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ci5hqTitle: 19 Cleveland Street
Author: Jaicen5
Pairing: Bodie/Doyle
Link: http://archiveofourown.org/works/1023070
Other Notes: Part of the C15 Box of Tricks 2013
I had second thoughts about choosing this story. I’ve never cared for there being two “Bodie”s or two “Doyle”s in the same story, but the fact that it was written by someone who, up to that point, wrote gen, I found myself intrigued enough that I decided to go for it.
The story is a crossover with the made-for-TV movie Jack the Ripper. which co-starred Lewis Collins as Sergeant George Godley, a real person who was involved with the hunt for Jack the Ripper. Both Godley and Bodie appear in this story, with Godley cast as Bodie’s uncle. Bodie has come to him for help to find a man from his regiment who has gone missing while in London.
The story is well written, the plot fully formed, with several original characters who round things out. There is the hunt for the missing man, which takes up the bulk of the story, the introduction of Doyle, and his part in finding the now several missing men, and, it turns out, boys. There’s also a couple of relationships for Bodie, though what their place is in his life is not immediately made clear, adding to the intrigue. I also liked that Godley had a big role in the proceedings.
Unfortunately, there were a fe things I didn’t care for. I didn’t see a Bodie, or a Doyle, who I recognized. Bodie is too unsure of himself, constantly wondering if Doyle feels anything for him, and seemingly unaware of his own good looks–even while acknowledging that women tend to throw themselves at him. Doyle is basically a shadow. He’s there, but so little is known of him that it’s hard to overlay our Doyle onto him. Especially since he’s usually referred to as a “lad” or “boy.” I wanted, at some point, for there to be an acknowledgement that he’s not a boy. When it comes, it’s almost as an aside near the end of the story.
Of course, they end up together, but their love making is always a “fade to black.” Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mind that; a sex scene isn’t always necessary. But I wasn’t getting enough for me to feel that they were truly emotionally involved, and the lack of sex just made it that much harder.
I do wonder if there’s a sequel to this out there. Bodie and Doyle are together, or will be, at the end of the story. But so much was made of how difficult a life together would be, well nigh impossible, actually, that I can’t help but wonder what comes next.
Because it is well written, as much effort as I'm sure she put into it, I really wish I could have liked this story more than I did. It's a solid story, just not right for me.
Oh, and there's some lovely art by Lorraine Brevig to go along with the story.
Author: Jaicen5
Pairing: Bodie/Doyle
Link: http://archiveofourown.org/works/1023070
Other Notes: Part of the C15 Box of Tricks 2013
I had second thoughts about choosing this story. I’ve never cared for there being two “Bodie”s or two “Doyle”s in the same story, but the fact that it was written by someone who, up to that point, wrote gen, I found myself intrigued enough that I decided to go for it.
The story is a crossover with the made-for-TV movie Jack the Ripper. which co-starred Lewis Collins as Sergeant George Godley, a real person who was involved with the hunt for Jack the Ripper. Both Godley and Bodie appear in this story, with Godley cast as Bodie’s uncle. Bodie has come to him for help to find a man from his regiment who has gone missing while in London.
The story is well written, the plot fully formed, with several original characters who round things out. There is the hunt for the missing man, which takes up the bulk of the story, the introduction of Doyle, and his part in finding the now several missing men, and, it turns out, boys. There’s also a couple of relationships for Bodie, though what their place is in his life is not immediately made clear, adding to the intrigue. I also liked that Godley had a big role in the proceedings.
Unfortunately, there were a fe things I didn’t care for. I didn’t see a Bodie, or a Doyle, who I recognized. Bodie is too unsure of himself, constantly wondering if Doyle feels anything for him, and seemingly unaware of his own good looks–even while acknowledging that women tend to throw themselves at him. Doyle is basically a shadow. He’s there, but so little is known of him that it’s hard to overlay our Doyle onto him. Especially since he’s usually referred to as a “lad” or “boy.” I wanted, at some point, for there to be an acknowledgement that he’s not a boy. When it comes, it’s almost as an aside near the end of the story.
Of course, they end up together, but their love making is always a “fade to black.” Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mind that; a sex scene isn’t always necessary. But I wasn’t getting enough for me to feel that they were truly emotionally involved, and the lack of sex just made it that much harder.
I do wonder if there’s a sequel to this out there. Bodie and Doyle are together, or will be, at the end of the story. But so much was made of how difficult a life together would be, well nigh impossible, actually, that I can’t help but wonder what comes next.
Because it is well written, as much effort as I'm sure she put into it, I really wish I could have liked this story more than I did. It's a solid story, just not right for me.
Oh, and there's some lovely art by Lorraine Brevig to go along with the story.
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no subject
Date: 2015-09-03 05:36 am (UTC)For a start I'll admit that I'm not particularly fond of a Doyle who appears or actually is years younger than Bodie. It seems that the author saddled herself with the difficult proposition that Doyle looks much younger than he is so that the "rent boy" sub-plot, which connects to the original Cleveland Street case involving Inspector Abberline, would seem more plausible until such time as it was resolved. And then she decided she needed to reinforce this point with the readers by using 'boy' and 'lad' most of the way through.
The art that goes with the story is delish, and doesn't particularly require that interpretation. In life it's perfectly okay to have a man looking for sex with men without it being a hooker situation, but if the story demands a tie-in with male brothels engaging telegraph boys for wealthy clients, then I think it's best just to apply the metaphorical third generation video filter, mention the point only as much as absolutely necessary and get on with the rest of the tale.
no subject
Date: 2015-09-03 10:01 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-09-03 09:53 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-09-03 10:07 am (UTC)And, yes, the artwork is wonderful. I can easily see why you'd set it up so that you see it over and over again. :-)
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2015-09-03 12:24 pm (UTC)I'm confessing up front - I didn't even begin to read it! Sorry - RL is biting my bottom every hour, on the hour, the rotter!
But! Thank you for choosing this one. I'm a great fan of Jaicen's writing - she's one of the few non-slash writers I read - and I loved this story to bits when I first read it. I can recall being a bit irritated at Doyle appearing so much younger than Bodie for the majority of the story (does this shift? I'm not sure now), but thinking the research and the writing were immaculate. So - thank you for suggesting it for the Reading Room, because I will read it again as soon as I can, and it's always brilliant to see what other people feel about a story.
