partner being killed, but he's also shown as still human. Other than pushing Bodie away when he's touched unexpectedly, he's civil and somewhat friendly - "Grinning, Doyle turns back to the range..." He's also not intimidated by Bodie, which is the Doyle I see in the eps, and up to matching him in put-downs.

Oh, and then Murphy...! Presumably the author thinks Murphy left CI5 (since we don't see him for many many eps) and then returned to it, which doesn't quite make sense to me, but okay. I don't see Bodie and Murphy being previous colleagues and lovers, even if they are friendly in the eps. (does that mean that Doyle was Jax' lover, or Benny's, or...? just because we see them as friends in the eps?), and I never like the portrayal of Murph as this incredibly laid-back, understanding and wise man who's the only one (except Doyle and Cowley), who's able to handle Bodie. Another god-like character - and also a bit of a cliche, these days (and when this fic was written) in Pros fanfic, I think. I know lots of people will disagree. *g*

And finally - where was the beta for this fic?! Bodie was seconded (because he was being thrown out of the SAS) and he and Murphy decided to leave the SAS and apply for CI5 together? With a bit of fancy manoeuvering I can perhaps slide my brain into believing that Bodie managed to convince Murphy that's what was happening (especially as Bodie is so smart and etc.), but I know I'm forcing myself to believe it, so...

Okay - I'm expecting alot of disagreement here about all this - feel free! *vbg*

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with you on a lot of this. And considering how Doyle was set up, it sounds as if their relationship is going to have a bit of the dom/sub vibe to it, which I really don't like. One of the things I've always especially liked about their relationship on the show is that it was between equals.

And, again, agree about the Murphy thing. I can just imagine Doyle throwing a jealous fit because he finds out about Murphy, or sees them together, or something along those lines. I really don't like when a writer pairs up everyone on a show, as if all of CI5, or Starfleet, or whatever, is manned (or womanned,) by mostly gay people. It's not realistic.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Hmmn - not sure I get the dom/sub vibe, with the way Doyle was able to push back at Bodie on the shooting range (unless you mean that Bodie's going to be sub, because he went to his knees for Murphy - I know alot of people seem to like that too). I'm like you - I totally see them as equals in the eps. Although some authors can convince me that they play at sex differently, like Kitty Fisher - but they's still shown as equals, so...

I know what you mean about some fics making everyone gay. I totally get that lots of people at least have bi tendencies, but... yeah. Sometimes it feels like too much, like an author's trying too hard to make a different world, especially when it's somewhere relatively small and macho like CI5. Though they're also supposed to be intelligent, so it would be nice to think they're more open-minded - but I don't think it works that way. Yet. I hope, yet.

I tend to go for "staffed"... *g*

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

No, I meant that Doyle would be the sub. Yes, he does react to being touched, but even that seems an over-reaction, especially since he then realizes that what Bodie did was correct. But the foundation she sets for his character was a bit too soft for me. I realize that they were teenagers, but closer to men than boys. It was easier for me to imagine two very young boys, closer to thirteen than sixteen.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

but even that seems an over-reaction, especially since he then realizes that what Bodie did was correct
It was correct, but he wasn't expecting it, so I can see how he'd freak if he doesn't like being touched any more.

I realize that they were teenagers, but closer to men than boys
Oh I dunno - 17 is still pretty young, not just for sex, but for hormones vs confidence, and especially when it's gay sex, which was illegal until 1967 over here. That's a whole lot of baggage alongside just ordinary hormones vs confidence, if you ask me... Although Doyle worked for me better than Gabe did, but that's probably because I've not got the whole Catholic-guilt thing happening - and as I said to someone above, I'm not convinced that Gabe would be thinking about rape in this situation...

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

I really don't like when a writer pairs up everyone on a show, as if all of CI5, or Starfleet, or whatever, is manned (or womanned,) by mostly gay people

I agree.

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

Me too!

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Just wanted to say thanks very much for your post and for going over the first chapter. Even though I'd read it last weekend (and noted down a couple of things) I've already forgotten some of the finer points! I can't reply fully now but, in the words of the great man: I'LL BE BACK!!!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I had to be really good and not read it until this morning, because I knew I'd forget things I wanted to say, otherwise!

