Werewolves of London by Rimy

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Title: Werewolves of London
Author: Rimy
Link to story: http://hatstand.slashcity.net/rimy/werewolves.html
http://www.thecircuitarchive.com/tca/archive/14/werewolvesof.html

Help, please! I've just reacquainted myself with this story and wondered if anyone else had read it fairly recently? I'm slightly confused by the flashback which comes straight after the scene in the pub towards the end of the story. Either I've *misunderstood* the whole scene, or I'm streets ahead of the author and I've completely understood everything.....Or maybe it's been deliberately written so that it's open to interpretation...... Anyway, I'd be interested (and grateful) to hear what other people - anyone - made of this scene (or the whole story). Thanks!

Comments

[justacat.livejournal.com]

I'd be happy to give you my thoughts on the end scene - what is it that you want to discuss? I haven't read it all that recently, but I know it practically by heart; I absolutely adore this story - love, love, love, love, love it. I even wrote a...review? discussion? paean *g*? of/to it right after it was written (in my LJ, here (http://justacat.livejournal.com/44325.html) - back when I used to actually write sort of thoughtful stuff in my LJ!)

The writing in that story just blows me away. How I wish she was still around, and still writing...

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Many thanks, Justacat. Right, I’ve read this story twice now, once this week and once 3 years ago, and I *think* I’ve understood most of it (but who knows? And that’s not a criticism. I love stories which make me think, which have [the much discussed by some of us] layered ‘onion effect’, stories which leave me wondering and pondering aspects of it long after I’ve finished reading. Someone once said in a discussion re this particular piece of writing, that they didn’t like stories which forced you to read them more than once in order to understand them and I *can* appreciate that but I think there’s a difference between those kind of stories and stories which you read again and again because on each reading some new, different meaning is revealed - not because it was badly written in the first place but because it was deliberately written in such a way as to mean several things. Not a case of ‘clever-clever’ but perhaps clever and fascinating. Anyway, the bit I wasn’t sure about - nothing major but just something niggling away at me - is a flashback which comes just after the pub scene towards the end of the story. Bodie has strong suspicions that Doyle has enacted various forms of revenge on his behalf and so has overstepped his usual moral boundary. So far so good. Then the conversation appears to take on a secondary meaning and seems to be about Doyle revealing how much he really cares for Bodie and the kind of way he cares for him. If you agree with my interpretation, so far, then I’m really puzzled by Bodie’s almost extreme reaction to this knowledge, given that he feels the same way about Doyle. Is it just nerves? He seems almost repulsed by the knowledge, thinking in terms of ‘revenge’ - or has he really *not* thought about Doyle in this way before?

"What makes you think I won't go straight to Cowley?" Rage, betrayal...hurt, with a sick edge to it: he wanted to hit back at Doyle, match him wound for wound. "How d'you know I won't shop you?"

I could understand the whole scene a bit more if my interpretation was wrong and Bodie is simply reacting to the revelation that Doyle isn’t the ‘moral compass’ (that term is borrowed from you) he once thought he was, but is, instead, just as ruthless as Bodie. Which leads me to a lesser point, one which I might have missed, but are we ever shown *why* Bodie pushes the man off the roof in the first place? If we're not given any reasons is it just a device to show how ruthless Bodie is? But that action seems to go beyond the ordinarily-required ci5 level of ruthlessness to something bordering on sick/psychopathic.....(maybe I *have* missed or forgotten something that happened between Bodie and this man?).

Anyway, just wondered how you or anyone else interpreted this scene! And I enjoyed your review of this story. Many thanks.

spoilers I'm sure!

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

Which leads me to a lesser point, one which I might have missed, but are we ever shown *why* Bodie pushes the man off the roof in the first place? If we're not given any reasons is it just a device to show how ruthless Bodie is?

Isn't he the driver of the car who hit Doyle? I only read it the once, but I gathered that Bodie's revenge was tossing Hill off the roof, and Doyle's was having Krivas snuffed. Plus Hill was a known drug dealer, so I'm going to say Bodie had no problem wiping him out without a second thought.

As for Bodie's seemingly furious retort, I think this paragraph is the telling one:

(Bodie)He wanted to laugh at that, but he was afraid that, if he did, stopping would be a struggle. He was still falling, dropping away from every last one of his certainties, and the prospect of regaining his footing looked bleak, when his best chance lay in the man who'd shattered the bedrock out from under him, the same stranger he'd trusted to break any fall.