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Date: 2015-09-03 01:54 pm (UTC)The story is really well researched, and very well written. I'm only sorry I didn't enjoy it as much as so many other readers did!
no subject
Date: 2015-09-03 12:44 pm (UTC)Put simply, I love the story. Having a preference for gen, I found the slash subtle and consistent with the nature of the story. It’s a good old fashioned love story with a great plot and to my mind the fade to black works better than a graphic description of a sexual encounter. Personally, I love a good strong plot and if a hot sexual encounter value adds then it’s appropriate but if it doesn’t then it becomes gratuitous and the story just becomes a vehicle for the sex scene which is perfectly fine if that’s what you are looking for.
I admit to being a bit of a history heathen and don’t profess to know if all the historical details are accurate but it painted a hell of a vivid picture in my mind particularly with Jacien’s turn of phrase and use of words from the era. To my way of thinking the term ‘boy’ and ‘lad’ had connotations other than age back in those days and it didn’t make me view Doyle as significantly younger than Bodie. I do know a lot of research went into the historic detail. Jaicen has considered the detail in every passage and adds descriptors about the small details to make the scene come alive. This is what I love about her writing style, its descriptive without being flowery and is easy to read.
…It was a fair walk and Bodie was hopelessly lost by the time Doyle led him into a closed in, barely lit, narrow yard, his apprehension not helped at all by the ominous rustlings coming from the rotting refuse piled high in the clogged gutters.
I get an immediate sense of the nature and even the smell of the place.
Not being a huge AU fan didn’t stop me from enjoying this long read and hats off for the effort of writing such a long story, it was a huge undertaking.
I am surprised by the comment I didn’t see a Bodie or a Doyle I recognized but as I mentioned in last weeks review I think we all have a different opinion on what makes the characters ring true. I thought Doyle especially was very true to character, as much as he could be in the setting we find him in. His tough coolness tempered with his feisty moments really rang true for me especially when he was so badly injured and determined to get away at all costs. I must add at this point the HC was wonderful. I’d expect Bodie to be unsure of himself when it comes to considering something wholly illegal and at that time socially unacceptable. I didn’t needed to know their future, the story has to stop somewhere and I prefer to fill in the gaps myself.
no subject
Date: 2015-09-03 02:05 pm (UTC)I am surprised by the comment "I didn’t see a Bodie or a Doyle I recognized," but as I mentioned in last weeks review I think we all have a different opinion on what makes the characters ring true.
Well, exactly. :-) While you thought Doyle very true to character, his tough coolness and feisty moments didn't ring true for me. I'm not sure how to explain it. That he was described that way because it's expected, but said more than shown? I don't know. And it wasn't so much Bodie being unsure in considering the relationship that I didn't care for. It was his constantly being unsure if Doyle wanted him, was attracted to him.
And, yes, the story does have to stop somewhere. I just wish it had stopped a little further along.
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2015-09-03 12:48 pm (UTC)Jaicens stories work for me, she writes wonderful, and I even read her stories though most of them are gen because of that.
I loved this one a lot, but using boy and lad so much to refer to Doyle disturbed me quite a lot. Apart from that?
Great plot, great story!!
Thanks for reccing it!
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Date: 2015-09-03 02:07 pm (UTC)But I'm glad you enjoyed it. Her work is so well done, it deserves to be read. :-)
no subject
Date: 2015-09-03 03:01 pm (UTC)I had various niggles throughout, when things seemed to contradict themselves. Maureen, for instance is described both as having a small rounded belly and a "swelling pregnancy", and then as "not showing much yet". Next thing we see - presumably only a day or so after the final confrontation, "Maureen was showing, she had to get married, and Jem Doyle was still missing." And although we hear of Bodie's appreciation of Doyle when he first sees him, and there are hints that Bodie is gay even before that, he then asks himself "Could one even force a man to have sex for that matter?", which doesn't make sense to me as the thought of a fully-grown man who identifies as gay.
The characterisation threw me. Like you, I didn't see Bodie at all, and although Doyle was closer, the impression was spoiled for me by the insistence that either he was young, or that he looked so young - that's not our Doyle, he certainly looks as old as Bodie - and that Bodie thought of him as an innocent! I felt the age issue (not just with Doyle) was rather hammered home too - that the lads selling sex were all 18 even though they looked younger, especially because 18 was only briefly the age of consent (for gay sex) in the 1990s-ish, so that threw me too... especially when Bodie then went on to have sex with Doyle and talk about him as the boy, which to me implies a much younger age than 18, so that I ended up feeling uncomfortable about their relationship... All the talk about young men who looked younger than they really were threw me too - kids were more likely to look older than their age (by our standards) in the 1800s...
Doyle is described as a street urchin, so how did he know how to eat in a fancy restaurant, right down to ordering from a menu? Why was Jack Crane made out to be an uncaring villain? Although we don't see much of him in Pros, he didn't seem at all villainous to me in Wild Justice. Why did the villainous henchmen have to be East European? Bulgarian? Was it supposed to be an extra connection to Queen Victoria? Its all little things I'm describing, but they meant that I was constantly thrown as I read the story. Oh, and switchingHow are you going to play it - Drunk I think from Doyle's line to Bodie's made me blink too... And then it turned out that Jem had just been sick for 10 weeks, unable to get a message home for all that time, and everyone could live sort-of-happily-ever-after... if the outcome of B/D's romance hadn't rested on it, I would have quite liked that little scene, but it came over as a bit pat.
The other thing was that I didn't quite believe the slash. I might have been coloured by knowing that the author doesn't usually write slash, but... again, I think it was lots of little things accumulating. Bodie is the only gay character who seems to be portrayed in a positive light - even Doyle isn't really, as far as being gay. Dickie Knee is bi, but is a drunkard and "effeminate looking", and not able to tell when a young boy was actually being raped. And everyone else is either being forced, or is evil for having used a brothel where its assumed they're forcing young lads... I don't suppose the author meant to imply that, but... again, it was just enough to make me feel uncomfortable as I read.
So... because I am a picky bugger when it comes to stories, whereas other people just get on and enjoy what's there (*g*), much as I fancied a Victorian B/D AU, this one wasn't quite for me either...
no subject
Date: 2015-09-04 11:10 am (UTC)Like you, there were other things that I had a problem with, but Doyle's age was probably the biggest. Bodie having sex with someone he believes to be under the age of consent was sort of disturbing. And when did he learn that he was actually much older? It didn't seem to me that Lorraine's illos made Doyle out to look especially young, so I didn't see the need for him to be presented that way. And, as you say, most people of the time would have looked older than they were, especially the poor.
