A Doyle thing to think about continued

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I ended up AWOL from the continuing discussion yesterday, but since the thread below has hit 103 which means it has that irritating tendency to concertina, and since a new thread for continuation was requested, I thought I'd post this one. Everyone's bound to go all quiet now... *g*

Some interesting (I think!) thoughts/questions/wonderments from the previous thread (backwards from the bottom of the old thread), in all sorts of directions:

shootingtokill: Another thought on Doyle's supposed selfishness: Doyle is often the one who feeds Bodie or who is expected to feed him...He supplies him with a sandwich in Cry Wolf; brings a 'pressie' or something drink/food in the one where Bodie is acting on surveillance; Bodie looks for some breakfast in his fridge in Hunter-Hunted (doyle's only got stale bread but the onus is on him to toast it!); Doyle searches out a bottle of whisky for Cowley in Fall Girl (out of some boxes in his flat); and yes, he actually cooks him a meal in Involvement. Even though I feel deep down that Bodie's not mean, I don't remember him catering for anyone apart from making Frances a cup of comforting tea in Dead Reckoning. I'm sure there are more examples of Doyle and I'll go think on it.

hgdoghouse: From the pov of a very old writer thinking about writing Pros again I think my perspective has changed to the degree that because it's so much easier actually to see the episodes, thanks to the DVDs, that I have various episode-based ideas I'd like to play with, if they're not too much hard work on the action/adventure front. When I first started the idea of an organisation like CI5 was enough to make me break out - I still loathe the idea of it in theory, but can let it slide more.

I'm not so bothered by how thick Cowley is in some of the episodes.
I had this ridiculous hangup about not being able to write them as a committed pair until after the various women had vanished from their lives - certainly post Involvement. Now I think I'll be able to play with whatever episode takes my fancy and not worry about the 'running order'so much - unless, of couse, it suits a story idea... Do other people have stuff like that which affects what sort of story they can, or want to, write?

magentablue: Interesting though where such ideas come from - it would be fab if everyone here today wrote what their particular fanon is with the characters and why, maybe that would shed some light on it!

Many, many other interesting points/discussion threads below, if anyone'd like to carry them over to this post...*g*

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Isn't D's generosity in buying B a sandwich tempered by the fact it's liver sausage, which he know B doesn't like. Plus as one who could've written a treatise on London sandwich bars after 20 years of relying on them, liver sausage wasn't exactly common on the varied menus.

D even plies C with strong drink in Fall Girl.

B pays for the orange spiked with vodka for D (still blanking on episode), and does he pay for the fizzy drinks in Stakeout?
And isn't he the one who pays for the ice creams in Blackout?
And after he stitched up D into taking over his obbo duty didn't he take him a flask of coffee?
On the basis of which, D supplies the food while B tries to get him legless...

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I've got to admit, I always think the liver sausage is him totally taking the piss too, but as shootingtokill says, he is still spending the money, which presumably he wouldn't if he was all tight with his money...

Bodie buys the orange for D, but that's his round after D's just bought him an expensive cocktail! But they were drinking when the scene began, so presumably Bodie'd bought that round... but again, Doyle didn't blanch at the cocktail (really!) and it's Bodie who at least pretends to appear tight-fisted by not buying Doyle a "proper" drink - even though he has really. (And totally off-topic, I love that Doyle drinks it and (presumably) pretends complete obliviousness to what was in it - the whole one-upmanship of it!)

I think Bodie brings a flask of coffee and something in a paper bag in Hijack? Oh, and the drinks in Stakeout...

On the basis of which, D supplies the food while B tries to get him legless...
Ha! Perfect! *vbg*

And I've been off hoovering up spiders for an hour in the hope it would remind me of other times when they've bought each other things, but strangely enough it hasn't helped at all... *g*

[hgdoghouse.livejournal.com]

So sorry, the anonymous post was me. Could've sworn I was logged in.

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Isn't D's generosity in buying B a sandwich tempered by the fact it's liver sausage, which he know B doesn't like

I think there was definitely an element of Doyle 'taking the piss' but even so, it was Doyle who put his hand in his pocket and bought it and he does seem to be saying to Bodie 'go on, eat it' as if he *needs* to eat something. And yes, the ice-cream scene is an example which I'd forgotten but I think there was more than a bit of Bodie *wanting* an ice-cream himself and couldn't leave out the others! It didn't come across as Bodie nurturing Doyle which is the impression I get from scenes like the one in the fish and chip shop in Civil Servant where Bodie seems to be waiting to be fed like a schoolboy. The fizzy drinks....yeah, it seems as if Bodie is the one who comes up with buying the drinks - the macho thing to do - whereas Doyle seems better on the catering (or at least, food supplying) front. They've each got their own talents?

