Language and the Lads

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I was responding to a post over at ProsLit, and got a bit carried away with my research, so I thought I might post some of it over here as well/instead. Someone was wondering what in the world the Scottish characters in my story "Never the Words They Say" were talking about, because I'd written it as Scots dialect rather than "Queen's English", and in the course of searching for websites that might be interesting, and thinking back to why accent and dialect in the UK fascinate me, I remembered a show called Auf Wiedersehen Pet and the way I used to watch it in Australia, completely bemused, trying to figure out how that could possibly be English!

It was mostly about three brickies from Newcastle on Tyne, but other main characters were from Cornwall (I think - though he was supposed to live in Bristol), Liverpool (like LC!), Birmingham (like MS!) and London (where Pros is set!). And as I was browsing/reminiscing, I found this...

The bloke on the freezeframe at the start of the clip is a Brummie, like MS - Barry. The bloke with yellow on his hat (recognise him? *g*) is Moxie, from Liverpool, like LC/Bodie. Then there's Bomber (with the beard) from Cornwall (iirc)/lives in Bristol in the show, Wayne (nearly naked, sawing!) from London, and the three lads from Newcastle - Oz (pees in the bushes), Neville (red shirt) and Dennis (blue shorts).

So... why am I telling you all this? Good question... But it's kind of fun to think on the quite stiff way of speaking the lads were using in ODNT (just seen on The Big Communal Pros Watch), the more "natural" way they speak later on, the few moments when you can hear traces of their original accents, and then the way they might have been talking had they never lost/dropped those accents! Well, that's what I reckon... *g*

Oh, and in case anyone's interested/might find it useful for fic etc, there's a really useful website here, the Voices Project which is recording accents from various places and ages across the UK.

Comments

[solosundance.livejournal.com]

love the clip! Was it the original series or the reunion one ... I can't tell. The accents are fab ... some of them not the actors', like Timothy Spall (he certainly didn't play Fagin as Brummie in the recent Oliver Twist on the beeb!). My personal fave accent is the Geordie .... did you ever watch When the Boat Comes In? Have a soft spot for Belfast Irish too, ooh yes, and I love when LC plays the scouser down on his luck in Pros. Wish he'd done more of that ... oh well, that's what fic's for! Thanks also for the website - fascinating. Pros accents were a bit of a mish-mash really. They dropped a bit of sarf London in from time to time and MS was always more "northern". LC did "posh" more often too, didn't he? Hee, good stuff!

[londonronnie.livejournal.com]

Was it the original series or the reunion one ... I can't tell.

Got a feeling this was the second series, when they were doing up a villa in Spain. Then in the third one they were working on a big old delapidated country house (or was it the other way around?).

Timothy Spall (he certainly didn't play Fagin as Brummie in the recent Oliver Twist on the beeb!).

Nope, pretty sure that Tim Spall's a Sarf Londoner (Battersea, I think).

My personal fave accent is the Geordie ....

You want to come up here, you'd soon get sick of it *g*. You'll have to have a chat with my other 'alf sometime!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

The clip above's definitely not the original series set in Germany, I do know that! Timothy Spall is fab, isn't he - I missed him in Oliver Twist though. I like Geordie accents too! And Welsh, actually.

Lew so did "posh"! Ooh, maybe that's why... *thinks*... so, maybe Bodie and Doyle were the ones with the accent issues - or Doyle at least, especially back then! Cos actually most of the CI5 agents we see sound pretty public-school-hoorah to me, so maybe Doyle tended to put it on a bit, especially not long after he was teamed with Bodie, cos of the whole extra-competitive thing, because he felt as though he'd be looked down on for his background! Only of course, with Bodie at his side, all his anxieties were gone, and he relaxed into... everything. There. *g*

[squeeful.livejournal.com]

Oh good, I'm not the only one getting that vibe!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Heee! Definitely not! I always think Doyle's trying so hard, with alot of things, whereas Bodie's much more natural. I'm personally convinced that Bodie's from a relatively posh background, and Doyle's the one who's had to struggle up from the depths... *g*

[squeeful.livejournal.com]

Yeah, there's something about the way he moves, that "I'm here and I dare you to care" and balls-forward looseness. And, well, a temper like that doesn't form in a vacuum; someone's treated him like shit enough that it stuck.

[londonronnie.livejournal.com]

'ang abaht! You've responded to that post on ProsLit? *looks at ProsLit website...*

Yes, you have, haven't you... Bugger, I thought I hadn't had many emails since last night - I never got that post or the one that followed it! Aarrgh!!! How many other emails am I missing?

Anyway, re Auf Wiedersehn Pet - very fond memories of this show, being quite intimately acquainted with the Geordie working classes *g*. Oz (Jimmy Nail) was actually in the year below my other 'alf at school before he got expelled (Oz, that is, not himself...).

Oh, the Voices Project is brill, isn't it? I love it.

Right, off to check OE in case anything that hasn't appeared on gmail has got through to there...

