The Reading Room - "Never Let Me Down" part 2

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

There has been such an enthusiastic response to the post started by kiwisue that I've opened this new post to make it easier to continue the discussion on "'Never Let Me Down".  

Comments

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Carrying on from the other thread then (cheers Jaycat!)...

I thought the pub scene was actually pretty believable and quite tastefully described.
I actually thought so too, I thought it was quite carefully done. Bodie didn't notice anything for ages - suggesting that the people there were discreet, and even then only because Doyle actually pointed it out. In 1985 there were at least two well-known gay pubs in Manchester, and although I don't think either had a beer garden, I don't see why a pub in London mightn't have. And Doyle did explain that he didn't go there very often (although he knew the barman by name!) and was careful about it all.

(And I might be wrong but I think homosexuality became legal - that is in private - in the late 60s).
It was 1967 - "Sexual Offences Act came into force in England and Wales and decriminalised homosexual acts between two men over 21 years of age and ‘in private.’" (Stonewall.org.uk) Hmmn - it wasn't decriminalised in Scotland until 1981! But I gather the key words there were in private (which is emphasised in alot of Pros fic, actually!) and it wasn't until 1997 that "GCHQ relaxed its regulations relating to the employment of gays and lesbians. Subsequently M16 also changed its policy, but M15 refused to change." I'd like to see what those pre-1997 laws actually were though...

I don't think that law about "in private" has changed - but there was a new law not long ago making it illegal for heterosexual couples to have sex in a public place, and I'd guess that's where it was sort of "equalised" and perhaps the definition of a "public place" made so that a rented room in a hotel is no longer considered public. I'd hope!

Hmmn, other interesting dates:

In 1991 - "Lesbian & Gay Police Association (LAGPA, later the Gay Police Association GPA) formed."
In 2000 the "Government lifts the ban on lesbian and gay men serving in the armed forces." (ibid)
In 2005 "Government amends the Equality Bill, including a clause to make it illegal to discriminate against lesbians and gay men in the provision of goods and services – from NHS care through to hotels and restaurants."

Getting too carried away with this I know, but I'm always shocked at how long it took. There's various links to pages about police harassment of gay blokes in the 1980s, so I really can't see B/D as being "out" - but then they're neither of them lacking in confidence, and I can imagine them now and then going somewhere "discreet" - worst came to the worst they could always claim they were on a case... *g*

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

[I've actually said a tiny bit more on this in the previous thread before I realised this was here].

Bodie didn't notice anything for ages - suggesting that the people there were discreet,

Good point, I'd forgotten that bit.

I don't think that law about "in private" has changed - but there was a new law not long ago making it illegal for heterosexual couples to have sex in a public place,

I'd always assumed heteros couldn't have sex legally in public, too. What a bummer......if only I'd known.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Heeeeeeee!

law/privacy/pubs

[(Anonymous)]

Homosexuality in private was decriminalised in 1967. The Wolfenden Committee reviewed the law in 1959, but thought it would take a decade for the public to adjust to the idea.

My understanding is that “in private” could be interpreted as in a space over which you had control (so a hotel was not private, and sex there potentially criminal). Two men having sex in the presence of a third party was decriminalised as a result of a European Court of Human Rights judgement in 2000 (A.D.T. v. UK) but a friend who’s a legal bod/activist says it actually took a while to come into effect here – I can check with him, if anybody's really curious. Legal costs were queried by the rather fabulous Evan Harris here
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written_answers/2000/nov/16/adt-v-uk

It’s ages (5 years or so) since I’ve been to the King William IV, but I remember it being very low key. As I recall, there’s a pretty garden out the back. The pub’s own website
http://www.kw4.co.uk/history.html
says “The Willie turned discreetly gay in the late 1930s” and according to some reviews here
http://www.beerintheevening.com/pubs/s/10/100/King_William_IV/Hampstead
it’s been a gay pub for 40 years. If it’s anything like it was 5 years ago, I recommend it highly. There’s a nice picture here
http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/23737/

Laura (unnaturalblonde on the email list)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yes, it’s from Bodie’s p.o.v. but we get no real view of Doyle...There is nothing in the story to tell me why these guys should even trust each other as partners, let alone fancy each other physically or regard each other as close friends. (Moth2fic)

Yes, and it frustrated me no end, because we know our lads well enough (more on that below) to be able to see signs of all those things from just tiny gestures in a fic... Not for the reasons you gave though, but because I want to know that the author is seeing them in that (partner/trusting etc) relationship well enough to take them on to the next step - to make me believe in her transition from the eps to fanfic, cos then I can believe in the rest of what she tells me too. I can trust that the fic isn't suddenly going to turn into something I don't know. Shoshanna still did this, I thought, but I felt a bit on the edge about it, I'd've liked a little more - particularly about the way Bodie saw Doyle, Bodie's impressions and belief in him.

