Fic Review - Old Longings, by Jane

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

It's been a while since I did one of these, so I thought I'd try and start the New Year well... *g*

The first fic I picked up from the pile on my shelves was Old Longings by Jane...

...which was apparently written in September 1981, making it surely a very early Prosfic (I wonder what's the earliest date anyone's come across?). Thing is, Jane appears to be very Jane all the way back then too. I did wonder once, in a musing-ish post at (I think) the_safehouse whether her writing had changed over the years, but...

It's a great premise, as Jane's often are, if simple: Doyle was attacked and raped, and the story is from Bodie's point of view, showing how it's all dealt with and how they both - and Cowley - cope with the situation.

The trouble for me is that the story's written with a characterisation of the lads that I just can't see: Doyle is virtually helpless, and needs constant reassurance from Bodie that he's doing the right thing, and Bodie is the absolutely confident and much wiser partner. Doyle is also continually being described by Bodie as "beautiful" and being called pet names that actually seem rather creepy to me - rather infantalising.

We're also given various explanations of what it's like to be gay, and how it's really okay, which made me think that the author was really trying to convince herself of that, and because of the subject matter we're also reassured that rape is A Bad Thing. Unfortunately this comes just after Bodie asks Cowley "We're just talking about push and shove, not bottles or knives?" which read rather strangely to me... On the one hand I'm fascinated by the idea that what we write in many ways reflects our own attitudes at the time as much as anything else, on the other I'm left cringing at the apparent attitude...

I also read a morality in the story that I don't necessarily see in the eps: the idea that personal vengeance is fine under certain circumstances, and that the bad guy always deserves what they get - no mitigating factors ever allowed (cf Mickey Hamilton) - and that's usually a nasty death. Bodie is written as particularly vicious too, which makes Doyle's personality seem even more helpless and uncertain...

I wonder if it's because this is such an early characterisation of the lads that people seem to have railed so loudly against it and continue to do so, and sometimes seem to assume that it soaks through all Pros fic, whereas really, I don't think Doyle is infantalised nearly as often as we're led to believe. But Jane was so prolific...

There are (I believe) four sequels to this story, at least two of which were attached to the fic, so really I should read them next...

I know, I'm writing a review and I'm being really negative, and all that - but I'd still like to hear what other people think! It's such a big part of Pros fandom history... *g*

Comments

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

I've often wondered if that's a stage a lot of fandoms went through, or perhaps just older fandoms because of the times, because there's a lot of it in UNCLE and K/S, too. Doyle or Illya or Kirk are described as beautiful and practically godlike in looks. Now, I think all three men are attractive, but none are what I would call beautiful...thank god. Anyway, maybe because you're talking about a time when slash wasn't very old, it could be that the "beautiful" member of the pairing was still being written as a stand-in for the woman—beautiful, helpless, smaller, shorter. With time, it seems to have pretty much disappeared.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Hmmn - in Old Longings Jane does actually seem to try to emphasise Doyle's masculinity in specific description, but then she adds in all these other attributes as well... To be honest I'd cringe at someone talking about a woman in the terms used in the story as well! It's very... not just Mills and Boon romantic, but very chauvenistic as well - as if looking a certain way means that someone has to act a certain way too... and have a protector...

I think I mentioned above that I find it really interesting the way we seem to work through our own issues in fannish writing - another one that strikes me again and again is the treatment of rape in fic... As KSW mentions below, Jane very much gives the rapists/potential rapists what would be considered a completely indefensible argument today - Doyle is so beautiful that they couldn't help themselves. I'd be fascinated to know whether anything like that pops up in MUNCLE?

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

I think I mentioned above that I find it really interesting the way we seem to work through our own issues in fannish writing - another one that strikes me again and again is the treatment of rape in fic... As KSW mentions below, Jane very much gives the rapists/potential rapists what would be considered a completely indefensible argument today - Doyle is so beautiful that they couldn't help themselves.

As if rape had anything to do with physical attraction!

I'd be fascinated to know whether anything like that pops up in MUNCLE?

God, all the time, way more than in Pros. Probably because David McCallum really is quite a bit shorter (I don't care what they're bios say, when he's standing next to RV it's very noticeable,) he's constantly being manhandled. Another thing, Illya fans often bring up how unthreatening he was to them when they were young girls, unlike Napoleon who they saw, and still see, as something of a predator. So Illya is constantly turned into a little boy lost by some authors.