I think Bodie was shocked to find out Doyle cared/loved him enough to kill for him. No wonder he's shaken. Nobody's every probably felt that way about him before. Under fire is different, but this was just cold and calculated revenge for Bodie's sake.

Re: spoilers I'm sure!

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Isn't he the driver of the car who hit Doyle?

Ah, that sounds about right, thanks. I'm a very distracted reader i.e. easy to distract, so I must have missed that. I *thought* there had to be a good reason as the author attended to detail in every other respect.

I think Bodie was shocked to find out Doyle cared/loved him enough to kill for him. No wonder he's shaken. Nobody's every probably felt that way about him before. Under fire is different, but this was just cold and calculated revenge for Bodie's sake.

Good point and I can understand Bodie's shock but he seems almost repulsed by the idea and I think the word 'betrayed' is used. Not sure why he'd feel Doyle loving him is a betrayal unless it's a betrayal of all that he'd thought about Doyle up to this point. And threatening to go to Cowley? It just seems a strange reaction. And this phrase threw me a little bit: He'd broken a cardinal rule of lovers' quarrels and dealing with Doyle - I took a doubletake here as for a second it sounded as though they were already lovers.

Right, that was interesting and you've helped to clear up a few points for me! I think, basically, I was on the right track so that's a relief! Many thanks.

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

Interesting story. I'd not read it before. The pub scene is quite -- revealing. Not what I'd expect of Doyle at all, but strangely, it didn't bother me what he'd (supposedly) done. Bodie, I could see what he's done. He's more hard-edged. Doyle? I don't know. It was a bit OOC, but the romantic in me kind of bought into it. It's not love-romantic, more -- possessive romantic. Don't touch what's mine. That sort of thing. It's definitely well-written. The thing is do you (the reader) buy into what we're told/shown.

Or am I totally wrong about the entire thing. *g*

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Thanks for reading and commenting! I agree with your take on the story and I don't really care how ruthless Doyle is either, in fact the more ruthless they both are (in terms of each other) the better! But I *was* puzzled by certain asepcts of the scene which I've elaborated on above.

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

And what does that say about me? I'm perfectly willing for Doyle to kill for Bodie, even even the target is apparently not a current threat. Go figure...

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Well, whatever it says about you it says it about me as well because I agree!

[angel-ci5.livejournal.com]

I also need to reacquaint myself with this story... I know I've read it, but it was a while ago and my rubbish memory is thwarting all attempts to recall my impressions of it! I'll definitely be re-reading it as soon as I get a chance though, it all sounds very intriguing! Thanks!

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

I think it's even better second time round because of all the layers etc. And I think it's a stimulating read - one which makes you think.

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

Thank you for posting this! I love Werewolves and, like you, I find new things about it every time.

I think that Bodie's 'extreme reaction' is partly to do with his initial suspicions about what Doyle has done, or caused to have done. That's strike one against his understanding of who Doyle is, his moral boundaries. Strike two is when he realises Doyle cares for him. Those two things, coming on top of seeing what happened to Krivas, then realising that what happened (whatever it was) to Willis and the bikers was part of it as well. I can see that unsettling him - Doyle has ever been his constant, until he takes "an unexpected turn down an unknown road". Cool as Bodie is, his autonomic nervous system must have been driving his stomach into his throat at that point.

I think he resolves it, too - the idea forming (maybe not in his head as such, but sublimely expressed by the author) that Doyle is "Atropos with a Swiss Army knife" - one of the Fates, making decisions, cutting threads that ought to be cut (lots of classical allusions in this, I haven't worked out half of them). Someone to be wary of, but to 'worship', to give oneself to at the same time?

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

God, but that's *good*! (Don't know where the exclamation mark should go). I really like that explanation - a sort of onion-layered explanation to a multi-layered story. I can *see* that and I really like your last point:

Someone to be wary of, but to 'worship', to give oneself to at the same time?

I love that combination of attraction, intrigue and then, almost, fear? And yes, I suppose the physical symptoms of shock - shock at several discoveries, the most important of which is the shock at discovering that Doyle is as ruthless as he is and so is no longer his much-needed 'moral compass' - *could* come out in the way they did with feelings of sickness and repulsion. And he'll feel betrayed because Doyle isn't the person he thought he was.....and yet he still loves him?