I’m very ‘multi-fandom’ in my reading and I trust authors to remember that not all their readers will be as familiar with canon as they are. In this case, I do know the canon quite well but if I hadn’t I’d have been truly confused.
Ah, this interests me, because you see - quite honestly - I'm not too fussed about pleasing multi-fandom readers who don't know enough canon to understand fanfic... *ducks quickly and a long way down* *g* But this is different ways of seeing fandom, which is a whole 'nother interesting thing...

I have absolutely no interest in "fandom" as a whole, as a movement or occurrence on its own. (Okay, not no interest, but...) The reason I'm here is purely and simply for Bodie/Doyle. I will read and watch and write and think about and adore the lads until the cows come home and I get bored - and I'm here "in Pros fandom" to talk and hang with other people who understand exactly that, who want to do exactly the same thing. That's one of the things that attracted me to fandom and lj, that the people I'm talking to know what I'm talking about! I can make a joke about leaning on things, and it can be as subtle as I like and I know that there are people out there picturing Doyle draped over the side of a car, and the way Bodie's looking at him, and the glint in his eye - all of that because I know that we know each other.

If someone doesn't know B/D well enough to understand that, then they're not the people I'm here to interact with in the first place - I don't care whether they "get" my fic or my lj or whatever. I might be friendly with them for other off-shoot reasons, but I still won't cater my Pros tastes to fit them in. I might encourage them to watch the eps, and then to read the fic (not the other way around) but if they still don't get my B/D then I see no need to... there's no need for any kind of exchange between us about B/D. I won't expect her to enjoy any of my fic - and by the same token she shouldn't expect me to cater for her lack of knowledge if she reads that fic anyway.

It's always puzzled me that people come into fandom having never seen the series its based on - and perhaps stay in fandom and write for it, having never seen the eps. If you've never seen the eps, then whatever you're seeing in it isn't what I'm seeing in it, and... we're in different fandoms.

So... it didn't bother me that the author of NLMD didn't describe each character in depth, or explain what CI5 did or whatever, because she was writing for people who already knew (I know Moth2fic acknowledged this) - what I'd've liked to read, for my own enjoyment, was a bit more detail about the lads and their pre-Doyle's-pass relationship, something to reassure me that we're in the same place with them and I'm not going to be surprised later and because I like reading about their relationship like that. The casual movement between them - looking at each other because they've both found the same thing funny at the same time - that shows us they know and trust each other well enough to move on.

My goodness I'm rambling, I'd better go away and have some dinner... *g*

[squeeful.livejournal.com]

Oi, being multifandom doesn't mean we don't know our canon. I can keep more than one universe in my head.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Lol - never said it did! And the person I was responding to knew her canon too, and said so. I was responding to the question of whether a fic needs to explain things to people who don't know their canon, because they're not specifically (in this case) Pros fans...

I love that I can read fic and get a whole world of stuff from a phrase - picture things so much more deeply, see layers in things. If writers are explaining those things instead to people who don't know the canon - it'd take alot of my enjoyment way, because it'd lose that lovely shared shorthand...