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

I agree with you about Doyle's characterisation. He's increadibly helpless and needy in this. I'd believe insecurity or self-doubt, especially since he got an erection when he was raped - "what does that make me?" Both the physical arousal and the post-traumatic guilt are common reactions, as Jane obviously knows. And just as obviously makes sure that we know she knows *ahem*. But I don't think he'd regress to the extent he seems to have done here.

I didn't think "push and shove" is all that bad in context of Bodie trying to deal with this sudden news, but I went pop-eyed when Cowley segued from "Doyle's been raped" to "Is Doyle gay?" for no reason except Jane wanted to get Bodie talking and thinking about how pretty/sexy/fuckable Doyle is. This is repeated a couple of times, and it sits at odds with the other things Bodie says/does, e.g. attempts to get Doyle to 'normalise' his reaction to the assault.

It's as though Jane's running 2 arguments, and the 2nd one's a bit off: Doyle is at least partly to blame for what happens not because he has an Evil Enemy (TM), but because of his appearance and inherent sexiness (and ? smallness); his assailants 'can't help" desiring him and wanting to fuck him. They aren't blameless but their behaviour is "understandable".

Jane's authorial voice is strong and it often seems as though she uses her characters as mouthpieces. Is it "Bodie as written by Jane" or "Jane stating her thoughts, values, norms through Bodie"? I'm not sure. But given she seems to know something about the impact of rape on the victim, I don't understand why she would employ the 2nd argument, let alone do it again in other stories. And I'm saying this *despite* the fact that I enjoy the occasional rape or edge-of-consent story.

I suppose it's possible that because some people read and enjoyed that style of story, she wrote more of the same. I have no idea how much criticism reached her ears.

Re. the vengeance issue - I think you can write Bodie saying "If Doyle dies...", because he has said that, and it's not a stretch to think that if Doyle dies then someone's going to pay. But she has Cowley actually incite Bodie to it, which I find hard to believe and she doesn't present that in any way that I find credible.

...people seem to have railed so loudly against it and continue to do so, and sometimes seem to assume that it soaks through all Pros fic, whereas really, I don't think Doyle is infantalised nearly as often as we're led to believe.

Yes! to this. Jane's quirks as a writer and her prolific output make it a) very hard to miss her and b) all too easy to ascribe those characteristics of her writing to Pros fandom as a whole. It's sloppy thinking - I suspect that when it's brought up it's often done for lolz as much as anything, except maybe by newbies who are genuinely puzzled by what they find.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Is it "Bodie as written by Jane" or "Jane stating her thoughts, values, norms through Bodie"?
Yes, I wondered if she was effectively being Bodie here, sort of a strange Mary-Sue...

I've got to admit that I'm not sure how much depth there is to her knowledge - I mean, I knew the impact of rape on a victim just from reading your standard blockbusters, as well as more "literary" books (!) as a teenager in Australia, but I know now that I didn't have any depth to my knowledge, and I wonder if I'm seeing something similar here with Jane? For example, she says outloud in the fic "That's a cruddy thing to say - like saying a woman with a normal sex life can't get raped, because she's used to sex!" but then the deeper attitude of the fic is (as you say) that Doyle is so beautiful/exquisite/has such a nice arse that people can't help themselves raping him... Such huge contrasts suggest to me that the author is sort of still working through the issues herself (and of course some people never get any further than this anyway)...

I can see Bodie wanting vengeance - and as you say, it's canon, but again it's the detail she has him thinking about that makes it seem odd to me - I can't see Bodie thinking in such gory detail about that sort of thing: Bodie would have hammered his front teeth out, one by one, redesigned one of his kneecaps so as to accomodate him with a life-long limp.... I dunno - I can more imagine Bodie wanting that sort of thing in the abstract, and doing it in the heat of the moment, but... but maybe that's just me. *g* And as you say, Cowley's incitation of it all is... not right.

Oh, or perhaps it's just me railing against the way she has them talking so much and describing their feelings aloud in such great detail, because I don't equate that with our lads either - they don't talk in huge long explanatory sentences!

I have no idea how much criticism reached her ears.
Hmmn, I wonder if there's any of this sort of discussion in letterzines... I wonder when the earliest letterzines were released?!

