The Reading Room - feedback, please

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

Sorry to be boring, but I feel the need to consult. So while there's lots of people here at CI5hq, I'd be very grateful for opinions on the Reading Room, and in particular:
 

(1) Would it be a good thing for the Reading Room to be fortnightly or even monthly, instead of weekly?
I’m sorry to say that it’s going to have to be fortnightly for a while, anyway, because I have massive work deadlines at the end of May.

 

(2) Recent fic and current writers.
We are limited in the fics we can discuss by needing to avoid work by writers who are in or aware of this comm, because they are likely to be sensitive about candid comments (at least, that’s how I see it). And there are such superb writers in our midst, with wonderful bodies of work already published and hopefully more to come, and we’re missing out. Now someone much cleverer than me has independently suggested what could well be the solution to this, viz.:

 

A writer to volunteer some of their own (online) fic/s for the Reading Room and discuss and/or answer questions about the fic/s and the process of writing. 

 

Does anyone else think that would be a good idea? Well, obviously it’s a good idea, what I really mean is, is anyone likely to be up for it?  Put natural modesty aside for a moment, and think how satisfying it would be to have the opportunity to explain the how, when and why of your creations, your inspirations and aims, to a sympathetic audience.

Comments

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Not boring at all!

1) I'm happy with a weekly format actually, maybe you could just ask for volunteers ahead of time for the weeks you're going to be busy etc? No reason why you can't book ahead? In fact you could even do this normally, perhaps - at the beginning of the month say, ask for reccers for each week. People might be more likely to volunteer with more notice? (Or not, but it's worth trying, maybe.) If it's fortnightly or monthly I'm more likely to forget all about it tbh...

2) Erm, I didn't realise you were limiting the fics that could be discussed to those by authors not currently clearly visible - if nothing else then I think there are alot more people lurking than you know, and alot of people on lj who turn out to be older writers, perhaps not obviously in Pros lj-land, but still reading etc. For example, Elizabeth Holden of last week's rec is on lj and a member of CI5hq! *g* If you're really worried, and someone volunteers a story where we know the author is on lj, then you could always drop them a quick line to say that their story's been suggested, and would they object. But stories posted to lj and the archives are public, so writers can't expect everyone to stay quiet about them, surely - and the flip side of enjoying positive feedback because we've written for the public is that other people might be critical. And surely we all know that someone, somewhere is going to have a criticism of something in our stories!

That said, sure, nice idea about asking writers in... *g* Not sure how well I'd do at it, but I'd be happy to give it a go, and I wouldn't mind if the audience wasn't sympathetic! Can't imagine I'd volunteer as such, cos it would be a bit like blowing your own trumpet (as you say about the modesty thing *g*) - and I have a feeling I wouldn't be the only person thinking that way, so it might be an idea to have writers-by-request rather than volunteering? You know, someone could volunteer a particular writer, check with them to see if they're up for it any particular week, and then have the volunteer explain why they chose them and sort of hand it over to the author for questions...?

And if you had enough of those to see you through your busy May and into June, then you'd be laughing - there's certainly alot of current writers around! *g*

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

Thank you very much.

(1) The idea of weekly was indeed to have a regular routine and a momentum. Fortnightly or monthly would be much more difficult to engage with. I just have the sense that doing this every week is too much, certainly it seems to be too often for people to be ready with fics to volunteer.
In terms of notice, given that RR is on every week, there is nothing to stop anyone now thinking ahead to a fic and a week that suits them and letting me know, but it doesn't seem to happen.
It's not much work for me, sure. Probably the most time-consuming part is hovering around the comm all the time on Tuesday-Wednesday checking to see if a rec has come in after I've posted to request one, then zooming off to skim read it at whatever hour.

(2) It's not even an unwritten rule, just my own personal concern, because there are writers I would like to rec but it seemed too delicate, and I assumed others felt the same. Now you tell me I've unwittingly done it anyway, eep (grovels to Elizabeth Holden). You are right, of course, no reason not to consider discussing an author who is on lj, subject to checking that it is okay with them first. Why didn't I think of that? Well, possibly because one can't really predict the course a discussion will take, and the author may end up feeling upset about something... It just seemed simpler to avoid the issue and the fics we've had so far have tended to be older ones.

Glad you liked the idea about authors discussing their own work and especially that you would be willing given the right sort of persuasion. *eg*
I'm sure you're right, people are too engagingly modest to nominate themselves. It would need to be a 'guest author by invitation'.