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

I've only ever read in one fandom (The Sentinel) where I have never seen any eps whatsoever but I have to say that the best writers in that fandom have given me a complex detailed view of the people involved - all the people, not just the main characters. Normally, I know the book, film or series first, and then find the fanfic - but despite loving the characters as portrayed on the screen I still want writers to use all the 'normal' writing techniques to make me see/understand the characters, not just to rely on what I know. After all, what they 'see' in the episodes might, as someone else said, be quite different from what I see, and I want to be sure we're in the same place or that I understand the place they're in - which is probably, actually, something like where you seem to be coming from? I don't think this fic achieves that, for me.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Sounds like we're just differing on this one... I could pick up Bodie and Doyle from the story without any problem, and I didn't feel as if I was stretching to see them clearly or anything (except sometimes with things like "I lit out of there" and "never would let me touch it" which were in an American twang for me) - but I still agree that I'd have liked a wee bit more description of them... not necessarily physical, but... Oh I know, a bit more evocative description! I don't need to be told "Doyle has curly hair" (and I know that's not what you're saying!) but something like "Bodie homed in on Doyle's familiar mess of curls, and started pushing through the crowd" (or, you know, a better example *g*) gives us a clue about the way Bodie relates to Doyle - that's what he sees, that's something he associates with him - familiarity, slight scruffiness, and it's also something he searched the room for and because of the depth of that familiarity found very quickly...

I gather in Sentinel it perhaps is best not to watch the eps... *ducks again*... *g*

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

I didn't have the same response as you about the lack of description or scene-setting.

But now I think about it, that might be why I enjoyed it as very 'canon' somehow, possibly because, without much description, I was seeing 'my' Pros in this plot, as I see them in the eps. There's a scene where Bodie has a can of beer after taking a shower that struck me as exactly like the famous scene in the Rest Room in 'Long Shot' ('Long Arm', 'Long Gun'? always get those titles confused), and I felt the author expected me to make that connection and thus little description was needed.
On the other hand, another scene (quoted by kiwisue, I think) where Doyle draws his knee up under his chin, although not out of character, struck me as more original.

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

I want to know that the author is seeing them in that (partner/trusting etc) relationship well enough to take them on to the next step - to make me believe in her transition from the eps to fanfic, cos then I can believe in the rest of what she tells me too. I can trust that the fic isn't suddenly going to turn into something I don't know. Shoshanna still did this, I thought, but I felt a bit on the edge about it, I'd've liked a little more - particularly about the way Bodie saw Doyle, Bodie's impressions and belief in him.

Yes. What I find is...if I trust the overall view of the lads that the author is offering, then it becomes fun to see what little additional made-up bits of info she throws in. Like...in Redemption, Bodie noting that he thought Doyle wore glasses as an affectation but then realizing that he really did use them for reading. I thought that was a great touch. Everything from The Game to dance lessons for Doyle. (Actually, I can't remember now if the dance lessons are canon or not?)

Just little things like that that might offer a unique insight into the lads that isn't in canon but that I trust because the author has convinced me in her other details.

Because I want the lads, but I want more of them, more exploration, more than what we could see on the screen.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Something else I'm bringing over from the old squished-up thread:

There's a fic out there, I think it's called "All you need is love", and the author may be M. Fae Glasgo (not sure), that deals with the premise of one of the lads falling in love, and the other agreeing to a relationship because of (platonic) love and camaraderie.
Beautifully written, but enough to bring about a serious bout of depression... (ronitr)

M. Fae has a way with words. But not really what I look for in my fan fic. *g* (jgraeme)

I adore M.Fae Glasgow - and I remember that fic too. She's done a few fics too, where one of them is in love but the other isn't... M.Fae is brilliant at that sort of thing, I think - she really gets the atmosphere and feeling of it all, and it's not comfortable, just as NLMD isn't a "comfortable" read. I think the difference for me between the two authors with this type of fic, is that M.Fae's fics seem to end, where I'm not sure Shoshanna's NLMD did - it didn't have that... feeling of having come to some sort of understanding with the world around them that lets me let go of the story happily, feeling that the characters have somehow... been told, that there's not more of their story to come? I might not always like M.Fae's endings, but I feel that they're there, and that everyone is moving on to the next story now...

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

I might not always like M.Fae's endings, but I feel that they're there, and that everyone is moving on to the next story now...

Now that's interesting. You're saying that you prefer that in a story?

I'm not sure if I have a preference -- well, actually I do. I prefer that the lads be alive and happy at the end of whatever the story is. *g* But barring THAT, I'm not sure I do.

I think of a story as capturing a moment in time. A freeze frame. When the story is well-done (what I consider well-done) the characters seem to exist independently of my reading them. (Cue the theme from the Twilight Zone.) I picture them living on between the scenes that are captured on paper, I picture their story going on after...the story ends.

That's one reason epilogs often annoy me -- outside of fandom as well, actually. I don't necessarily need to know how everyone ultimately ended up. Especially if the characters are made-up to begin with because then it begins to seem like...well, it's not biography after all.