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2015-09-03 04:53 pm (UTC)I like the idea of having Godley as Bodie's uncle, and liked the use of the Ripper as background, tying it all to some real events and beliefs of Queen Vic's era. I liked the idea of Doyle's role too, but felt it didn't always work so well in practice - he doesn't seem to me to stick realistically to any one social class (and we are set in an era when social class was even more of a marker than it is today): he seems almost to be playing working-class as an undercover role (he has good manners, he knows French, but he is also suffering real hunger ... and he's familiar with both the well-off mistress of some minor aristocrat and some very low low-lifes ...). All we know about his background is that his grandfather was a Bow Street runner and his brother is a craftsman; I suppose the family could have been a bit better off once and fallen on harder times since, but it's a tricky balancing act and tended to throw me out. Incidentally, I would have quite liked to see Doyle heading towards becoming a police officer at the end, as was hinted at earlier on :-)
I didn't like Doyle being too young and apparently too slight of build: I could buy it as being put on as part of an undercover role - not as his reality. I liked his being a competent fighter, of course.
I got a little weary of the ins and outs of army ranks and regiments ... but I remember that the first time I read it I was quite anxious to find out who if anyone was secretly on our heroes' side *g*
And I have niggles with the language, dotted here and there throughout (I seem to remember a rather odd instance of "privy to" being used to mean "exclusive to" rather than "aware/knowledgeable of", for example). There were quite a few instances of language or behaviour that made me twitch. And I'm not quite sure how Lucy can have the family and background she does, and still not have a fire lit in the room where they practice dancing (I know it's useful for the plot at that moment; it just seems odd - a tiny tiny detail. One would not think twice about ordering a servant to do such a thing even for half an hour's use - unless she's so poor she needs to economise on coal).
I don't mind fade-to-black (I wouldn't want it in all my stories, but it's fine where it works) though I could have done with a final reunion (and possibly one slightly more detailed sex scene. Yes I know, I'm being a bit trad wanting a sex scene towards the end - but there's an awful lot of tension to resolve! *bg*).
I would have liked to see a bit of how they work things out in practice. Maybe an epilogue, or even a short sequel (or a long one!).
I'd like Bodie more sure of himself, yes. And Doyle more of a man (as opposed to boy or lad) more of the time! Strength and equality is part of why they love one another, for me (too)! *bg*
no subject
Date: 2015-09-03 10:00 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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From:no subject
Date: 2015-09-03 07:14 pm (UTC)I love this writer’s non-slash work (her Beginnings story was one of *the* best first met stories I’ve ever read), so when she herself has said that she doesn’t feel that comfortable writing slash, I take my hat off to her for managing to write an impressive B/D story and the kind I now much prefer with the sex between them implied rather than made too explicit or overstated.
Especially since he’s usually referred to as a “lad” or “boy.” I wanted, at some point, for there to be an acknowledgement that he’s not a boy
A few people seem to have picked up on this.... I don’t remember it as jarring as it kind of tied in with the general vulnerable, waif like, undernourished image of Doyle, at least at the beginning of the story (I can’t remember if Bodie feeds him up!). (And let’s not forget there’s a pub scene in one Pros episode when Bodie actually refers to Doyle as ‘the boy’.) I'm sure it's been mentioned that the author herself addressed this point in the feedback at the end of the story at A03 and reminds us that to an extent her hands were tied as she had to write the story to existing images rather than the other way round.
I quickly realised that having both men older would not have worked for the scenario the painting depicted
So she had a fair number of logistical problems to deal with along with all the challenges of research, checking facts and then the ultimate challenge of being able to soak up everything she's juggling with, absorb them and then use them to step into a totally different age. As far as I can tell, not living then, she succeeded very well.
An age difference often implies an inequality in power, something that's almost anathema in the Pros fandom. We want them to be partners. Equals. By constantly mentioning Doyle's status as a boy, the writer made that hard to see
That’s an interesting point but I felt they were unequal - at least to begin with - for all kinds of other reasons: money; the power inherent in Bodie’s work; the lack of power inherent in Doyle’s work; social status etc. etc.
Thank you for such an interesting choice of story and review, Gilda, I've enjoyed it!
no subject
Date: 2015-09-04 11:24 am (UTC)The thing I don't understand, and perhaps I'll have to go back and read the comments and responses on AO3, is why Doyle is constantly depicted as looking so young. Lorraine's illos certainly don't make him out to be. He could have easily have been seen as just under 18, rather than seemingly so much younger–at least, that's how I read it. And while Bodie made have called Doyle "the boy" in an episode, I really doubt he meant to imply that Doyle was very young. I always saw it as more a figure of speech.
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Date: 2015-09-04 09:24 am (UTC)I'll start with what I liked. I liked the sense of atmosphere and the solid plot. There were some well-developed characters. The historical background seemed fine to me, although some of the social detail grated a bit.
The difficulties I encountered were mostly what others have already talked about: Doyle as a 'lad'; Doyle having social graces above his station in life; Bodie's unfamiliarity with the gay sex scene if he had identified as gay (or at least bi) for years; Bodie's uncertainty about Doyle's commitment. I won't go into detail but that covers my major points.
I think the real difficulty I had was the lad/boy thing. Okay, the art had already been created. It's lovely but personally I wouldn't have seen the need to stick quite so closely to a major age difference when firstly it doesn't reflect what we see in canon and secondly seems to be resolved in a blink of the eye - 'oh, don't worry, he just looks really young for his age.' I'm not sure I can suspend disbelief that much, unfortunately. If someone has been living in poverty and hardship they are more likely to look older than their age. The power imbalance could have been interesting *g* but again wasn't dealt with satisfactorily, being resolved almost invisibly.
I found Godley's reaction to Bodie's sexuality hard to believe as well. I'm certainly no expert in the period but this was nice and comfortable and convenient. I get the impression that instead, Godley's reaction might have been either have been to ignore and deny, or to confront and shame.
There were occasional - I don't know if they were Brit-picks or typos, or just clunky grammatical sentences *eyes that sentence sideways* - but they threw me out of the story occasionally. Sometimes it was a hop from one POV to another, sometimes it was almost a missing sentence, but it made me stop and think. For example:
“What does he look like?” Bodie asked curiously.
Mrs Whitcombe did one better. She produced a photograph.
I can see that Mrs. Whitcombe was probably going to describe the boy, but instead produced a photograph. As I said, though, I had to stop for a teeny moment to provide that link for myself.
