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ci5hqTitle: 19 Cleveland Street
Author: Jaicen5
Pairing: Bodie/Doyle
Link: http://archiveofourown.org/works/1023070
Other Notes: Part of the C15 Box of Tricks 2013
I had second thoughts about choosing this story. I’ve never cared for there being two “Bodie”s or two “Doyle”s in the same story, but the fact that it was written by someone who, up to that point, wrote gen, I found myself intrigued enough that I decided to go for it.
The story is a crossover with the made-for-TV movie Jack the Ripper. which co-starred Lewis Collins as Sergeant George Godley, a real person who was involved with the hunt for Jack the Ripper. Both Godley and Bodie appear in this story, with Godley cast as Bodie’s uncle. Bodie has come to him for help to find a man from his regiment who has gone missing while in London.
The story is well written, the plot fully formed, with several original characters who round things out. There is the hunt for the missing man, which takes up the bulk of the story, the introduction of Doyle, and his part in finding the now several missing men, and, it turns out, boys. There’s also a couple of relationships for Bodie, though what their place is in his life is not immediately made clear, adding to the intrigue. I also liked that Godley had a big role in the proceedings.
Unfortunately, there were a fe things I didn’t care for. I didn’t see a Bodie, or a Doyle, who I recognized. Bodie is too unsure of himself, constantly wondering if Doyle feels anything for him, and seemingly unaware of his own good looks–even while acknowledging that women tend to throw themselves at him. Doyle is basically a shadow. He’s there, but so little is known of him that it’s hard to overlay our Doyle onto him. Especially since he’s usually referred to as a “lad” or “boy.” I wanted, at some point, for there to be an acknowledgement that he’s not a boy. When it comes, it’s almost as an aside near the end of the story.
Of course, they end up together, but their love making is always a “fade to black.” Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mind that; a sex scene isn’t always necessary. But I wasn’t getting enough for me to feel that they were truly emotionally involved, and the lack of sex just made it that much harder.
I do wonder if there’s a sequel to this out there. Bodie and Doyle are together, or will be, at the end of the story. But so much was made of how difficult a life together would be, well nigh impossible, actually, that I can’t help but wonder what comes next.
Because it is well written, as much effort as I'm sure she put into it, I really wish I could have liked this story more than I did. It's a solid story, just not right for me.
Oh, and there's some lovely art by Lorraine Brevig to go along with the story.
Author: Jaicen5
Pairing: Bodie/Doyle
Link: http://archiveofourown.org/works/1023070
Other Notes: Part of the C15 Box of Tricks 2013
I had second thoughts about choosing this story. I’ve never cared for there being two “Bodie”s or two “Doyle”s in the same story, but the fact that it was written by someone who, up to that point, wrote gen, I found myself intrigued enough that I decided to go for it.
The story is a crossover with the made-for-TV movie Jack the Ripper. which co-starred Lewis Collins as Sergeant George Godley, a real person who was involved with the hunt for Jack the Ripper. Both Godley and Bodie appear in this story, with Godley cast as Bodie’s uncle. Bodie has come to him for help to find a man from his regiment who has gone missing while in London.
The story is well written, the plot fully formed, with several original characters who round things out. There is the hunt for the missing man, which takes up the bulk of the story, the introduction of Doyle, and his part in finding the now several missing men, and, it turns out, boys. There’s also a couple of relationships for Bodie, though what their place is in his life is not immediately made clear, adding to the intrigue. I also liked that Godley had a big role in the proceedings.
Unfortunately, there were a fe things I didn’t care for. I didn’t see a Bodie, or a Doyle, who I recognized. Bodie is too unsure of himself, constantly wondering if Doyle feels anything for him, and seemingly unaware of his own good looks–even while acknowledging that women tend to throw themselves at him. Doyle is basically a shadow. He’s there, but so little is known of him that it’s hard to overlay our Doyle onto him. Especially since he’s usually referred to as a “lad” or “boy.” I wanted, at some point, for there to be an acknowledgement that he’s not a boy. When it comes, it’s almost as an aside near the end of the story.