Labels

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

I still haven’t finished this story but I wanted to bung this down before it got lost in the whole concertina-effect and apologies for any repetition.

I loved the story, I loved the voyage of discovery Bodie makes (with Doyle’s assistance) and for Doyle, too, it seems like an awakening exercise for him because I suspect it’s the first time he’s actually been in love with a man (or I get the impression it is) so I would imagine it makes the whole act of sex different for *him* - more a thing of wonder (as opposed to a purely physical need) because it’s Bodie he’s having sex with, his Bodie.

I love the way the writer traces Bodie’s feeling, his thawing towards the idea that Doyle wants him and that he, in turn, might want Doyle. I love the way he gets used to the idea - justifies it - the way he gradually convinces himself that sex with his partner is the natural corollary of their friendship.

I love the realism, the plausibility, Bodie’s confusion because I think he *would* be confused. (*I* was confused by Doyle’s insistence that it wasn’t just about sex for him when that’s all he seemed to centre on, initially – he doesn’t try and talk about it with Bodie first, which I think he might have done seeing as they were best mates etc.etc. and I don't think he even has an inkling that Bodie's feeling might mirror his, so it was an enormous risk).

Loved Bodie's confusion in this line:

And his inner, mocking voice answered, Neither's he. And he wants you

He supposed he was bisexual, now. He certainly wasn't queer, after all, but he couldn't deny that he'd turned on to Ray like a teenager.

.....which started me thinking (and made me sad for Bodie) about Bodie’s (society’s) preoccupation with labels - labels which don’t actually change who you are:

And I'm not any more of a fairy than I was last week. I'm still me, and Ray's still who he's always been.

I wondered if this was a modern, twentieth trend or have we always obsessed over labels, to a lesser or greater extent? Were we trying to place ourselves in categories hundreds of years ago or did people behave in a less fixed/constrained way, *less* hampered by social conventions (at least among the lower classes?) And, if labels are considered to be a part of social progress (most modern social developments seem to think that being hitched to the term 'progress' automatically confers upon them an air of acceptability) how does it *help* people to label themselves? Labels certainly seemed to be confusing Bodie and maybe if there weren't any he could quite happily have fallen in love with Doyle without beating himself up over it. I mean, why couldn’t Bodie and Doyle just be two friends moving on a stage from platonic love to the post-platonic stage, two friends who are falling in love? Anyway that's what *I* was thinking as I read it - I felt annoyed on Bodie's behalf - annoyed at society.....and I think I'd better go and finish it.... .

Re: Labels

[squeeful.livejournal.com]

Labeling like you're saying here came about in the late 19th century when homosexuality transitioned from something you did to something you were. It was also when the term "homosexual" was coined; there is even some fun debate among stuffily-polite Victorian academics as to whether "homosexual" referred to only men from the Latin "homo" meaning "man" or to men and women from the Greek "homo" meaning "same". For a while it was a male-only term as that's where the focus lay (and because you know lesbian sex isn't really sex, there's no penis).

Oh, people were definitely constrained by social conventions. Just about different things. Among lower classes, depends on when and where. The Victorians didn't care what you got up to, so long as it was behind your own closed doors. Public face and all that.

Note to me - re what I wrote before

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

and for Doyle, too, it seems like an awakening exercise for him because I suspect it’s the first time he’s actually been in love with a man (or I get the impression it is) so I would imagine it makes the whole act of sex different for *him* - more a thing of wonder (as opposed to a purely physical need)

Finished the story now (yesterday in fact..) and I'm not sure I would have written the above if I'd known then what I know now....perhaps I would have stressed Doyle's 'falling in love' and the 'thing of wonder' a bit less (or not at all) as I don't really know *what* the whole physical thing with Bodie actually ended up meaning for Doyle, who, in some ways was pretty faceless throughout the story. So, having read the story for a second time (after a gap of some years) my thoughts on it and what it all means are less clear now than they ever were....

[tears-of-nienna.livejournal.com]

Overall, I really liked this fic. I thought the awkward path of Bodie and Doyle's relationship felt true to them, or true to Bodie with the past that Shoshanna gave him. I do wish we'd had a bit more Doyle in there--obviously it's Bodie's perspective, but I generally think that the boys are minutely conscious of each other most of the time, and I didn't quite get that sense in this fic. Of course, this could be Bodie just not wanting to know, or not wanting to admit that he knows, what Doyle is thinking.