So for me, this was something I read with a frown, on the whole :) Just a few too many niggles and typos to let me immerse myself in the story, which is a shame because I love long, involved, plotty stories.
Thanks for the rec, and thanks to everyone who is commenting. I'm enjoying the discussion.
no subject
Date: 2015-09-04 11:32 am (UTC)But it did seem as if she came into it with one hand tied behind her back, so I have to admire what she did manage to make of it.
part 1/3
Date: 2015-09-04 06:05 pm (UTC)First off, I loved the writing - lush, atmospheric, heavy - and I loved the change in genre - it’s good to have a change sometimes. I thought that Jaicen did a great job using the constraint and weight of the times. And, as we tend to have our own shorthand, our own language (so to speak) when it has to do with Bodie and Doyle, I thought the “canon” insertions and playing with details was really wonderful. I am happy to suspend disbelief…. I am also *not* an expert on the time period, and didn’t get thrown by anything in that way! I certainly don’t expect perfection, either - I think in AUs I am very willing and happy to move off into unexpected places - and I’m not exactly sure what it is that makes an AU a B/D success in my heart, and what has it falter. In this case, I enjoyed the story very much and was antsy until I could get back to it. At first I was concerned because it was so long - would I have enough time to finish it? and then I was concerned because it wasn't long enough!
I see many comments about the age difference, and all of the boys and lads, but *everyone* seems to be young and beautiful! not just Doyle!- *New*love, Lucy's doctor (“he looked all of 16”), all of the talented youth… Directly quoting: “Puer aeternus?” Bodie asked incredulously. “Eternal Youth?” “Well it seems to fit.” I did wonder if it’s because of Bodie and Godley’s own preoccupation with age and growing older? or fears about growing older and weaker, as Lucy is with her illness. But the youth aren’t necessarily portrayed as being strong, either. I know in my head that the description of Doyle as lad or boy is a vernacular issue, at least I believe it is so, rather than as a statement about him personally…
The biggest disappointment/concern for me personally was with Doyle - I honestly was expecting him to be part of some secret police organization - or at least some sort of private detective - or *something*! (okay I know - in a way, it makes this story a bit more individual because the author didn't give in to that plot device...) The mystery about it in the beginning was perfect for me, but the ending, without real resolution (for me) disappointed me. His role, his place, his manners, his speech, Jem, Amelie, the French, his street pose - all of this back and forth, wondering, who is he? really! and then in the end after unwrapping it all, there wasn’t the big sparkly present I wanted to find… Which is NOT the author’s fault. It’s my expectations! I suppose it does go back to the convention that they are equals - they match - where one lacks, the other makes up for, and vice versa. They are both powerful and dangerous in unique ways. I kept waiting for Doyle’s side of the equation to beef up… and it did have some good jumps here and there, but in the end I felt like it wasn’t good enough, somehow.
I will try not to go on forever, but here are a few things to attempt to explain about why Doyle was a problem for me in some of these places:
His lack of confidence - he says, "me? I’m not young and beautiful. Me? I don’t have a talent” - what? but then has complete confidence at other times.
The unexplained discrepancies - knows wealthy people, knows french, knows a prominent Duke’s mistress? comes from Bow Street Runner stock? how? why?
Lines like these: (which seem to bring up both sides, and especially the lurking question of “who is he, really?!” which in the end isn’t answered the way I want it to be!) [Lines which appear in the next post....]
RE: part 1/3
Date: 2015-09-04 08:03 pm (UTC)That's exactly how I felt!
I know in my head that the description of Doyle as lad or boy is a vernacular issue, at least I believe it is so, rather than as a statement about him personally…
Oh, that's a good point, especially the bit about the 'personal'. And I think the writer herself hints at 'boy' being used in the vernacular rather than literal sense in her reply to comments at the end of the story.
RE: part 1/3
From:part 2/3
Date: 2015-09-04 06:12 pm (UTC)What *was* Doyle’s life up till then? It’s like playing both sides against the middle - Doyle’s low class, but he has responsibility and honor! Doyle has manners but he’s obviously too poor. Doyle isn’t a whore, but he knows the trans mistress of a Duke. Doyle isn’t formally trained but he can outplay, outmaneuver Bodie in situations (as in the capture by Stubbs - and the turnabout comment - “he [Bodie] looked at his boy with new respect”… These are more surface things, or class issues, but the deeper issue for me is how the end scenario plays out… After all they have been through together, and all that he has done, he still sees no other option but that he must marry Maureen to make her an honest woman? To do right by Jem? What? Yes, they have responsibility and honor, to both Maureen and to Lucy, but still - wait a minute - this doesn’t seem right! Doyle says, “I can’t let Jem’s son grow up a bastard!” Doyle didn’t seem to bat an eye at Bodie having three bastards, but oh no, not this one? They have worked beyond this level of surface appearances, I thought! I remind myself - this is a story written for fun and love, not for nitpicking! But this problem with Doyle really hurt my enjoyment of the story. :(
About Lucy - I was ready to hate her - competition? but no - I loved her character. She charmed me just as she charmed Doyle. Anyone who loves Bodie that way, well… I will be disarmed. I didn’t even mind the plot device with the sons… I did like the way it was resolved. [to be continued]
Re: part 2/3
Date: 2015-09-04 10:03 pm (UTC)RE: Re: part 2/3
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From:part 3/3 - too long, no indents
Date: 2015-09-04 06:17 pm (UTC)Plot devices - there were a lot, as I believe is normal for this genre! Some worked beautifully for me, and others didn’t…Bodie being devastated that Doyle is just doing hand jobs? Doyle being jealous of Lucy dancing with Bodie? okay. But the plot device with Maureen and Jem? not so much. Even though many of them were really expected, like the plot device with the sketches…I couldn’t help but love them them:
More drawings, these solely of Bodie, his head bowed studiously over a figurine, face tilted in laughter, eyes narrowed in concentration. Doyle had caught him in many moods, and all stunning. Bodie swallowed, saw what Lucy had, that beyond the artistic talent was the subject itself. Doyle had drawn him, many times, over and over in loving detail. But what about Maureen, a little voice whispered in his head.