I really like your interpretation, thanks *so* much for that *and* for liking the story!

[surreul.livejournal.com]

oooh, I love this story insanely.

My interpretation is a bit different from what seems to be the consensus. I thought Bodie's negative reaction was almost exclusively to Doyle's revelation that he loves Bodie and wants a sexual relationship with him. He adores Doyle and has for a long time, it's something he's never felt before and it's now the ruling passion of his life and he's grown comfortable with that, figured out how to deal with it, accepted that he has a big part of Doyle and that's enough. Now Doyle rips his certainties apart, now Doyle offers something Bodie wants desperately and longs for... so now there's the possibility of losing it. Bodie even says that 'furious betrayal' would not have been his first guess as to what his reaction would be if Doyle ever wanted him back. But that's the way he feels because he's scared and in shock. In this story, Doyle is Bodie's moral compass, (nice phrase) and the very center of his life, his everything, and now he does something to change all that Bodie knows, that's terrifying. Bodie never expected and dreamed Doyle would love him, even now after they're lovers, after he knows what Doyle has done for him, he still only sometimes believes Doyle loves him.

Of course, that's just my take on it. :)

I really wish Rimy had written more serious fics, they're just incredible. Do you know if she's in any other fandoms?

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

Maybe not so different... I've reread that section and changed my interpretation somewhat. Originally I saw it as two quick punches to the gut - Doyle's done these things, Doyle wants Bodie the way Bodie has wanted him for ages - but I think it's more like a feint and a kinghit *g*. Or maybe, in the author's words (emphasis mine):
"He felt a little ill, for the risks he could, without much stretch, picture Doyle running, and a lot lost, for needing an operator's manual to read his own partner.

So not so much about what Doyle had actually done, but much, much more about the risks he took. And primarily about the revelation, which comes after this quote.

Thank you for the insight!

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

This particular quote is very helpful and explains things. I couldn’t understand why Bodie’s reaction would be so extreme given what he himself is capable of (aside from Doyle being his moral compass) but, as you say, it’s more about the risks Doyle has undertaken on Bodie’s behalf. That helps to clear up a lot of my questions over that particular aspect of the scene.

But I think I (probably) still lean towards your original double (or triple) whammy interpretation of the scene - that it’s not an either/or situation but more a matter of how much weight or emphasis we should give to each of the possible reasons for Bodie’s reaction. And (temporarily sidestepping what I've just said) I think it’s a combination of things: that he was shocked to discover the risks Doyle had gone to; that he was shocked to find out that Doyle’s definition of morality could be stretched; that he was shocked to learn that his own comfort zone was under threat (and thanks surreul for opening my eyes to that point) and profound shock to learn that Doyle returned his feelings; and so, overall, he was shocked to learn at least two fairly profound things about Doyle. But I think the discovery that Doyle loves him *does* far outweigh all the other factors and is supported by Bodie's reaction to that particular bombshell.

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

I've written a bit more below so I don't want to repeat myself but I just wanted to say thanks so much for your input, particularly your take on *why* Bodie felt that he'd been betrayed - I really liked that point.

I'm afraid I don't know any other fandoms apart from Pros so I wouldn't know if Rimy writes elsewhere. I do know that she seemed to disappear of the Pros radar when this story came out and came in for some criticism, so maybe the two things are linked, but who knows?

Thanks!

[surreul.livejournal.com]

Ah well, hope that she returns one of these days.

Thanks for starting this discussion! Lots of fun to see other people's reactions.

And the layers theory of multiple surprises definitely has something going for it.

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Thank *you* and glad you enjoyed the discussion. If anything grabs your interest in the future, please drop by again!

[hagsrus.livejournal.com]

I don't think it was anything to do with criticism of that story -- she knew it would be controversial, and most people whose opinions she valued appreciated it.

I speculate that it was RL problems, probably exacerbated by the death of our beloved editor, Joan Martin.

I'm hoping she will reappear one of these days! I miss her as a friend as well as a superb writer.

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

I'm sad for her if the reasons were to do with real life events, but I'm glad it wasn't anything to do with reactions to the story and so, hopefully, she might come back and write some more!

Thanks for letting me know.