Brief digression into the shallow: The early sex scenes were just as awkward as they should have been, but by the end? Damn, the sex was hot. Even though the word "anus" tends to throw me out of a fic (it's something about the shape of the word--no idea why), I thought the scene was really well done.

My only real issue is a personal one. I suppose I have something of an infidelity squick, so even though there wasn't an acknowledged relationship between Bodie and Doyle, the Castleton interlude made me cringe. Knowing that it was going to throw a wrench into the whole works, that Bodie was risking Doyle's trust (and, as Doyle points out, his health as well), made that scene hard for me to read. Shoshanna gets major props for being able to both melt my brain with sexy and at other times leave me squirming with discomfiture, though.

I saw a couple of people mention on the previous post that they thought the bike ride was a little bit random. I agreed with that--until kiwisue posted the lyrics (http://community.livejournal.com/ci5hq/84049.html?thread=1234001#t1234001) to the Depeche Mode song from which the title and summary came. To me it almost seems like the whole idea might have grown out of that image, the lads on their bikes and all the tangled threads of their relationship between them. Who does wear the trousers? I think they both do--and they wear 'em well, too. :)

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

I really liked this too (not least the sex scenes), completely on its own, but it made a lot more sense to me after the source in the Depeche Mode song was pointed out to me, now keen to have a listen to that.

Castleton was well done as an OC, and I was really carried along with the way that brief relationship was portrayed, as Bodie was first suspicious, then quite happy and relaxed with him, and finally Bodie's discomfort and disgust. The only aspect of the infidelity that didn't sit well with me was how readily Doyle forgave Bodie - but I'm glad he did.

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

Ah, you've come so close to my feelings about the story (and the trousers), with the exception of the infidelity issue. I did wince a little on first reading, because I wanted the lads together and I knew this would be a major stumbling block. Shoshanna wrote them out of this situation really well, I thought, and given the resolution I don't think that Bodie's going to stray again.

In general, though, I don't have a problem with infidelity, threesomes, polyamory (although that's a more modern term - 1990's I think). It's all in the power of the writer to convince. YMMV, obviously.

And yes - hawt sex *g*

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

I think the fascination and ‘page turning’ stemmed from the study of the gradual turn-around of Bodie’s thoughts and feelings and the light that shed on some homophobic attitudes. I really wanted to know how he would resolve it all and from that point of view the story was compelling and satisfying. As a psychological study it worked. A resounding 'me too!" to this cormment by moth2fic from the previous thread.

That really is the compulsion to keep reading here, that gradual turn-around from Bodie - it's fascinating to see him change. Though there were times when I wanted to throw my hands in the air and for them to just GET. THE. FUCK. ON. WITH. IT!!! ( But that is undoubtedly the fangirly in me, the one lulled by a thousand explosive zipless first time fucks in her fanfic..*g*)

Like J, the Americanisms threw me. Not enough to make me back out of the story, but Bodie and Doyle were occasionally a bit too touchy-feeling and 'American' maybe??

I enjoyed this, I liked the fact that the approach was quite different to a lot of the first time slash I've read in Pros.

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

'I liked the fact that the approach was quite different to a lot of the first time slash I've read in Pros.' That's well put. It did make a refreshing (if uncomfortable) change that the first time wasn't all fireworks and champagne corks. More like real life. And (sex aside) Doyle makes his pas right at the start, and the story is about the aftermath, instead of the more usual build-up to the 'first time' denouement.

It's a melancholy Sunday morning because it's the last Proswatch tonight - your review is one of the things I'll miss most.

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

*Don’t take this comment as the end – please continue discussing as long as you like. This is just my personal wrap on what I’ve taken from the discussion thus far.*

Wow! I love the Reading Room, all the smart people who have contributed their different perspectives and thoughts about Shoshanna’s story. I’ve agree with some, disagreed with others, altered my perceptions of the story just a tad – it’s all good.

