Warnings - but hopefully not the same old debate

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

*Tick-tock. Tick-tock.*

One of the problems of being half a world or more ahead of most of your flist is that if something's scheduled for suchandsuchaday you kinda think it should be happening now, not in 8, 12 or more hours. When tired, after-work brain finally wakes up to the fact that it's only just turned into Thursday over on the West Coast, you realise you have a few hours to kill the opportunity to think/talk about something else.

My "something else" tonight is Warnings. During the last Reading Room discussion a few of us veered a little off topic & started talking about this subject. It comes up in Pros every now & then, and has done so slightly more frequently over the past few months if I'm any judge of such things. The various positions are fairly entrenched - although this time I felt I was talking to people who were at least prepared to try & understand the 'opposing' point of view. Anyway, lo and behold, there was a post linked to metafandom on the very same thing just today.

You can read metafandom's warnings posts bookmarked on delicious here. There are a ton of them - I'd recommend telesilla's post as one where the various positions are stated, frequently with some vehemence. It's clear the "warnings" debate is not done & dusted in the rest of fandom, is all I want to say about that. Read 'em if you're interested.

So, what really interested me about the newest post was This Thread which contains some civilised discussion between people I know hold very different points of view. And I simply adored this quote: " flexible warning options FTW *g*.

Because I'm not anti-warning for everybody, but I am anti having my own reading pleasure diminished by spoilers. And I understand that imperfectly rendered lj-cuts leave readers who want particular types of warning but don't want to be spoiled for other content through automatically processing at least some of the story while scrolling down the page to the trailer might have a problem! I want those 'flexible warning options', but it seems to me that we won't have them until people are a lot better trained-up in how to do them.

So my intent is to describe as clearly as possible the various options for "optional warnings".



1. Option One: - Trailers
A trailer is like a header, except it's at the end of the story. This is the requested placement for warnings on discoveredinalj. There is one problem - if people don't use two lj-cuts, one for the body of the story itself and one for the trailer, the people who want to check out the warning first have to click on the story link and scroll. Yes, that is tedious, and possibly spoilery. So here's how authors can do it better.

When using these HTML markup tags, remove the asterisks - I've only put them there to neutralise them (kinda like leaving the pin in the grenade *g*).

<*lj-cut text="replace this text with the text you want to link with or the title of your story but leave the quote marks in-situ">
Paste the body of your story here. Then close this first lj-cut:
<*/lj-cut>

Leave a couple of lines of spoiler space and insert the second lj-cut which will link to the trailer:
<*lj-cut text="Trailer">
Put your trailer information here.
<*/lj-cut>

2. Option 2: - Highlight to Read
I haven't had much experience with this one and would like someone who has a background colour other than white to try it out, or comment if you know more and I'll change this section. Basically you set the font colour (spelt "color" when coding) so it matches your background and the reader needs to highlight it to read it.

<*lj-cut text="replace this text with the text you want to link with or the title of your story but leave the quote marks in-situ">
<*font color="white">
Paste your warnings/header here.
<*/font>

Paste your story here.
<*/lj-cut>

3. Option Three: - Link/cross-post
I'm including this because it's a valid option, although I think it's a little clunky and anti-community (because it divides comments). You post one version of the story, with header warnings under a lj-cut, to your own lj or comm depending what the rules are, and another with no warnings, or basic header only, in The Other Place.

<*lj-cut text="replace this text with the text you want to link with or the title of your story but leave the quote marks in-situ - this is the version with the header so make sure you note that">
Paste the header/trailer and body of your story here. Then close this lj-cut:
<*/lj-cut>

Then insert the link:
<*a href="copy and paste the URL where the story is mirrored without spoilers between the quote marks">Go here for my story without warnings


That's it! Hope some of you found it useful.

ETA: I'm getting comments re-hashing the "should there, or shouldn't there be warnings". To which I say - my post aims to get around that problem and give readers, whoever they are and whatever their preferences are, what they need! Please don't rehash the old!!!!