[hgdoghouse.livejournal.com]

This food/drink nurturing idea is really interesting, and not something I'd ever thought about before. I can see it's something else I'm going to be looking out for *g*.
I think they've definitely got complimentary talents and personality quirks, which is why they mesh so beautifully.
From memory, Bodie's nurturing seems more geared to the physical stuff - in workouts with Martin (Rogue) and Towser (Purging) he says something to the effect of that's dirty when D puts up his wrists to stop Martin stamping on his face, and again with Towser. Not sure if what I see as B in protective mode is me with my fangirl hat on or not.
Then, as already mentioned by Byslantedlight, B carries the bags and while I see that as part of their ongoing windups of each other it must have started somewhere, albeit off-screen.
I don't know what the ratio of who saves who's life is, pretty even I would have thought. And providing some lovely moments.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I don't know what the ratio of who saves who's life is, pretty even I would have thought.
Hee - there was a big count-off of saving lives in a post a while ago, I personally thought it came out pretty even myself, although I kept being told it didn't! *stomps foot and insists it was* *g* It all seemed to depend on what people counted as "being saved", and whether the fact that Doyle seemed to get into trouble more often in the first place meant anything...

Bodie's nurturing seems more geared to the physical stuff
D'you know I thought that for ages, and then I noticed little moments where Doyle got really physical with Bodie when he'd been hurt - like at the end of Close Quarters, where he practically pushes one woman out of the way to put his own hands on Bodie, and make sure he's okay, and Bodie virtually has to shrug him off in the end; and in... erm... can't remember, but when the ambulance they're transporting someone in is attacked - Doyle jumps out to attack and defend and all, but at the end he realises that Bodie's inside and may not be okay - we get a big roar of "Bodie!" and he leaps in and throws himself on him, arms around him again to reassure himself he's still okay! *g* So I'm not sure the ratio of Bodie-touching to Doyle-touching is all that uneven either, now... Which, yeay. *vbg*

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

I don't know what the ratio of who saves who's life is, pretty even I would have thought.

Hee - there was a big count-off of saving lives in a post a while ago, I personally thought it came out pretty even myself, although I kept being told it didn't! *stomps foot and insists it was* *g* It all seemed to depend on what people counted as "being saved", and whether the fact that Doyle seemed to get into trouble more often in the first place meant anything...


Yes, Jesus, don't bring THAT up again. SL and I nearly came to blows. I still can't figure out how she can have watched the same episodes I did....

Truthfully, the most interesting part of that debate (to me) was why it seemed so important - why it does seem important to so many fans -- that things like that be absolutely equal between D&B. There's a need for symmetry that I find fascinating; the implication being that if Doyle were rescued more often he might be perceived as "requiring" it -- and thus less capable, less competent, less manly than Bodie -- even though the circumstances of his being rescued (with maybe the sole exception of DiaG) have more to do with timing or bad luck than his abilities.

(And, of course, my assumption is that the number of off-screen adventures equalizes their rescues, so in a sense, I suppose I do agree that the number of saves are ultimately equal.) *g*

Speaking of memes, though, would it be a correct assumption that in fan fiction Doyle is rescued more than Bodie? That Doyle is more frequently on the "hurting" end than the "comforting" end? Or is this impression based on the order I've read stories in -- or even my favorite stories/authors.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Heeee!

was why it seemed so important - why it does seem important to so many fans -- that things like that be absolutely equal between D&B
Well, I can see that that's a fair question, but the problem with asking it of me was that it wasn't whether Doyle requires being a rescued so many times that was the question for me, it was that I absolutely didn't see that in the canon - my perception was that he saves Bodie an equal amount of times. So the interesting bit to me (as ever!) was how we had such different perceptions in the first place.