My response-summary to the points raised in different comments:

1. Billy Cruse.
Various people thought that Bodie felt rejected by Billy. blkandwhtcat suggested that this was because Billy was the elder of the two and therefore the leader. I’m not so sure. Bodie says, “But after that we avoided each other like the fucking plague, and I didn't even think about why, I just stopped hanging about with him.”
I read that as mutual avoidance, rather than Billy avoiding/rejecting Bodie. They were both old enough to realise that what they’d done, however enjoyable it had been (because they did it twice I’m assuming it was enjoyable), was regarded as wrong/deviant/queer. Bodie’s mental shutting the door on the incident was denial, certainly. I didn’t need a compass for this part.

2. Portrayal of Doyle
Many people commented that they didn’t find this story’s Doyle resembled their own image of his character. I agree - to a point. He is too subdued. But I don’t think he’s written too far out of character. I read him as tentative, hurting, anticipatory… and very much caring about not fucking things up when he gets what he most wants, Bodie in bed with him. So he holds back, a lot – which is reflected in Bodie’s observations, only subtly. Maybe too subtly. Because everything is written from Bodie POV, and it’s a fairly self-centred POV for much of the story, Doyle’s pain barely registers.

I know that I allow for that situational restraint and that diminished perspective in my reading. It doesn’t bother me too much, because I can see a variation of Doyle that includes that holding back, although I understand why others might not like that portrayal. I do know that what I see of Shoshanna’s Doyle I can relate to. For example:

"No." The answer was fierce, and a strong hand caught his shoulder, yanking him back. "Damn it, Bodie, this is what I meant. I'm not going to let you go running off and pretend none of this ever happened!"

3. Sex
The sexual encounters are described in detail. YMMV on that one. My reading is that Bodie is hyper-aware of what he is doing, of what is being done to him.

I don’t see Doyle as less passionate than Bodie:

"Mm. Used to look at you in those pullovers and jackets, all covered up, and wonder what your nipples would taste like. Always wondered. Gonna find out," he added, and ducked his head forward.

Less passionate? Not in my book.

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

They were both old enough to realise that what they’d done, however enjoyable it had been (because they did it twice I’m assuming it was enjoyable), was regarded as wrong/deviant/queer.

I'm just wondering, I know you're not saying this but your comment has led me on to another question which is, do you think there's a stage in growing up when their behaviour wouldn't be considered deviant? If so, I wonder what the cut-off age would be before homosexual behaviour is considered to be homosexual rather than just same-sex kids mucking about?

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

Many people commented that they didn’t find this story’s Doyle resembled their own image of his character. I agree - to a point. He is too subdued. But I don’t think he’s written too far out of character. I read him as tentative, hurting, anticipatory… and very much caring about not fucking things up when he gets what he most wants, Bodie in bed with him. So he holds back, a lot – which is reflected in Bodie’s observations, only subtly. Maybe too subtly. Because everything is written from Bodie POV, and it’s a fairly self-centred POV for much of the story, Doyle’s pain barely registers.

One of the things that I think supports what might be an off-kilter perspective of the characters (and not just in NLMD) is the very nature of fan fic. The writer is picking up from canon, which -- even more than with original fiction -- supports the feeling that the story captures a particular moment in time, that some catalyst has occurred perhaps changing (even if temporarily) all that went before.

Partly the writer is relying on the fact that we all know the characters already -- we know Doyle is volatile and scrappy, she needn't keep reiterating it -- partly the writer relies on the fact that the reader accepts that this change of events has occurred and so out-of-behavior behavior is now understandable.

It's a delicate balance. For me, ideally, I want to have my view of the character reaffirmed (visually as well as in other ways) and I don't want his reaction to catalytic events to be too far from what I think I already know and recognize. If it is too far then I consider it "out of character" but that's largely based on my own concept of the character.

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

After following this and other comments about what the experiment with Billy Cruse meant, I can't resist adding my simplistic thought, which is that it didn't have much impact on Bodie at all. More dominant was the social conditioning he received against homosexuality.

The impression I had in the context of the fic was that Bodie is reassessing this, in the light of the possibility that he might be attracted to other men. He asks himself if he has ever had a homosexual experience, assuming of course that he hasn't, and finally dredges up the Billy Cruse incident, which he'd buried, not because it was traumatic, although he wasn't proud of it either, just because it wasn't relevant. Thinking back on that, he remembers it wasn't unpleasant, in fact he can't quite remember why he didn't pursue the experiment, so it becomes another piece in the jigsaw of his new sexual identity.