I love that Bodie is changing and growing through the story - I love that his uncle is working through his prejudice. I think that these parts of the story are very serious and I think Jaicen’s writing shows how important they are to her. That Bodie has accepted who he is, that he isn’t condemning or judging homosexuality,“You are wrong, Uncle.” His gaze was steady and the dark blue eyes held both resolution and certainty. “There was no choice, none at all.” That he loves and cares about his Uncle and his Uncle’s opinion of him:
How could such an inept account really convey how it was, how it felt, how he felt. Right somehow, pure and true, as though he’d reached deep inside himself and found the real him and brought him to life and, although he would be damned to purgatory for it, he could never, ever regret it. He did, however, regret that his uncle would never see, would never understand and it was pointless to try. Yet it was who he was and he was still William Bodie and he’d learned long ago that what constitutes a man had very little to do with who he took to bed. He could only hope that his uncle’s deep sense of fairness would eventually allow him see it too.
And that his Uncle slowly realizes the truth, and comes to an understanding: "That William was no less a man for his inclinations and that Godley loved him no less for them.” I know there were better quotes for this, but I am going on far too long as it is!
The part where Bodie and Doyle eventually stop mis-communicating and reach out to each other is my favorite part of the story, I think. I am completely fine without details of sex - especially when there are other beautiful details to soak up...
The fire had banked down, its golden embers painting the man sleeping against him with warm fingers. He hadn’t slept himself, unable to close his eyes and risk missing a single second of this night, this rare opportunity. He couldn’t stop looking, couldn’t get enough, didn’t want to stop - he was beautiful.
And then Bodie's fears, and Doyle's smile. That is all I need! So happy! If only this scene had been at the end, or something? The ending - if my concerns for Doyle’s character had been worked out, it would have been fine with Jem’s unexpected return. That instability, that who-knows-what-on-earth-might-happen-next? kind of life was wonderfully portrayed as being the normal way of things.
Finally, I am nothing if not a complete marshmallow for meaningful forehead presses, and this one was a good one:
Exhaling softly, Bodie slowly, carefully, reached out to cup the boy’s face, sliding his hands around the solid skull, threading his fingers into those soft curls and simply pressed his forehead against Doyle’s. Real, solid, there.
Re: part 3/3 - too long, no indents
Date: 2015-09-04 10:12 pm (UTC)Anyone interested should read Street Lavender and N for Narcissus by Chris Hunt - fabulous historical novels that are meticulously researched (as are all her books).
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Date: 2015-09-04 10:55 pm (UTC)I wonder how any others in the reading room would feel had their own work been pulled apart quite so comprehensively, that's of course if they write. It actually went against my better judgement to make a negative comment about the previous week's story, my first instinct was to say nothing but I folded and am now regretting that.
I would hate anything that I have written to be reccied, what an absolutely terrifying thought. I have some earlier stories on my LJ site that I would re write given the time to do so but I don't have that time and they are what they are, early attempts, but I wonder, by leaving them there I am leaving myself open to ridicule. What to do? Take them all down just on the off chance someone reccie any of them? What a bloody pickle! People in the fandom write for enjoyment but I'm sure for Jaicen it has ceased to be that and that is the sad part because I know her stories have given a lot of people a lot of pleasure.
It is for these reasons and my loyalty to my friend that I can no longer participate and won't be hosting next Thursday's reading room. Apologies if this causes any inconvenience. I wish you luck with room, I think it has the potential to be a great place but I'd urge you to seriously think about how comments might affect the author who, up until this time, had a passion for writing. Perhaps this sort of angst could be avoided in the future by either seeking the consent of an author who is currently active in the fandom before recci'ing their story (I know there is no legal obligation but perhaps there is a moral one) or limit the stories to those from authors no longer involved in the fandom.
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From:Jaicen please join us here!
Date: 2015-09-05 01:52 am (UTC)I understand the feeling of CI5mates to protect her friend. *bows*
But I think this discussion was nicely done and nobody wanted to hurt Jaicen!
I totally agree with BSL above.
"...just to show that it's the principle of free discussion that I'm concerned about here...
Yes! It would be a pity to change the RR!
I'm a (quite bad) writer myself, and I always prefer some honest - but polite - comment to being ignored or getting just a 'how nice'... ;-)
I really hope, you come to join us here, Jaicen!
Edit: I love your stories! And a lot of people do!
RE: Jaicen please join us here!
Date: 2015-09-05 11:13 am (UTC)You are right, lots of people do love Jaicen's stories and I hope she continues to write. :)
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Date: 2015-09-05 04:54 pm (UTC)I've been thinking about the suggestions that we only discuss fic when an author agrees; that we are only 'nice'; and that the comments in AO3 and the Reading Room serve different purposes. The first suggestion might work if we could find the author but there might be logistical issues with this. The second suggestion, unfortunately, wouldn't work for me, in that there wouldn't be much point. I honestly believe that all the discussion, criticism, call it what you will here is not negative. If all we want to do is to say how much we liked the story, there is no point in having a discussion. Quite often, that's what I see in the comments on AO3. This is why I think they do indeed serve two separate purposes, and this, I think, is a better medium for discussion because it's a group discussion rather than a 1-1 discussion between author and reader.
The point about negativity is difficult. I'm currently writing a Pros Big Bang fic. I'm fairly sure that many people will 'dislike' it. I trust they won't be able to complain about the Britishness and I sincerely hope I get all my grammar and spelling correct. I may have a different interpretation of the lads' characters. We can agree to differ on that point. I know, however, that there is something in there (in fact, two somethings!) that many people will dislike, some of them intensely. One is to do with the actions B&D take and the other is... well, you'll have to wait and see.
If it were to be recced here, I accept that there would be many comments saying that the reader could not see B&D doing X, that it would be completely out of character etc. That's fine. It might be a bit irritating, and perhaps a bit hurtful, if I'm honest, but I trust the people on here to frame their comments in a respectful and honest manner. Or I might choose not to read the review at all.
Like others, I'm sorry that anyone has been upset. At the same time, I I like the format of the Reading Room and I believe it offers a safe and constructive environment for discussion.
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Date: 2015-09-06 01:04 pm (UTC)author response part 1
Date: 2015-09-06 06:10 am (UTC)Yes I did take down the story. No I won’t be putting it back up. Yes the nature of this review did upset me.
This story was a work of considerable time and effort and a lot of research, more research than actual writing, (and frustrating research in finding the right time period) including contacting an expert on male homosexuality and prostitution in that time era, to get it right. It was done to a deadline for the Big Bang. It was done to ensure a beautiful painting by Lorraine Brevig saw the light of day.