Something that squeeful pointed out on the previous thread:
Ah, and there you have to be very very careful otherwise you run into something else prevalent in fandom: misogyny. (Yes, women can be misogynistic.) Doyle may be the more physically and emotionally nurturing one but that a) does not make him the weepy wifey or b) is not intrinsically a bad thing. The feminine is not evil. Just be careful not to slide either way into weepiness nor eliminate entirely more "feminine" characteristics.

Which I entirely agree with. Whether or not we do see Doyle as "the more physically and emotionally nurturing one" is only part of the story, it's what's done/thought about those characteristics that affects the fic - the way it's written and read, and that's going to be based on each individual's own personal experiences, of course. Which is interesting in its own turn...

Does make me wonder, mind, what Clemens/the writers had in mind by making Doyle the one with more bad timing/luck than Bodie seemed to have. His rescues certainly involved being beaten and tied up far more than Bodie's did - so what were the writers thinking about his character...

Seems to me that it's definitely Doyle who's hurt more than Bodie in Prosfic - and I'm quite probably guilty of that myself too. My only personal excuse is that he suffers so prettily... (*is a bad, bad person*).

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

Does make me wonder, mind, what Clemens/the writers had in mind by making Doyle the one with more bad timing/luck than Bodie seemed to have. His rescues certainly involved being beaten and tied up far more than Bodie's did - so what were the writers thinking about his character...

I agree. The other thing is that Doyle seems to -- and I'm not going to phrase this right because I'm only now formulating the thought -- be the subject of the most emotionally intense (emotionally profound?) episodes.

It's Doyle who we see fall deeply hopelessly for Ann Holly. I mean, not really, but it's the only romantic relationship that truly gets explored in the series -- and it fails ostensibly because of CI5 and what it has made of him. (Fall Girl really seems to be more about the machinations between departments and countries -- hence the title).

And then in DiaG, we get this Christlike martyr thing going on where he nearly dies, can't seem to make up his mind whether to live, blah, blah, blah -- but, although Bodie is probably equally injured in Klansmen, we don't get that same insight into his dreams (other than the fact that he appears to hallucinate he's back in a Mission hospital) and he doesn't seem to be suffering any life or death doubts.

Even Hunter/Hunted -- it's a very personal episode. Of course, so is Fall Girl and The Man Who Never Was or whatever it's called, so maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree.

Seems to me that it's definitely Doyle who's hurt more than Bodie in Prosfic - and I'm quite probably guilty of that myself too. My only personal excuse is that he suffers so prettily... (*is a bad, bad person*).

Hmm. I wonder. I've heard that before -- the he-suffers-so-beautifully thing, but IS that it? Or is there something in their dynamic -- or in Doyle's character? Or maybe I'm thinking of him visually suffering, but that's really not what's meant?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Hmmn - I'll have to think about this too! (I'd give the caveat that I'm thinking out loud for now, but that's what I do all the time, so... *g*) My first reaction is that there are definitely alot of Bodie-centric episodes - Where the Jungle Ends, Close Quarters, Wild Justice, Fall Girl, Man Without A Past, Kickback etc - but are they "emotionally intense" eps? Trouble is, it's going to depend on what an individual sees as "emotionally intense" or "profound", isn't it?! I mean, Bodie has a very emotionally intense moment in Stakeout, at the beginning, but I wouldn't say that was one of "his" eps - does it make it any less worthy of note? I wouldn't say so... On the other hand, you could say that Fall Girl was about the politics of the situation rather than Bodie's relationship with Marikka, but I think you'd get alot of argument from people (probably me too, thinking about it!) as a result of the final scene. Is Bodie so upset at the end about the politics of it, or about the fact that a woman he loved is now dead because of it, and perhaps partly because of her involvement with him?

I think the way the actors play the characters has alot to do with it. MS puts meaning into his breathing, so that he seems very effected by their life throughout the series, I think. LC had a more subtle characterisation to work with (she says, generously to the writers!) and if you miss the flare of a nostril or the single intake of a breath sometimes then you miss Bodie's entire reaction to some things, and it might seem as though his character is being much colder about things.

Hmmn, thinking about Bodie vs Doyle -centric stories now..! (Wonder if this spacing'll work out?!)

Bodie
Where the Jungle Ends
Close Quarters
Man Without A Past
Fall Girl
Kickback

Doyle
When the Heat Cools Off
Hunter Hunted
Runner
Involvement
Discovered in a Graveyard

Hmmn - have I missed anything out? But again it's all interpretation - are Kickback and Where the Jungle Ends Bodie-centric because they involve his old friends etc? And Doyle doesn't know about whosis until the very end of Runner, so does that count?!

