Pros Novel Read-Along - Waiting to Fall by Rob - Chapters 36-40

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Well, it's finally that time - the last five chapters of Waiting to Finish Waiting to Fuck Waiting to Fall!


ETA - Oh yes, and the reason we started this read-along in the first place! Waiting to Fall is not an "incomplete story", as this person claimed. There are three brief missing phrases on the Circuit Archive copy, but nothing that makes the meaning of the sentence/story unclear. They've been found and listed here, so people can add them to their own copies (thank you again, f_m_parkinson!), although unfortunately the Circuit Archive is no longer being maintained, so they can't be added there. Our fab hagsrus has also fixed them in the ProsLib copy (ProsLib now being our only active and dedicated Pros archive).

We left the lads still having problems in bed, but with Doyle reassured about his future with CI5, despite having clocked both Macklin and Cowley.

As Chapter 36 starts, we find Doyle waiting for Bodie to wake up so that they can have sex. Bodie wakes slowly and reluctantly, but is convinced, and Doyle ends up fucking him. He then suggests that he has further needs - but it's not another fuck, but a fry-up breakfast he's after this time. Bodie isn't given time to protest, and so he goes to have a shower, realising as he does that Doyle fucking him has finally made him forget his own childhood trauma - later in these chapters he tells Doyle that he was repeatedly sexually abused and raped by his stepbrother when he was a little boy. This time he enjoyed being fucked by Doyle - and thinks its a shame he won't ever be able to make Doyle feel the same way.

They have a long weekend off, and Bodie takes Ray to meet his foster mother, who needs help decorating. We find out a bit more about Bodie's childhood between his uncaring mother and his loving foster parents, the abuse he suffered when he finally had to go home to his mother and her new family, and that he ran away from it as soon as he could when he was fifteen. Oddly enough, Bodie's childhood abuse isn't explored any further in the story apart from telling us what happened. Have we heard before now that Bodie doesn't want to be fucked either (even though he hopes that he can fuck Doyle eventually, and tries to)? Doyle doesn't react to it with anything more than a brief sorrow, or seem to empathise or associate it with his own trauma, even - and as usual, that doesn't seem like Doyle to me, the Doyle who we see in the eps empathising with Mickey Hamilton, amongst others.

Doyle is next sent to Willis (the doctor, not the government agent who tried to frame Bodie), who has a brand new set of very accurate scales to weigh him on - and is furious to find that Doyle has somehow managed to trick them as well, because his weight is now exactly ten and a half stone, as required. Of course we know that it's all the fry-ups Doyle has suddenly been happy enough to eat - Bodie explains that "You're always hungry after you fuck me."

It is, of course, all go in CI5. A case is brewing, and the lads are sent to Wormwood Scrubs to interview a prisoner. Doyle tries his best but can't handle it, and has to rush outside to be sick. He insists on going back on his own the next time, although Bodie goes with him to the gates and waits outside for him. Doyle is able to successfully interview the man this time - although he explains to Bodie that he cheated and took him into the exercise yard to do it.

Doyle is sent to the Brewers, where his undercover ex-con persona remains intact, which may be connected to the case. Bodie is disconcerted - and furious - to find out that he has an undercover persona, and that the rest of the agents all know about it but he doesn't. He's also still not happy that Doyle can have a laugh with Pat Kelly, and when he hears that Doyle and Kelly have gone to the Brewers one day, he rushes to the pub, not seeming to care much about blowing Doyle's two-year cover there, and confronts him, pushing him up against a wall but at least managing to whisper his concerns, although they're still very explicit about Doyle being an agent not an ex-con. The three of them leave, with no harm apparently done, and now it's Kelly's turn to be pushed up against a wall - Bodie is ironically furious that Kelly has been with "an operational agent" when he's supposed to be on stand-by. So it turns out to be all Kelly's fault, and when Bodie and Doyle get home, Doyle ends up apologising to Bodie for not telling him all about it. They end up with Doyle fucking Bodie again though, so it's all okay. (Except that I can't help feel uncomfortable about these scenes - too reminiscent of an abusive husband demanding to know why his wife is going out without him and dragging her home, where he remains angry until she apologises to him...)