Of course, they end up together, but their love making is always a “fade to black.” Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mind that; a sex scene isn’t always necessary. But I wasn’t getting enough for me to feel that they were truly emotionally involved, and the lack of sex just made it that much harder.
I do wonder if there’s a sequel to this out there. Bodie and Doyle are together, or will be, at the end of the story. But so much was made of how difficult a life together would be, well nigh impossible, actually, that I can’t help but wonder what comes next.
Because it is well written, as much effort as I'm sure she put into it, I really wish I could have liked this story more than I did. It's a solid story, just not right for me.
Oh, and there's some lovely art by Lorraine Brevig to go along with the story.
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Date: 2015-09-03 05:36 am (UTC)For a start I'll admit that I'm not particularly fond of a Doyle who appears or actually is years younger than Bodie. It seems that the author saddled herself with the difficult proposition that Doyle looks much younger than he is so that the "rent boy" sub-plot, which connects to the original Cleveland Street case involving Inspector Abberline, would seem more plausible until such time as it was resolved. And then she decided she needed to reinforce this point with the readers by using 'boy' and 'lad' most of the way through.
The art that goes with the story is delish, and doesn't particularly require that interpretation. In life it's perfectly okay to have a man looking for sex with men without it being a hooker situation, but if the story demands a tie-in with male brothels engaging telegraph boys for wealthy clients, then I think it's best just to apply the metaphorical third generation video filter, mention the point only as much as absolutely necessary and get on with the rest of the tale.
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Date: 2015-09-03 09:53 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-09-03 10:01 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-09-03 10:07 am (UTC)And, yes, the artwork is wonderful. I can easily see why you'd set it up so that you see it over and over again. :-)
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Date: 2015-09-03 12:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-09-03 12:24 pm (UTC)I'm confessing up front - I didn't even begin to read it! Sorry - RL is biting my bottom every hour, on the hour, the rotter!
But! Thank you for choosing this one. I'm a great fan of Jaicen's writing - she's one of the few non-slash writers I read - and I loved this story to bits when I first read it. I can recall being a bit irritated at Doyle appearing so much younger than Bodie for the majority of the story (does this shift? I'm not sure now), but thinking the research and the writing were immaculate. So - thank you for suggesting it for the Reading Room, because I will read it again as soon as I can, and it's always brilliant to see what other people feel about a story.
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Date: 2015-09-03 12:44 pm (UTC)Put simply, I love the story. Having a preference for gen, I found the slash subtle and consistent with the nature of the story. It’s a good old fashioned love story with a great plot and to my mind the fade to black works better than a graphic description of a sexual encounter. Personally, I love a good strong plot and if a hot sexual encounter value adds then it’s appropriate but if it doesn’t then it becomes gratuitous and the story just becomes a vehicle for the sex scene which is perfectly fine if that’s what you are looking for.
I admit to being a bit of a history heathen and don’t profess to know if all the historical details are accurate but it painted a hell of a vivid picture in my mind particularly with Jacien’s turn of phrase and use of words from the era. To my way of thinking the term ‘boy’ and ‘lad’ had connotations other than age back in those days and it didn’t make me view Doyle as significantly younger than Bodie. I do know a lot of research went into the historic detail. Jaicen has considered the detail in every passage and adds descriptors about the small details to make the scene come alive. This is what I love about her writing style, its descriptive without being flowery and is easy to read.
…It was a fair walk and Bodie was hopelessly lost by the time Doyle led him into a closed in, barely lit, narrow yard, his apprehension not helped at all by the ominous rustlings coming from the rotting refuse piled high in the clogged gutters.
I get an immediate sense of the nature and even the smell of the place.
Not being a huge AU fan didn’t stop me from enjoying this long read and hats off for the effort of writing such a long story, it was a huge undertaking.