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

I wonder if there's any of this sort of discussion in letterzines...
I only know about the one my friend K published (The Hatstand Express) and I've seen #1 - #9, but Jane was never published in those. I don't think there was any inter alia discussion of her work in LOC's either although I can't be sure.

I've got to admit that I'm not sure how much depth there is to her knowledge
Yeah, she does strike me as someone who knows at least something about a great many subjects. But she also seems to get a few facts right and then she totally fudges the rest - and in saying that I'm being very careful to think about what I would have known or been able to find out back then. I was a tertiary student between 1974 and 1977 and I knew how to work those stacks *g* - found many interesting things, very little to do with what I was studying (chemistry, biology etc)!

Edit: For example, I read a lot of feminist texts, including Susan Brownmiller's "Against our Will" and by 1980 I definitely knew that it wasn't about the victim's desirability, it was all about power and control and that the responsibility was totally the perpetrators.

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

This might be of use in the discussion (from Brown University Health Services (http://www.brown.edu/Student_Services/Health_Services/Health_Education/sexual_assault/malesurvivors.htm/)):

What are some of the feelings a male survivor may experience?
Any survivor of sexual assault may experience the following feelings, but male survivors may experience these feelings in a different way:

* Guilt -- as though he is somehow at fault for not preventing the assault because our society promotes the misconception that men should be able to protect themselves at all times.
* Shame -- as though being assaulted makes him "dirty," "weak," or less of a "real man."
* Fear -- that he may be blamed, judged, laughed at, or not believed.
* Denial -- because it is upsetting, he may try not to think about it or talk about it; he may try to hide from his feelings behind alcohol, drugs, and other self-destructive habits.
* Anger -- about what happened; this anger may sometimes be misdirected and generalized to target people who remind the him of the perpetrator.
* Sadness -- feeling depressed, worthless, powerless; withdrawing from friends, family, and usual activities; some victims even consider suicide.

If a male victim became sexually aroused, had an erection, or ejaculated during the sexual assault, he may not believe that he was raped. These are involuntary physiological reactions. They do not mean that the victim wanted to be sexually assaulted, or that the survivor enjoyed the traumatic experience. Just as with women, a sexual response does not mean there was consent.

The experience of sexual assault may affect gay and heterosexual men differently. Rape counselors have found that gay men have difficulties in their sexual and emotional relationships with other men and think that the assault occurred because they are gay. Heterosexual men often begin to question their sexual identity and are more disturbed by the sexual aspect of the assault than any violence involved.

[magenta-blue.livejournal.com]

I think I read this once and thought ‘agh!’ and backed away. Coming back to it a second time, and I still cannot take it seriously. There are a few reasons for this. One is the characterisation – I simply do not recognise Doyle in this. Here he is written as a pretty, beautiful, fragile, blushing thing – Gilda_elise’s idea that people were perhaps still writing with the idea of one character being a stand-in for ‘the woman’ sounds very plausible, although if this were a female character it would still be sickly.
I also have to squint past over-done descriptions – Doyle being described as ‘an exquisite creature’ to me sounds like a lizard. There’s more of a nod to Bodie and Cowley’s characters but even then something is wrong. Bodie is very patronising and superior (you could argue he can be that way on screen, but that is tempered with the rest of his sunnier canon character traits – here patronising and superior is pretty much the only thing you get). Cowley prompting Bodie for revenge, no I don’t see it.

Then there is language – Jane uses the word ‘pervo’ - Doyle says to Bodie ’I never figured you for a pervo’ - to me this is pure Home and Away, and I cannot take the fic seriously beyond that, as now every time Doyle speaks I foster him with an Australian accent.

After that there is tone – or rather, the lecture – as kiwisue says, Jane runs two arguments parallel – and neither pull in the same direction, so I am left frowning at the screen. Especially the ‘Doyle is so pretty he practically asks to get assaulted’ story thread – eugh. I really detest that way of thinking, and that, coupled with descriptions of Doyle’s character compared to a ‘blossoming flower’ makes me want to run away back to some normal fic!

Finally though... when I once was a newbie, I didn’t actually stumble on Jane at all. I started at ‘A’ on the Circuit Archive, and so by the time I reached ‘J’, I was starting to skim stories that didn’t appeal too much, so these stories didn’t put me off with their wilting flower descriptions, or make me think all fandom thought the same, by then I had read enough to make me think definitely not!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Heee! Run away, run away! *g*

Patronising and superior - yes! That's exactly how he behaves, and exactly the words I was trying to think of! He can be in canon, as almost everyone occasionally is, but he's constantly like that in Old Longings - and in fact in alot of Jane's stories.