(also, am going to bed in a minute - because it's late Down Under)

Comments

[lukadreaming.livejournal.com]

Very interesting! Different fandoms appear to have different habits, if you like. My other fandom apart from Pros is Primeval, where warnings appear to be the tradition. Some people there have been experimenting with the highlight to read idea. I haven't tried it yet, but may do now, thanks to your easy to follow guide *g*.

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

Different fandoms appear to have different habits

That's what I've sensed too. And different spaces within fandoms - the_safehouse requires warnings in some categories and doesn't specify whether these should be outside the cut or under it. I'm basically all for things that make it easier for readers to get their preferred reading experience.

I *hope* highlighting works - I've barely tried it out myself and would be grateful for additional pointers!

[mikes-grrl.livejournal.com]

I'm basically all for things that make it easier for readers to get their preferred reading experience.

Truth like a laser!

I'm just the opposite of you; if I don't have a summary/warning, I won't read the story (I really don't like death!fic and I've been derailed one to many times by running into it by accident not to take the safe road). And I like having a general idea of the plot/pairings/topic involved, too. Yet, I am sympathetic to those who don't want any kind of spoiler at all, and it hardly seems fair for everyone to do it MY WAY MY WAY MY WAY! ...ahem...

I really like the idea of flexible warning styles but it won't sell because as you pointed out most fandoms have traditions -- irrational, but there you go -- that they simply don't want to break. It's ridiculous, especially if it is costing readership, but not much you can do in the face of "we've always done it this way!!!!!!"

I've used and seen used the "highlight to read" option and like it best, although the coding is an issue for people not coding-inclined. I don't find the "link/cross-post" method as community busting as some people obviously believe it is, but again, fandom tradition makes the rules there. *shrug* If people would use the double-lj cut for trailers, that would be splendid, but they don't, so instead I just end up skipping stories. Yes, I know how to scroll, but when scanning a busy flist (not everyone is mono-fandom, people) on a busy schedule it is easy to just say, eh, "I'll go back and catch that if someone reccs it to me later" thus ensuring that I just don't read any of those stories.

Flexibility is key for a community to be vibrant and active. In the other fandoms I'm in people pretty much post warnings/spoilers as they individually see fit without it being an issue at all, so I don't understand why people get all flustered about it. *shrugs again*

[draycevixen.livejournal.com]

In terms of whether there should even be warnings I don't think agreement will ever be reached. I do understand both sides of the argument, particularly when it is stated in terms of "well books don't warn" except for the fact that fan fiction isn't the same thing at all. If a 80,000 book contains a rape or incest scene or a character death it is all set within a much larger story. If not, if the whole book happens to be on that subject then there will be warnings on the cover... "Lorna is the victime of a vicious rape..." As the average piece of fan fiction is 4000 words long if it features rape, incest, BDSM and/or character death then that's pretty much all you're going to be reading about. While that still might not be an issue for some people it is going to be for a lot of others. Using myself as an example, if a writer failed to warn for incest I'd never read another one of their stories. I used to volunteer with womens' shelters which also makes me relatively squicky on the subject of rape.

That said, I always thought one way to handle the argument that the *mere* presence of a warning cut spoils someone's experience is that if I ever ran a com I would require *everyone* who posted to make a warning cut every time, even if it only said under the cut "no warning required." That way just seeing that the cut existed wouldn't be an indicator of anything.

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

In terms of whether there should even be warnings I don't think agreement will ever be reached.

No - that's the reason for this post. There emphatically are ways to give people what they want/need without denying others the same courtesy. And lurking around the traps gives me the sense that the debate has been moved from this position somewhat.

the argument that the *mere* presence of a warning cut spoils someone's experience

I think that's a red herring, at least as far as comms go. We can deal much better with the issue if we consider it in terms of "story information" (headers, trailers), with "warnings" being part of that information. Then we can choose how to present that.