I am surprised by the comment I didn’t see a Bodie or a Doyle I recognized but as I mentioned in last weeks review I think we all have a different opinion on what makes the characters ring true. I thought Doyle especially was very true to character, as much as he could be in the setting we find him in. His tough coolness tempered with his feisty moments really rang true for me especially when he was so badly injured and determined to get away at all costs. I must add at this point the HC was wonderful. I’d expect Bodie to be unsure of himself when it comes to considering something wholly illegal and at that time socially unacceptable. I didn’t needed to know their future, the story has to stop somewhere and I prefer to fill in the gaps myself.
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Date: 2015-09-03 12:48 pm (UTC)Jaicens stories work for me, she writes wonderful, and I even read her stories though most of them are gen because of that.
I loved this one a lot, but using boy and lad so much to refer to Doyle disturbed me quite a lot. Apart from that?
Great plot, great story!!
Thanks for reccing it!
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Date: 2015-09-03 01:54 pm (UTC)The story is really well researched, and very well written. I'm only sorry I didn't enjoy it as much as so many other readers did!
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Date: 2015-09-03 02:05 pm (UTC)I am surprised by the comment "I didn’t see a Bodie or a Doyle I recognized," but as I mentioned in last weeks review I think we all have a different opinion on what makes the characters ring true.
Well, exactly. :-) While you thought Doyle very true to character, his tough coolness and feisty moments didn't ring true for me. I'm not sure how to explain it. That he was described that way because it's expected, but said more than shown? I don't know. And it wasn't so much Bodie being unsure in considering the relationship that I didn't care for. It was his constantly being unsure if Doyle wanted him, was attracted to him.
And, yes, the story does have to stop somewhere. I just wish it had stopped a little further along.
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Date: 2015-09-03 02:07 pm (UTC)But I'm glad you enjoyed it. Her work is so well done, it deserves to be read. :-)
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Date: 2015-09-03 03:01 pm (UTC)I had various niggles throughout, when things seemed to contradict themselves. Maureen, for instance is described both as having a small rounded belly and a "swelling pregnancy", and then as "not showing much yet". Next thing we see - presumably only a day or so after the final confrontation, "Maureen was showing, she had to get married, and Jem Doyle was still missing." And although we hear of Bodie's appreciation of Doyle when he first sees him, and there are hints that Bodie is gay even before that, he then asks himself "Could one even force a man to have sex for that matter?", which doesn't make sense to me as the thought of a fully-grown man who identifies as gay.
The characterisation threw me. Like you, I didn't see Bodie at all, and although Doyle was closer, the impression was spoiled for me by the insistence that either he was young, or that he looked so young - that's not our Doyle, he certainly looks as old as Bodie - and that Bodie thought of him as an innocent! I felt the age issue (not just with Doyle) was rather hammered home too - that the lads selling sex were all 18 even though they looked younger, especially because 18 was only briefly the age of consent (for gay sex) in the 1990s-ish, so that threw me too... especially when Bodie then went on to have sex with Doyle and talk about him as the boy, which to me implies a much younger age than 18, so that I ended up feeling uncomfortable about their relationship... All the talk about young men who looked younger than they really were threw me too - kids were more likely to look older than their age (by our standards) in the 1800s...
Doyle is described as a street urchin, so how did he know how to eat in a fancy restaurant, right down to ordering from a menu? Why was Jack Crane made out to be an uncaring villain? Although we don't see much of him in Pros, he didn't seem at all villainous to me in Wild Justice. Why did the villainous henchmen have to be East European? Bulgarian? Was it supposed to be an extra connection to Queen Victoria? Its all little things I'm describing, but they meant that I was constantly thrown as I read the story. Oh, and switchingHow are you going to play it - Drunk I think from Doyle's line to Bodie's made me blink too... And then it turned out that Jem had just been sick for 10 weeks, unable to get a message home for all that time, and everyone could live sort-of-happily-ever-after... if the outcome of B/D's romance hadn't rested on it, I would have quite liked that little scene, but it came over as a bit pat.