As for Doyle suffering prettily - well, what do I mean by "prettily", do I mean in an "attractive" way, what do I find attractive about his appearance on those occasions, is it a nurturing thing etc... Quite honestly I don't think so, for me. As in the icon I've used, when he's supposed to be suffering he tends to be unshaven, and the focus of his face is his eyes, which tend to be very expressive at those moments, and perhaps his mouth, likewise so. Three things I find rather attractive about him... *g* Present me with that in real life and I wouldn't be thinking - ooh yeay, I can take care of him, and love him and pet him and stroke him and... (*g*), I'd be thinking - right, yuck, where do we start, okay the blood... But maybe that's not what you meant - you said "something in their dynamic -- or in Doyle's character" about him suffering "prettily"? (Though I'd say Doyle can suffer prettily when he's all on his very own... *g*)

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

but are they "emotionally intense" eps? Trouble is, it's going to depend on what an individual sees as "emotionally intense" or "profound", isn't it?!

Right, but I'm thinking -- developing my earlier thought about catalyst episodes. Because I'd agree that as far as character-centric eps go, it's evenly divided. Intense moments, ditto.

But it appears to me -- and I could be wrong about this -- that Involvement and DiaG in particular -- seem to have sparked more fics than any other episodes (for episode based fics, that is), which strikes me that many many writers view them as profound or -- maybe a better term -- emotional turning points within the series. Or at least for writing fics.

But then that could tie back to my impression that Doyle (and his varous sufferings) seem to dominate so much fic. OR maybe these are the stories I best remember. Maybe I actually like them best without having recognized it -- or maybe they irritate me and that's why I remember them. *g*

Or maybe I'm just thinking about it too much.

[azdak.livejournal.com]

Apologies for the drive-by nature of this comment. This is a very interesting discussion,and I hoe you don't mind a total stranger chipping in with their two cents worth?

Does make me wonder, mind, what Clemens/the writers had in mind by making Doyle the one with more bad timing/luck than Bodie seemed to have.

My guess would be that, when it comes down to it, Martin Shaw has - to put it bluntly - a wider range as an actor. Lewis Collins is great at the everyday interaction, but starts to get out of his depth when it comes to the extremes. I love Bodie to bits, mind, but I do get kind of embarrassed at some of the more "intense" scenes.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

No apologies needed, drive-by total strangers very welcome here. *g* (Tuppences are something else I need in abundance, but that's a whole different thing...)

I suspect you're right about it being something to do with the actors' ranges too, and I know what you mean about the "intense" scenes - I wince at Klansmen every time, no matter how much I like it for many other reasons... Bodie does do some lovely "everyday" interaction though, I think - things that seem so natural you almost miss them... Then again, (*thinks more*) he was given "intense" scenes throughout the series - it's just that Doyle was more likely to be bashed around!

Actually, I did see MS in that episode of "Beasts", and there was one part where he was obviously told to "look very scared", and so he did - it was so bad that I decided he must have been fed up and taking the mick to get himself through the scene... *g* But it's true that normally every breath he takes seems to have meaning...

[squeeful.livejournal.com]

If there's one thing I learned from that failed directing class it was: do not piss off your actors because they can make you look really stupid.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

LMAO!!

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

Hope you don't mind me coming in here, but I just wanted to say that although I do know what you mean about acting abilities and sometimes Lewis seemed to try too hard in certain scenes, I do think he was excellent at comedy and probably better at it then MS; and also very convincing when the part required him to be menacing (especially when it came to menacing women!).

Just my humble opinion.....

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yeay for people coming in!

I think they both have cringe-y moments at times in Pros - I hate it when MS is ad-libbing (I'm sure it's ad-libbing!) that thing about the gymnast - "I don't want any more of that"! It's sounds so much like he's doing comedy *shudders*.

I wonder if it's to do with their apparent( to me as a fan!) natures - MS seems more serious about acting, so when he has to do it seriously it comes across most naturally, whereas LC seems to have had the attitude that he'd take it up because it was good fun, and better than selling whatever-it-was out of a van, and so when he's having fun with it - not having to act in a sort of serious, full-of-effort manner, that's when he comes over as more natural...?!