[draycevixen.livejournal.com]

I don't consider it to be a red herring in that I was actually trying to contribute to your debate with my suggestion of a compulsory cut (whether it contains a warning or no) in that when this subject has come up people have indeed said that the mere *presence* of a warning cut is a spoiler as they then know the story contains BDSM, Under-aged fic, incest fic, rape fic or death fic -- so I was suggesting a way to avoid that.

[klangley56.livejournal.com]

Here's my problem. In almost every discussion about warnings that I've seen, someone makes a suggestion for a compromise, as you have done. Usually something to facilitate those who want warnings getting them and those who don't being able to avoid them.

But warnings are not an issue only for readers (of which I am one). They are an issue for writers. I don't want writers to spoil their own stories on my behalf. I don't want it, I don't expect it--in fact, I resent it on their behalf.

Internet fandom has created a culture where the readers *demand* that the writers do this--or risk being lambasted, accused of "lack of courtesy" and "not caring about their readers."

Phooey to that, sez I.

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

I want you to have headers, or accessible trailers/other links to warnings, and I don't want to see them. My post was about giving us both what we need.

[biani.livejournal.com]

I deleted my post. Sorry for being "off topic".

[hambelandjemima.livejournal.com]

There are a lot of points here and I'm concentrating on how to hide warnings just now because I was going to have a play around with that at some point to see how to do it. In option 2 you've put <*font color="white">. Now if someone is viewing that on a background other than white, won't it show up without the need to be highlighted? I think you have to specify the font colour and background colour to be the same. I could be wrong. As I say, I was going to look that one up :D

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

I tested a little - put "red" instead of "white" and the text came out the specified colour. I couldn't find a code that gave the background colour no matter what. Hopefully someone with more skill than I have will have some suggestions.

[hambelandjemima.livejournal.com]

I've got a few html pages bookmarked, so I'm having a look now :D

[mikes-grrl.livejournal.com]

Yes. You need to code the font and background as the same color for this to work. Hmmm...lemmee see here....

*digs through coding cheat sheets*

[hambelandjemima.livejournal.com]

*sits back and lets Mikey do the work*

[msmoat.livejournal.com]

I like the idea of flexible warnings, and also that they be tied in with trailers that you can click on or not. It wouldn't be that hard to do two LJ-cuts. The font color coding thing I'm more dubious about. *g* But the LJ-cut? Easy enough to do. And I suppose that's my position. Whatever the option that might please the most people: make it easy. (I'm sort of fed up with both extremes. Um. As I often am. *g*)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

It's the make it easy aspect that I really want to take into consideration. There's some nervousness about doing even one cut, and it seems like two, and/or the highlighting option (which I quite like, cos then it's just not visible at all unless you go there on purpose, and no one has to scroll anywhere, which is apparently more traumatic than I'd ever have expected!) is likely to heighten people's worries/anti-lj feelings. On the other hand, it should be theoretically possible to include a simple proforma for it in each initial challenge post - as long as people will read the damned thing (and understand that it applies to them as well... *g*)!

[msmoat.livejournal.com]

Well, and, um, the more I'm thinking about this, the more grumpy I'm getting. When did fandom become about pleasing readers with all their individual preferences and not about craving and sharing fannish productions--in whatever way? This idea that people won't read stories just because X, Y, or Z weren't done--I don't get that. I read Pros stories because I crave Pros stories. I will do what a comm asks me to do to participate in sharing stories there. But, yeah, if it is difficult for me to figure out how to post.... What's the point of that? I would hate to discourage people from participating.

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

But the LJ-cut? Easy enough to do.

I think so, but I've been doing this lj thing for a while now *g* It's nerve-wracking the first few times. I had a desktop text file with the common codes & used it like a template until I got more confident. And I practised in private posts in my own lj as well.

I'm sort of fed up with both extremes.