And hee for the Australianisms - I cringed at those too, cos they're so obvious! *g*

I was the other way as a newbie, I wasn't at all systematic in my reading, so I used "random" and if I found a story I liked I went off and read all the other stories by that author. I did like some of Jane's fic then, including, for example, her zine "Czardas" which is a Ladder of Swords crossover - but I'm kind of scared to go back to it now, cos I suspect everything I find difficult to read about Jane now will jump out and niggle at me!

I've seen alot of newbies saying though that Pros writing is a certain way, that there's a tendency to "feminise" Doyle, and it's overly-romantic and so on, and I'm not sure how much Pros they've actually read at that stage - but I wonder if that sort of rumour is based alot on people's descriptions of Jane's writing... Then again, she is far from the only one - except that then I wonder if later such writers were people who'd come in to Pros without having seen the eps (pre-dvd, but maybe even post-) and so based their characterisations on such as Jane's...

/rambling... *g*

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

Jumping into this part of the conversation:

've seen alot of newbies saying though that Pros writing is a certain way, that there's a tendency to "feminise" Doyle, and it's overly-romantic and so on, and I'm not sure how much Pros they've actually read at that stage

Yeah - and if you ask 'em to tell you which ones they've actually read that are like that, they don't want to tell you half the time! Very frustrating.

[loyseofverlaine.livejournal.com]

I have to say this story sets my teeth on edge. I'm one of those old-fashioned feminists, and the whole "oh, gee, I got raped and it turns out I like it" scenario makes me cringe. It's just as stupid and unrealistic with a man as with a woman, especially considering that Doyle actually got injured in the course of it. And I don't buy Doyle's reaction either. It's true that rape can have terrible psychological consequences - you often read of women saying that their whole lives have been changed: they're afraid all the time, they can't stand being alone, or can't stand being around people, they're constantly second-guessing everything they do, to try and head off another assault. So Doyle being traumatized makes perfect sense. But I'd see him expressing it by drinking, or fighting with everyone, or staggering out of his hospital bed to try and track down his rapist and kill him with his bare hands.

I also agree that Jane makes Bodie way too patronizing and superior - he almost seems stuffy, and that's not Bodie either. I don't have any problem about Bodie going for revenge - that's canon in several places - but it gets treated as a throw-away, and the genuine story possibilities that could grow from it are ignored in favour of more emotional stuff between the guys.

this comes just after Bodie asks Cowley "We're just talking about push and shove, not bottles or knives?" which read rather strangely to me This is one of the few things that really does ring true to me. As a mercenary, Bodie may well have been in the kind of conflict that lead to revenge-rapes or ethnic cleansing. In those situations, rape of both men and woman is often accompanied by horrific assaults with everything from gun barrels to tree branches. Given that background, "push and shove" is probably a relief.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh, sets my teeth on edge is a good way to describe it for me too! And yes, the idea that being raped "turns Doyle gay", and the way he expresses his trauma...

but it gets treated as a throw-away
You know, maybe that's why it feels wrong to me, because I do think Bodie would take that sort of thing seriously... In the eps he's out for revenge, you're right, but it's never in a thuggish telling us kind of way, as it is here, it's in a this-is-serious-I'm-doing-it kind of way...

which read rather strangely to me This is one of the few things that really does ring true
I didn't explain myself very well over that, did I? Sorry! No, I agree that the sentiment rings true, and I can believe that Bodie would wonder about it, but... again it was something to do with the fit of the sentence with others in the story - there was no explanation of why that'd be Bodie's immediatel worry (even a couple of words would have helped), and it was surrouned by alot of rape-is-the-worst-thing angst etc, and yet Bodie says "just push and shove", which without any other explanation read as though it was belittling the experience against what it could have been... which yes, it could have been worse, but to go from one thing to the other without any explanation of that momentary transition just... didn't work for me!

