Does Fanfiction change your view of Canon?

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

I've been madly reading Pros fanfiction and have also found some extremely interesting and thought provoking discussions about specific stories here and elsewhere.

Lately, I've read a number of stories that fall into the realm of "unbalanced relationships", sometimes subtly, with just an occasional "thought" by a character, sometimes as the main theme of the story.

After finding the detailed thoughts people had about how Bodie and Doyle were acting in such stories, I wonder if and how the feelings they come away with influence their own view of the Bodie and Doyle they see in fanfiction.

Are you able to shake off any story and see the lads as you used to again, when watching an episode? Do you dislike one or the other more, when you previously didn't? Do you see scenes on the show in a different light?
If Doyle was a seemingly heartless bastard in one story, do you find it easy to see Bodie in that role in the next story and go with what each author presents?

Or do you seek out stories that jive with your view and stop reading when a story takes a turn that you can't see your Bodie or Doyle or Cowley taking?

For me, after a particularly unsettling story that(doesn't mean I disliked the story, just that things happened in it that aren't easy to shake, or that the Bodie and Doyle in it aren't at all like I perceive them in the show) I find myself watching an episode or two, to get things back into perspective, before getting back to reading.

Comments

[schnuffi.livejournal.com]

Hm, I usually avoid stories where I think the lads are "out of character". But even if I do read one or another they normally leave me shaking my head in denial. But they do not influence my own perception of the lads. I see them as I see them and that's it, nothing can change that.

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

I guess for me, I start wondering if I maybe have been watching through rose colored glasses, especially when one trait or another keeps coming up in stories by different authors.

[windrain10.livejournal.com]

I agree w/ you, about watching an ep to get the lads, as you see them, back in your mind. I have to do that even if I'm not reading a story in which I feel they are out of character, I have to do that periodically just to get their voices back in my head, their mannerisms back in my mind. I think I'm not long enough in the fandom that they are ingrained me yet.

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

I, on the other hand, have been watching Pros since the start, though in German at first, but there have been long breaks, since I didn't have the show recorded, and had no idea about fandom and fanfiction until we got our first computer in 1995.
We just recently watched the whole run of the show as a family (husband and daughter liked it a lot) and what I remembered when watching the first time still stands today.

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

I don't continue reading a story when I don't see/hear the lads. Of course, it's different for each of us, but I have no problem bailing out. I don't need to "see what happens in the end"!

Yes, I read stories that I think I'll like, from authors I know and trust, and from recs by folks who know my tastes. I don't have a driving urge to read every single story out there. Rather, I prefer to pick and chose those that will leave me feeling satisfied at the end.

If I read a story in a zine that leaves me unhappy, then I do go and find another to wipe that one out. I have read stories that were so horrible that I had nightmares. I am a sensitive creature. *bg*

A main stream book or movie is another thing all together. I can take a heck of a lot more there than I can when the men I love are creatures taken over my aliens and are unrecognizable in the story.

As for unsettling, to me if it's unsettling, then I don't like it. I read for pleasure, not to learn a lesson, to be preached at, to be shocked or to put images in my head that make me cringe. I want love and adventure and sex, with a good story, a bit of angst, a lot of h/c and most of all, respect between the characters.

No relationship is totally "balanced", so I understand that. But physical and emotional abuse isn't an unbalanced relationship to me. It's one that needs psychological intervention, prison terms or a bullet for the
abuser.

There are way too many good stories to read to spend valuable time reading the ones I don't like.

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

>>>>>>>>As for unsettling, to me if it's unsettling, then I don't like it. I read for pleasure, not to learn a lesson, to be preached at, to be shocked or to put images in my head that make me cringe. I want love and adventure and sex, with a good story, a bit of angst, a lot of h/c and most of all, respect between the characters.<<<<

I think I may get unsettled fairly easily! ;)
And sometimes I may not think things through, taking a characters thought as fact, when it may just be what he "feels", but it's not necessarily the truth. And I get all offended on the other's behalf.

Not sure if I'm explaining this very well.

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

If a story is very off from how I see the lads, I'll quit reading. If it's only slightly off I'll see it to the end. But I'm more inclined to wonder about the writer, and where they saw the characters they've written, than to change how I see Bodie and Doyle.