[azdak.livejournal.com]

Sounds an entirely plausible theory to me ;-)

[squeeful.livejournal.com]

Acting is hard, really hard. It's a very vulnerable profession emotionally. Because I can guarantee you that during those revealing scenes, there are about 20 people behind the camera drinking coffee and watching you.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

That's one of the fascinations of actors for me, in a way - on the one hand you get people who genuinely don't seem to want to be in a bubble all the time, as "celebrities" (MS and many others) but on the other hand the nature of their job is a bubble in many many other ways... As if they have their own cut off point (well, I suppose we all do) as to how vulnerable, and in what way, they can appear where... but it generally seems further out than many of us "normal" people, and yet not nearly as far as the "celeb" types who may not have any talent in front of all those people at all - and don't seem to care!

[azdak.livejournal.com]

Not that there's much point being an actor if nobody's watching you...

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

I wonder if it's to do with their apparent( to me as a fan!) natures - MS seems more serious about acting, so when he has to do it seriously it comes across most naturally, whereas LC seems to have had the attitude that he'd take it up because it was good fun, and better than selling whatever-it-was out of a van, and so when he's having fun with it - not having to act in a sort of serious, full-of-effort manner, that's when he comes over as more natural...?!

Yeah, I definitely think that MS takes his profession very seriously and that maybe Lewis just takes life (everything) less seriously. Having said that, I think he must have put quite an effort into cuckoo waltz, though, cos 'Gavin' is such a different character to anything else he's done.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Well it's different to other tv and film stuff he's done - I wish I could've seen him in pantomime sometime, that seems rather Gavin-ish, somehow! I've got to say though that I think Cuckoo Waltz might be the second-best thing he's done actually (after Pros, of course - and that I've seen so far) - to me he seemed alot more natural in that, looser somehow, even in the way that he completely seemed to throw his body around, and didn't mind us seeing so much skin - he seemed much more restrained in later parts, somehow, and I wonder if it was the more serious acting that was part of it.

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I always thought he looked a bit tense, tired and fedup towards the end of Pros and very, very relaxed and natural in things like cuckoo and Jack the Ripper. I also think he's very comfortable acting alongside other men like MS or Michael Caine - he makes a good sidekick or buddy.

I forgot the pantos......

[azdak.livejournal.com]

I do think he was excellent at comedy

Oh yes, excellent comic timing, and he absolutely inhabits the role most of the time. But it stirkes me as being what John Wayne called "behaving rather than acting" (though as we all know that never did John Wayne's career any harm), on on those occasions when he's called on to act rather than behave, things can get a little sticky.

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Although isn't comedy acting supposed to be the hardest thing to do well? And I'd say his role of 'Gavin' in Cuckoo Waltz required a bit more from him than behaving because it was such a different role for him to play (and he did it well).

(And sorry, I'm also noblesentiments!)

[azdak.livejournal.com]

isn't comedy acting supposed to be the hardest thing to do well

It depends if the actor's naturally good at comedy or not - if they aren't, it's incredibly hard to learn. And conversely, some find it difficult to tap strong emotions without tipping over into obvious "acting".

'Gavin' in Cuckoo Waltz

I don't think I've ever seen that - but it was a frothy comedy, wasn't it? It doesn't sound like a series that regulalrly put its characters through the wringer...

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

I think even if you have a natural talent for something you probably still have to work at it.

I'm not sure how you define 'frothy' - it certainly wasn't to my taste, but having said that, and to be fair to Lew, whether it was demanding or not (and I suppose you'd have to see it first to make a fair judgement) he could still have made a complete cockup of the part which I don't think he did (in fact I think he was one of the best things in it, one of the redeeming things!) And if it *was* very frothy with a poor script (*if* as I'm not sure) it might be even harder to make it funny.....

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Bodie's nurturing seems more geared to the physical stuff

You've just reminded of one thing which was brief but spoke volumes and that was Bodie in The Rack just after Doyle delivers the fatal punch to Coogan, around that time Bodie is saying something like he *did* warn you but he's also clenching and unclenching his fists as if to say, 'just give me the chance and I'll kill you (for Doyle)' and I *love* that - it's so Bodie. *And* in The Fugitive in the library scene just after Bodie asks the German terrorist about a book on birds and the terrorist seems to be leaving, Doyle walks up and says 'excuse me, sir' and then immediately you've got Bodie coming up behind the German, balancing on the balls of his feet, squaring up to him, *itching* to get at him, and at that point I always get the impression that Bodie is *there* for Doyle - his protector - backing him up as always.

