![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
jj-minerva.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
ci5hqRead Story Here
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to discuss the writing process and ideas behind one of my stories. I’ve included a couple of additional notes at the end because I do tend to waffle on and get side tracked. They are ‘optional extras’ if anyone is really keen to read more.
In a note I wrote when I first posted the story on Lj, I said: “I'm excited about this one, because I think it's the best thing I've written since coming back to writing after 'The Long Break’”
Although I’d been writing slash since about 1996/7 I hadn’t written anything for about 5 years and only returned late in 2008 after being lured back to writing by The Man From Uncle. By early 2009 I had written four short Pros fic, none of which I considered anything special. I looked on them more as a way to familiarise myself with and get the feel of the characters. Two contained fairly ‘stock’ plots and scenarios and two were humorous quasi-crossovers. When I came to write Greatest Song, I hoped it was fairly original ground. [Note 1]
The idea for this story was conceived while I was writing A Taste For It, although Greatest Song was written and posted long before ATFI was finished. [Note 2] I wondered, given Bodie’s undercover role and the time in which ATFI was set, what the possible long term consequences would be. AIDS was a very real danger in the late 70s and early 80s and it would be years before any possible exposure was discovered. The idea become so intriguing that I sat down and wrote Greatest Song in a very short space of time. Although the idea for Greatest Song came from ATFI, it wasn’t written as a sequel or postscript to ATFI. The stories are in no way connected and don’t share the same events.
I was aware during writing that the subject matter, the lads not being together, Bodie having AIDS and Doyle being married with kids, would not appeal to all readers, BUT it was the chance to explore this scenario that compelled me to write. I knew the lack of a ‘happily ever after’ would also disappoint some readers. Personally, I enjoy reading and writing angst because to me, it’s a very real part of life. I think it’s often easier to write a happy ending than to really move readers with angst, to make them genuinely feel for the characters and the situation they are in. I love to read stories that make me feel and this is one of the things I tried to achieve with Greatest Song.
I saw the Ray Doyle of the future looking for a home and family. In ‘Takeaway’ it doesn’t take him long to set up house with the female agent and look the picture of domesticity, and that was just as part of an undercover assignment! Bodie, on the other hand looks positively uncomfortable in the one glimpse we have of him ‘domesticated’ with his school teacher girlfriend in ‘The Gun’. So Ray would search out home and family and when he found it, I could see him and Bodie drifting apart.
The character of Samantha was sort of an Ann Holly type with a splash of Sam Carter from SG1 thrown in. I wanted a strong character because I don’t think Doyle would go for a door mat. It would have been easy to make her a ‘villain’ but then there would have been no moral dilemma for Doyle and Bodie to face. Again, if there were no children involved, Doyle’s path forward for a happy ending with Bodie would have been far simpler. Doyle has a lot at stake and so his reaction to Bodie’s news is coloured by all he has to lose. He’s thinking of himself and his family, not Bodie, which, to me, was the most realistic reaction.
Bodie, on the other hand, finally accepts that he may have been partially to blame for the ill feeling that exists between himself and Samantha. Although Bodie feels a bit sorry for himself, he is also trying to make peace with the world around him and seeing his own faults is the beginning of the process. We see this again towards the end of the story where he contemplates visiting Murphy to see how he is and show him there are no hard feelings.