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

I have the feeling that some writers may "adopt" a certain concept from other fanfiction, thinking it's canon.
Having spend a long time in The Sentinel fandom, there is a lot of fanon that has crept in and many people *believe* it's canon, even though it has never come up in the show at all.

I don't know much of the history of Pros, and I'm not sure how many people
owned VCRs, when the show was originally aired. So I could see writers working from memory and reading other author's work and without the possibility of re-watching the episodes...

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

Could you name some stories? I wonder whether an occasional thought or expression would ever make me consider a story as "unbalanced" unless there was something else going on. I do much better with examples, so I can work out if we're talking about the same thing.

I'm sorry I missed the previous discussion, so a quick confession explanation of where I come from as a reader: I'll generally read anything "well written". I gravitate towards realism (even in AU's) but won't exclude fantasies; canon is my touchstone but I adore a well fleshed out AR; and dark, intense stories frequently move me, even those that have elements of tragedy or partner betrayal, because sometimes life isn't a bowl of cerries and people do have dark sides.

Are you able to shake off any story and see the lads as you used to again, when watching an episode?

Pretty much. One thing I do get from the episodes is that they're complex characters – even in canon there isn't a simple way of describing either of them – there is always the yes, but…" element. What I do is go with the flow of whatever I am immersed in – a favourite episode, a well-written story.

Do you dislike one or the other more, when you previously didn't?
I like Bodie more now than I used to. I was all about MS – but LC has grown on me. I like them (the characters) fairly equally now.

If Doyle was a seemingly heartless bastard in one story, do you find it easy to see Bodie in that role in the next story and go with what each author presents?
Or do you seek out stories that jive with your view and stop reading when a story takes a turn that you can't see your Bodie or Doyle or Cowley taking?
Whether or not I stop reading/skim to the end (mostly the latter, I do like to see where the story goes and I'm not afraid of any possibility) depends mostly on the writing. Can the author draw me in to her vision of their world? Make her characters, their actions and feelings believable? Then I'll stick. I might reflect on it afterwards, but I'll rarely turn to another story or an episode simply to reorient myself. If it's an unhappy ending, I might read something short, light and happy before bedtime – that's about it.
I'm told that Sebastian frequently writes a mean Doyle – to be honest, I don't see that as much as some. I once read something along the lines that a story is only partly the expression of the writer, it is also the reception by the reader that makes it what it is. I think I must ameliorate some of that supposed harshness towards Doyle in my reading process *g*

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

I once read something along the lines that a story is only partly the expression of the writer, it is also the reception by the reader that makes it what it is.

Continuing that train of thought - I think we often mistakenly believe that what we read is somehow evidence of the author's (the 'real', flesh and blood author) beliefs and values, rather than simply her (his) authorial imagination/intent at work. I don't assume that the story the author tells is a reflection on them as an individual. So when I see comments like "how could she", I say "why not?".

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

Found it!
"No Strings" by HG

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

I'll have to go back and find the "subtle" unbalanced story, but it was one by HG, recently archived where Bodie thought of himself as a "well trained dog". Doyle whistles, Bodie comes running etc.
I guess I just don't see Doyle being supremely sure that Bodie will always be there and ignoring him when he is otherwise engaged.
In fact, sometimes I feel Doyle just wants some time to himself (on the show) and Bodie thinks he is brooding and needs to be going out more. ;)
Not thinking of episodes where Doyle really *is* brooding, like the one where he accidently kills Paul Coogan.

And thanks for introducing me to a new word: ameliorate! I don't think I'll ever have a complete grasp of the English language.

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

Oh, thank you - I reread it. I think it's quite an early HG (Circuit Archive date is 1983 - which is just amazing to think about *g*).

They're both very emotional in this one. The unthinking violence with which Doyle rejects Bodie's presence, and then beats him up when they go to the gym, is overdone (IMHO). But I really like the sequel (Anticlimax - 1985). They're still having problems, but they're much more adult in the way they deal with them:

It occurred to Doyle as he stood with the Bodie-damp towel between his hands. If it didn't matter so much he would have found it funny; two grown men trying so hard to please. Trouble was, they were trying at all the wrong things and he didn't know how to stop any more than Bodie did, spontaneity crushed under the weight of uncertainty.