I'm fed up by the repetitive, very repetitive, nature of the posts.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh, excellent post - and I know you mentioned the double-cut idea in a comment somewhere, and I stupidly deleted it from my email thinking I'd go straight there to reply, got distracted, and then lost where it was and haven't gone back to find yet - so thanks for this.

The whole issue you've brought up is exactly why we were using the trailers-rather-than-headers style of warning at Dialj - because on the one hand we have no problem with people who want warnings/spoilers, but on the other hand we didn't see why people who didn't want them should have their reading spoiled. And since we ask people to use a cut for long stories anyway, out of courtesy to all lj-users, using trailers doesn't involve anything extra technical. I've seen people commenting lately about the "inflexibility" of "Pros"/comms about warnings, but the only thing we're (Dialj) inflexible about is satisfying as best we can both groups of people rather than just one.

I personally think I like the idea of highlighting warnings etc - it'd make them even more invisible for people who didn't like them, and yet right there for people who did.

Trouble is, I can see problems with this, as well as with the double-cut option - and that is that there are lj users who are either worried about how to use even simple lj-cuts or else don't seem to read the posting instructions in the first place. I worry a bit that including more complicated instructions would put some people off posting altogether. For example one contributor to Dialj last challenge didn't end up posting to the comm at all, presumably because they were worried about how to do it - I sent instructions, but didn't receive a reply, but as the fic popped up on ProsLib instead I can only assume that was the reason.

If anyone can think of a way of making it a simple process for people who aren't especially confident on lj, then that'd be great... and I think that in Pros there are people who are less than confident about lj, some people who are only tentatively trying it out, and I really don't want to alienate those people either...

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

The whole issue you've brought up is exactly why we were using the trailers-rather-than-headers style of warning at Dialj

See, I like trailers in concept, but they do take a little bit of extra effort to do properly.

I'm not sure what to do about people who don't seem to grasp the concepts of cuts (or highlighting - yes, I like that too), except to be crystal clear with posting instructions, offer assistance as often as is needed/asked for and be patient with the inevitable goofs (you did know being superhuman was part of the modly position description, right?). Most people will get it eventually.

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

On the topic of warnings -- which might be considered spoilers -- in order to introduce a fic for discussion (as in the new Reading Room discussions), I feel like it's probably necessary to give some kind of blurb/lead which might in theory contain a spoiler of come kind.

My thought was to put any spoilerish comments behind the cut so that those who've already read or want to read with a more academic approach can do so -- and I'll state that in the initial blurb?

Does this feel like a workable compromise?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yes, sounds right to me. I was assuming that people would put the bare minimum outside the cut, maybe title and author, and "Here is my review" sort of thing, and then the rest under the cut - and of course people going into a review or discussion are going in to be "spoiled", so there shouldn't be need for any other worries about it, right? Thanks for thinking about it!

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

I want warnings! And I don’t mind where they are. I’m able to scroll down, or open a cut, or follow a link to the author’s page, whatever... Really! Whatever solution you think is the best – it’s fine for me! Just give me a warning!

Before I read a (longer) story I try to find as much information as possible in WWW. It’s the same process as reading a TV journal, or buying a book at the store – you read the back cover first. And what else is the meaning of recs here in some coms?
That “don’t judge a book by it’s cover” is nonsense! Of course we do!
I don’t need to be influenced – you can be sure that I have my own opinion – I just want to know certain things!
I just want to have the choice to say: “That category? No thanks!”

So – WHEREEVER YOU DO IT – JUST DO IT!
Give warnings!!!

That means “spoiler” for some people? What about the spoiler “Pairing: B/D”???
Many people won’t read a story without that “B/D”... And that spoiler is accepted by all. So...
I don’t want to read for example a death fic. What’s wrong with it?

I want to enjoy a story, I want to lose myself in a story - without the fear of a bitter ending...

***
Reality is overrated!

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

I understand your position - my post was an exploration of ways to give people choices.