[jj-minerva.livejournal.com]

Fortnightly sounds good because sometimes RL gets in the way and it takes longer to read a story, think about it and then think of something to say about it [at least for me]

Regarding writers suggesting their own work for discussion, I come from a fandom group where this was quite common. Writers would submit their story or WIP and then discuss with the readers what they were trying to achieve with the story and whether they had managed to do that. Readers could also ask questions and I found this useful because it would tell me when something wasn't getting across. The discussion could get lively but generally everyone was polite and well behaved.

It certainly wasn't a case of blowing your own trumpet because you were inviting both positive and negative comments and accepting them in the spirit they were offered. So rather than saying 'Look what I've done!' it was more a case of 'How can I improve on what I've done?' if you see what I mean.

I'd be happy to take part in something like this if you decide to go ahead with it.

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

Now that's interesting. Without wanting to be exclusive at all, I was thinking in terms of an author talking about their story or body of work that is already known, maybe published months or years ago.

But I *do* like the idea that an author could present a brand new story (bonus! new fic!) or a WIP and get feedback on it.

[nakeisha.livejournal.com]

1. I personally would have thought a month or fortnightly would be a great idea. I think you'd get more people participating with a longer time frame.

2. I have to say I'm really pleased to hear that writers who are on the comm/aware of it are pretty much excluded from their stories being suggested.

However, I also do think that asking writers if they'd like to suggest their own work is a good compromise.

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

Thanks for your comment.

It now looks as though there is still a lot of support for weekly. If we can just arrange it so that recs are scheduled a in advance, then it would be possible to participate fortnightly or whatever suits you, with time to read the fic in advance.

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

(1) Would it be a good thing for the Reading Room to be fortnightly or even monthly, instead of weekly?
I’m sorry to say that it’s going to have to be fortnightly for a while, anyway, because I have massive work deadlines at the end of May.

I like weekly. Not everyone can participate every week -- I've had RL interfere for the last three discussions, but now I've got breathing room again. I think that's probably how it will be for most of us. Not everyone -- even you! - will be able to be part of every discussion.

(2) Recent fic and current writers.
We are limited in the fics we can discuss by needing to avoid work by writers who are in or aware of this comm, because they are likely to be sensitive about candid comments (at least, that’s how I see it).

I really don't think this should be a concern. Whether the author is present or not, there should be no personal attack or personal comments. The authors are not up for discussion, only the work. And as far as work goes...if you've got the stomach to put your work out for public perusal, then you need to have the stomach to listen to it discussed and analyzed. And if you don't...stay clear of the discussion.

Sorry if that sounds harsh.

And there are such superb writers in our midst, with wonderful bodies of work already published and hopefully more to come, and we’re missing out. Now someone much cleverer than me has independently suggested what could well be the solution to this, viz.:

Again, I don't think this needs to be a concern. As BSL points out, we have no idea who is lurking and watching these discussions, so it would be impossible to guard against potential wounded authorial feelings even if we wanted to.



A writer to volunteer some of their own (online) fic/s for the Reading Room and discuss and/or answer questions about the fic/s and the process of writing.

I guess an author could do this. The possibility is that no one would find their fic interesting enough to discuss! Personally, I'd find that more depressing than people tearing my work apart. *g* Nothing is worse than apathy!



Does anyone else think that would be a good idea? Well, obviously it’s a good idea, what I really mean is, is anyone likely to be up for it? Put natural modesty aside for a moment, and think how satisfying it would be to have the opportunity to explain the how, when and why of your creations, your inspirations and aims, to a sympathetic audience.

I've been through these kinds of discussions, and yes, they can be very satisfying. But the idea that the discussion would be limited to a "sympathetic audience" right there, frankly, puts a damper on discussion.

Again, not that I think anyone should be deliberately hurtful or uncivil in their comments, just that not every author embraces or enjoys critical analysis.

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

Another vote for 'stay weekly' then. Good.

Interesting point that once a work has been 'published', the author should be prepared for 'public' perusal and discussion.

"Nothing is worse than apathy!" That would be the thing that would worry me (not that I count myself among potential guest authors, or even authors) -what if I post about my own work and no one responds? That would be depressing. But somehow I think unlikely.

By 'sympathetic' I don't mean sycophantic, just (hopefully) constructive and sympathetic also in the sense that we've faced some of the same challenges etc in writing Pros fic.