Cowley instructs Doyle that he will be going deeper undercover - Bodie is again not happy about this, but at least he's assigned as Doyle's contact. There's still tensions between them at home though - a half-asleep Doyle tries to get Bodie to fuck him, but Bodie won't, and runs out of the room. So things are tangled between them as Doyle heads off for his assignment. The new CI5 psychologist, Michaels, is also not convinced that Doyle will be able to cope with working undercover, but "at least he has Bodie there as back-up".

The lads go to the CI5 Christmas party for one last night of freedom before being undercover, but when Doyle tries to insist on going straight to his new safehouse accommodation, Bodie overrules him to the taxi driver, and they go back to their flat and have a discussion about their problems. Doyle tells Bodie he wants to be fucked, and so they give it another go - but when Bodie turns Doyle over, it again all goes wrong and then they have to have another conversation about it all. Doyle fucks Bodie again the next morning instead, despite being upset that despite wanting Bodie to fuck him he still can't stand it, and can't work out why. Bodie explains it's because his heart and his head want different things.

Doyle starts his job undercover at the Seven Bells, with Bodie as one of the customers. Bodie's still very unhappy about Doyle doing this, but Doyle flirts with him over the bar, and ends up staking his claim on Doyle within hearing of his boss. Doyle takes Bodie back to the safehouse, which is minimally equipped to say the least, and ends up cuddling up to him for comfort. The next day, while Doyle's at work, Bodie basically moves into the little "flatlet", to the point of making a casserole for their dinner together, and lacing it with magic mushrooms bought in the pub to help Doyle "relax" so that he can, perhaps, fuck him. Little does he know that Doyle has also bought some of the mushrooms, because he thought Bodie had been tense recently, and slips them into the dinner as well.

The magic mushrooms seem to work for both of them - they have a laugh blowing up the inflatable bed that Bodie brought with him, and when it comes to fucking Doyle manages to manouevre Bodie into fucking him face-to-face - and there! Bodie has the great revelation - Doyle just needed to be able to see who was fucking him! When it's all over Doyle cries, and Bodie makes sure he's okay, and then explains to Doyle what the problem has been all along. Doyle can't believe it's so simple, and so Bodie demonstrates by trying to fuck him on his stomach, which Doyle can't do, turning back over "gratefully".

Unfortunately the magic mushrooms may have had another effect - Doyle spends the night throwing up, and is feverish when they wake. Of course he has to go back to his undercover role, but although Doyle next seems to be developing a cold, he says he feels okay to carry on, and doesn't even need Bodie to walk down with him. At work, things seem to be coming together, as Doyle is left in charge of a delivery from the brewery while his boss heads off on the coach trip that is probably a cover for the villain they're after.

Doyle is still sick, but carries on with the op. He insists on having a gun, despite Bodie's worries that his uniform is so tight it will be spotted (which chimes oddly with Bodie's fury that Doyle didn't have a gun on him when he was undercover at the Brewers with Pat Kelly). Everything is all set up, the place swarming with undercover agents from CI5 and Interpol, and Mahak arrives as expected. It looks like it's about to go smoothly until Doyle's brother John turns up saying he wants to talk to Doyle. A furious Doyle rebuffs him and tries to get him to leave, and John turns and begins to slag him off loudly, so that everyone in the pub turns to listen. He accuses Doyle of being a failure in the police - at which Mahak pricks up his ears, and then decides to leave. On his way out he spots the agents outside in a reflection, then turns and catches Bodie's eye, and knows that something's up. He makes a break for it - Doyle shoots at him and misses, shoots again and catches him on the arm so that Bodie and the others can overcome him.

John Doyle only sees his ex-con brother shooting another man dead, and hits him hard enough to knock him off his feet, then sits on him and pulls his arms behind his back, thinking he's the hero of the hour. Day - the agent who had previously mistrusted Doyle so much - pulls John off Doyle, and Ray "sags down to the ground, clearly hurting". Bodie rushes over, and Doyle passes out.

