Ethnic Slur in Pros Fic

[tinturtle]

So, I've recently read two Pros fics from the 1980s in which the Lads use a word that I had understood to be quite offensive.

That word is Paki/Pakkie. In Whisper of a Kill by Lois Welling (Ann Barrister), from 1987, both Bodie and Doyle refer to the "Pakkie maid." In The Price of a Soul by Jane Carnall and Ann Johnson, from 1989, Bodie mentions a "Paki shop."

I'm curious about what I should understand from the presence of this word. I can think of a number of possibilities.

a) The word was not considered offensive in the 1980s. (Or it was, but that fact had not yet been absorbed by the white majority.)
b) The word was considered offensive in the 1980s, but that was a relatively recent development, so its use was meant to be a cue that the stories were set in the past.
c) The word had been considered offensive for some time, and its use was meant to say something about the Lads' characters, e.g. that they were frank racists or that they were people who considered it unnecessary to use respectful language (at least when speaking with other white people).
d) The word was considered offensive in the 1980s, but the authors were non-British and didn't know that. (Jane Carnall is Scottish, so that explanation isn't applicable to at least one of the stories.)
e) The word was considered offensive in the 1980s, and the authors were either frank racists or people who considered it unnecessary to use respectful language, who wrote the Lads speaking as they would.
f) Something else.

Can anyone, especially any of the British fans, shed light on this?

Comments

[unbelievable2.livejournal.com]

Pros started in the 1970s, and its idiom (the screenplays) is rooted in that period. This term (together with the "n" word) would have been used then very generally by British white people, both consciously, to cause offence, and unconsciously, simply as a generally accepted figure of speech. It has taken a lot of years to ingrain in people that terms like these are offensive. It doesn't stop people still using the word (especially in older age-groups, with an established world view), but at least now it's not regarded as acceptable (and depending on the circumstances may be prosecutable), whereas in the Pros era it would have been commonplace.

One also has to be aware of the history of Britain in the 1960s and 70s, with widespread violent discrimination against people of colour and the activities of far right groups such as the National Front, and skinhead gangs perpetrating violence on South Asian people. "Paki" would be a term seen frequently by people (press, TV news, graffiti, slogans) even if they didn't use it themselves.

I'm assuming that the authors, if they were truly familiar with the 1970s and Pros idiom through the scripts, were reflecting that, in using the term. If they were setting their story in the mid to late 70s, say, there is a justification of sorts. That changes in later years, so in a story set later it could be problematical. By the late 80s what was and what was not acceptable was far more clearly perceived and attitudes had changed.

However, speaking personally, I think if I had been writing Pros fic in 1989, I would have found another way to convey the idiom, without losing the sense of period.

[tinturtle]

One also has to be aware of the history of Britain in the 1960s and 70s, with widespread violent discrimination against people of colour and the activities of far right groups such as the National Front, and skinhead gangs perpetrating violence on South Asian people.

Yes, I was reading about that today while researching this term. Thank you for the information and thoughts.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

"Paki shop" was still being used in mid-1980s Manchester, although people who used it tended to be frowned at by anyone a bit more enlightened/thoughtful. It wasn't always intentionally offensive, I think most people thought they were just being descriptive - they were talking about their local corner shop, which were often family businesses run by people descended/from Pakistan (or, I strongly suspect India or nearby Asian countries, as I doubt anyone who used "Paki" bothered to actually find out where anyone was from). Which of course is exactly why is is offensive... It wasn't limited to older people either - I heard plenty of young people (my age at the time!) using it. I might use it in a fic these days to convey characterisation (if it was set at the time), but obviously not as something acceptable - rather like we see Doyle and Cowley frown at Bodie using "spade" in Klansman. I can see Bodie using it, as we do see him being casually/unthinkingly racist in the eps (unless he Learns His Lesson in Klansman of course, although I have a feeling we hear him use "spade" in other later eps too). I'd guess that was where Jane Carnall was going with that, especially as I get the impression she was a generally intelligent and aware writer - reflecting Bodie's casual racism, which was a sign of his age/the times etc. I know we don't like to think of either of our lads like that, but there you go - its canon.