At this point, I should probably point out that I didn’t write Greatest Song with the idea the lads would get back together. It was meant to be a bitter-sweet parting, a final goodbye, leaving Bodie with his regrets but knowing he did the best thing by leaving Doyle to get on with the life he had chosen. The story was about goodbyes. To me, a story doesn’t stop at the end of the page and for every story I’ve written I’ve always had ideas on what happened afterwards. I like to leave things open, not only for myself but also for the reader to ponder. The idea for the sequel, When All Is Said And Done, came about because of readers’ responses. It was readers who saw the ending, where Bodie catches a glimpse of the old Ray driving past in his aging Escort and thinks ‘miracles really could happen’ as suggesting that there was hope of them getting back together. This surprised me somewhat because my intent was to show that Bodie had not given up hope for himself and that AIDS did not have to be a death sentence. [Note 3]
Whilst writing the story I realised how little I actually knew about AIDS, HIV and it's progress. I always do research for my stories so I set about reading as much as I could and then translating it into a simple explanation as Bodie tells Ray what’s happened [there is more of this in the sequel story]
I’ve never been good at choosing titles for my stories and have resorted to song titles in the past. A song can often give an extra dimension to a story if the reader knows the lyrics, in much the same way that theme music can add to a film. This song was a bit obscure, but it had been a favourite of mine since I first heard it back in the early 70s and it matched so well with the sentiments of the story. It was easy to bring in a couple of small details from the song to make it even more fitting. You can find it on You Tube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLdQR6koC-8 It’s by the New Seekers.
When I posted Greatest Song to my Lj, I included a separate post with a warning that the story dealt with AIDS. The initial warning was that the story was NOT a death fic although some people might view it that way. I know there has been a lot of discussion recently about what should or should not be included in warnings. Being fairly new to Lj at the time I was a bit confused as to what exactly the warning rules were so thought I’d better cover all bases. Personally, I loath warnings. [Note 4]
In closing, I’ll say thanks for reading, both the story and my ramblings. There is a sequel, When All Is Said And Done, although I prefer the first story as it was originally intended as a stand alone.
Questions? Comments? Criticisms? I’m open to all and have tough skin :-)
NOTES:
Note 1: My greatest fear in writing in Pros was that I would simply be repeating what many others had done before because Pros fandom has been around for so long. It’s one of the first great fandoms, right up there with the original Star Trek! I was really worried that there wouldn’t be much left to explore or any fresh ground to be found. I come from fairly small fandoms, Sharpe, Hornblower [when it began] and Raffles where there was still plenty of room for character exploration and story development. I was very worried that I would simply be re-covering ideas that had been ‘done to death’.
Note 2: A Taste For It was the very first Pros story I started in December 2008 but it took a long time to complete. It was inspired by a MFU story, The Variations on a Theme Affair, I had written in Sept 2008 year where Illya volunteers to go undercover in place of Napoleon and so begins their friendship. At the time I wondered what other great partnerships might also fit the scenario and Bodie and Doyle sprang to mind.
Note 3: I have a roughly written addition to Greatest Song’s sequel When All Is Said And Done, languishing on my lap top. THIS one will never see the light of day on Lj as it was written for my own reasons because the ending of WAISAD just didn’t sit right with the original concept I had for the ending of Greatest Song – it’s a ‘fix-it’ if you like, for my own story. Now how weird if that?
Note 4: How often do you buy a novel and find warnings on the cover? Never. Rape, murder, graphic violence - I’ve been surprised more than once when a novel I bought turned out to contain some pretty hairy stuff that I wasn’t expecting! And I payed money for it! On the other hand, I have read and enjoyed many novels that I might not have otherwise bought or even considered had there been a warning on the cover. I think the same should be allowed for fan fic. Writers offer their stories FREE to readers. We shouldn’t have to put warnings on our work. If you don’t like it, then stop reading.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 11:22 am (UTC)We had a couple of exchanges re this story back in April and I wondered if you wanted me to post them anywhere or send them to you so you could decide what to do with them or forget them and carry on with what you've got? I don't mind what you decide. Cheers.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 11:58 am (UTC)I thought about mentioning it in my review, but decided that it was long enough already and that if the opportunity came up during the discussion I could bring it up then.