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh, I so haven't been getting notifications from Yahell either - not even for that one. I was really peeved, I thought it'd got lost in the ether itself, which has happened twice to me now, but when I checked the message was there, just no notification... Stoopid Yahell.

Hee - I didn't know Jimmy Nail was expelled from school - what was it for?

[heliophile-oxon.livejournal.com]

Was very fond indeed of Auf Wiedersehen, Pet! - I especially loved the fact that they were from different regions with totally different accents. Too many favourite moments! But particularly happy memories of Neville (Kevin Whately) - being a Newcastle lad - suffering all the agonies of the damned when he had to spend almost an entire episode pretending to be a fervent Man U supporter. Oh, the pain! Brilliant.

PS very diffidently. Glaikit being an adjective, Cowley can't be "yon glaikit in the snae" - might he be "yon glaikit fuil i' the snae", perhaps?

[heliophile-oxon.livejournal.com]

I mean Peters (oops). Also, I just realised I've not posted this in the most appropriate of places - just remembered the word, and forgot where I was for a moment, sorry!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Wait... confused... who's Peters?!

And I don't mind you posting the glaikit thing here - it's about language! And I did say that the one post came from the other, so that's all good...

But - glaikit is a noun, as far as I'm aware... glaikit = fool? Where are you getting adjective?

[heliophile-oxon.livejournal.com]

I've heard it used (though not for years, so I didn't want to rely on my shaky memory alone) and found a lot of references to it as an adjective (stupid, foolish, thoughtless etc.) but - for the moment - only Wiktionary showing it as a noun as well (I haven't done a really exhaustive search, I must admit!).

Possibly the best source I've found so far is http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/ which has glaiks or glaikis as the noun (mocking deception, trickery OR a foolish person) but glaikit as the related adjective = senseless, foolish.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Hee - see my post below! *g*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh, interesting - now I'm googling it, it's saying it's an adjective not a noun, but when I was up in Edinburgh I remember a big tourism thing (hah!) where "glaikit" was on souvenirs etc as a noun... with the definition, which is where I got it from in the first place. When I googled to check to use in the story, I didn't look at what type of word it was, cos it was already in my head as that. Hah - wiki has "glaik" as the noun... You would pick the bit I got wrong right off, wouldn't you?! *g* Oh now I've found a discussion where someone else was picked up for using it as a noun (http://members.iinet.net.au/~dwomen/files/nlJuly2007.html), but further down a (Scottish I think) commenter also translates it as "daftie", so I shall go with that and assume that it might have been used irregularly in the heat of the moment! (Well, I did say on my original post that I probably got lots wrong... *g*)

[heliophile-oxon.livejournal.com]

More than good enough for me! *g* It's always fun having a root around for these things, though - I owe you a thankyou for setting me onto a good-looking dictionary I hadn't come across before!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Ah - you did see my post below as well! That'll teach me to reply via email - oh, and there the notification for this one has popped up while I'm typing this!

Interesting that wiktionary had it as a noun, I didn't see that one... Oh, the Dictionary of Scottish Language - now that I did use when I was writing Never the Words, but I didn't look up glaikit cos I was so sure! *headdesk* (And I didn't have it bookmarked on this computer, so thanks for the link!) Oh, interesting (again!) - the DSL has "glaik" as a verb, which is not at all what the websites I googled say - they put that as the noun - and "glaikis" as the noun... oh, except it doesn't then follow-up with an entry for "glaikis, but it has glaiker as the noun - is it any wonder I'm people are confused?! *g*

All of that said, it's good to know, but I'll not change the story to fix it - I don't really like the idea of going back through history and altering things, even if it means I look less stupid! *g* Shall know for next time though - thanks!

[angel-ci5.livejournal.com]

it's kind of fun to think on the quite stiff way of speaking the lads were using in ODNT, the more "natural" way they speak later on, the few moments when you can hear traces of their original accents, and then the way they might have been talking had they never lost/dropped those accents!

BC declared that there should be no "Cockney of pronounced accents of any kind (particularly regional)", so maybe that had some bearing on their accents (or lack of them). Cowley was obviously the exception!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I remember reading that (was that from you?! *g*) - and personally I love the idea that LC and MS started doing it to piss him off... though I don't suppose it's true for a minute, it's just me not liking what I've seen of Brian Clemens. Just as well he brought us Pros, it's the only thing that lowers his wankdom for me... *g*

Ooh, maybe that's why the other CI5 agents all do speak in good old Queen's English - if they wanted more work they had to obey the rules, whereas the lads were able to do what they wanted to some extent... Hmmn... *g*

[angel-ci5.livejournal.com]

Not sure where you read it, it's printed on the cover of the scripts, along with BC's name.

Was it because of the prospect of the show going out in the States, and BC thought Americans may not understand regional accents...?

[crimson-37.livejournal.com]

Probably not much to do with this, but the scouse accent, what is it about the scouse accent. It does something to my knees, they tend to melt and fail to hold me up properly. Oh yes, and I had heard the thing about BC and accents. *g*