And yeay for being back... *vbg*

[jat-sapphire.livejournal.com]

Well, you won't get it from me. The visual images are strong, but ... I feel like I'm reading a different Lewis Collins role. What I like in Bodie is that although he can be angry and violent, it's not without cause, and then there is that whole other side, the playful, silly, joking side.

I've read a number of fics in this past year that show one or both of them as this damaged, and though I see the appeal of a redemption arc ... I don't see anything like it in the actual episodes. Thank god. Seeing it now gives me a feeling like the one I had as a teen, reading Harlequin/Mills and Boon-type romances and, instead of wanting the couple to be together, thinking, "Run, girl! Now!"

But just as I'm thinking that this Bodie doesn't deserve to pull anybody into his wobbly orbit, he tries, and he tries so hard for that connection that it's heartbreaking. He's terrible at it. But he keeps trying. He wants to be human, but he doesn't know how.

And I admire the writing. That image of Bodie flushing with rage like blood in milk, I'll remember that for a long time.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

although he can be angry and violent, it's not without cause, and then there is that whole other side, the playful, silly, joking side
Yes, exactly! That's how I see him too. And I think if he was deep-down callous and brutal, then that joking silliness would come out in entirely different ways... I can go with a redemption arc, but I've got to believe that someone can go from A to B with the background they've had. Actually it's one problem that I often have with Angelfish - I do like her writing, which can be exquisite, but she tends to damage the lads so badly that I just can't see them being in CI5 to start with. It feels a bit like that with Bodie in this story, though I think she's avoided it with Doyle so far... although we certainly see people touching him in the eps without being thrown off, so I guess he's got some redemption coming too, if he's going to be canon-Doyle.

He wants to be human, but he doesn't know how.
See, that's what I don't get in Bodie - our Bodie is beautifully human. Flawed human, yes, which I think we see alot of in Close Quarters and Klansmen, but flawed in the way that ordinary people are before they start thinking things through. I tend to wince a bit if the lads are given orbits which are too wobbly, but.. well, we'll see, I guess! *g*

[dawnebeth.livejournal.com]

Yes, I'll admit--I'm finding this novel a bit difficult to get through. I wasn't thrilled by the prologue, although I could see where the author got some of her head canon (I've often given Doyle an alcoholic Irish da in my stories, too) but already having gay sex with Gabe, etc, didn't ring true to moi.

Bodie was barely recognisable. I've never seen him as all beautiful, the perfect soldier, etc, but here he's dangerous and seemingly uncontrollable. One wonders why Cowley would put such a flawed, potentially violent person in charge of the cadets. I particularly don't like the idea of him and Murphy together--especially that they've known each other and been fuck buddies since the army,

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I'm curious about why Doyle having sex with Gabe when he was 17-ish didn't ring true for you?

One wonders why Cowley would put such a flawed, potentially violent person in charge of the cadets.
The CI5 recruits? Yes, I wondered that too - and why Cowley would leave him alone interrogating a suspect, when Marsh (and so presumably Cowley) knows that he's killed men under interrogation before. It just doesn't ring true!

Bodie and Murphy having such a long history doesn't make sense to me either - or perhaps I just don't want it to! He has to have that deep connection with Doyle, not Murphy!

[macklingirl.livejournal.com]

I can't disagree with you because I have my problems with the first chapter too. This Bodie is not my Bodie. He might be more violent than Doyle in the eps, but I can't see him shooting a person who openly surrendered. I think that would be a reason to throw him out of the SAS.

And I can't see Bodie and Murphy as lovers. They are to similar and I don't think that Bodie is into narcissism and for me that would be way of narcissism to have a lover who looks in a sort of way like yourself. Both are with dark hair and blue eyes. Both are of the same height. So, best friends and really good mates ok, but not lovers.

And yes, where was the beta. I had to read the thing with te secondement for three times because it didn't fit into the think that Robert Marsh wanted to get rid of him.

Good was the part when he shows Doyle what his fault is with the weapon. I could see both of them in this scene. Doyle defending himself when he is crept up from behind and touched without permission. And the astonished Bodie who weren't expecting such an unknown move.

What I can see clear in my head is Cowley who knows Bodie's value for CI5, but knows too that he has to put Bodie into the place where he belongs. And that is a place under Cowley's supervision. And Cowley knows what to do about it and puts Bodie back to the recruits. That was a good idea.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

He might be more violent than Doyle in the eps
See, I'm not sure that this is true really. I know it's supposed to be, and it's Bodie who's always being told by Cowley not to kill people, but I think we actually see Doyle being more violent. He throws people off buildings, and loses his temper much more than Bodie does.

but I can't see him shooting a person who openly surrendered. I think that would be a reason to throw him out of the SAS.
Yes, exactly! And I just can't see him doing it as Bodie, either. Not the Bodie we see in the eps.