Gee, I hope we are talking about the same thing or else you're going to think I've lost my marbles :-)
no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 12:31 pm (UTC)I think most of my comments were actually directed at the story we're going to discuss today even though they arose as a result of reading another story, but yes, I'm sure you're right in that they were quite long and your review certainly doesn't need them (I just wondered if you wanted to add them somewhere - not quite sure where! - as you have included previous comments) but maybe we should leave them for now and, as you say, if there's a time when they might be pertinent or relevant to the discussion I could bring them in then.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 12:36 pm (UTC)I'll be off to bed very soon, so I might have to leave you to talk amongst yourselves until tomorrow.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 01:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 01:32 pm (UTC)The sequence of writing (and posting) is especially interesting. So you start writing one fic, with the ever-popular undercover gay bar scenario, then as a result of an idea arising from that (what if a CI5 agent contracted HIV in the course of duty?) a whole different fic spins off, this one very original and obviously something you feel strongly about.
Then as a result of feedback, you end up writing a sequel ("When All is Said and Done") which wasn't what you had in mind originally.
It shows beautifully that the process of writing isn't linear at all, it spirals and moves off in other directions.
Did you find "The Greatest Song" easier to write than your other Pros fic (or other fanfic, for that matter), given that you seem to have felt quite motivated to explore this idea? And was the idea you wanted to explore the HIV/AIDS scenario, or was it older lads with Doyle married with kids?
I so crave happy endings and avoid sad ones that I couldn't even bear to read "Greatest Song" for ages, until I decided I wasn't doing justice to your writing if I didn't read it. Putting aside the sadness, it is an excellent projection of the lads' characters and relationship into the future if they didn't 'get together' for the conventional happy ending. Very plausible and vivid. I could certainly feel the bleakness of the day when Bodie visits Doyle's house.
One could say that they made their choices and are living with them, with equanimity. But I'm still very grateful for WAISAD!
no subject
Date: 2009-07-31 01:04 am (UTC)Before I get into talking about Greatest Song, I just wanted to say that the idea above, that a CI5 agent contracts HIV in the course of their job would make for a very interesting story in itself. In some ways I'm sorry that I didn't use the original scenario as a springboard, but that would have been a completely different story. However, it would be interesting to explore how the agent would react, how the fellow agents would react, how his family/lover would react and what would happen regarding compensation? Very fertile ground!
When I first started writing, I was very linear in my approach and tended to write long series of interconnected stories, each building on the one that went before. Pros is probably the first fandom where I have approached stories differently. I'm really not sure why that is...Am I getting older and my mind wanders more? Does Pros offer more angles to write from? Maybe it was the story I was writing, When All Is Said And Done. I might add that Greatest Song was not the only story idea that evolved from WAISAD. I have another one, that I haven't started that was conceived at the same time. I might give it a go when I finish what I am currently working on.
I know Lj has a word limit for comments but I don't know what it is, so I will reply to the next part in a separate posting.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-31 01:39 am (UTC)In many ways writing Greatest Song was a bit like poking an ants' nest for me. I had a personal connection to certain elements of the story - about ten years ago I found out that my husband was bi. Like Samantha in the story, I had children and a life I had built around an image of my husband that I found wasn't exactly accurate. We worked through it and we are still together but [and here is where writing the sequel became a problem for me] in the back of my mind I do wonder what the future will bring.
This might be getting off track a bit but it does illustrate the writing process so I will explain - In writing the sequel, I had to face my greatest fears, that my husband would one day leave and all the fallout that would follow. How would I/we explain something like that to our children, our family? At the same time, I had to look at the situation from Doyle's point of view and understand and EMPATHISE with his decisions so I could write him realistically. What would make a man give up everything, his family, his home, possibly his 'good name' [because there is a lot of prejudice about] to be with someone who had a serious illness? That was difficult for me, not in the sense that I couldn't find that empathy, but that I had to acknowledge the reasons.
I'll add here that I had been writing slash for several years before I found out about my husband and I truly feel that I was able to better cope with the discovery because I had great sympathy for my characters and had often explored scenarios where characters could not be openly gay due to the times or settings. If I hadn't been a slash writer I may not have approached it as calmly as I did and our marriage might not have survived.