And that is basically the denouement! John and his wife are told all about his brother's real status as a government agent, and Doyle is released from hospital. It even turns out that Doyle's claustrophobia is really from his childhood, when John would lock him in boxes, or even coffins (the family business turns out to be a funeral directors) - again, Doyle doesn't ever seem to have made the connection... *headdesk* Anyway - Bodie whips Doyle away for a two-week holiday in the sun, despite it turning out that Doyle doesn't have a passport because he's never been further than a couple of day trips to Holland, and Cowley having to pull some serious strings to get him one in three hours.

They manage to catch their plane, and the world is looking good for them. Okay, it turns out Doyle's never been on an aeroplane before and doesn't want to look out of the window, that he's got no clue where Lanzarote is, and that Bodie has to explain to him what the "Five-Mile-High Club" is, but they're off for two weeks in a luxury villa all by themselves. Guess what they're planning to do. *g*

The end!

I've tried to put most of my comments into the "summary" (hah - hopefully not tl;dr!) this time, and you can probably guess what they are anyway, because I've made them before and nothing seemed to change in this section. Doyle is still delicate, sensitive, easily confused, with little empathy or thought for anyone else, and also still very innocent. He doesn't know what the (five) mile high club is? Or where Lanzarote is? Please! If nothing else he was in the bloody police for years! He lived in London! And Bodie is still the mostly-patient, despite-being-traumatised-himself, worldly-wise and insightful man who can explain things to his partner, and cuddle him to make him feel better. He's also exceedingly possessive, to the point of becoming violent with Doyle, who tends to placate him or give in to him when that happens... and I'm really uncomfortable with that portrayal, of any person, never mind our Doyle. I think what I'd normally expect (or want) in a fic is for all these things to be resolved, and for the lads to be equals at the end, but that hasn't happened here. Doyle is a bit more confident, Bodie is currently placated, and they're having a romantic ever-after moment, but...

It leaves me with something of a desire to write another version, to be honest - with all credit to Rob, who has written an amazing long-lived "fandom classic" fic in WtF, no matter what I've said above. I really like the premise of the plot, it's just that the characterisation threw me completely off... Anyone who knows me knows I'm not at all averse to our Doyle needing a bit of comfort - but only if he's "our Doyle" to start with!

Anyway - enough from me. Was this the story you expected it to be? Were these the lads you expected? Even if you didn't read along, maybe you can remember what you thought if you've read this before. It's been reviewed here at CI5hq before, with mixed opinions that tend to be at one extreme or the other of loving it or hating it. Either way, it's a legendary Pros fandom fic. Rob sadly died some years ago, but she lives on in Pros. *g*

Comments

[jat-sapphire.livejournal.com]

I am disappointed. I was waiting and WAITING for Doyle the competent agent to re-emerge ... and though the gun battle wasn't much, I thought OK, now, right? But it didn't resolve the question of Doyle being a good agent, just gave John a new abusive I-know-best jerky thing to do. And Bodie has been raped, well, might as well add that, right? And it has been obvious for CHAPTERS that Doyle wants to see Bodie while they are having sex. When did Bodie get STUPID?

To my mind, if someone has to lose 100 IQ points for a plot point to work, RETHINK that plot point.

Anyway. I don't think this B/D pair are going to last, vacation or not. Bodie's going to beat up anyone Doyle works with and Doyle ... I don't know. Will fall apart without his Bodie(Teddy)Bear, I guess.

[tinturtle]

Bodie's going to beat up anyone Doyle works with

Or he's going to beat up Doyle.