I've never heard anyone talk naturally about a "Pakkie maid" or the like - if the speaker (writer) was British then I'd say that was intended to be more consciously racist/derrogatory, and reflect the character that way. The same way that Bodie is portayed as intentionally racist in Klansman, that sort of thing. The spelling of it is wrong though - it would "normally" be "Paki" short for Pakistani (as per the JC story), and I don't think Lois Welling/Ann Bannister is British, so its harder to guess the intention... Although I've just gone to look it up, since you gave the story title, and - just no. I think this is a case of the authors not having either the correct usage or the correct characterisation, because it's Doyle who uses it. We've seen Doyle frown at Bodie using a racist word, I just can't see him using a racist word himself. Which isn't to say he doesn't have his own level of casual racism - I always cringe when he says in Need to Know "Chinese are like that. They respect authority.", or in Female Factor and various other eps defining a black person owning a big American car as clearly "a pimp" - lumping an entire nation, and any black man together as single stereotypes - the very definition of racism, although I suspect he'd be taken aback if it was pointed out to him, and protest, and then think, and then agree with you! (Whereas Bodie seems fairly unapologetic about it all). Doyle is conscious of racism in a way that Bodie's not though, and so I can't see him describing someone like that. Also, in the fic Doyle is going out of his way to defend the maid and stop her being treated badly — again, it clashes that he would then use a racist term about her himself (not impossible for some people, but as per his canon reactions in Klansman etc., I can't see it in Doyle.

That's my take, anyway. *g*

[tinturtle]

Yes, I agree that using a racial slur is much more in keeping with Bodie's canon characterization than Doyle's, which is part of what started me wondering if there might be more to understand about its presence in these fics. Your interpretation that it was an error on Lois Welling/Ann Barrister's part and an informed choice on Jane Carnall's seems to fit the facts, though.

[tinturtle]

I don't think Lois Welling/Ann Bannister is British

OTOH, I just ran across the sentence, "With that he excused himself, leaving ray sat at the bar sipping his Scotch." The use of "sat" rather than "sitting" is characteristic of British English, although possibly it is found in other Commonwealth countries, too.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Nope - I entirely disagree! I've also seen this usage claimed recently by someone on an author blog, and I sat here thinking no, that's surely not right, not in my experience..., and then saw that the actual author (who used to work in publishing) had replied to also say "No, that's not true..." So I suspect it's another misinterpretation of usage.

I used "I sat here thinking..." above on purpose, which is a common use. I'm not saying that no Brit would ever use "leaving Ray sat at the bar...", but it would depend hugely on the other linguistic nuances of the speaker/writer, and it be far more usual to say "leaving Ray sitting at the bar..." For me, it doesn't sit naturally with "With that he excused himself..." which is more formal than "leaving ray sat at" - it reads as a mismatch to me, and jars slightly. Something like "He took himself off, leaving Ray sat at the bar..." would work more naturally - both sides informal.

I've just messaged someone to double-check about where LW/AB is from. *g*

[tinturtle]

Hm. I have never heard a fellow American say "I was sat" or "I was stood" (unless someone else had placed them), but I have run into it in commercially published books from the UK.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Like I say, people will use similar forms, but the context you quoted above didn't sound at all right to me, and it's very context-dependent.

Oh, and also - reply that LW/AB is American!

[tinturtle]

A string search for "was sat" in my Pros story archives shows that ILWB, Gloria Lancaster, and Dawnwind (dawnebeth) have all used that construction in multiple stories. Dawnwind is American. I'm curious whether this is something she would say in real life or whether she is imitating perceived British usage.

Oh, and also - reply that LW/AB is American!

Well then. It could be a regional thing, I suppose, though my reaction to it remains "nobody says that."

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I hate to say it, but Gloria Lancaster is American too! ILWB is definitely English though.

Language is so mixed these days too, with the internet on top of tv and films and so on, we pick things up from each other all the time! And even before the internet - I remember my class at school being hugely amused by another Year 10 class who was visiting for Interschool Sports Day. They were describing everything as "dead" - "dead good", "dead funny" etc. None of us had ever come across this before, and I didn't come across it again, even in books I read - until I moved to the UK where everything was "dead" something-or-other! It was totally British slang, and it had managed to find its way to one small rural town in Australia, but not to our one, which was only about 30-40 miles away, and it was modern enough at the time that it hadn't been written into any of the books I bought/read etc. (including the Pros novelisations, which I discovered and devoured! *g*)

I remember a huge debate on lj way back when, too, about whether Brits would use "pants" to mean trousers. People were adamant that they wouldn't, and although I knew my mum did, I thought that perhaps she'd picked it up in Australia in that case - until someone from north-east England came on and said yeah, "pants" meant "trousers" (not underwear) up there too. (Mind you, the people most heatedly saying that Brits used "pants" for underwear, not for trousers, were also Americans, iirc!) But as you say, there's so much regionalism in everything too. *g*

[tinturtle]

I hate to say it, but Gloria Lancaster is American too!

Fanlore says she was British.

I feel like we had almost exactly this conversation about the word "muffler," although there we decided that it might be dated rather than regional.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Interesting - I wonder if I've mixed her up with someone... Again, I know someone I can ask... *vbg*

And hee - I think you're right about the muffler conversation!! And yeah, definitely dated not regional, that one. *g*

RE: The P and G word

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

My fav that I hear all the time on telly in current UK based series is I'll catch you up. Makes me smile because is have a vision of somebody being chased with a big net and scooped up. But so much language is regional. We've had this discussion many times in S&H because California beach slang of the 70s was so different than any other part of the US. Nobody can know every thing slang expression even with google today. :)

Dead boring - I've heard that one here. You have to roll your eyes and say that something is dead boring. Teenagers are good for that!