Originally it was just the Aids scenario that caught my imagination. As I thought about it I realised that Bodie and Doyle would be older before they found out. If they were older, then what would they be doing? Would they be married, have a family? It was a bit of a snowball. As the ideas all became interconnected, I had no option but to explore them all. In many ways it's just a reflection of the complexities of life itself.
Thank you so much. I always find it hard when I write something and know that some readers won't read it simply because of the subject matter. I understand and respect their reasoning, so it's wonderful to hear a comment like yours and know someone took a chance. Thank you.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-31 11:35 am (UTC)"If I hadn't been a slash writer I may not have approached it as calmly as I did..." How pleasing to find slash can have a useful purpose beyond mere entertainment. *g* Seriously, have to admire your stoicism and whatever else it took.
In 'Greatest Song' presumably you thought about Doyle leaving his wife but you didn't write it, that was only explicit in the sequel, and I understand that it was not your ending of choice, either personally or in a literary sense. I suppose 'Greatest Song' left it completely open about what would happen next, true to what you said about stories not really having an ending.
(which reminds me of a little squick of mine, the convention of writing 'The End', or 'Fin' on fics, it seems like a child's way of writing. Maybe there was some rationale for it in the paper circuit?).
This discussion about empathising with the characters is interesting, will comment below.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 02:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 10:15 pm (UTC)Yes I thought it ended on just the right note and was really surprised that some readers saw it as meaning something differet. But that's the beauty of it all...we can read the same thing and come to different conclusions. I wonder if those who saw it as suggesting the lads would get back together are readers who want [and need?] happy endings?
Well thank you so much! That's a lovely thing to say.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 10:06 pm (UTC)I found this commment particularly interesting To me, a story doesn’t stop at the end of the page and for every story I’ve written I’ve always had ideas on what happened afterwards. I like to leave things open, not only for myself but also for the reader to ponder.....probably because I don't think I've ever heard a writer say this before and I found it really touching (and admirable) to see that kind of interest and dedication to your characters. I suppose to do the story justice you'd need to care (and to justify the time and energy you've invested in the whole project). And I think if a story is going to work for me, if it's going to become a favourite and something special for me, then it's got to be partly because the author has managed to demonstrate that kind of commitment to their project, that they care about the characters and if they care about what happens to them beyond the story then that's even better!
And the song title? Despite never having heard of it before (or understanding the references) I loved the title and it was actually one of the things which attracted me to the story in the first place.
And you mentioned not wanting to repeat a familiar story-line or do a subject to death and I can really, really understand that as certain themes do tend to come up again and again in Pros, but one of the reasons I really liked your story and it retained my interest was because it was different!
It's late here and I'm sure I'll think of thousands of things to say when I go to bed so I may well add more at a later stage but in the meantime thanks very much for sharing some of your writing history!
no subject
Date: 2009-07-31 01:58 am (UTC)Thank you. I do become a bit caught up with my characters but for me, that's the only way to really understand their motivations and project their actions. I need to have a firm understanding of them as a whole, their past and present. This is not only true of the main characters such as Bodie and Doyle. I often create 'histories' for want of a better word, for peripheral characters such as Murphy [I like Murphy] and any OCs I use. When I finish writing a story, it's just a natural progression to continue the story in my head and work out a future for the characters, major and often minor. I can't help it... As I said in another comment, I used to write long series of stories each following on from the previous and I guess I still do this subconsciously. I have no idea if other writers do this? Anyone want to comment?
no subject
Date: 2009-07-31 04:39 am (UTC)All the time. I didn't know writers didn't? It's like having a dinner party; you might come in the middle, end, or beginning; conversations and arguments that start there will continue on long after your guests have left. But I'm a filmmaker as well as a writer; I fall firmly in the realm of the active voyeur so I'm conscious of it. I always want to know what happens next though.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2009-07-31 07:04 am (UTC)That’s what separates them from all others, from reality, from our own life.
That’s what (we’re) I’m here for.
That’s the reason why such a story is very disturbing.