[jat-sapphire.livejournal.com]

Also likely. Bodie, stop grooming.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yeah, disappointed is pretty much how I felt too. I thought maybe even at the end it would become more equal between them - and then Doyle didn't even have a passport or know where Lanzarote was, and... And yeah, even though it's Doyle who stops Mahak from getting away, his first shot misses him. Okay, heat of the moment, crowded pub etc. might have thrown him off, but Doyle's on the CI5 shooting team. We see him in Acorn Syndrome go from pretending-to-put-his-gun-down (iirc) to lifting his arm and shooting a man holding a young girl close to him absolutely accurately - he's not just an excellent shot, he's a confident shot. It could have been something that showed us real Doyle, but he wasn't even allowed to be there...

Doyle wants to see Bodie while they are having sex. When did Bodie get STUPID?
When did Doyle? (Well okay, pretty much from Chapter Two... *g*) When he says he wants to fuck Bodie, is he really not conscious enough of himself to know that he doesn't want to do it face down on the floor? *sighs*...

[tinturtle]

-- THE END --

I admit that I did not like this fic very much and that I was glad to finish it. The parts I enjoyed most were the parts focused on cases: the episode with Charles Holly, Bodie and Doyle undercover in Ferris and Twigg's organization, and the final op to trap Mahak. The relationship-focused sections were more frustrating. Like byslantedlight, I didn't find the characterizations true to what I see in canon, and there was much about them that I found distasteful. There are two dynamics that I felt characterize B and D's relationship in Waiting to Fall. The first is Doyle as child—innocent, self-centered, and in need of constant care—and Bodie as adult—insightful, patient, caring, and competent. The second is the one byslantedlight noted above—Bodie as possessive and controlling, and Doyle as submissive and placating. Both of those involve a clear imbalance of power between the two partners, which in a fic that keeps coming back to the theme of sexual abuse, could have been part of what the author wanted to address. Only it wasn't. Waiting to Fall is a romance with what is meant to be an uncomplicated happy ending, and it leaves both relationship dynamics unexamined. That's frustrating.

(For what it's worth, I can imagine a fic making me believe in a possessive, maybe controlling, Bodie, but not in a version of Doyle that would put up with it very long. As for the child-adult dynamic, I can't really imagine it working, except perhaps in something like an amnesia fic.)

[tinturtle]

I exceeded the character limit. Woo woo!. More thoughts...

byslantedlight:

Bodie...goes to have a shower, realising as he does that Doyle fucking him has finally made him forget his own childhood trauma - later in these chapters he tells Doyle that he was repeatedly sexually abused and raped by his stepbrother when he was a little boy.

...

Doyle doesn't react to it with anything more than a brief sorrow, or seem to empathise or associate it with his own trauma, even - and as usual, that doesn't seem like Doyle to me, the Doyle who we see in the eps empathising with Mickey Hamilton, amongst others.

My interpretation was very much that Bodie didn't tell Doyle what happened. I think it was revealed only to the reader.

Waiting to Fall:

Doyle was puzzled. He'd been sure it would have been problems with the step-father--he had come across cases similar when in the police force. "What was your brother like?" he asked, playing for time as he re-organised his suspicions.

"I hated him!" The placid front shattered and real, undisguised hate coloured the previously cool tones.

Doyle winced as strong fingers gripped his upper arms, biting into him painfully. "Bodie!" he protested.

"Christ, but how I hated him!" Bodie growled, his mind slipping backwards into a past he'd hoped was long forgotten.

"Why, what did he do?"

And Bodie remembered...

[Cut to Bodie's memory, separated from the foregoing and following dialog by horizontal lines.]

"Why, what did he do?"

And Bodie remembered. Everything. Every little thing.

"What did he do that was so bad?" Doyle repeated the question softly, his fingers rubbing away the harsh lines that had formed around his lover's mouth.

Inhaling deeply, Bodie sighed and pushed all the memories away. They were gone forever. "I suppose he was just jealous of me--I was living with his father, after all. It must have been hard for him to accept the way things changed."

Bodie remembered his past in response to Doyle's question, but then chose to deflect it. That's why Doyle's reaction was muted. This scene bothered me a bit for another reason, though. People have a right to discuss or not discuss traumatic events, but I felt as though Bodie's turning away from this opportunity to confide in Doyle, when Doyle had confided so much in him, was yet another example of inequality in their relationship.