It was a logistical nightmare, but in the end I delivered a story that had a plot, that highlighted the problems a 19th century man (NOT a modern 2015 man) may have faced when wanting to find love, while strangled with the moral, legal and social standing of the time and a background in historical fact.
When I received the automated warning that my story had been chosen for a rec, I was apprehensive. None of my stories have ever been chosen for discussion, not surprising as they are episode based, but I was curious to see why the reviewer chose the story. After reading her review, all I could think, was why would anyone rec a story they didn’t like? Comments came in, all supporting the unfavourable view of the story, sprinkled here in there with some positive points for “fairness”, but in the majority, negative.
You speak of honesty. So lets be honest. Brutally so, as that seems to be the standard for this discussion site.
I didn’t expect everyone to like it, in fact, I was reasonably sure several people who participate on this site wouldn’t, judging by previous discussions on anything that isn’t to their taste (particularly when they expected to dislike it before even starting). And that’s the whole crux of it isn’t it? These comments can be excused for being unkind because they are put under the convenient label of constructive criticism, when really, its not constructive criticism of a story at all, its merely stating personal taste.
I have had constructive criticism of my stories and never has it taken on such a personal viewpoint as this one has, personal taste rather than helpful advice as to how MY story can be improved, without changing the content of the story to suit another’s personal taste. Because constructive criticism doesn’t change a story, it helps with improving the delivery of a subject that the author has chosen to write about, whether you like the subject or not.
I come to this site occasionally in the hope of picking up a plot driven story I haven’t yet come across. But the recommendations are usually the same ones, nothing new or recent (although I admit I could have missed them). And yet in my 8 years in this fandom there are several new writers. We are still on honesty aren’t we? Why is this? Is it because there is only one formula that appeals?
If that’s so, good on you all. But then, why rec a story that doesn’t follow your formula? Why rec a story for the sole purpose of enticing agreement to your dissatisfaction? Because that’s how it appeared to me. Why rec a story at all, if it wasn’t liked? That is what has upset me the most. Not that you didn’t like it, but that there was no defence against anyone else that may not have liked it. If everyone likes a story, its boring discussion? So everyone not liking a story is fun discussion? At the expense of the writer? Attacking the story IS attacking the author, how can it not be? Particularly as the dissatisfaction seems for the most part, only a matter of personal taste.
RE: author response part 1
Date: 2015-09-06 09:54 am (UTC)Guilty!
I loved your story, but I couldn't find the time to reread it for the Reading Room.
So I missed the arguments. Add lack of time...
Sorry!
I've told you then, that I had troubles with 'the boy' too, and that I replaced it with 'Doyle'..., and you wasn't upset at all!? And you gave me a very good explanation for your doing.
I wasn't totally convinced, but I loved the story anyway because it's special and a damn good writing!
And I felt that you put a lot of heartblood into it.
I think we parted as friends - didn't we?
I really should have defended the story/you!
Can you forgive me?
...and stay with Pros???
Please!
RE: author response part 1
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From:author response part 2
Date: 2015-09-06 06:12 am (UTC)I absolutely shudder to think, how crushed a fledging writer would feel, on a first foray into a fandom that she loves, to have her work recced on a discussion site where the announcement stated that it wasn’t liked - lets discuss. This fandom does not have many new stories, or authors and if not for the big bang, I doubt there would be anything new at all. And I’m not surprised.
But lets clear up some points, shall we? Points, I might add, that were also brought up at the AO3 site, in a far kinder delivery than on here, and were happily addressed by me, something that could have been taken into account when the review decided to air her grievances.
Doyle’s age, the age difference, the youth problem. Name it what you will, it seems to be the biggest bugbear. Ok, fine, others have had a problem with it, and I addressed it on A03. Yes, I researched it. You have no idea how much. And the more I researched it, the more I learned that life back then was not sugar coated. It is not modern times. It was a harsh world and life was harsh and it was even harsher for those that did not fit into the genteel world. Whether it upsets you or not, children from the age of 12 and up, both boys and girls were prostituted out, willingly or not, it happened. There was no age of consent for boys and the consent age for girls had only just been raised from 13 to 16, and yet still largely ignored, something quite horrible to our modern sensibilities, but normal for back then. This was a problem I foresaw with the modern attitude of readers, specially the slash fans, who like their stories with gay tolerance and happy ever afters and clean sex.
Lorraine’s pictures depicted a Doyle leaning against a wall, clearly in the role of a rent boy. Yes he does look rather like the age of our Doyle. However if I wanted an accurate story, I knew that a man of his age would not be in that position, would not be on the streets and would not be offering himself the way women did. Why? Because it was illegal, it was immoral and it was dangerous. It was a prison sentence, it was a beating, it was death. Boys were more often used for this purpose, young boys as well and they were housed in houses like Cleveland Street. Many did it willingly for the money, but it was not done on the streets, to do so ensured a prison sentence, hard labour and in the case of the military a hanging offence. Men had a better means of finding like minded individuals. They had a hand signal, that only another would recognise and they also frequented the houses that the boys worked in. History. So do I stick with history, or do I sugar coat it? I chose to stick with history but even I didn’t like the age thing, so I compromised by making these boys appear younger than they actually were. It was the only way I could do it and still write a legal (from today’s standard) story, of which it IS actually against the law today, to describe underage sex and I was careful not to do that.
For the record, Doyle is pretty much the same age as Bodie. He is also very good at appearing how he wants people to see him. He was searching for abductors of young men, so he made himself appear much younger to fit the role, something Bodie did recognise and take advantage of himself when outfitting him. He was NOT unequal to Bodie, if so, Bodie would never have asked him to help him, relied on his ability, or recognise that he was far more than street rabble, to which he told his uncle. He was not years younger, nor was he a child, and this was reinforced, I thought, during the trip to Dirty Dicks where Doyle shed his young air and became harder and tougher.
author response part 3
Date: 2015-09-06 06:13 am (UTC)The fact that this issue was brought up over and over again in this discussion (to the point where people who had taken the context the right way were being converted to the incorrect assumptions and disturbed at the thought that Doyle was a child and taken advantage of by Bodie) was extremely distressing to me as a writer. It made me feel like I was some sort of paedophile pervert who got her kicks writing sordid kiddie porn. It was for this reason, that I removed the fic permanently.