The difference (apart from the more mature writing) is insight - Doyle isn't oblivious, he knows they're going about things the wrong way.

Bodie's still insecure, but it's a far more believable lack of confidence in their new relationship & once given some reassurance he's very definitely back to his usual self *g*:

Bodie lifted his head then, actively concentrating. "Well you didn't seriously think that I was going to let you walk off whenever the fancy took you, did you?"

That unthinking arrogance made Doyle smile, one hand cupping the side of Bodie's face. "I suppose not," he conceded.

"Believe it."

"I can see I'm going to have trouble with you," said Doyle, finding himself half-naked and in danger of falling off the sofa altogether.

Sure and competent, Bodie knelt above him. "Nothing you can't handle," he said confidently...

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

This is such a big, interesting subject and even if I was sure of my feelings I'm not sure where I'd begin to comment or reply, but, but, but, I just wanted to pick up on a point made by kiwisue:

Do you dislike one or the other more, when you previously didn't?......
I like Bodie more now than I used to. I was all about MS – but LC has grown on me. I like them (the characters) fairly equally now.

From my own point of view I feel that certain writers in certain stories, e.g. Sebastian in Wonderful Tonight have *either* made Bodie a more interesting, complex character - more interesting than he is in canon - or else they've skillfully highlighted charactistics which I hadn't fully appreciated before. Sometimes I think it's the latter and sometimes the former, but I know since reading a lot of fiction I've come to like and be more interested in Bodie as a character than I had through watching him in the episodes. And whether or not he's horrible to Bodie or whatever, I think Doyle is portrayed in canon fairly consistently as an interesting, complicated kind of person and I think this is generally reflected in the writing, so reading the fiction didn't really influence or change my view of him...

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

>>>>>>>>And whether or not he's horrible to Bodie or whatever, I think Doyle is portrayed in canon fairly consistently as an interesting, complicated kind of person and I think this is generally reflected in the writing, so reading the fiction didn't really influence or change my view of him...<<<<<<

Just wanted to ask: do you see Doyle as horrible to Bodie in canon? Or was that referring to fanfiction?
And if it's in canon, can you please give me a few examples?
Possibly things that Bodie hasn't also done himself?
I'm looking for a consistent underlying trait, that keeps coming up, not just the occasional lashing out in anger, which I consider a fairly normal outlet of tension and which I see both guys forgiving and forgetting fairly easily.

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

Ah, thanks! :)

And I just explored your journal a bit more and followed the link to the "Noblesentiments" journal, and now I have to check out some of the stories mentioned there.
I've been on LJ for a while, but haven't used it much. Been more used to discussion groups, but many of them have gone very quiet, and LJ is still confusing to me. I start somewhere and next thing I know, I have 25 pages open, because I'm afraid I'll never find the interesting discussions, recs, stories again!

[hagsrus.livejournal.com]

If you use Firefox there's a neat add-on I discovered recently called Taboo. It's like a page of preview bookmarks. I've been finding it especially useful for LJ discussions.

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

I *do* use firefox! :)
Thanks for the hint! I'll go and check out Taboo!

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

I had to come back to thank you! :)
This add-on is fantastic! Just what I needed, since my sessions tend to end up so bloated with several windows with many, many tabs.

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

I have 25 pages open

I'm grinning as I read this 'cos that's exactly like me! And yes, discussions etc have gone quiet recently, that's why it was so good seeing the questions you asked.

And I''m so glad you've found Noblesentiments. I'm afraid I've been neglecting it recently since discovering how much fun it is to do images and quotes but I will return!

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

It's easy to get side-tracked and I love your images with quotes!

Oh, and your previous post appears as "deleted". I hope I didn't accidentally do that!

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Oh, thank you very much.

Yeah, I noticed that delete sign...I hope I didn't do it, but with me you never know! I can't think why I would but if I did it by mistake then I apologise!