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I haven't read this and from the sounds of it I don't think I can face it....life's too short for certain kinds of Jane fic. But someone mentioning doyle being infantalalalalaised reminds me very much of the GOM Jane stories.....or even Coming Home by Kathy Keegan where even *Murphy* (rather than Bodie) refers to Doyle as his 'bonny boy' (I swear) WTF? What is it with Jane - in some stories, not all - having Doyle being cosseted(sp?) all the time.....not to mention The Hunting, which I loved by the way, but at one stage it *has* to have Doyle blinded and extra thin and vulnerable, in need of nursing and nurturing.......Has this been said already? Wanders off, mind far away on.......something

[draycevixen.livejournal.com]

Coming Home? Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek! <-- *is known for her critical reasoning skills*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think that's what interests me about Jane in some ways (though not in a way that means I can read alot of her fic without cringing any more - I used to be able to...) - I wonder how much of her we're seeing through her fic as opposed to how much of the lads - I'd say at least 90%! Because I really don't see her characterisation of Bodie as "patronising and superior" or Doyle as uncertain and vulnerable in canon at all - at least not more than being a couple of percent of their characters, which is about what it would be for most of us, I think...

Cossetted is an excellent word to describe Jane's treatment of Doyle too! I mean, I like the idea of vulnerable lads but only as you'd see them on the show - momentarily admitting to it (like when Bodie was upset about Fraser's death, or Doyle about Ann's leaving), or else being worried (usually for each other) and doing something about it! We never see them cringe away from doing things, and I think that's their bravery and their strength. Jane doesn't seem to give Doyle that at all...

I liked the start of The Hunting actually, with Doyle temporarily blinded and in Bodie's power, but only until I realised that (unlike in canon) he was going to remain so extremely vulnerable throughout the whole story. Unchained Melody is another extreme example (among extreme examples like GoMM!) where Doyle is actually that most powerful of all things, a vampire - immortal and unnaturally strong - and yet he still requires cossetting by Bodie in Jane's universe... It's odd...

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

I've never read GOMM, and I seriously don't intend to (unless someone has a copy hanging around when I'm next over your way). When I first read 'Coming Home' it was as a circuit copy in amongst an absolute boatload of other stories (I gorged myself) and I didn't pick up the problems with it then, although I can't read it at all now.

I can't read "The Hunting" any more either. I can read "The Dreaming Stone", apparently (tried the first part again today).

[squeeful.livejournal.com]

Oh man, and this didn't even get into my big twitchy peeve!: that only gay men rape other men. Okay, it didn't come full-out in this one, but iirc, it did in another of hers and HULK SMASH STORIES TO PULP.

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

that only gay men rape other men

To be fair to Jane, the fact that there were "men who had sex with men" who identify as neither gay nor bisexual wasn't generally acknowledged until the late 80's# and then only if you worked in a public health environment.

#I worked in community health (in Australia) from 1988 and I'm pretty sure we got some lectures about this from one of the HIV/AIDS prevention staff sometime before 1993.

SO given Jane doesn't seemed to have grasped the whole concept re. sexual attraction vs power/domination/anger in rape (which was known about before 1980), I think it would be hard for her to then imagine a rapist who wasn't sexually oriented towards the gender of his victim.

It doesn't make it easier to read now, of course. Which one of her stories was this in?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know what you mean, though I do see as kiwisue says, that if Jane hasn't worked out that rape isn't primarily about being attracted to the victim (because Doyle is so beautiful!) then she's unlikely to think that anyone except another gay bloke would want to rape another man - and probably still at the stage where she thinks that a woman's rape of a man would be welcomed by most men... She does actually turn very ambiguous and unsure in Old Longings when she has Doyle wonder how he would have felt if it had been a woman who'd raped him, in stark contrast to her certainty about everything else in the fic...

[draycevixen.livejournal.com]

When I started reading Pros fic I had friends and friends of friends who'd been Pros fans in the past and I asked them for recs... the first stories that were ever recced to me were by Jane, Kathy Keegan (I didn't this was a Jane alias at the time)... and Tarot's Consequences. My initial impression was that Pros fic was all Bambi-esque Doyle and abusive/macho Bodie and partner rape (KK's Coming Home I think that's the title is definitely into rape/abuse territory as far as I'm concerned and again with Bambi Doyle and caveman Bodie). I went back to those friends and said "these stories aren't really to my taste" and was basically recced the same type of stuff. The thing that kept making me want to try to find older stories I wanted to read was, first and foremost the lad love, how many of the writers who were *currently* writing that I really loved *and* the friends I'd began to make in the fandom who were a pretty fabulous bunch of broads (I knew I had to be missing something if they loved the stories that much). I asked for more recs... again, I couldn't make a "connection." So, I took a leaf out of my mate Andy's book, stopped asking for recs and went to the archives and started systematically reading through the stories. In the process, I found lots to love and, even more oddly, a lot of those stories were by authors where I'd had one of their stories recced to me and hadn't liked it enough to read more. M. Fae Glasgow is a good case in point. You recced one of her stories to me (I can't get the Circuit Archive to open else I'd check the title, it's the one where they can hear the neighbours) and I thought it was clever but it didn't draw me. I've since read almost everything she's written that's available on line and love almost all of it, even stories like A Call of Nature that certainly isn't what I'd wish for the lads.