It’s perfectly written, very thrilling and heartbreaking – no doubt! And you read it and you think about it – a lot!
But you don’t love it.
What is so disturbing? Well not only that Bodie has to deal with AIDS, - that would be enough for one story - it’s everything...
The way they separate at first, the way they drift apart over the years, Bodie still loves Ray(Bodie couldn’t stop the grin that suddenly spread across his face any more than he could stop the sun from rising/ It might only have been two weeks, but they had been the happiest in Bodie’s lifetime), Ray treats Bodie like
shit‘some’ old colleague... It’s the way Cowley and Stuart treat him, and the way his personal life is – EVERYTHING is desperate for Bodie!But that’s no problem, as I said it’s heartbreaking – and sometimes you need that!
It’s nonetheless a story you CAN be proud of! And I’m glad that I’ve read it(even twice!) – but it’s for sure no story I put at my bed table to read it again and again...
I just wonder... You said that you think that this is your best story...
That desire is probably as old as men are creating something that is ‘more than food’ – to produce something 'valuable'. And since then it isn’t much worth to make people laugh.
You said that you want the reader to ‘feel something’ (sorry I don’t find you right words – I really should go to work right now...), but with ‘feeling’ you seem to mean ‘suffering’.
But laughter, happiness and contentment are feelings as well! Who knows how much worth a feeling is?
(There are often those interviews in TV, with actors and directors after a great success with a funny/romantic movie – and all they want to do is talk about their older sombre oeuvre...)
You can shrug... mainstream... But I repeat myself – ‘who knows how much worth a feeling is?’
What I mean is just, that I don’t think that your other stories are worse. You maybe see some holes that the reader doesn’t see... – but a story can be good without involving the main problems of the world...
no subject
Date: 2009-07-31 07:47 am (UTC)By this, I mean I felt it was my best Pros story when I wrote it because I felt it was more original that the previous four. Also, and I'm not sure I can put this into words, the story flowed well for me. I wrote it in virtually one sitting and I was happy with it technically. I can't quite explain it, sorry, but I felt it was well rounded, deep, realistic, and hopefully would provoke an emotional response from readers.
I agree totally, in fact in some of the fandoms where I have written I would class some of my comedies as being my best work. Not just because they make people laugh, but the total package of the story, how it flows, connects, what it highlights, the 'cleverness' of it, so many things really. In other fandoms I'd choose what I call 'feel good' stories that leave the reader with a warm fuzzy feeling but are often quite deep in terms of character exploration. I'm thinking of some actual stories that I have written, but won't mention the titles because unless you are familiar with the fandoms they may not mean as much to you and some are parts of series. However if you are REALLY keen I will point you to some.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-31 07:55 am (UTC)"By this, I mean I felt it was my best Pros story when I wrote it because I felt it was more original that the previous four. Also, and I'm not sure I can put this into words, the story flowed well for me. I wrote it in virtually one sitting and I was happy with it technically. I can't quite explain it, sorry, but I felt it was well rounded, deep, realistic, and hopefully would provoke an emotional response from readers."
Oh! THAT is something I can understand very well!
(But I'm not yet ready to read in other fandoms.)
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2009-07-31 11:53 am (UTC)That’s what separates them from all others, from reality, from our own life.
That’s what (we’re) I’m here for.' I totally agree!
You have exactly described my response to this fic.
But from an artistic point of view, there should not be any restriction on authors exploring other paths their lives may take.
And here, Bodie loves Doyle, and has shown his love by letting Doyle go and have what was best for him (family life), and he (Bodie) is able to draw some satisfaction from that. A story of unrequited love, maybe.
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2009-07-31 10:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-01 09:50 am (UTC)Yes, I can stop reading but I only usually do that if the grammar or vocabulary are unacceptable and nobody, more's the pity, warns for those!!
*lol* I know your pain!