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

And whether or not he's horrible to Bodie or whatever, I think Doyle is portrayed in canon fairly consistently as an interesting, complicated kind of person and I think this is generally reflected in the writing, so reading the fiction didn't really influence or change my view of him....

Just wanted to ask: do you see Doyle as horrible to Bodie in canon? Or was that referring to fanfiction?

I don't know about canon, but just thinking about fiction and all the different kinds of stories out there, I'm not sure if it's possible to answer that question. People can gain impressions from their reading but they're going to be fairly subjective and those impressions might be heavily influenced by favouring one character over the other (if they do). But no, I wasn't referring to canon or fiction but just picking up on a couple of things you'd said above and in an earlier post you'd made.

[erushi.livejournal.com]

Hm. I'd say both yes and no (which isn't really a proper answer, but).

Like the rest, if it's truly off what I think the lads are like, I'd stop reading it. But I'll keep reading if it isn't too off.

Often, fanfiction highlights for me certain traits of the characters that I don't quite pick up when I watch the shows, which allows me to re-watch them with greater appreciation. I think it was fanfiction that actually made me pay greater attention to (and thus increasing my liking of) Doyle. Well, what can I say? I am fond of me tall, dark, handsome, and engagingly modest lad!

What interests me about fanfiction, really, is how the writer interprets and develops "canon" by taking it one step further into new territory in the form of stories that are not of the show. Of course, I'm aware that not all the written lads represent how the writers actually view them - it might just be the writer experimenting with how a certain trademark of a character could become under various circumstances. It's like how Bodie's generally seen in most episodes as being cool and stoic on the surface, a trait that possibly comes from his mercenary days - there're fics that utilise this point to present Bodie carefully hiding his feelings for Doyle, and fics to present Bodie as a cold-hearted bastard who manipulates Ray.

I like it when writers take what's already in canon and develop it further to make the characters more rounded. Because from the shows, we don't really get as much, just a few hints of their background and much inference from their actions!

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

I think Bodie is a bit easier to take in different directions, *because* he is presented as cool and stoic and very sure of himself and his appeal.

He could be exactly like that, or he could be hiding behind a facade and really be supremely insecure (though I don't buy that he could be not letting us see a glimmer of that at least on occasion. Or I could have missed it? :)). And if Bodie is hurt, he seems to become the "Iceman", totally focused on achieving whatever his goal is at the time, and watch out if you get in the way. Though in Wild Justice, that's a bit different, more subtle. He keeps up appearances to a point.
I've actually seen a lot more cold hearted Doyle manipulating Bodie, than the other way around. Maybe it's because Bodie seems to be the preferred character for many fans?

Doyle shows a lot more emotion and inner turmoil. We can almost "see" what he might be thinking by watching his eyes, his face, his body language. He cries in canon (which has been taken a bit far in some stories ) and both Bodie and Cowley seem to be very aware of his turmoil ( being a bit of an idealist and having to reconcile that with his own capacity for violence). Then there are those looks he sometimes gives Bodie! They are one of the main reasons I just cannot see him knowingly hurt Bodie's feelings over and over. In a burst of anger or jealousy, yes, but not otherwise.
But that may be just me.

I do love fanfiction exploring their backgrounds, what their family life may have been like. And I love fanfiction in general. The only stories I try to avoid are death stories, other pairings (not B/D), AUs where the lads are characters I've never heard of.
Badly written stories don't make me question my view of the characters, but well written ones do! And there are some excellent writers in Pros, that highlight parts of their personalities that I'm having a hard time accepting, but I also *have* to finish reading it. :)

[erushi.livejournal.com]

It's quite interesting, isn't it, the stereotypes that tend to emerge in fanfiction?

They are one of the main reasons I just cannot see him knowingly hurt Bodie's feelings over and over. In a burst of anger or jealousy, yes, but not otherwise.
But that may be just me.