Hee about Bodie/Murphy being a kind of narcissism! I'm not sure about that, to be honest (so we should only date people who have opposite features to us?! But I like dark hair!) For me it's more that their personalities don't fit, I think.

I liked Bodie showing Doyle the right stance too - and especially that Doyle surprised him, and stood up to him!

Cowley knows what to do about it and puts Bodie back to the recruits. That was a good idea.
Yes, I agree. Although I'm not sure Cowley would have had Bodie training them just cos he was in the SAS - so any SAS recruit to CI5 is automatically above the others? If he has them training each other in their own areas of expertise that would make sense though (so I'm going to at least imagine that's what happened. *g*)

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

"...So... I have to admit that I was thrown straight away in Chapter One, because this Bodie is not one that I recognise from the eps."
Phew! I'm so glad to read this, because I feel exactly the same!
I was just on my way out (we have sunshine! :-)) to reread the chapter, but then I saw your entry here.
And I couldn't suppress my curiosity.

I thought, ok, Bodie ist more 'killing machine' than we are used to, but certainly he just needs Doyle to make him more humon. But then we learn that Murphy is his lover, and he didn't manage to calm that Bodie down - so why should Doyle be more successful?

Something more is strange for me.
"...(Bodie is)so angry that he can barely breathe. The only place that he would like to be is back in the holding cell with Marik Habib, letting his fists crunch once more into human flesh and bone..."

But then he tries to help Doyle, and Doyle fights back - but Bodie doesn't use the opportunity to act on his fantasies of violence.
Instead Bodie 'is amused'. And he asks:

"Who taught you that?"

"Taught me what?"

"That block. It's not bad."

IMO that doesn't fit!

But all that won't throw me out of the story!
Because I like this scene above and I hope there will be more that way! :-)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

but certainly he just needs Doyle to make him more humon. But then we learn that Murphy is his lover, and he didn't manage to calm that Bodie down - so why should Doyle be more successful?
Oh, good point...!

Hmmn - I suppose Bodie was in a different situation with Habib and with Doyle, even if they both fought against him in their own different ways? So when he feels he has to be a tough SAS-type interrogator, he lets his violence take over, but when he's supposed to be with people on his own side, that he doesn't have to be aggressive with, he can let his better personality take over..? Maybe that's where he's going to become the Bodie we know and love...

[franciskerst.livejournal.com]

I'll be short: this Bodie, as he is described here, should be in jail, not in CI5.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Very short - and to the point! I can't say that I disagree with you, either...

[livejournal.livejournal.com]

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[ali15son.livejournal.com]

this is not my Bodie and i know i have to read the chapter because this is part of his background but to me it's a harsh Bodie and not one that i associate with him. I do like the part when Bodie is stood behind Doyle, correcting his shooting stance " Doyle is keenly aware of his seperate muscle structures - the firm pectorals, whisper of six pack down his spine" now that bit i do like.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I think the part where Bodie was correcting Doyle's shooting stance was my favourite too - and I liked that Doyle stood up to Bodie, and wasn't intimidated by him at all! *g*

I agree that this Bodie seems very harsh - and I'm not convinced he could get away with the sort of brutality the author describes and not be thrown out of any of the forces, either!

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

He's also just a little too god-like for me in other ways - all in black, perfect body, apparently perfect in sex, the perfect shot with all kinds of weapons (implied),

I can see that but it didn’t really bother me as long as an author is just exaggerating a character rather than completely misrepresenting them. That’s part of the attraction of fan fiction for me - the chance to play around with canon and make of the characters what you will. And happily for me (again!) the Bodie in this story (so far) is my kind of Bodie. Which takes me to a note I made last week when I read this chapter…. Why is it that I like this brutal, violent Bodie? What makes him so attractive? Hopefully it’s not because I’m brutal and violent or so unoriginal that I imagine being able to ‘tame’ him. No, I think it’s partly because the darker and more unreachable Bodie is depicted, then the more intriguing/fascinating is the eventual relationship between him and Doyle (and the fact that it's happened in the first place).

but I just don't see Bodie in the eps as that vicious,

I agree with this, I can’t see Bodie killing someone in custody deliberately but perhaps accidentally? The guy died from a blow to the head I think? (Can't spell the right medical term.) I can see that happening if things got out of hand or if there’s some kind of pre-existing condition. Doyle believed that he’d killed Coogan’s brother with one punch to the guts and even though it turns out he wasn’t responsible, then presumably he thought it was possible and that’s without even trying. But yes, an out of control Bodie isn’t the Bodie I recognise from the episodes.