Note: I thought I'd rambled off track here so I just sent this comment to BSL instead. She suggested I repost it here so... *g*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

It sounds as if your friends do like Jane's brand of writing, which makes sense because some people must have since there are other people who write with similar (if not as extreme, I'd say) characterisations (Doyle being smaller=vulnerable, Bodie being bigger=confident). So I suppose it would make sense if they're recommending fic that they like that they'd rec you more of the same!

Consequences is a bit different to Jane's writing, I'd say - I don't see "patronising and superior" Bodie there, or "vulnerable" Doyle in the same way, although they're both those things too. It's been discussed elsewhere, so I won't get into it now, but I can see it being recced more as a this-is-something-that-affected-Pros-writing-hugely-for-a-while, because alot of fic took it as a basis for something that needed to be refuted, somehow. And it's well written as far as language etc goes, I'd say.

I suppose Jane's fic was more naturally "refuted" by other writers writing more canon-based characters - although I believe her Two Up had at least one direct sequel to banish the attitudes Jane had displayed. So presumably you either read and loved Jane or you read and loved other authors writing at the same time. And then of course there's always the cultural differences thing too - Jane was an Australian writing in that society, not in British society which is a completely different animal.

I don't think I recced an M.Fae with neighbours in it - I tend to rec her "Wish I Wasn't Here", or "The High Road" of hers, or perhaps "A Slow Swedish Screw"... Can't even think of one with neighbours in it right now... You'll have to remind me of that one when you can! Actually, that'd be a good thing to do today - I shall read some MFae and rec her at CI5hq, see what people say! She's another one who seems to cause strong reactions... *g*

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

Re. Jane: That's something that I found puzzling when I went to Zebracon in '07 - older fen there definitely seemed to regard her as a 'classic' Pros writer and spoke of her very fondly. One lady, who I think must have been well over 60 asked me who was on the ballot for Pros and when I mentioned Jane's name she said "Oh, Jane..." in a reverential tone. I felt it would be churlish of me to question her, so I never found out exactly what it was that she loved so about her stories, but I think it would be interesting to know. I do think there's a divide between those fen and practically everyone else I've met/talked to on lj or lists in the past 4+ years.

Re M Fae Glasgow: Oh gods, I love MFae Maybe not every story in equal degree, but how do I count the ways....
- she's an intelligent writer. She often throws stuff in that makes you think, in ways that aren't obvious, that in a lesser writer would seem didactic or forced.
- she can break the rules and get away with it - like the way she sometimes messes with POV, and yet you don't notice immediately, maybe only on a closer re-reading
- she has a huge range, from humour and romance to dark and angsty or even tragic
- she's great for kink and smoking hot sex scenes
- I love the feel of her writing, the rhythm and flow of it, the storytelling

My favourites, in no particular order:
- Alone and Palely Loitering (Bodie without Doyle, in Glasgow, "buying a future" for himself with Doyle)
- Grievous Bodily Harm series (BDSM)
- The High Road (the one with Cowley's mum)
- I Saw Three Ships (M Fae being about as romantic as she can be)
- In Flagrante Delicto (so Doyle's the 'feminine' one, hmm?)
- On Heat (the one where Doyle's expectations of a night with Bodie aren't quite what he encounters)
- Snowbound (not everyone's cuppa, but it's worth thinking about the differences between the two versions. I'm convinced there's a point there)
- Wrong End of the Stick (OK, I love the Irish nurse, who is pure slash fangirl, and the way they resolve matters - also, another one where Doyle' tops' from the bottom)
- Wish I wasn't here (the one where Cowley tries to separate them)

I'd love to continue this - what made you decide you liked her stories?