Nope, it's not just you. I fully agreed with your previous discussion about how heartless Doyle just seemed so wrong. (unfortunately, i joined the party too late as i only saw it when i came back from work and everyone had posted and replied, so i didn't bother with my two (parrot-y) cents.) The only way I can see Doyle hurting Bodie is when he's a) terribly oblivious - there was once this story I read in which a character commented that his lover wasn't the sort to be cruel, but he could be very oblivious, and at times that amouted to the same thing - or b) he's too wrapped up in his own ideals of not wanting to hurt Bodie that he keeps the latter at a distance and inadvertently does hurt his partner. I think Doyle seems to be written as quite a clear-cut character, which leaves little room for exploration/deviation in fics.

And since you mention AUs... *grin* I think you have a very valid point about well-written fics, and thus by extension, well-written AUs. I actually like reading AUs in which I feel that the writer has managed to effectively transpose what I feel to be extremely possible Bodie and Doyle character-types and interaction into a different setting. I like them because they let me imagine (in a way) what they would have been like had they not be on Ci5. Poorly written ones with completely different characters merely sporting the lads' names, however, just make me close the window and move on.

Another of my favourite type of story are those really long ones that have the lads working on a case, and somehow discovering themselves in the process. Heaven knows why, but I just do.

Any favourite stories/writers of yours? :3

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

I'll have to re-search that, since I have a terrible memory for names (of stories and writers).

Bullet with your Name by JGL
The Wish I Wish Tonight by JGL
Strange Days Indeed by HG
Black Sheep by HG
The Snowman With the Dark Coat by Castalia
Foxes and Feelings (I have no author name on that story, for some reason)
Sherry Trifle by Ailcia
Several recent stories by Slantedlight
Where the Worms Are by Pamela Rose
Flu by Sebastian
Fevers by Pamela Rose

This is just a very small selection! :)
And I'm a bit partial to Doyle in peril, I have to admit, but not in a terribly weepy, un-Doylish way. ;)
He may be letting everyone know he is in pain, but that doesn't mean he needs to be fainting and sobbing at every turn. And the same goes for Bodie when he is hurt in fanfiction. I can't abide them turning into veritable helpless children at the slightest injury.
It's a different story, when the injury is severe, but I still need them to sound like they do in canon. JGL does this perfectly (for me) in Bullet with your Name.

[erushi.livejournal.com]

Hm. I've never read anything by JGL before. Thanks for the rec! *trundles off to read*

Overly angsty/weepy lads just never does it for me either. Some hurt/comfort's always nice, but it gets rather ridiculous when the hurt's overdone. I love well-written vulnerable-Doyles, though. And I'm also rather partial to scenarios where the interaction between the lads is something of two alpha males growing grown used to each other after some measure of powerplay, because that's how I actually do see them, especially in the earlier episodes of the series.

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

What are some of your favorite stories?
Maybe I'll find something new, I haven't read yet. :)

[erushi.livejournal.com]

I'm currently rushing for work, so this will definitely be shorter than I like. I think you'd probably have read it all, though, especially since those I seem to really like tend to be the 'classics'. Generally, I adore stuff from the following writers, but the following are my especial favourites.

Those already mentioned my favourites by Pamela Rose.
Ellis Ward's 'Harlequin Airs'* and 'Legacy of Temptation'* (all her works, actually).
Tarot's 'Of Tethered Goats and Tigers' and 'Masquerade'.
Rosemary's 'Catch a Fallen Star' and 'His Reply'.
Kathy Keegan's 'Terms of Endearment'.
Alexandra's 'The Art of Love'* and 'Tea for Two'.
Anne Carr's 'Runner Home'.

Have marked with a * the AUs.

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

I've read most of them, though some not in a long time, but have to check into "Runner Home". It doesn't ring a bell!

Thanks!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Very late to the party - I've been suffering from a wobbly internet connection, and was terribly frustrated yesterday when I saw this but couldn't manage to reply! Feel free to ignore me if you've already moved on... *g*

Are you able to shake off any story and see the lads as you used to again, when watching an episode?
Yes, totally - because my basic lads are the ones that I see on screen, and I guess there's something in the back of my mind that always reminds me that reading fanfic is reading that author's lads rather than "mine". I think "that's not B/D" about stories, or "huh - interesting interpretation of such-and-such" rather than let them change my mind. But then I also watch the eps alot too, much more than the early authors were able to do on their dodgy vids and so on. In fact I'm watching them less than I have for ages at the moment, because I'm only watching for ProsWatch! Come to think of it, maybe that's why I'm not writing as much right now... ack!