The other thing was that I didn't quite believe the slash. I might have been coloured by knowing that the author doesn't usually write slash, but... again, I think it was lots of little things accumulating. Bodie is the only gay character who seems to be portrayed in a positive light - even Doyle isn't really, as far as being gay. Dickie Knee is bi, but is a drunkard and "effeminate looking", and not able to tell when a young boy was actually being raped. And everyone else is either being forced, or is evil for having used a brothel where its assumed they're forcing young lads... I don't suppose the author meant to imply that, but... again, it was just enough to make me feel uncomfortable as I read.
So... because I am a picky bugger when it comes to stories, whereas other people just get on and enjoy what's there (*g*), much as I fancied a Victorian B/D AU, this one wasn't quite for me either...
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Date: 2015-09-03 04:53 pm (UTC)I like the idea of having Godley as Bodie's uncle, and liked the use of the Ripper as background, tying it all to some real events and beliefs of Queen Vic's era. I liked the idea of Doyle's role too, but felt it didn't always work so well in practice - he doesn't seem to me to stick realistically to any one social class (and we are set in an era when social class was even more of a marker than it is today): he seems almost to be playing working-class as an undercover role (he has good manners, he knows French, but he is also suffering real hunger ... and he's familiar with both the well-off mistress of some minor aristocrat and some very low low-lifes ...). All we know about his background is that his grandfather was a Bow Street runner and his brother is a craftsman; I suppose the family could have been a bit better off once and fallen on harder times since, but it's a tricky balancing act and tended to throw me out. Incidentally, I would have quite liked to see Doyle heading towards becoming a police officer at the end, as was hinted at earlier on :-)
I didn't like Doyle being too young and apparently too slight of build: I could buy it as being put on as part of an undercover role - not as his reality. I liked his being a competent fighter, of course.
I got a little weary of the ins and outs of army ranks and regiments ... but I remember that the first time I read it I was quite anxious to find out who if anyone was secretly on our heroes' side *g*
And I have niggles with the language, dotted here and there throughout (I seem to remember a rather odd instance of "privy to" being used to mean "exclusive to" rather than "aware/knowledgeable of", for example). There were quite a few instances of language or behaviour that made me twitch. And I'm not quite sure how Lucy can have the family and background she does, and still not have a fire lit in the room where they practice dancing (I know it's useful for the plot at that moment; it just seems odd - a tiny tiny detail. One would not think twice about ordering a servant to do such a thing even for half an hour's use - unless she's so poor she needs to economise on coal).
I don't mind fade-to-black (I wouldn't want it in all my stories, but it's fine where it works) though I could have done with a final reunion (and possibly one slightly more detailed sex scene. Yes I know, I'm being a bit trad wanting a sex scene towards the end - but there's an awful lot of tension to resolve! *bg*).
I would have liked to see a bit of how they work things out in practice. Maybe an epilogue, or even a short sequel (or a long one!).
I'd like Bodie more sure of himself, yes. And Doyle more of a man (as opposed to boy or lad) more of the time! Strength and equality is part of why they love one another, for me (too)! *bg*
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Date: 2015-09-03 07:14 pm (UTC)I love this writer’s non-slash work (her Beginnings story was one of *the* best first met stories I’ve ever read), so when she herself has said that she doesn’t feel that comfortable writing slash, I take my hat off to her for managing to write an impressive B/D story and the kind I now much prefer with the sex between them implied rather than made too explicit or overstated.
Especially since he’s usually referred to as a “lad” or “boy.” I wanted, at some point, for there to be an acknowledgement that he’s not a boy
A few people seem to have picked up on this.... I don’t remember it as jarring as it kind of tied in with the general vulnerable, waif like, undernourished image of Doyle, at least at the beginning of the story (I can’t remember if Bodie feeds him up!). (And let’s not forget there’s a pub scene in one Pros episode when Bodie actually refers to Doyle as ‘the boy’.) I'm sure it's been mentioned that the author herself addressed this point in the feedback at the end of the story at A03 and reminds us that to an extent her hands were tied as she had to write the story to existing images rather than the other way round.