And Bodie and Murphy's relationship… another note I made last week was that I couldn’t work out how they knew each other originally – where they’d met – and that was bugging me, but then much later on the answer popped up, but somehow I couldn’t see Murphy in the SAS - he seems too laid back and relaxed! And Bodie and Murphy together? No, that jarred on me

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

as long as an author is just exaggerating a character rather than completely misrepresenting them ... the chance to play around with canon and make of the characters what you will.
Ooh, this is interesting, because actually it's just what I don't want from a fic! Well, to a certain point, anyway... I don't want authors making what they will of our lads' characters, because it's their characters that I like in the eps! If I can't see at least a decent dollop of those ep-characters, then I can't believe in the story, because it might as well be about other people with the same names.

Actually that's probably not quite what you mean anyway, and not entirely what i mean. I mean Sebastian exaggerates Doyle's vindictiveness, and I can still go along with her stories. And Rhiannon makes the lads into completely other people - but they work for me, because I can see the essence of our lads there, in pretty much everything they do. And I don't think I can see Bodie's essence in this story, and I'm not convinced that his essence could emerge from what we're told of him so far...

No, I think it’s partly because the darker and more unreachable Bodie is depicted, then the more intriguing/fascinating is the eventual relationship between him and Doyle (and the fact that it's happened in the first place).
Interesting again... (you always write interesting things!) I like the idea of their eventual relationship emerging from interesting places too (although I also like the idea that they turn out to be so similar, deep down, that they're automatically them-against-the-world *g*). I'm just not convinced that Bodie is that unreachable... if anything, I'd almost say that ep-Doyle was the unreachable one, because although we see him being friendly with people, we also see him being very violent (more so than Bodie, perhaps - I keep coming back to the number of people he throws off buildings!). So - would it work for you if the difficulty between their relationship was actually on Doyle's side, rather than Bodie's? That there was something dark and unreachable about Doyle that had to be surmounted?

I just can't see Bodie being such a cold-blooded killer - in fact worse, enjoying it "...even the knowledge of having killed him cannot quench his thirst to do it again." (the violent beating someone up in cold blood to the point that they could die, even if he didn't mean to actually kill him). In fact in Heroes Bodie says to Doyle that the difference between him and Tommy is that Bodie doesn't like it.
BODIE: Tommy's a lousy thing to be, he's a killer.
DOYLE: And what makes you so different?
BODIE: The difference is, Doyle, I do it, but I don't enjoy it.
As you say, someone might die "by accident" (although I'm kind of on Mather's (and real life's!) side there - you shouldn't be hitting people so hard that it turns out to be a possibility!) and it happened to Doyle in The Rack, but it's not the first time that Bodie's killed someone in custody, according to Marsh, and he doesn't seem to have learned where to draw the line, or that he should draw one - "Suspects die unexpectedly in holding cells." - plural.

All that said, I suppose there is the line - "...facing...a return to private soldiering. To friendlessness, dishonour and African dust" Which doesn't quite fit with the idea that Bodie doesn't mind killing people as murder/against common honour/decency. So now that strikes me as something else that should have been betad away...

Also, actually, I can't really believe in a Cowley who forgives Bodie for a man's death just because he got the information he wanted first. I can see him forgiving Bodie for it, but not for that reason. Cowley's cold-blooded (e.g. shooting Manton), but I don't think he lets his agents be like that except under strict orders (although now I'm thinking about that too - hmmn, does he?)

somehow I couldn’t see Murphy in the SAS - he seems too laid back and relaxed!
Yes! That's what was bugging me, but I didn't realise it! I totally agree with this!

Part 1

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Me again and sorry about the earlier cock up. I've been told I've got to put this into two parts, so....