There are Pros writers who've never seen the eps at all - they apparently start writing Pros as a response to other people's Prosfic, which I just find a weird idea! For me, wanting to write Pros comes from the eps rather than other people's fanfic.

Do you dislike one or the other more, when you previously didn't
I think if I'd ever disliked either of them, I wouldn't have fallen in love with the show, let alone B/D! I think I appreciate Bodie more now, than I did when I originally watched the series - but I'm looking through very different eyes, and more frequently... *g* I don't dislike Doyle proportionately less!

Or do you seek out stories that jive with your view and stop reading when a story takes a turn that you can't see your Bodie or Doyle or Cowley taking?
I do struggle to read a story where the lads are totally out of character, for me. As someone mentioned above, I've read some AUs which might just as well have been called original fiction from the outset. Stories where the lads are too "soppy", or too "emotive" often mean I'll stop reading too, because that's one thing I really don't think we see in the eps - our lads talking in great length about their feelings! We clearly see that they have them - but they don't talk about them!

But... what makes them B&D for me? Lots of little things, and sometimes these match other people's B&D and sometimes they don't. If I can see where an author got something from, then I can go with it as far as they take me - but if I can't see any reason for it (like having them talking long paragraphs about their feelings, or weeping copiously at the least little thing) then the author's lost me.

As far as Doyle being cruel to Bodie - that often takes me aback in Sebastian's stories, for example, but less so in Kate MacLean's, because I think KM sets up her stories to reveal that actually they're not really like that, it's just how it appeared at the time - and I can totally see that it sometimes looks on the outside as if their relationship is on the rocks (eg: "Runner", when Bodie's furious about something, is very vicious with the guys in the betting shop, and then bitter-sounding when Cowley criticises him and praises Doyle to him; "WJ" when Doyle doesn't seem interested in the fact that Bodie's seriously having problems) I don't want to turn those things into character traits though, I'm absolutely fascinated by what might have happened to make them behave that way just now, and how they'll resolve it all - because of course I'm convinced that they do. *g* I see KM as portraying something similar, whereas Sebastian's "cruel Doyle" seems to spring more from the way she actually sees the character, full-time, on screen.

I guess for me every story is a "what if". I can read and enjoy the strong emotions a good deathfic brings out, because I know that it's only "what if", and that the next curtain fic, or drunken-lads-together fic will be all the sweeter for reminding me that they're still alive to us all, forever... *g*

And now my connection is being wobbly again, so I'll try posting this now, but might have to come back and try again at lunchtime - *headdesk*

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

Very late to the party - I've been suffering from a wobbly internet connection, and was terribly frustrated yesterday when I saw this but couldn't manage to reply! Feel free to ignore me if you've already moved on... *g*

No, not too late at all! I kind of miss the old days of discussions that could go on for days! Maybe LJ moves faster, though?

But then I also watch the eps alot too, much more than the early authors were able to do on their dodgy vids and so on.

I was given some of those dodgy vids years ago by a kind fan. Copy of a copy of a copy, and I could barely distinguish who was on the screen, but oh, the joy of seeing the episodes again, and hearing their original voices for the first time. A bit hard to see any kind of emotion on anyone's face, though. ;)
Nowadays it's so much easier for most people to re-watch whenever they please.

In fact I'm watching them less than I have for ages at the moment, because I'm only watching for ProsWatch! Come to think of it, maybe that's why I'm not writing as much right now... ack!

You *must* watch more! Your stories are so good, right up there on my favorites list!

I think if I'd ever disliked either of them, I wouldn't have fallen in love with the show, let alone B/D!

Same here, but from reading comments in different places, there seem to be fans out there who wildly prefer one of them, and barely tolerate the other. Usually it seems to be Bodie who is preferred and Doyle the one who's just there or even disliked, from what I've seen.

I don't dislike Doyle proportionately less!
8) I think I've gone cross eyed trying to figure out the meaning, with the don't dislike, and the less! :D
If you don't dislike him less, does that mean you dislike him, and it hasn't changed?