I quickly realised that having both men older would not have worked for the scenario the painting depicted
So she had a fair number of logistical problems to deal with along with all the challenges of research, checking facts and then the ultimate challenge of being able to soak up everything she's juggling with, absorb them and then use them to step into a totally different age. As far as I can tell, not living then, she succeeded very well.
An age difference often implies an inequality in power, something that's almost anathema in the Pros fandom. We want them to be partners. Equals. By constantly mentioning Doyle's status as a boy, the writer made that hard to see
That’s an interesting point but I felt they were unequal - at least to begin with - for all kinds of other reasons: money; the power inherent in Bodie’s work; the lack of power inherent in Doyle’s work; social status etc. etc.
Thank you for such an interesting choice of story and review, Gilda, I've enjoyed it!
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Date: 2015-09-03 10:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-09-03 10:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-09-04 09:24 am (UTC)I'll start with what I liked. I liked the sense of atmosphere and the solid plot. There were some well-developed characters. The historical background seemed fine to me, although some of the social detail grated a bit.
The difficulties I encountered were mostly what others have already talked about: Doyle as a 'lad'; Doyle having social graces above his station in life; Bodie's unfamiliarity with the gay sex scene if he had identified as gay (or at least bi) for years; Bodie's uncertainty about Doyle's commitment. I won't go into detail but that covers my major points.
I think the real difficulty I had was the lad/boy thing. Okay, the art had already been created. It's lovely but personally I wouldn't have seen the need to stick quite so closely to a major age difference when firstly it doesn't reflect what we see in canon and secondly seems to be resolved in a blink of the eye - 'oh, don't worry, he just looks really young for his age.' I'm not sure I can suspend disbelief that much, unfortunately. If someone has been living in poverty and hardship they are more likely to look older than their age. The power imbalance could have been interesting *g* but again wasn't dealt with satisfactorily, being resolved almost invisibly.
I found Godley's reaction to Bodie's sexuality hard to believe as well. I'm certainly no expert in the period but this was nice and comfortable and convenient. I get the impression that instead, Godley's reaction might have been either have been to ignore and deny, or to confront and shame.
There were occasional - I don't know if they were Brit-picks or typos, or just clunky grammatical sentences *eyes that sentence sideways* - but they threw me out of the story occasionally. Sometimes it was a hop from one POV to another, sometimes it was almost a missing sentence, but it made me stop and think. For example:
“What does he look like?” Bodie asked curiously.
Mrs Whitcombe did one better. She produced a photograph.
I can see that Mrs. Whitcombe was probably going to describe the boy, but instead produced a photograph. As I said, though, I had to stop for a teeny moment to provide that link for myself.
So for me, this was something I read with a frown, on the whole :) Just a few too many niggles and typos to let me immerse myself in the story, which is a shame because I love long, involved, plotty stories.
Thanks for the rec, and thanks to everyone who is commenting. I'm enjoying the discussion.
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Date: 2015-09-04 11:10 am (UTC)Like you, there were other things that I had a problem with, but Doyle's age was probably the biggest. Bodie having sex with someone he believes to be under the age of consent was sort of disturbing. And when did he learn that he was actually much older? It didn't seem to me that Lorraine's illos made Doyle out to look especially young, so I didn't see the need for him to be presented that way. And, as you say, most people of the time would have looked older than they were, especially the poor.
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Date: 2015-09-04 11:15 am (UTC)Exactly! *g* But my biggest problem with the fade-to-black was that I really wanted some sort of emotional scene that would solidify their feelings for each other in my mind. I never got that. Bodie is lust sick most of the time, but I never get a really true, deep feeling that he feels much more. Often, that can come out in a love scene, but we weren't given any.
I would have truly loved a final reunion scene! There were too many other complications that would need to be addressed for me to be satisfied with just Bodie suddenly knowing that Doyle was free.
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Date: 2015-09-04 11:17 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-09-04 11:24 am (UTC)The thing I don't understand, and perhaps I'll have to go back and read the comments and responses on AO3, is why Doyle is constantly depicted as looking so young. Lorraine's illos certainly don't make him out to be. He could have easily have been seen as just under 18, rather than seemingly so much younger–at least, that's how I read it. And while Bodie made have called Doyle "the boy" in an episode, I really doubt he meant to imply that Doyle was very young. I always saw it as more a figure of speech.