---

The non-consensual drug use also bugged me. Who thinks it's okay to slip their lover hallucinogens in their dinner?

---

Have we heard before now that Bodie doesn't want to be fucked either (even though he hopes that he can fuck Doyle eventually, and tries to)?

No, I don't think so. That seemed to come out of the blue.

He doesn't know...where Lanzarote is?

Well, I didn't know where Lanzarote was, either, though I would have, had I know that it was one of the Canary Islands.

It even turns out that Doyle's claustrophobia is really from his childhood, when John would lock him in boxes, or even coffins (the family business turns out to be a funeral directors) - again, Doyle doesn't ever seem to have made the connection... *headdesk*

*headdesk*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

My interpretation was very much that Bodie didn't tell Doyle what happened.
Yup, you're right, and it made me blink when I first read it and then I forgot that bit when I was trying to include everything else in the review. And it does make it even more unbalanced between them - Doyle needs protection from the nasties in his past, but Bodie's strong enough to cope with them on his own... definitely doesn't bode well for their future!

Well, I didn't know where Lanzarote was, either,
Yeah, but Lanzarote was one of the package-holiday hot-spots over here in the UK - it's pretty unlikely that Doyle wouldn't have seen travel posters/brochures etc. around. I think we may even see one in the eps somewhere - I seem to remember it being noted in the original Great ProsWatch. And Doyle's not 18, or 25 - and he lives in London, not out here in the wilds of the south-west, or somewhere! And again, in the police and considered bright enough to be in CI5!

The non-consensual drug use also bugged me. Who thinks it's okay to slip their lover hallucinogens in their dinner?
If it had been anything stronger than mushroom it would have bugged me too (and there are Pros fics where that happens). It bugged me more that neither of them really knew their provenience - they didn't know the guy who was selling them, but they bought them despite having described the pub as a hotspot for dealing etc.

[tinturtle]

Another thought...

Waiting to Fall:

It was a shame that he could never share these feeling with Ray.

The stray thought burst though the glowing aura of well-being without warning. His mood suddenly shifting, he rinsed the last of the soap off and stepped out of the shower.

It was no good wishing for something he could never have, he told himself harshly. Drying and dressing himself with sharp economical actions, Bodie reminded himself that he had to accept what they had and stop wishing for more; it was enough that Ray was able to accept his loving and offer what he could in return. And if he wanted more... Bodie squashed the hope firmly.

There was no more.

I found the fic's and the characters' persistent focus on one particular sex act pretty weird, honestly. It's as though Rob didn't think the relationship could be complete without it. (That certainly seems to be the underlying idea of the quote above.) Until this section, I supposed that being able to be fucked was to be symbol of Doyle overcoming his traumatic experiences. In the end, though, it wasn't because he overcame them that things worked out; it was just because Bodie and Doyle figured out how to do the thing right. :-/

ETA: I suppose that could have been a symbol, too, of Doyle realizing that the things that have happened will always affect him, but that he can still find joy in his new life. Nothing like that comes through in the text, though.

---

It leaves me with something of a desire to write another version, to be honest - with all credit to Rob, who has written an amazing long-lived "fandom classic" fic in WtF, no matter what I've said above.

I forgot to comment on this bit, but I think that would be really cool.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I found the fic's and the characters' persistent focus on one particular sex act pretty weird
Yeah, in theory fucking is only one sex act, and generally optional unless you actually want to make a baby, but I have to say that most men I've come across/met/known have been more or less fixated on it as what sex is properly about. In fact I was watching Friends the other night (I know...) and it was the one with the scene where the girls are pointing out that kissing and foreplay are something that is absolutely desirable and even necessary for them. The guys counter by say that while they like it, it's not why they wanted to go to the show in the first place. I have a feeling that's probably most women's experience of men, so I wasn't surprised by Rob writing it like that (and especially in 1989, where magazines like Cosmo were still explaining to women about the g-spot, and how they too could enjoy sex... although they'd been explaining that for quite some time by then!)