I don't want authors making what they will of our lads' characters, because it's their characters that I like in the eps! If I can't see at least a decent dollop of those ep-characters, then I can't believe in the story, because it might as well be about other people with the same names.
Me, too, but I can accept the exaggeration of certain tendencies (for want of a better word!) otherwise then you're wandering into the realm of misrepresentation. But then isn’t a lot of fan fiction a bit of an exaggeration of the original characters? But then, again, again, again, I’m going to slightly contradict myself and admit to liking some stories where the original Bodie and Doyle characters have almost disappeared e.g. Arabian Nights. In the early days of reading slash I started and abandoned that story many times because I couldn’t stomach the author’s projection of Doyle, but later when I’d read the whole story it became a favourite. But maybe I’m not contradicting myself because in the end, as Cims points out below, I think I did eventually find the Bodie and Doyle that I know and love from the episodes. It’s hard to build a theory when the actual practice fails to support the theory on so many levels (now I really don’t know what I’m talking about….).

Actually that's probably not quite what you mean anyway, and not entirely what I mean. I mean Sebastian exaggerates Doyle's vindictiveness, and I can still go along with her stories. And Rhiannon makes the lads into completely other people - but they work for me, because I can see the essence of our lads there, in pretty much everything they do. And I don't think I can see Bodie's essence in this story, and I'm not convinced that his essence could emerge from what we're told of him so far...

I know what you’re saying but I think I do see fragments of Bodie in this story, even at this early stage e.g. loyalty to a friend; not finding verbal communication very easy but expressing himself physically; some kind of attachment/honour to the army; some kind of respect for Cowley.

To be continued....

RE: Part 2

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

No, I think it’s partly because the darker and more unreachable Bodie is depicted, then the more intriguing/fascinating is the eventual relationship between him and Doyle (and the fact that it's happened in the first place).
Interesting again... (you always write interesting things!)

I am??? I AM!!! Blimey and thank you.

So - would it work for you if the difficulty between their relationship was actually on Doyle's side, rather than Bodie's? That there was something dark and unreachable about Doyle that had to be surmounted?

That’s a really interesting question and I think I’d have to say no but I’m not sure why... I love Doyle as well so I must love him for reasons which are different to those I give for Bodie. He *is* violent but it’s more a case of losing his temper whereas canon Bodie is pretty much in control of his violence e.g. in the Monday morning footballers row with Cowley in Slush Fund, Bodie’s face actually darkens with anger but he just about manages to contain himself and yet it’s no less deadly and terrifies me which Doyle’s temper never does. I suppose I’d always hope that Doyle is open to reason whereas I’m not sure Bodie’s version of reason would correspond with mine!

And talking of Sebastian, there’s is a story by her which I can’t find and can’t remember the title of, where the lads have got someone in custody and they torture him purely for sadistic reasons. It’s horrible, pointless and I just don’t see them here and so I really wouldn’t want to read it again and I suppose that would be an example of misrepresentaion as opposed to exaggeration.

You shouldn't be hitting people so hard that it turns out to be a possibility!)
Well that’s the ideal but desperate situations call for desperate measures and really depends on what’s at stake. Even Cowley was preparing to electrocute someone in custody in one episode (with an incredulous Doyle restraining the suspect).

Cowley's cold-blooded (e.g. shooting Manton), but I don't think he lets his agents be like that except under strict orders (although now I'm thinking about that too - hmmn, does he?)

If Cowley shoots people in the back who aren’t even threatening his life then he can’t really expect different standards from the men beneath him. And it wasn’t just Manton he did that to but also the character played by Stephen Berkoff in A Man Called Quinn.

Blimey, I'm exhausted....

RE: Part 2

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Hee - exhausted!

but I think I do see fragments of Bodie in this story, even at this early stage e.g. loyalty to a friend; not finding verbal communication very easy but expressing himself physically; some kind of attachment/honour to the army; some kind of respect for Cowley
Yeah, I see some of those I guess, but for me they're disbalanced (it's a word now!) against his over-brutality... Although perhaps it's having more of an impact on me because I have to read and then pause and think about it and then wait for a week before I can read the next chapter! If I just read on as usual, I'd find out whether he redeems himself, and I'd feel better about it more quickly - but as it is, I have to wait! And think! *g* Whose idea was this..?!

He *is* violent but it’s more a case of losing his temper whereas canon Bodie is pretty much in control of his violence
That's just why I'd find Doyle more frightening, I think - a temper can't be controlled, whereas Bodie is in control (in the eps - I'm not convinced in this fic!)