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Date: 2015-09-04 11:32 am (UTC)But it did seem as if she came into it with one hand tied behind her back, so I have to admire what she did manage to make of it.
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Date: 2015-09-04 11:43 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-09-04 03:58 pm (UTC)I didn’t realise he was being depicted as someone much younger than 18. (Yikes, that *is* young!) That aside, I dunno, maybe the age gap between people seems greater when you’re young and perhaps to Bodie - professional soldier and man of the world – Doyle cuts an image of youth with his curly hair, cap, ‘coquettishness’ and slight air of insolence. But yes, that would only explain Bodie’s initial impression of Doyle
while Bodie made have called Doyle "the boy" in an episode, I really doubt he meant to imply that Doyle was very young. I always saw it as more a figure of speech.
Yeah, it was just a joke from Bodie but I thought I’d try my luck and lob it into the discussion….
part 1/3
Date: 2015-09-04 06:05 pm (UTC)First off, I loved the writing - lush, atmospheric, heavy - and I loved the change in genre - it’s good to have a change sometimes. I thought that Jaicen did a great job using the constraint and weight of the times. And, as we tend to have our own shorthand, our own language (so to speak) when it has to do with Bodie and Doyle, I thought the “canon” insertions and playing with details was really wonderful. I am happy to suspend disbelief…. I am also *not* an expert on the time period, and didn’t get thrown by anything in that way! I certainly don’t expect perfection, either - I think in AUs I am very willing and happy to move off into unexpected places - and I’m not exactly sure what it is that makes an AU a B/D success in my heart, and what has it falter. In this case, I enjoyed the story very much and was antsy until I could get back to it. At first I was concerned because it was so long - would I have enough time to finish it? and then I was concerned because it wasn't long enough!
I see many comments about the age difference, and all of the boys and lads, but *everyone* seems to be young and beautiful! not just Doyle!- *New*love, Lucy's doctor (“he looked all of 16”), all of the talented youth… Directly quoting: “Puer aeternus?” Bodie asked incredulously. “Eternal Youth?” “Well it seems to fit.” I did wonder if it’s because of Bodie and Godley’s own preoccupation with age and growing older? or fears about growing older and weaker, as Lucy is with her illness. But the youth aren’t necessarily portrayed as being strong, either. I know in my head that the description of Doyle as lad or boy is a vernacular issue, at least I believe it is so, rather than as a statement about him personally…
The biggest disappointment/concern for me personally was with Doyle - I honestly was expecting him to be part of some secret police organization - or at least some sort of private detective - or *something*! (okay I know - in a way, it makes this story a bit more individual because the author didn't give in to that plot device...) The mystery about it in the beginning was perfect for me, but the ending, without real resolution (for me) disappointed me. His role, his place, his manners, his speech, Jem, Amelie, the French, his street pose - all of this back and forth, wondering, who is he? really! and then in the end after unwrapping it all, there wasn’t the big sparkly present I wanted to find… Which is NOT the author’s fault. It’s my expectations! I suppose it does go back to the convention that they are equals - they match - where one lacks, the other makes up for, and vice versa. They are both powerful and dangerous in unique ways. I kept waiting for Doyle’s side of the equation to beef up… and it did have some good jumps here and there, but in the end I felt like it wasn’t good enough, somehow.
I will try not to go on forever, but here are a few things to attempt to explain about why Doyle was a problem for me in some of these places:
His lack of confidence - he says, "me? I’m not young and beautiful. Me? I don’t have a talent” - what? but then has complete confidence at other times.
The unexplained discrepancies - knows wealthy people, knows french, knows a prominent Duke’s mistress? comes from Bow Street Runner stock? how? why?
Lines like these: (which seem to bring up both sides, and especially the lurking question of “who is he, really?!” which in the end isn’t answered the way I want it to be!) [Lines which appear in the next post....]