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

I remembered I reccd you an MFae story - "Wish I wasn't here".

[mungo-jerrie.livejournal.com]

"I know, I'm writing a review and I'm being really negative"

Ah, is it that time already? :) Seems like every few months, you disinter Jane and have a go at her work. I think most of Pros fandom know you don't like her writing-word choice, characterization, attitudes, themes, the lot. She *is* a big part of early fandom, and a lot of older fans *do* like her work (as do a lot of new fans) and she *was* prolific, so if you want to "review" Pros in a lit crit sense, you do run smack in to Jane...but this is beginning to sound like a very old tune. To paraphrase a catchphrase from another fandom, "she's dead, Jim." We got it the first time.

Unless of course, you simply find it therapeutic, to go over and over the things you don't like about Jane's work? Our dog has a wooly toy, made out of a bit of old sheepskin. When he's had a bad day, he digs it out and beats the *snot* out of it. He seems to feel very much better about life after. :)

Here's a question for you: why don't you *write* more? I've read your fic; I *like* your fic. Twenty or thirty years from now, all that the fandom may know about *you* might be your fic.

It'd be a shame if there weren't more of it because you spend all your time reviewing old work. A fan once complained that she didn't like the Pros fandom because all they did was spend their time going over and over old fic. I objected, because I consider thirty years of fic to be a treasure...but now I wonder if she wasn't right-if *that's* the public perception of Pros fandom: obsessed with reviewing the past.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Why don't I write more - excellent question! Unfortunately I'm not in a very comfortable personal situation at the moment, which for me isn't conducive to writing, although I am trying. It's nothing dire, but I do find that I have to be able to concentrate, or be in the right "mood" or something to write. I've done a little, but not as much as I'd like to! Hopefully soon... And thank you, I'm glad you like my fic. It's fascinating to think, isn't it, that one day the only way people might remember us could be through our fic. And one day even that will have faded away...

I do spend time reviewing old fic too (and yes, sometimes it is easier than writing myself!) - ages ago I set up www.palelyloitering.com to list and review Pros zines and fic. When I was new to fandom the one thing I couldn't find was somewhere to give me an idea of what zines/stories I should first spend my money on, and since I wanted to learn html anyway, I decided to create my own site (this was pre-The Hatstand zines list, in fact we discussed the idea at the time). I'm still working on this project, and will be for a long long time, as well as various new ones. I'm eclectic like that... *g*

As for regular disinterring and criticising of Jane's fic - I'm sorry it somehow seems like that, but to put it in perspective, since January 2008 I've made 37 posts to CI5hq, of which 17 were fic reviews/recs. The only review I've actually made of a Jane fic is this one! I also started a discussion/asked for help compiling a list of Kathy Keegan (aka Jane) fic - that wasn't a review as such, although it was thoughts about KK fic. This post actually led to my being able to add a near-complete (I hope) list of Jane/KK's fic over at www.palelyloitering.com, which is something I'm hoping to do for every Pros writer and have barely even started yet - so Jane is currently well-ahead there, for all to see!

Jane most likely will come up alot in my reviews/recs, not because I dis/like her more than other writers, but because she was incredibly prolific in Pros. I'm not generally reviewing writers as such (although discussions often turn to the general) but individual stories. There are many authors who've written stories I've loved and others I've liked less or even disliked, and so it makes more sense to me to deal with the stories individually.

As I've said before, if you'd like to write reviews of Jane's stories that you've particularly liked, to give people another perspective, then that would be wonderful - that's the whole point of ci5hq and www.palelyloitering.com, to give people as many thoughts as possible. The more people who contribute, the better. What would be wonderful is if one day there were enough reviews by enough different people that I could list them at palelyloitering by reviewers as well, and people would be able to follow the tastes of reviewers they know they've agreed with in the past. Takes alot of people participating to be able to do that though!

Finally - I hope you pointed your friend to sites like discoveredinalj, the_safehouse and The Automated Hatstand (http://hatstandfic.net/) to show her that there is actually alot of new and wonderful Pros fic being written all the time; The Great ProsWatch posts to show her current and lively discussions about the episodes, from people - new fans included - who are watching them right now; and all the other wonderful current discussion and creation posts particularly at the_safehouse, where new discoveries are being made about things in the eps all the time... (Did you know that Bodie is twice seen with handcuffs on his bedhead?!)