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Thanks for opening this thread. I originally asked for a new page cos I thought the discussion was going so swingingly on Friday night and hopefully would have carried on the same way on Saturday, but it seems to have died a natural death.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yeah, sorry about that - I didn't see the comment until I got back from various things, and then I wasn't sure if anyone was saying anything any more, and then I just thought yeah, but it's interesting anyway... So here we are. *g*

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

I had this ridiculous hangup about not being able to write them as a committed pair until after the various women had vanished from their lives - certainly post Involvement. Now I think I'll be able to play with whatever episode takes my fancy and not worry about the 'running order'so much - unless, of couse, it suits a story idea... Do other people have stuff like that which affects what sort of story they can, or want to, write?

You know, that is not a ridiculous idea at all because in Sentinel, I never slashed Jim and Blair until after the final episode. It seemed wrong somehow to slash them before they came to some sort of understanding about their place in each others lives. I totally buy that concept.

But in Pros, I didn't feel that way at all. I tend to ignore their little flings with women. Isn't that strange? I don't understand myself. Maybe it's because Bodie and Doyle are equals whereas Jim and Blair are definitely not. And Bodie and Doyle are an already-established partnership. But I admit once I pair them in an epilogue, as far as I'm concerned, any women in subsequent episodes are non-existent!

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

I had this ridiculous hangup about not being able to write them as a committed pair until after the various women had vanished from their lives - certainly post Involvement. Now I think I'll be able to play with whatever episode takes my fancy and not worry about the 'running order'so much - unless, of couse, it suits a story idea... Do other people have stuff like that which affects what sort of story they can, or want to, write?

Someone was explaining to me that certain episodes are famous for serving as relationship catalysts -- Involvement, DiaG, Slushfund and...there's another big one...Oujaka maybe?

And that makes sense to me. I think one reason I like DiaG is I see it as the final episode of the series. I know it wasn't written or shown that way, but it feels like the final episode to me. It feels like that would have been a turning point in a number of ways. That everything was different after that.

For whatever reason it's hard for me to see them get together following an earlier episode knowing -- having seen them -- with female characters beyond that point. The Ann Holly thing, in particular, seems disruptive if the idea is that they got together before her, because there doesn't seem like there's much doubt that Doyle falls hard for her.

I think my favorite stories take place after the series ends or in a non-specific limbo where the episode timeline is unclear.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

because there doesn't seem like there's much doubt that Doyle falls hard for her
Oh that's interesting - I totally don't see that! I see him wanting to fall hard for her, trying hard to make it happen but I don't seem to see the actual falling hard... There lots of fics that go with that interpretation too, and I've got to admit it always just felt right to me. So I can easily have the lads together before that, and then Doyle trying to break away for some reason, and convincing himself that Ann is his way to do it.

Same with Marikka, mind, I see no chemistry at all between her and Bodie, he seems practically half-hearted in the hotel. As if he wanted to think they could have their previous relationship back - the flirting in the park was at least quite hopeful - but when it came down to it, it just wasn't going to work...

[windrain10.livejournal.com]

I wasn't going to participate in this very interesting discussion b/c I didn't think I had much to add but I have seen Involvement and Fall Girl several times and I have to wholeheartedly agree w/ slantedlight here.

Namely, I think Doyle was not in love w/ Ann as much as he was in love w/ the idea of being in love w/ Ann. I certainly thought that they would be a very unhappy pair, long-term, had they married.

And I've always thought that Bodie acted . . . oddly? . . . in the hotel room before they were interrupted. He seemed interested in having sex, yes, but I didn't sense any great connection with Marikka, emotionally. He doesn't seem all that happy to be there with her. Happy to have sex but not happy to be w/ Marikka as a person.

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

Namely, I think Doyle was not in love w/ Ann as much as he was in love w/ the idea of being in love w/ Ann.

You're right, of course, and I almost noted that distinction in my post, but I think, in the end, it's the same thing. He's so in love with the idea of being in love that, in effect, he is in love.