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

Another term what I once thought was kind of cute and used it in a story because I didn't realise it was offensive is bionic golly. I had no idea what it was being American. Somebody told me it was a doll with curly hair and I thought Bodie was teasing (which he probably was, but still...). I did learn on my own when Wikpedia started putting up just about everything, and learned it was a specific black doll and the term isn't used with consideration by the general public. Whether Bodie meant it as offensive in his tone isn't clear but I still don't care to use it any more.

Bodie does use racist terms and I hate that about him. I would have liked to ask the writer(s) why they felt that was an important part of his character. In Klansmen, he's supposedly "cured" but he uses his slurs later on too. Can we think that when this was airing it would make him more like the normal people? I hate to even think so, even then.

But... I always use Northern Ireland as an example. The people there are all the same, same DNA for heaven's sake, yet they build 30 foot ghetto walls for "safety" from each other. We will never, ever have any sort of racial harmony if people with the same DNA and who look the same can't get along, let along people with different skin colours. Sorry. Way too political for fandom. I love the lads but I despise that part of Bodie.

I don't find that because Pros was in the 70s, that's any excuse to use racist or bigoted terms. I don't forgive the writers for writing them or even the actors for not protesting to the point that they were removed or changed in some way. IMHO, of course, since I have absolutely no power! I think I understand why Klansmen was made (showing how terrible racism is) and I do believe it was made with good intentions. It's just hard to watch and I would have written it without one of the main characters being racist. I've heard it makes the character more human but I'd rather not have that human as a role model overall.

Way too much rambling!

[tinturtle]

I think Bodie was likening Ray to a fluffy-haired rag doll, not directly to the racial caricature the doll represents (which would be weird). I would also avoid repeating that quip in my fanfic, though, if I ever write any more.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I'd definitely like to read your fanfiction - do write more! *vbg*

[tinturtle]

I tell myself little fannish stories all the time, but generally they aren't anything I think would make a good fic. Something worth developing may come to me someday, however. (I'd really like to write for the Big Bang, though I reckon I should write some more shorter things first.)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

In 1980s England most people would have just thought of a golliwog, or golly, as a cute children's toy, and not had much clue about it referring to anything racist. Growing up, I certainly didn't associate them with real people any more than I associated talking teddy bears or china dolls with real people, nor did my friends, and most people wouldn't have. I don't even think its origin was consciously racist, but of course it was entirely based on racist stereotypes, and now that's more widely understood and known, they're not seen as cute any more.

So Bodie might have been shown as racist in other ways (and like you I do wish he hadn't been, but of course I wish that about everyone), but a teasing name like "the bionic golly" wouldn't have been thought of as having any connection with race at the time, it was entirely riffing off Doyle's curly hair - apart from being black, a golliwog had very curly hair.

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

Yes, I like to think it was cute and about Ray's hair rather than a slur.

The P and G word

[swiftwings62.livejournal.com]

Both "Pakki" and "Golly" are slang terms that have been used in different contexts and geographical regions. However, it's important to understand that these words may have been used in offensive and derogatory ways, often being associated with racial and cultural stereotypes.

"Pakki" is an ethnic slur that has been used in the UK to refer to people of Pakistani origin. It was particularly prevalent in the 70s and 80s during a time of heightened racial tension. The term is generally regarded as offensive and disrespectful. Its usage has significantly decreased due to growing cultural sensitivity and awareness, and it's generally not socially acceptable to use today.

"Golly" is a bit more complicated. It has been used in several different ways. One common usage is as an exclamation of surprise or amazement, similar to "gosh" or "wow". This usage isn't typically considered offensive.

However, the term "Golly" is also associated with a character known as the "Golliwog", which was a blackface doll that originated in the late 19th century and became a popular children's toy in Europe, (I remember the golly on jam jars), particularly in the UK. This character is considered racially insensitive and offensive due to its origins in minstrel shows and its perpetuation of negative racial stereotypes. Because of this association, usage of the term "Golly" in this context has significantly decreased and it's widely considered unacceptable to use today. Of course! But there are some that use it for a slur, I was at a party a while back and they said that it was "woke" and that they were not allowed to use it, they were a bunch f typical ex-pat Brits, I said it was racist not woke. Dont think I shall be invited back. But I wouldn't waste my time.

I remember hearing both, growing up in the Midlands, in the 60s and 70s... I had no idea why as a child, I had assumed Pakki was short for Pakistani, and thus, not knowing anything about racial slurs! If you watch programs from that era it's quite shocking the amount of "slurs" that are thrown around.

Programs back then used different and acceptable languages that are no longer acceptable these days. And rightly so.