Another thought about going fortnight

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

The problem with changing to fortnight is I think there's a great chance that discussion will dwindle as people lose track of whether it's the discussion week or not. And as they miss discussions or get the wrong week, they'll start to lose interest and forget the discussions altogether. That would be my concern (as someone who tends to lose track of time.

Has discussion dwindled? Because I would put it down to seasonal, if so. Spring fever. Some months (summer and December) will just naturally be leaner for discussion.

Also some stories are going to generate more discussion than others.

Re: Another thought about going fortnight

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

And as far as work goes...if you've got the stomach to put your work out for public perusal, then you need to have the stomach to listen to it discussed and analyzed. And if you don't...stay clear of the discussion. Not harsh at all. I know I haven't always found time to particpate, but I like the idea of it being weekly. And I'm certainly up for nominating my own fic to be evaluated and discussed. The good manners of Pros folk is sterling - don't think I've ever seen anyone flame anyone else's work, even if they didn't like it. So I think the whole thing could be an invigorating experience.

[sineala.livejournal.com]

One thing that I've seen in other fandoms, as kind of a meme, is what they call a DVD Commentary challenge, where a writer goes back to one or more of the stories they've written -- sometimes they take a poll to determine which they should do -- and essentially annotate it with their aims, discussions of particular lines, what they were trying to accomplish.

(Here's the first example of one that came to mind: Transfigurations (http://trickster.org/res/transfig_dvd.html), by resonant8. It's a Harry Potter story. For this one she even got comments from her beta, as you can see.)

I don't know if this is something people would enjoy doing, but your last point made me think of it.

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

Sounds interesting. In practice, that would be the sensible thing for an author to do - annotate the fic, with the extent of annotations depending on the author.

Thanks very much.

[lysimache.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, I'd be sad to see it move from weekly. I haven't commented in all of the discussions (to be honest, I've been going by the "if you don't have anything nice to say" rule, because v. few of the stories discussed have been ones I really like, and sometimes I've just been busy), but I've enjoyed reading all of them immensely.

I think it might help a *lot* to have the fics for the month set out in advance. There could be a signup post for the next couple of months with a helpful reminding chart? (Someone more clever than I could definitely set an auto-mailer to remind the reccers when it's their week; I could do that if I had to, I suppose.) Then we could include a few longer stories as well, because people would have advance notice to (re)read them! (Another reason I haven't commented much is I just don't, well, like short stories in general.)

If you're concerned about the time you need to personally spend away from the discussion, I'm sure there's people willing to help out! Has it really needed much moderation, if we had a schedule set up a month or two in advance?

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

I think you've just explained clearly what others have said that hadn't really got through to me - viz. set up a schedule a month or so ahead, that way there is time to read longer fics (which is one of the main objections to weekly posting). Well, before I didn't know if the Reading Room would last more than one month *vbg*

'Someone more clever than I could set an auto-mailer to remind the reccers when it's their week' Cleverer than me too, but I'm sure there's a practical solution that wouldn't be beyond my limited technical ability.

And it's great to know that you are enjoying the Reading Room without commenting. I hope there are some more who view it the same way - it's nice to know you're interested.

[msmoat.livejournal.com]

I probably shouldn't give feedback, considering I've never participated. But I like the idea of a weekly read/discussion--I just haven't any time in my life just now. Like BSL suggested, getting people signed up some weeks in advance would be good. Maybe at the end of each month have a sign-up for the following month. People could sign up without even having to have a story already in mind--although knowing that a particular story will be discussed during a particular week in June might well mean that I'd find a way to fit in the reading ahead-of-time. There are some stories I'd love to discuss, but fitting in the reading when I'm surprised each week by the choice can be difficult.

Oh, and the author thing. First, I know how touchy it is to discuss stories candidly when you know the author is there as well. It really can inhibit discussion. It might not even be that the author is sensitive--it's that the people commenting are too aware that the author is there. But there's no way around that in fandom, where the consumers are also the producers. I think you just go with whatever stories people want to discuss and hope for the best.

On the other hand, I do like the notion of an author interview now and again. *g* It would be fun to ask questions of an author about this scene or that--and fun for the author as well. I do see that kind of discussion being different than the usual that you have, however.

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

Thanks very much for commenting.

'It might not even be that the author is sensitive--it's that the people commenting are too aware that the author is there.' Absolutely, I wasn't trying to imply that authors are all delicate little flowers, but that people commenting would feel constrained just in case the author was offended.