Stories where the lads are too "soppy", or too "emotive" often mean I'll stop reading too, because that's one thing I really don't think we see in the eps - our lads talking in great length about their feelings! We clearly see that they have them - but they don't talk about them!

I agree totally! Though there is always the occasional exception, of course, where I wonder why something works in one story, but not in another. I'm not good at analyzing why I like something, which can be very frustrating when trying to write an LOC.

As far as Doyle being cruel to Bodie - that often takes me aback in Sebastian's stories, for example, but less so in Kate MacLean's,

That's extremely interesting! I'll have to read more stories by both author's. I've read a couple by KM, but will have to re-read, because on the surface her characters' emotions sometimes feel very flat to me, not quite real. I can't totally forget that this is a story, which I can easily with other authors. Not sure why.

And the only story by Sebastian I can remember right now (and it's in my re-read folder) is "Flu".

I can read and enjoy the strong emotions a good deathfic brings out, because I know that it's only "what if", and that the next curtain fic, or drunken-lads-together fic will be all the sweeter for reminding me that they're still alive to us all, forever... *g*

Oh, I wish I could shake a death story easily, but I have a hard time with it. I normally avoid them, but have run into a few unawares, and I can't say I enjoy the emotions. I'm so glad they didn't end the show with them dying. Is it true that there were plans to do that?

[squeeful.livejournal.com]

I was given some of those dodgy vids years ago by a kind fan. Copy of a copy of a copy, and I could barely distinguish who was on the screen, but oh, the joy of seeing the episodes again, and hearing their original voices for the first time. A bit hard to see any kind of emotion on anyone's face, though. ;)
Nowadays it's so much easier for most people to re-watch whenever they please.

Do you have better copies now? I have all the episodes ripped and saved on my hard drive for casual watching and backup. The image quality isn't fantastic as they're mostly intended for vidding (someday...) but I could archive and upload them for you to download if all you're stuck with is crappy VHS. No one should have to suffer through crappy VHS.

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

I do have something better now, but thanks so much for the offer! :)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I kind of miss the old days of discussions that could go on for days! Maybe LJ moves faster, though?
I'm not a good person to ask about that - I love the way that lj lets me go back to old discussions, and read the whole thing over again to catch up with what we were talking about, and then just carry on! I find it frustrating that I can't do that so easily on the lists... It's true that the lj discussions don't stay in the eyes of other people for that long though - unless you track comments, they sort of pass out of your flist page quite quickly...

You *must* watch more!
Aw - thank you! *g* It's so incredible to know that people not only read your stories but like them, so thank you for saying so!

Usually it seems to be Bodie who is preferred and Doyle the one who's just there or even disliked, from what I've seen.
Yes, I've had that impression too, although people have told me that in the past it was the other way around. Kind of as if liking Bodie is a backlash from so many people having liked Doyle first time around! To be honest I really hate all the "BB" and "DD" stuff out there - even if you do like one more than the other (and I'll admit to a fondness/greater empathy for Doyle) does it mean that you have to diss the other? Surely not...

If you don't dislike him less, does that mean you dislike him, and it hasn't changed?
Hee - sorry! What I meant was that even though I've come to appreciate Bodie more, that doesn't mean that I think less of Doyle - I still like Doyle! Doyle was the character that I liked best/empathised with more when I watched the original series on tv - though I was an innocent teenager at the time - and partly for that nostalgia I still like him "best". But I like Bodie more now, and most of all I want them both together! So I hate it when people try to portray one as "better" than the other - they're both ordinary blokes doing an extraordinary job, and they deal with it differently. Doesn't make one less than the other, I don't see that in the episodes, and so I'm not interested in stories that write about that dynamic... There may be times when they're not "equal" in some way, but it's got to resolve to show that (like all of us!) they're perfectly equal in worth...

Kate MacLean - on the surface her characters' emotions sometimes feel very flat to me
Hmmn - I think I can see that, and perhaps that's what I like, that she's so good at turning things around and showing us that they were never flat and unequal to start with, it's just our perceptions that have made it so... I dunno - I'm not very good at in depth analysis either! (And I'm perfectly happy with LoCs that just say they liked a story - although if someone didn't like a story I'd like to know why!)