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2009-08-01 10:34 am (UTC)I have bought novels and got some unexpected surprises. The one that springs to mind is Terry Goodkind's 'Wizards First Rule'. I was expecting a fantasy and nothing on the cover suggested it was anything other than that. This was back when it was first released in the early 90s. I seem to recall my copy likened it to Tolkein and the Shannara books. About three quarters of the way through the hero is taken captive and what follows is one of the worse sexual-torture scenes I have ever read! The wicked sorceress takes to the hero with a magical cattle prod type device and...well...lets just say it makes fanfic B/D S/M look like a tupperware party.
I checked on Amazon to make sure I had the title right since it's years since I read this book and noticed one of the first editorial reviews states: "The inclusion of graphic scenes of sado-eroticism, though integral to the story, may deter purchase by some libraries." Oh yes!
I question that the scenes were integral to the story, there were other ways the writer could have achieved the same results, but that's not the point. There was no warning whatsoever this sort of thing was coming. I might add I had a couple of friends who also read in the fantasy genre who were equally as surprised by the scenes. In fairness to the novel, not all of them objected to the scenes, in fact one positively enjoyed them BUT, they were not what you'd expect from a fantasy novel back then.
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2009-08-01 07:04 am (UTC)- the ending: unfortunately, I don’t recall what I thought when I first read the story, so I’m probably influenced by your comments, in which you gave away your intent *g*, but yeah, I thought it worked to give Bodie some optimism about the future at the end and I don’t think it required the sequel.
- realism: can be overrated, IMO. I don’t mean that we should go about cheerfully breaking the laws of physics, or doing impossible things with the human anatomy *g*, and I’m a dedicated researcher myself, to the point where I have to make myself stop and get on with the writing part! But the ideas that come to us can be put into words in many different ways - what makes one particular version of a story more ‘real’ than another? Struggling (as usual!) to find the right way to say this, I stumbled upon this blog (http://measureformeasure.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/22/the-ear-of-the-beholder/?ref=opinion) which I think sums it up perfectly.
- exploring beyond the story: I do this too – at least I always have an idea about how the characters got to the beginning, and where they are headed beyond the end. I’ve only written one true sequel, and that was because a new idea presented itself and for a couple of reasons it made sense to have it play out immediately after the first story. But both stories are complete in themselves. I have to say that I’m not keen on serial vignettes, mostly because I prefer a discernable beginning, middle and end!
- other characters: oh, I agree *g*. I’m very fond of a couple of mine and I’d like to bring them back one day.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-01 11:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-01 12:57 pm (UTC)I hope I am following what you mean here...I do agree that 'reality' can be different for each person. Hence, some readers saw their own version of 'reality' when they interpreted the ending of Greatest Song as meaning Bodie and Doyle would get back together. I attempted to show the other 'realities' in the sequel by touching on the fate of Doyle's wife and family. I guess there are many possible ending [or postscripts] to the story. They can all be 'real' as long as they are 'realistic' in the context of what has taken place before hand. That's what I strive for, what I mean by 'realism - that what I write makes sense within its context. Does that make sense?
Read the Blog entry, but I must admit that she lost me. I don't think I quite understand what she's saying.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-01 01:40 pm (UTC)I loved this bit:
But in the space where truth and fact diverge, a larger question arises: if the facts don’t lead us to meaning, what does? Perhaps a willingness to live with questions, not answers
Yes! There's nothing more boring than having all the answers or thinking you have all the answers......I much prefer questions and questions which make me ask even more questions.....
And I love this bit, too:
I should approach my writing as if I am meeting someone for the first time, and have no idea what he will say or what kind of mood he is in. If you already know entirely what you want to say, and want to document an “honest” rehash of what happened and why, then I still maintain that you are better off taking up jurisprudence.
...which reminds me of something Helen Raven once said (and apologies for any repetition, I do repeat myself but hopefully to new listeners): that she wondered where the(her) characters were going to take her tonight?. I imagine that the process of writing - when it's not hard slog - can be an incredible adventure.