If the author is directly involved and to some extent leading the discussion, that isn't such a problem. I'm glad you like the idea.

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

Consultation is great, so thank you!

(1) Would it be a good thing for the Reading Room to be fortnightly or even monthly, instead of weekly?
I like weekly, and I think the "fade off" effect will worsen if you go beyond fortnightly. But you're running the show. Simply tell people that the next call for contributions will be in 2 weeks time if you want to slow it down.

(2) Recent fic and current writers.
We've already discussed fics by current writers - in fact, I was thinking about a BSL one for a future rec. And as others have said, who knows who is lurking. I guess you could have an "opt-out" sentence in your fic notification so that the writer has an opportunity to request that the rec be changed. There are a handful of current Pros writers who have been hurt by criticism in the past who would not want to know that their story was the subject of pointed discussion. I'm offering that option while feeling uncomfortable with it - any writer who puts their story out for public reading must realise that people have the right to react to it, and discuss it.

As a corollary to the above, I feel strongly that the only contribution authors should make to a discussion of their work is to clarify points of fact, preferably indirectly through a third party.

A writer to volunteer some of their own (online) fic/s for the Reading Room and discuss and/or answer questions about the fic/s and the process of writing.

Sorry, no. This comes down to the question of whether we are reader focused (yes!) or author focused (no!). Mixing the two is a recipe for disaster. IMHO.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Sorry, no. This comes down to the question of whether we are reader focused (yes!) or author focused (no!). Mixing the two is a recipe for disaster. IMHO.
I'm curious about this! I think I'd actually feel more constrained knowing that an author was reading what I said about their story, but wasn't invited to respond/clarify/make their own comments to be honest.

I think that authors have to go into it with their eyes open - but the readers do too, and a reminder that it's about the story not the person, that anything written is just individual opinions and therefore no one should take offence - you know, as if we're all grown ups. *g* (Which I know we're not, always!) I do think we should go from the starting point that anyone who volunteers/is happy to be volunteered realises that they can't get upset about what's said though.

But then that's why I think it would be better to have writers recced than to volunteer their own work too - at least one person would presumably have found something worthwhile in a story, then! *g*

[snailbones.livejournal.com]

I think it's probably easier to keep up momentum if it's weekly, but I honestly don't mind one way or another. I'm loving doing it, and I'll take whatever I can get. *g*

I'm personally very wary of commenting negatively on stories that I dislike, whether the author is likely to be around or not, but I agree with what msmoat says - you probably just have to go for it and hope for the best. I hate the thought of anyone being desperately upset/offended by criticism, but with authors having more than one online identity it almost impossible to be sure it's not going to happen at some point. I love the idea of and interview-type discussion with an author - or the annotated story idea, which I've seen done a few times and has always been fascinating.

Sorry - I've got into ramble-mode *g* I'll crawl back under my blankie and hush up.

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

(Peeps under the blankie - hello, are you still in there?)

Thanks for commenting, and so favourably.

"I love the idea of an interview-type discussion with an author - or the annotated story idea" - yes, both sound great - but how to make it work in practice, does one ask for one form or the other, or leave it to the author? (muses)

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'm good with weekly. I think a little head room for a long story would be good because now it's easier to toss out a story that fairly short. It's harder to read 300K in two days!

As for reccing only stories that the reccer likes, I thought that it was already said by jaycat that one doesn't have to do a story that one likes. That the other side of the coin was welcome also. Hence this week's discussion. Otherwise, if the mod puts in a rule that only positive responses and positive recs are allowed, I'd of course, abide by the rules.

Any of my stories are up for grabs if anybody cares to rec one. They're in a public forum. I've birthed the babies and sent the out into the cruel world to survive on their own. Or not. *bg* The discussion can be negative or positive, from anybody about any part of the story. And I will most likely not comment because I feel it's not my place to enter a discussion about one of my own stories. I'll leave that to the readers. Their POV of something I've written is separate from mine and any motivations I might have had writing a story. The readers are entitled to their opinions, for better or worse, and whether or not I think it's right or fair.

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

As for reccing only stories that the reccer likes, I thought that it was already said by jaycat that one doesn't have to do a story that one likes. That the other side of the coin was welcome also. Hence this week's discussion. Otherwise, if the mod puts in a rule that only positive responses and positive recs are allowed, I'd of course, abide by the rules.

There are all kinds of reasons for reccing, I agree! Sometimes not liking a story will lead to a better discussion!