Would it last? Nah. Even Bodie says something like that at one point. But, of course, that doesn't mean he wouldn't go ahead and marry her. It's been known to happen.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

but I think, in the end, it's the same thing. He's so in love with the idea of being in love that, in effect, he is in love
Oh, I so don't get that non-distinction! If he was really in love with her, then it would have had a very different impact on him than if he just wanted to be... They're the loss of two very very different hopes...

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

If he was really in love with her, then it would have had a very different impact on him than if he just wanted to be... They're the loss of two very very different hopes...

But SL, how could he possibly REALLY be in love with her, or anyone, when we all know he's REALLY in love with Bodie????

I'm thinking in terms of the disruptive effect on his on-going behind the scenes relationship with Bodie. The fact that he believes she's the one, that this is it, is potentially as disruptive and destructive as if she really was -- had it led to marriage and/or children.

One story that handles this really well is Sebastian's Hyperion to a Satyr. Bodie sees clearly what Ann is going to do to Doyle, but the fact that Doyle is believing himself in love with Ann (when it's the fantasy he loves) doesn't mean he won't be destroyed right on schedule even though it's all really triggered by his feelings for Bodie.

Sorry -- I'm rushing through this! I'm out the door.

The loss of a dream, even a false dream, is devestating.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Lol - well obviously he's in love with Bodie... *g* I've not read Hyperion for an age, but yes, the effects would be devastating either way - but in such different ways, with such different scope for making up, you know? (*vbg*)

And you mean I really will be able to get back to this beta now? *g*

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

I totally buy into this. He wanted to desperately for Something during this trying period that that he picked the first warm body that came by. Even in the car, when Bodie says the remark about asking her to marry, Doyle seems to suddenly say, yeah, I might, much like a petulant child. What I hear is the idea that if Bodie is going to raze him about Anne, then by God, she going to be the one! So there. (Doyle stamps foot!) *g*

I don't see any love, but almost -- desperation to find somebody to love him after the rough time with Benny dying. It's very much the old and tired rebound affect, which is a reality as much as it is old and tired! He needs something, doesn't know what IT is, so he snatches the first thing that seems to offer some sort of permanence or solidarity.

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

Same with Marikka, mind, I see no chemistry at all between her and Bodie, he seems practically half-hearted in the hotel. As if he wanted to think they could have their previous relationship back - the flirting in the park was at least quite hopeful - but when it came down to it, it just wasn't going to work...

Which is exactly why I wrote Marikka being Bodie's assignment. He's so lackadaisical around her, like he's forcing himself to pretend he's interested. So she had to be the assignment otherwise I doubt he'd be within a hundred miles of her.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Ah, well I don't quite see her as an assignment either (though perfectly good fic, of course! *g*) - to me there was a sort of wistfulness in the way he interacted with her in the park, and from a distance in the car - as if he was hopeful of rekindling old times, it was just that when he got there, there was nothing left after all but ashes...

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

Interesting though where such ideas come from - it would be fab if everyone here today wrote what their particular fanon is with the characters and why, maybe that would shed some light on it!

Old age has struck and my brain isn't working. I'm not exactly sure what's requested here. You want a list of what we like and use even though we know it's fanon?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

That's what I assumed magentablue was meaning. I'm trying to think whether there's any that I use... Actually I try not to use fanon too much, because I'm an awkward bugger like that. Tell me that everyone thinks something's orange, and I'll try and figure out how it might be blue... *g*

(Mind you, if I say that out loud then people are bound to come back and say but in such-and-such you used... *g*

[magenta-blue.livejournal.com]

No, my apologies, I'd had a glass of wine (or three) before typing that y'see, sorry for not making myself clear. What I meant was there was this meme that went round a while back, which was something like this:

Name a character and I'll tell you three (or more) facts about them from my own personal pseudo-canon.

It was people posting a short excerpt from their own personal B & D back stories, such as they believe either Bodie left school at 14 'because he ran away to sea' or Bodie left school at 14 'because he got a job at his Uncle's clay pigeon shooting farm before going to sea'. It doesn't mean you'd necessary write each fic like that, but just what you tend to think personally. It was really interesting to see what people put, just because it showed how even though we all look at the same characters, we all shine a slightly different light on them, especially in reasons behind certain character traits. I remember one person put something like Doyle never touched Swiss roll as he ate too much of it at a birthday party when he was little, and it put him off it ever since. I loved that.