I do like Flu, hits all my h/c kinks, and for both of them at once! Still, Sebastian has Bodie being the strong, wise one at the end of that story too, and Doyle looking forlornly after him... I don't object as much when the writing's as good as Sebastian's is, but sometimes... it niggles...

I'm so glad they didn't end the show with them dying. Is it true that there were plans to do that?
Oooh, I have no idea - I wasn't old enough or in-England enough to have heard that sort of rumour about the series. Maybe we could ask in a separate post... *g* I'm glad they didn't kill them off too though - leaves us so much more room to fiddle with our fics!

[squeeful.livejournal.com]

Still, Sebastian has Bodie being the strong, wise one at the end of that story too

Really?! And here I was thinking he was just being an arse. ;-P

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Lol - well I thought he was that too (*g*) but at least he didn't come over as a needy arse..!

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

>> Are you able to shake off any story and see the lads as you used to again, when watching an episode? <<
I might be the worst proof or the non-influence of fanfiction back on the episodes.
For I read and enjoy slash stories, but in the episodes B&D are still “just best friends”! :-)
I may be the same with the many ‘first time’, ‘first met’, or “Bodie’s background’ stories. You read it, you believe it at that time, but IMO there is no impact on the show!
And I immediately stop reading stories that are OOC for me! So there is no need to >> I find myself watching an episode or two, to get things back into perspective<<. For example I couldn’t imagine Doyle as a “heartless bastard”! If he would be really mean to Bodie, there would be some good reasons!

I think you take little (character) pieces of some good stories, and you built up your picture of B&D in your mind, but IMO these pieces are exactly “what you are looking for, but the writer is able to put it into nicer words”. (You know what I mean? Damn! I need a ghostwriter…)

>>to be Bodie is preferred and Doyle the one who’s just there or even disliked… <<
I don’t believe it. I think it’s just a little game between BBs and DDs.
I’m BB. But in younger days I preferred Doyle, and I still like him very much! I think they fit perfect together. One without the other wouldn’t be the same!
Btw.: I’ve got the impression that there are more DDs!? - so sometimes I feel the need to tell everybody how gorgeous BODIE is, and how boring that curly partner of him… (I’ve forgotten the name!) ;-)

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

I don’t believe it. I think it’s just a little game between BBs and DDs.

You could be right, but it doesn't always *sound* like a game, and I guess over the years and fandoms, I've gotten used to some fans just being vicious about the non-preferred characters.

I still remember going to my very first con (Star Trek) in Germany in the mid 80s, and man, were you in for it if you admitted to liking Kirk! :)

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

>>man, were you in for it if you admitted to liking Kirk! :)<<
??? Why that?
(O.K. - you got me on the wrong foot - I'm absolutely new to any kind of fandom!)

>>I've gotten used to some fans just being vicious about the non-preferred characters.<<
For me it's fun! And I really like Doyle!
(And I've never thought that it would be so much fun... Really! Someone could have told me!)
:-)

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

For some reason LJ had stopped sending me notifications for new replies!

Anyway, apparently at the time in ST:TOS (in Germany at least), you were only acceptable if you detested Kirk.

(And I've never thought that it would be so much fun... Really! Someone could have told me!)
I'm glad someone finally did!

I still remember getting our first computer and typing in "The Sentinel" in the late 90s. I practically was glued to the screen for hours!

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

°°apparently at the time in ST:TOS (in Germany at least), you were only acceptable if you detested Kirk.°°
Strange! That would be something like beeing in a Lassie fanclub and hating dogs...

I think it's much nicer with Pros, isn't it? :-)
(Although THEY have the strange imagination that Bodie and Doyle are a couple... Tse, tse, tse...)
:-)

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

(Although THEY have the strange imagination that Bodie and Doyle are a couple... Tse, tse, tse...)
:-)

I can't imagine where anyone gets that idea! ;)
Though I *was* once young and innocent and did see them just as very, very good friends!

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

Well, you know... I'm just a girl from the German country side (No! Not Sauerland! But nearly...) and I think I always stay young and innocent! :-)

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

LOL at your pair of icons! :D