Bodie’s face actually darkens with anger but he just about manages to contain himself and yet it’s no less deadly and terrifies me which Doyle’s temper never does. I suppose I’d always hope that Doyle is open to reason whereas I’m not sure Bodie’s version of reason would correspond with mine!
Hmmn, I guess we're just different here then, because Doyle's temper scares me much more. I'd rather face someone who can contain themselves than someone who can't any day - and I don't see Doyle's temper as something that can be reasoned with. When he's his usual self, then reason all the way, but when he's cross about something and about to throw someone from a high building..?! Give me Bodie's control, right then! *g*

And talking of Sebastian, there’s is a story by her which I can’t find and can’t remember the title of, where the lads have got someone in custody and they torture him purely for sadistic reasons. It’s horrible, pointless and I just don’t see them here
Oh, do you mean Helen Raven's (Wild Horse's) Technique (http://www.oblique-publications.net/archives/paeanvi/technique.pdf)? Because I agree with you...

All of this, and I guess I had the lads killing someone in relatively cold blood in If There be Werewolves and Vampires (or so I was told at the time), so... maybe we just have to come to our own justifications...

If Cowley shoots people in the back who aren’t even threatening his life then he can’t really expect different standards from the men beneath him.
In theory he can't, but I'm not sure that he doesn't... Although I suppose maybe the equivalent is the lads shooting someone they think is threatening their life at the time - when Cowley wants them brought in alive. So maybe, because he forgives them ultimately...

RE: Part 2

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Oh, do you mean Helen Raven's (Wild Horse's) Technique? Because I agree with you...

Oh, well done! For years I’ve been thinking it was Sebastian so no wonder I couldn’t find it.


but when he's cross about something and about to throw someone from a high building..?! Give me Bodie's control, right then! *g*

Thinking on this again....I think we're doing Doyle a disservice.... it’s not as if he walked up to someone and in a temper threw them off a building, surely he’s too disciplined for that and acted in self defence rather than from any loss of temper? Given that they were on a narrow balcony and in the middle of a fight for survival, it was the rational and sensible thing to do. And it was a similar situation on the scaffolding in A Hiding to Nothing. (It’s probably in the CI5 training manual: when in doubt throw your assailant over the nearest balcony).

That's just why I'd find Doyle more frightening, I think - a temper can't be controlled, whereas Bodie is in control (in the eps - I'm not convinced in this fic!)

But I’m familiar with tempers – children have them - they’re recognisable, out in the open and show you’re human. Bodie might be in control but we don’t know what’s underneath that control and the not knowing (its potential) is menacing and intimidating. Take that scene with Kathy towards the end of Hunter-Hunted – he barely touches her but his actual physicality is threatening. (It reminds me of a scene I once saw in a documentary about Saddam Hussein where he very quietly orders some henchman to ‘round up and separate’ a group of enemy combatants they’d captured. It sent a shiver down my spine.

Boom boom....

RE: Part 2

[jat-sapphire.livejournal.com]

I find that scene in Hunter, Hunted terrifying.

RE: Part 2

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

Me, too!
And Bodie goes quietly off the rails in Wild Justice. He looks perfectly reasonable on the surface, but is in fact not.
With Doyle, we'd know what's bothering him, and he accepts help.
Bodie hides it all.

Re: Part 2

[jat-sapphire.livejournal.com]

That's the closest I see to the Bodie in Ch 1. But then there are all the other episodes

RE: Re: Part 2

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

I agree.
Bodie is not easy to figure out.

RE: Part 2

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Wild Justice is probably the closest thing to convincing me that Bodie could do serious mayhem if he wanted to - but even then, when it came down to it, he didn't. He watched King Billy in the pub, and presumably had tracked him down, but the worst he did was take his anger out on his car door. Then he tracked him to the motorbike trials, but he took Doyle with him then. It was Doyle getting mad with him and leaving that meant Bodie was on his own, not Bodie's choice to go after King Billy alone - "with a little help from my friends", he assumed, until Doyle disabused him of that idea.

Then in the fight in the woods, it's what S2k said above about things being in the heat of the moment - Bodie's fighting for his life because he's outnumbered. Would he have broken King Billy's neck? I'm not convinced that he wouldn't have flipped him around somehow and just had him out cold if Cowley hadn't shown up just then.