but I think that would be really cool
*g* I really am thinking about it actually - it's such an interesting premise for a fic... *g*

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

I managed to slog my way to the end of the story, but it just got harder and harder to read. You'd never know that both men were at least in their thirties, they know so little about themselves. Which may explain why they have so much trouble figuring out each other. Doyle remains a child, petulant and demanding. He rarely sees beyond his own needs. Bodie's possessiveness is off-putting. It might have been easier if either man grew emotionally over time, but they don't. They don't talk. Well, Bodie at least tries but Doyle is impossible. He expects Bodie to know what he wants without saying what that is.

I don't remember if I liked the story the first time I read it. If I did it was probably because I hadn't seen any of the episodes (this was when the only way you could was if you could get hold of the VHS tapes that were rerecorded to be able to play over here.)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

It did feel like a bit of a slog, because I kept waiting for things to fix properly, but they never did - obviously my idea of "fix" wasn't the author's idea!

I can understand that blokes in their 30s might not know much about themselves if they've suppressed it for ages, but I can't really understand why it takes our lads so long to react to the prompts in their life that lead them to address those things... and why they don't work them out faster. Doyle was trapped in boxes when he was a child, and doesn't like enclosed spaces? He was forced to lie on his stomach while men sexually assaulted him, and he doesn't like being fucked while on his stomach? How is this difficult stuff to work out?!

I think there are times when Doyle tries to talk too, such as when he wants to know about Bodie's past and Bodie won't talk to him. But that said, the lads I see in the eps don't sit down and have long explanatory talks about things — they might reveal something from their past while they're walking down the stairs on their way somewhere else, after it's been brought up through no will of their own, or while they're half-asleep chatting idly at bed time, but they don't seem to decide they need to "discuss" things - and Bodie actively makes faces when Doyle questions even what they're doing! If anything I had the opposite reaction in the fic - they did too much talking! *g*

He expects Bodie to know what he wants without saying what that is.
Ha - that's half the people in the world, in my experience (and not necessarily just the male half!)

If I did it was probably because I hadn't seen any of the episodes
To be honest I'd be surprised if you wanted to, if you'd just read this fic... *g*

[tinturtle]

Do any of you—byslantedlight, jat_sapphire, or gilda_elise—fancy ending our adventure by recommending a short piece by Rob that you do like? I offer Not Even Good-bye (5792 words).

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

I think Not Even Good-bye is probably my favorite, too. But rereading some of her work, I find that the problems I had with this story show up in many of the rest.

[tinturtle]

It had occurred to me that one reason Not Even Good-Bye works better could be that Doyle is absent for most of the story. :-/

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Good idea! It's been ages since I read anything by Rob though, so I'll have to wait until I've finished work for the day and then have a wee re-read...

It might be nice to post quick reviews of the stories we like to the comm rather than just as comments, so that people who haven't been following the discussion can see them too. *g*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Okay, I fibbed - I took a work-break and had a quick read (with all due trepidation, as you said that Doyle was absent for most of the story).

First of all - Doyle wasn't absent for most of the story!! Even when he wasn't physically in the story, it revolved around him and Bodie and the other agents were thinking about him. That doesn't count as "absent" to me.

It's not a bad story, and in fact I liked the beginning — but again I liked the start of it better than the ending; not because Doyle's physically present at the start, but because everyone gets way too soppy and unrealistic once Doyle's gone missing. I don't believe that the lads sleeping together could have been an open secret in CI5 (I appreciate people's mileage may vary about that), but mostly I thought Bodie was too emotionally addressed. The whole whispering "I'm sorry, Ray, I'm sorry" out loud, and tears streaming down his face when they find Doyle, and... oh, and the focus on how hard and stoic he's behaving, and his perfectly straight run that's "a suicide run" - it's all just a bit too overwrought for me. It's not that I don't think those things could happen, or that he wouldn't react that way, it's the way they're described.