Second problem, Bodie unsure of being attractive to Doyle. Well why wouldn’t he? He was risking an awful lot by even considering letting someone he had only just met know his true nature. And he HAD only just met him, was still getting to know him and see how he may feel about same sex relationships, and was being slow and careful in his approaches. Because there was a lot to lose, his career, his family, his social standing. All of this was so important to men of this era, that many of them refused to act on their homosexuality and married and had loveless lives, rather than face society tarred with that brush. The POV was mainly from Bodie’s, to highlight how a man might move through this condemning society and still find his hearts desire, which is a partner who might share his life discreetly. Oscar Wilde was sent to prison for homosexual tendencies and it broke him, both as a writer and as a man. Next…
Boy, lad, young man. Ok, I admit, it might have been repetitious, but in a fic this length working to a deadline, it’s easy to miss how this can be overdone. The thought patterns are Bodies. He sees what he thinks is a boy and from then on, keeps that vernacular in his mind, even once he knows that Doyle is cleverly playing a role. The vernacular is enhanced by the habit of the time of calling any one of a less social standing as well as a lesser age, or even in a joking superior way, boy, or lad. Even a policeman in modern CI5 said to Cowley “Your boys are running roughshot over my men.” Doyle would have been boy to Bodie even if they were the same age, because to Bodie, a rising captain in the military, he was superior to Doyle, who seemed to have no class distinction and Bodie, being careful with his attraction, had not yet been able to tentatively probe to knowing more about his background. From a writers view, it was tedious enough researching military history, and I put in the bare minimum I could, without doing pages and pages of background that would have bogged down the story. The story was about finding a missing man, and along the way finding something infinitely more precious, not going into family tree and history of three generations.
author response part 4
Date: 2015-09-06 06:15 am (UTC)I also would have thought readers (like Moth2Fic) could imagine their own reasons for why Doyle was of the social standing that he was. I would have thought I did not need to spoon feed every single detail about them, when the timeline of them knowing each other is only a few weeks. It would have bogged down the story.
Moth2fic identified with every single intention I had in this fic and she did not stoop to thinking the worst of me, simply for writing accurate history. Every response she made to the voiced niggles, could have come from my own mouth. Thank you very much Moth and bless you for trusting me to deliver an accurate, if cruel background, and not some sort of sordid fetish.
And while we are on this subject. Research, again. It came up several times in comments about the research that went into this fic and was acknowledged by most people who had input. Yes, again, yes. Tedious long involved searching. And yet that same meticulous research that led to this story has been questioned and disbelieved and pushed aside for what is thought to be more likely, even though there was admittance of knowing nothing about the period in history. My research was not trusted to be accurate. Only Moth2fic realised that it was.
Subtle sex, rather than a full on sex scene? That was Lorraine’s preference, otherwise the story would not have been slash at all.
Why go down the path of Cleveland Street at all? Because the painting was done to another story and I guessed the direction of that story. I did not want to do the same thing in case the original author decided to finish her story, which I hope she does. I wanted it not to be obvious what Doyle was and who he was, so as to distance this story from the other. It seems that was unsatisfactory, but then again, like I said, I’m an amateur writer.
CI5mates is my friend and I thank her for challenging the more thoughtless responses to this discussion. She is entirely correct is saying that it was obviously not intentionally hurtful, yet it hurt all the same. (and thank you Heliophile Oxen, your comment did much to soothe).
There is no way to guarantee whether a writer may or not be offended by discussion on her work and there is that fine line between freedom of speech and rudeness. But I am an active member of this fandom, and had I been contacted to take part in this discussion and answer the niggles with a more friendly, “What made you write it this way, its not the sort of scenario I am usually comfortable reading?” we might have had a whole different discussion. And we all might have learned something constructive from the experience.
I wish you all well in the reading room. I was going to participate on Sally Fell’s story and Legacy of Temptation (which I love), but I feel now that it is time to bow out for good.
RE: author response part 4
Date: 2015-09-06 08:10 am (UTC)The Reading Room isn't about providing constructive criticism, it's about people stating their personal opinions (which is what you've noted they do). It's not meant to be anything else. That said, people are encouraged to do so politely and to explain how they came to those opinions, which in the best world will be taken constructively by an author. Of course everyone has different personal reactions to opinions in general.
We don't contact authors automatically when their story is offered by someone for reading/discussion, because as noted above the logistics of this would be difficult in most cases, but also because once a story is published, on the internet or elsewhere, then it's open to everyone's thoughts and opinions anyway. It's true that we don't often get to hear the negative ones, but that doesn't mean that people aren't allowed to have them and voice them. That said, authors have in the past offered to join in discussions, and been very welcome to do so. You would have been very welcome if you'd chosen to participate, and you would have been able to answer points when they arose.
That said, everything in the discussion, as has been noted by the people who took part, was said politely and in the majority of cases people said how much they liked the story overall before adding any critique. It's not fair to ask people only to make positive comments about stories, I'm afraid - its not honest and it's not what discussion is. As I said above to CI5mates - and I appreciate this is difficult to see if you're reading everything at once, and in fact may not always be physically visible - one of the points of discussion is that people offer their own perspectives and that means that others have a chance to say "but did you realise..." and offer them another way of looking at things. That works both ways - I don't think anyone was "converted" into not liking your story, but in any case the opposite also happens, people who might not have appreciated something find that they understand it when seen from a different angle. And that can't happen without discussion, of what people like and don't like. If we disallow such discussion, then anyone who doesn't like something is frozen in that dislike, they have no way of changing their minds.
You say that there was only one negative opinion given about the story by everyone and no one was able to say anything different, and I can appreciate that if you're feeling upset it might have looked this way, but that isn't actually true. In fact almost everyone said that they liked it and explained why, and some people then added an explanation of what didn't work for them as well. In some cases other people responded or commented independently to give their interpretation of things other people didn't like, and how it could be seen differently. You say this didn't happen, but it really did - and in fact you've noted a few people who did so.
I think everyone appreciated that you had researched the period to write the story, and of course any long story involves alot of work and parts of our heart (I also write, and I write long stories, so I do know this). But just as with anything else, people see history very differently. What you may have felt you explained to your satisfaction was accepted by some people but not by others, and I'm afraid that's a perfectly natural situation. And of course because your story is based on history, critique of the history you've used is entangled with the story and would be difficult to change even if an author wanted to, so it no doubt comes across as a harder criticism than if someone simply pointed out a typo.
RE: author response part 4
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Date: 2015-09-06 01:42 pm (UTC)I also would have thought readers (like Moth2Fic) could imagine their own reasons for why Doyle was of the social standing that he was. I would have thought I did not need to spoon feed every single detail about them, when the timeline of them knowing each other is only a few weeks. It would have bogged down the story.