And even before all that, he when to Shusai to work out what to do. Shusai gave him the metaphor of just destroying something with sudden violence, but Bodie didn't actually do that, either. Maybe he thought he could - but he didn't ever try to get King Billy on his own and just kill him in his sleep or something, which would have been much simpler (given SAS skills) than what he actually did do...

So I dunno - I'm still not seeing anything that makes me believe he's the kind of person who'd kill a surrendered man, or coldly beat people to death in holding cells...

RE: Part 2

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I'm never really convinced that Bodie's doing any more than play-acting in that scene - it's a bit melodramatic for me. Which isn't to say that if I'd been Kathy Mason I wouldn't have been in fear for my life, but more in an I've-been-caught-and-can-expect-no-mercy way rather than really thinking Bodie would murder her husband and then herself...

RE: Part 2

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it *is* a bit dramatic. I'm not sure Lewis Collins always hit the right note in his 'anger' scenes, or reached it too quickly! e.g. I always found the scene from Man Without a Past where he bursts into the accountant's house, running into every room looking for him a bit ridiculous.

RE: Part 2

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

I'm glad I'm not the only one!

RE: Part 2

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

surely he’s too disciplined for that and acted in self defence rather than from any loss of temper
I suppose you can argue that it's no less uncontrolled than shooting someone in a fight,and granted it's effective (!), but I didn't entirely like Tony's chances in Involvement until Bodie pulled Doyle off, and that wasn't a fight. And I'm sure there are other moments where I've been worried about what Doyle would do, though naturally I can't think of them right now!

But I’m familiar with tempers – children have them
Yeah, but so do adults - and they quite often end in death and the newspapers, or at least severe beatings. Do I think Doyle would go that far? Probably not, but it doesn't mean that level of uncontrolled violence (until someone's able to control themselves) doesn't frighten me! And i'm not sure that a victim of domestic violence, say, would appreciate the idea that it "shows you're human"!

that scene with Kathy towards the end of Hunter-Hunted – he barely touches her but his actual physicality is threatening
Yeah, but the thing is, I never believe that he'd actually do it, not in cold blood. I'm more chilled there by the idea that Cowley really would sit back and let him kill someone - I don't believe that Bodie would in that scenario, but I believe that Cowley might, if he thought it was the best solution to something... And look what happens when Bodie's out to get May-Li, who actually did shoot Doyle, several times. Bodie was all cold-revenge then ("For Christ's sake, who did it Ray?") but when it came to it, he didn't go through with it. He could have stared May-Li down while she died, or just left her dumped there as his revenge, but he didn't.

I suppose it all comes down to the different things that scare us about people! Not that Doyle scares me, but I'd be just as wary of him as I would be of Bodie, for slightly different reasons...

RE: Part 2

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

But I’m familiar with tempers – children have them

eah, but so do adults - and they quite often end in death and the newspapers, or at least severe beatings.

Do I think Doyle would go that far? Probably not, but it doesn't mean that level of uncontrolled violence (until someone's able to control themselves) doesn't frighten me! And i'm not sure that a victim of domestic violence, say, would appreciate the idea that it "shows you're human"!

But do you not think that losing your temper is a fairly natural/human characteristic? And domestic abuse is such a minefield, so much of it is a sustained, premeditated form of control as opposed to a a sudden loss of temper and where there is violence from temper it's often fuelled by drugs or alcohol, so it's almost a different class of behaviour from that shown by Doyle.

that scene with Kathy towards the end of Hunter-Hunted – he barely touches her but his actual physicality is threatening
Yeah, but the thing is, I never believe that he'd actually do it, not in cold blood.

That's the thing, I didn't know for certain!

I'm more chilled there by the idea that Cowley really would sit back and let him kill someone

I agree and looking so avuncular!

. And look what happens when Bodie's out to get May-Li, who actually did shoot Doyle, several times. Bodie was all cold-revenge then ("For Christ's sake, who did it Ray?") but when it came to it, he didn't go through with it. He could have stared May-Li down while she died, or just left her dumped there as his revenge, but he didn't.

I agree (again!) and that's why I find him so fascinating and more complicated than he first appears to be.

I suppose it all comes down to the different things that scare us about people! Not that Doyle scares me, but I'd be just as wary of him as I would be of Bodie, for slightly different reasons...