[tinturtle]

I don't believe that the lads sleeping together could have been an open secret in CI5

I don’t, either, but as you said, people’s milage does vary a lot on that score, so I generally try to suspend my disbelief when it is one.

As for the rest, I agree with pretty much all of it, but enjoy the fic anyway. I like melodrama, in measured doses.

[tinturtle]

I also like the element of Bodie not reacting to the emotional stress of Ray's apparent death until it is removed, and then finding his reaction overpowering. I have observed that in real life, but I don’t think I have encountered it in another fic.

[tinturtle]

I don't believe that the lads sleeping together could have been an open secret in CI5

I don’t, either, but as you said, people’s milage does vary a lot on that score, so I generally try to suspend my disbelief when it is one.

At least, sometimes I suspend my disbelief. Other times I worry that downplaying the amount of prejudice that existed in the past is disrespectful to the people who had to live through it. That's not an issue in the case of this fic, though, since it was written in 1983. Maybe softening the prejudice of one's own era is worse, or maybe imagining something better than what actually exists is one way of moving towards it.

(Sorry for the tangle of posts.)

[tinturtle]

First of all - Doyle wasn't absent for most of the story!! Even when he wasn't physically in the story, it revolved around him and Bodie and the other agents were thinking about him. That doesn't count as "absent" to me.

He was important to the story throughout, but he wasn't around to be un-Doylish in the ways we found unappealing in Waiting to Fall.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Replying to both replies above together. *g*

downplaying the amount of prejudice that existed in the past is disrespectful to the people who had to live through it
I think that's a very good point , and it's exactly why I don't like whitewashing (in all kinds of senses) the past. Not only does it diminish the strength that people needed to live through these things, but it's also a distortion of history — getting rid of it means that we can't learn from it. And considering the hugely long times that humans apparently need to learn things like fairness and tolerance, they need all the help they can get...

maybe imagining something better than what actually exists is one way of moving towards it
There is that, and that's what I usually assume is going on, but I think it's a balance that we need to get right. Too much imagining the past was better gives less tolerant people ammunition — "but in Downton Abbey the servants are friendly with the owners of the house" = "there were no class differences really, it's just people whinging" = not realising that things need to change. Substitute gender, colour, religion etc. for "class"... *sighs*

I also like the element of Bodie not reacting to the emotional stress of Ray's apparent death until it is removed, and then finding his reaction overpowering. I have observed that in real life, but I don’t think I have encountered it in another fic.
Yes, the reaction in general is not implausible, and I don't say it wouldn't happen (and I've definitely read it in lots of other fics over the years *g*) - I just found it too melodramatic here on top of all the talk about it. And it just doesn't strike me as very Bodie to do the breaking down in front of his fellow agents...

but he wasn't around to be un-Doylish in the ways we found unappealing in Waiting to Fall
He's actually present in 2/3 of the story, though it doesn't feel as much (I'm sad, I counted in the end *g*) But I think Rob just doesn't write him as un-Doyle-ish in this story to start with. He's feisty and slightly grumpy at the start, which we see in the eps, and then at the end he's the one reassuring Bodie... If anything, I'm seeing super-Bodie-given-a-super-vulnerability as in WtF, now that I think about it, but my more ep-like Doyle back again.

I'll have to read another Rob story today and see how it works out... *g*

[tinturtle]

I'll have to read another Rob story today and see how it works out...
I read several more of her shortest works yesterday, but none of them appealed to me much. I did like a small story by JoJo that I stumbled over later in the day while wandering around looking for something else. It's very unusual in being told in the second person (and more so for not being a sexual fantasy, as most second-person fics I've seen have been).

And it just doesn't strike me as very Bodie to do the breaking down in front of his fellow agents...
I agree on that point. The story would have been stronger if B and D's colleagues had gone to do something else before Bodie started crying. I haven't added Not Even Good-bye to my Treasured Collection, certainly. (What do other people call their archives of most beloved fics, anyway? It seems as if there ought to be a common term, though I suppose that those who have encountered many of their favorites in zines would not have such a thing. Mine is one of my most prized possessions, even if it's a digital one.)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yes, Jojo's usually good solid Pros, although she's a bit super-Bodie and a few too many modernisms for me to think perfect. Close, though. *g* And I do like that particular fic too - as you say, not a common pov in Pros.