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

Here's another vote for weekly discussion, unless it's a really long story in which case two weeks might be better.

I have another question: is it necessary for the person who recs the story to lead the discussion and answer every or most posts? This seems like a lot of responsibility and some people may shy away from rec'ing a story because of it (though it's probably just me! :)).

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

I have another question: is it necessary for the person who recs the story to lead the discussion and answer every or most posts? This seems like a lot of responsibility and some people may shy away from rec'ing a story because of it (though it's probably just me! :)).

I think it just sort of evolved that way. I'm pretty sure whether the story reccer kept commenting or not, the discussion would roll along. Everyone quickly begins commenting on everyone else's comments and it just sort of snowballs.

[mab-browne.livejournal.com]

I like the fact that there is candid discussion of stories in Pros, although I know that it can be problematical for both writers and readers. In the unlikely event that anyone wanted to discuss mine, I could cope with featuring, although I personally would rather bow out and look at comments *after* the event. *g* I'm a fast reader so I don't mind weekly chats, although I know that it can be tricky to organise.

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

Thanks for your comment.

"I'm a fast reader so I don't mind weekly chats, although I know that it can be tricky to organise." The only difficulty seems to be to get people to volunteer fic weekly. As to length, initially I was thinking of short-middle length fics, but then we had Jane's 'Labyrinth'... Hopefully if we can get fics scheduled in advance there will be more time to read the longer ones.

[saintvic.livejournal.com]

Well I can see by the comments that most people are going the other way but in response to question 1 I would prefer a fortnight. I quite regularly have wanted to join in but by the time I have read the story there are many many comments and discussions already done and I have little to add at that point. But that is my RL situation and a very personal rather than a reasoned response. I imagine it might be the same in a fortnight as well if you weren't able to join in straightaway. So, in fact, this comment adds nothing of use.

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

Nice to hear from you anyway. : )

[smirra.livejournal.com]

1) Fortnightly would be ok with me. That way there would be more time to participate.

2) I would love to discuss to the writers although I second the comments of it being tricky or too defferent things in one place. It's maybe an idea there should be done in a seperate discussion.
That said I think it's likely that some of the authors will find the discussion. Also discussions about fics start spontaneously everywhere, so who post their work in public should be prepared to see it discussed.

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

Thanks for your comment - another vote for fortnightly - I must do a count, but I am quite surprised how many still opt for weekly (drats).

The idea of writers discussing their work maybe should be in a different forum. That's something else to discuss *vbg*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Out of curiosity, if anyone comes back to read this, for the people who've said they'd prefer it fortnightly - could they not just join in every two weeks themselves, rather than every week? Or is it that you need two weeks to read a story, rather than don't have enough time to join in each week? In which case the longer-term planning could help with that, rather than making the discussions more sporadic?

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

Yes, that seems to be the best solution. Because people probably won't come back and read this, I will do another post to recap on what's been commented.

But, *headdesk*, was trying to get some space for RL work, and now it looks like I have to spend the next week or so scheduling a whole month's worth of RR activities. *weak grin*

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

"(1) The idea of weekly was indeed to have a regular routine and a momentum."
Yes, I would like to keep it weekly, even if it's not possible to join each time.

(2) I really wasn't aware of a rule 'to avoid work by writers who are in or aware of this comm'. That would be a pity!
I would love it if the writer would join the discussion!
"A writer to volunteer some of their own (online) fic/s..."
Yes for that! But I could also imagine a team of the one who recs the story and the author! :-)

The question is if we 'dare' to say something negative about a story when the author is on our friends list...
And if - can authors handle that?

Would be worth trying, I think! :-)

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

Thanks for commenting on this, another vote for weekly too!

'But I could also imagine a team of the one who recs the story and the author!'
Since probably authors are too modest to volunteer themselves, probably a 'team' will be necessary anyway, as one person will have to nominate the author, and the author agree to take part. How they work it then would perhaps evolve from the author giving their agreement.

So let me see if I understand

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

At some point -- when everyone has had a turn to rec something -- I wanted to rec Helen Raven's The Cook and The Warehousman. It's pretty long. 910K. So it's one of those stories that I think people would maybe need a little time on?

How would we handle the rec and the timing of the discussion?

Re: So let me see if I understand

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I wanted to rec Helen Raven's The Cook and The Warehousman.
Ha - great minds and all that! I've just re-read that and was thinking about reccing it. Good choice. *g*