It *is* subjective.

[cim3745.livejournal.com]

I agree with all of you and everything is said about this cruel and unfamiliar Bodie.
But, like Shooting2kill said, it is fan fiction which means playing with the characters.
I don't like this Bodie, but I am thrilled by the sentence:

The point is this -- can you persuade one of those men out there that he likes you well enough, respects and trust  you enough, to want to work with you ?

Maybe Angelfish made it a bit stronger by intensification his behaviours.

At the end of chapter one, I have to admitt, I was a bit shocked, pushed off the story, but I hope, because of Cowley's statement, it will become an interesting and brilliant reading.

The scene with the first touch between these two is already brilliant.  

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

it is fan fiction which means playing with the characters
Yes, that's true to an extent - but when does it stop being fanfiction (based on characters we love) and turn into original fiction about people who look like our characters and have the same names, but aren't really them? That's where I struggle with stories - I have to be able to see the essence of our lads in a story, and believe that they're the same people I see in the eps. And I'm not sure I can see my Bodie in this story! He's just too brutal - and we see him rejecting that kind of brutality in the eps. In Heroes he points out to Doyle that he might kill people when he had to, but that he didn't enjoy it - but in this story he thinks "...even the knowledge of having killed him cannot quench his thirst to do it again." (beating the suspect so badly that he does die, that is).

The point is this -- can you persuade one of those men out there that he likes you well enough, respects and trust you enough, to want to work with you ?
Yes! I like that too! That's Bodie's challenge for the story, I guess - I just wish Angelfish hadn't made him so unlikeably brutal in order to bring him back from it, because that's not the Bodie that I see.

The scene with the first touch between these two is already brilliant.
Yes! I liked that too! A glimpse of what will be between them - and Doyle refusing to be intimidated by him, and proving that they're equals straight away! *g*

[cim3745.livejournal.com]

You are totally right, but Chapter One isn't the end of the story, it's the beginning, and I am absolutly glad about it . Would it be the end, the story were awful.

Playing with the characters means add or change something more or less slightly, but our lads are recognisable, have to be. I can cope with the change of Bodie's past if we get our Bodie some time in this story *g*

And I'm not sure I can see my Bodie in this story! He's just too brutal - and we see him rejecting that kind of brutality in the eps.
In my mind this part is set before, and something will happend, and we know the possibilities, don't we ?
Don't you think it is possible people can change ? Or: Do you think it isn't possible so the story is going to be unreliable ?

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Playing with the characters means add or change something more or less slightly, but our lads are recognisable, have to be. I can cope with the change of Bodie's past if we get our Bodie some time in this story *g*

Well said! That's something I feel as well.

[cim3745.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I hope desperatly it is going to work.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

It definitely helps that it's the beginning, and maybe its partly odd for me that I'm reading so slowly this time. If I was just carrying on as normal then I wouldn't be thinking about it so much, and hopefully recognisable-ep-Bodie would appear and I'd forget about this other bloke! *g*

People can change, definitely - but I think it takes alot deep down to go from brutal killer who shoots someone who's surrendering, to someone who'd tell Doyle he does it but doesn't enjoy it... I guess I'll have to wait and see where Angelfish takes us!

[merentha13.livejournal.com]

Interesting thoughts - especially on the characterization aspect of things. I'm pretty much in agreement with shooting2kill and cim3745 in that we do "play" with the characters when we write. And byslantedlight is right also, in that the reader has too see some of their own vision of the character in order to enjoy/believe the story.

Bodie here at the beginning isn't the episode Bodie. But as was pointed out, this appears to be earlier than the episodes. And I can see hints in the episodes where Bodie won't talk about his past, that possibly he could have done some of those things. And people can change - (Ray to the rescue!).

One other thing - can anyone tell me when Doyle got a promotion from DC to DS? I must have missed that ;-)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

we do "play" with the characters when we write
I dunno - I guess I always want readers to see ep-lads when I write something (even something AU), so maybe it's just that i have less tolerance for how far stories can "play" with the characters.

People can change, but it seems a long way to go from being able to shoot someone who's surrendered to telling Doyle that he doesn't enjoy killing...

And hee - well-spotted on the DS not DC! Cos he admits to being a DC in ODNT, doesn't he. So unless he was promoted but never told because he was recruited to CI5 at the same time... That's reaching, though!