Moth2fic identified with every single intention I had in this fic and she did not stoop to thinking the worst of me, simply for writing accurate history. Every response she made to the voiced niggles, could have come from my own mouth. Thank you very much Moth and bless you for trusting me to deliver an accurate, if cruel background, and not some sort of sordid fetish.
And while we are on this subject. Research, again. It came up several times in comments about the research that went into this fic and was acknowledged by most people who had input. Yes, again, yes. Tedious long involved searching. And yet that same meticulous research that led to this story has been questioned and disbelieved and pushed aside for what is thought to be more likely, even though there was admittance of knowing nothing about the period in history. My research was not trusted to be accurate. Only Moth2fic realised that it was.
Subtle sex, rather than a full on sex scene? That was Lorraine’s preference, otherwise the story would not have been slash at all.
Why go down the path of Cleveland Street at all? Because the painting was done to another story and I guessed the direction of that story. I did not want to do the same thing in case the original author decided to finish her story, which I hope she does. I wanted it not to be obvious what Doyle was and who he was, so as to distance this story from the other. It seems that was unsatisfactory, but then again, like I said, I’m an amateur writer.
CI5mates is my friend and I thank her for challenging the more thoughtless responses to this discussion. She is entirely correct is saying that it was obviously not intentionally hurtful, yet it hurt all the same. (and thank you Heliophile Oxen, your comment did much to soothe).
There is no way to guarantee whether a writer may or not be offended by discussion on her work and there is that fine line between freedom of speech and rudeness. But I am an active member of this fandom, and had I been contacted to take part in this discussion and answer the niggles with a more friendly, “What made you write it this way, its not the sort of scenario I am usually comfortable reading?” we might have had a whole different discussion. And we all might have learned something constructive from the experience.
I wish you all well in the reading room. I was going to participate on Sally Fell’s story and Legacy of Temptation (which I love), but I feel now that it is time to bow out for good.
no subject
Date: 2015-09-06 03:08 pm (UTC)This story is an AU, personally I'm very open to every fantasy, change to canon and twist and world that the author creates.
I also think that every ff story is unique and so are their characters and I personally don't tend to make much of an effort to compare it in every detail with the original series. More important to me is the world building, the building characters as such, if the story sucks me into it's world.
I think that every author picks up different things of the original series and I think that's a big part of the fun actually.
I really hope you'll stay.
no subject
Date: 2015-09-06 07:25 pm (UTC)I love it to read your stories and it would be a loss for the fandom if you leave it.
Please stay!
This is addressed to the Readers in the Reading Room
Date: 2015-09-07 04:36 am (UTC)The Reading Room is a space for discussion of fic as should be obvious from the ci5hq comm user info (http://ci5hq.livejournal.com/profile). It’s in some respects a livejournal version of the Pros-Lit Yahoo Group, which many of us also belong to. The Fanlore entry for Pros-Lit (http://fanlore.org/wiki/Pros-Lit) explains what its purpose is fairly unambiguously. Or try the various LOC’s in old-school letterzines. So let me be clear – talking about stories without involving the author in the discussion (sometimes explicitly saying they should step back and let the readers speak) has been a part of Pros fandom for a very, very long time.
IMO
RE: to the Readers in the Reading Room
Date: 2015-09-07 04:38 am (UTC)I’ll be moving away from Pros fandom, the enjoyment of creating has well and truly been extinguished.
I’m not sure if Jaicen realises it, but this is such a classic flounce statement (http://fanlore.org/wiki/Fandom_Flounce). It’s all our fault for being such meanies!!! She's only leaving because of what we’ve done!!! While I’m not denying the intention or the emotions behind it, any associated blame-throwing - stated or implied - is absolutely without foundation.
Comments came in, all supporting the unfavourable view of the story… but in the majority, negative.
To support her case here, Jaicen would need to point out which opinions were overwhelmingly negative – which she has absolutely not done, because her impressions are objectively incorrect.
its not constructive criticism of a story at all, its merely stating personal taste
Constructive criticism would be me telling Jaicen directly that she needed a couple of apostrophes there. I am a little sorry for the snark, but guys! This is READER space! Opinions and personal taste are everything – sometimes we sway each other's opinions, sometimes we don’t! What we do is discuss, discuss, discuss…
Attacking the story IS attacking the author, how can it not be?
No it isn’t. This statement is not true unless the author is attacked, which never happened (and I don’t really think the story was, either).(1)
and this fandom seems to be dying
Pros has supposedly been ‘dying’ for decades….
several paragraphs explaining how much research went into the story and what it was really like back then…
There was far, far too much for me to pick out points, and a couple of things that I am taking as coming from emotion rather than rationality, but I know research and how much it takes, and I am a historical reenactor, and know stuff from that angle, and I can see the truth of the effort Jaicen said she put into it. (2)
This doesn’t contradict the fact that writing a story isn’t just about what you know, it’s how you tell it: an ‘A’ for effort does not automatically translate into an ‘A’ for the result. Nor does it mean that the author gets it right about everything (this could have been an interesting discussion point, too). History’s a complicated subject, not just a collation of facts. Several people here know quite a bit about it. It is incorrect to suggest that we (collectively) got it wrong because we “don’t understand” history.
And again, the discussion was really just warming up and we would have had a full weekend to talk about it, but that was effectively derailed.
I have a legally acquired pdf of the published work which I will share with anyone who lost their access when the original was taken down from AO3 (http://fanlore.org/wiki/Sharing_Deleted_Fanworks). Just pm me. Or the pdf download still appears to be working for now: http://download.archiveofourown.org/downloads/Ja/Jaicen5/1023070/19%20Cleveland%20Street.pdf?updated_at=1387595566
I do wonder whether we shouldn’t pay a little more attention to the user information and rules of engagement at The Reading Room, because it is clear from what has just occurred that they need blunt restatement from time to time.
(1) Actually I think the best advice these days is for authors not to engage with criticism, no matter how tempted they are.
(2) Just to be clear about the age of consent business: the issue of legality, under 1810’s law, current era British law, or Australian law in relation to written work, are known to me and I never considered that this work contravened either legally or morally. Nor do I expect that any of you did either.
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From:no subject
Date: 2015-09-07 08:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-09-07 10:46 pm (UTC)Jaicen said she took her story down from a public website, I can't see where she requested fans not to share it off the internet.
Also it's me not