What do other people call their archives of most beloved fics, anyway?
Oh, please do a post to ci5hq to ask - I'd love to hear what other people say! *vbg*

[jat-sapphire.livejournal.com]

So I readNot Even Goodbye despite thinking that the title and the bulk of the story indicated a certain type of story. That type does have its own emotional impact. And then, again despite the common type of ending it had plus that common-in-slash trope of all the good-guy-friends seeing the relationsip the main characters have and being well disposed to it, I still was SO IRRITATED that the endgame appears to be that big stoic Bodie cries uncontrollably. Tears falling down his face. Who is this bloke? I feel as though the action which should express the emotion is used to CREATE the emotion in this story, which, yeah, happens in WTF as well.

I haven't found a Rob story I actually like.

[tinturtle]

Attempt to leave folks with warmer feelings toward Rob's work: unsuccessful

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I haven't got around to all my reading of Rob yet! I started a few last night before bed, and I did really like the beginnings — then they tend to get soppier towards the end, and I can't go there. But I've not given up trying!

Also, looking back at a previous review/rec of WtF, there were lots of people who did like that too, they just weren't involved in the read-along.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean about tears-streaming-down Bodie — I just can't buy it.

I had a look at some more Rob stories last night, and I quite often liked the way they started, but then they descended into being too soppy for my tastes... I've not given up though!

[jat-sapphire.livejournal.com]

I'll try any you want to recommend.

[tinturtle]

I feel as though the action which should express the emotion is used to CREATE the emotion in this story, which, yeah, happens in WTF as well.

I don't understand what this means. I've been trying to figure it out.

[jat-sapphire.livejournal.com]

Well, let me try to put it another way. Bodie bursts into tears. I imagine we are supposed to vividly feel the strength of his emotion, his passionate relief that Doyle is alive. But I actually felt compassion for Bodie's tears (well, plus a certain amount of disbelief). To paraphrase even more awkwardly, I don't think, "oh, he really loves Doyle!" I think, "Poor Bodie, that's embarrassing! Did anyone see? Will Doyle comfort him?" (which of course he does).

[jat-sapphire.livejournal.com]

I don't know about SL. I am certain I am no judge of the emotions CI5 agents would experience or express. Your response seems more direct and closer to what I imagine Rob intends.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Sorry, hope you didn't think I was ignoring you, it's just been quite a weekend. All-day online meeting on Saturday, and when that ended I just didn't want to open my laptop again unless I had to!

rather about him being distanced from his emotions about Doyle's apparent death... and then being swamped by them when Doyle reappears
I can see that interpretation in the story, but I just don't think we see Bodie reacting to things that way in the eps. In Discovered in a Graveyard we actually have Doyle on the edge of death and Bodie out for revenge, and although I grant you we don't actually see Bodie when he's given the news that Doyle is going to live, I just don't get the impression that he would have sunk to his knees in floods of tears in front of people. And I don't think it realistically could be something that a CI5 agent is free to do - if they were that overcome with relief every time a hugely threatening situation resolved itself, then the villains would eventually work it out and just hang around for the collapse and shoot them then... *g* More seriously - I do think that CI5 is probably such a roller-coaster of danger-to-boredom-to-threat-to-relief-to-danger-to-boredom-etc. that the lads (anyone!) would really have to be pretty emotionally stable to deal with it. And then of course there's the whole culture thing - the British "stiff upper lip" isn't a stereotype without a reason... *g*

[tinturtle]

I don't know why I keep defending this story. I suppose I feel responsible for it because I recommended it. I don't think it's a great story, but neither do I think it is as bad as all that, and I think it is better than Waiting to Fall.

I have several responses to the above, but this discussion has gone on too long, I think. (Sorry. I realize you put work into your post.)

Also, for what it's worth, I don't cry in front of people, either.