CI5 hq

Oh good! That's exactly how I feel about het and gen - it's just so disappointing and such a waste of time when you realise that what you're reading isn't slash at all! (That's what I was saying a few months back too, re Circuit...) I've even had the specific British Takeaway let down as well... *g* I was desperate for a list that would warn me about that - and even though there's always been the ProsLib slash zine list, I don't think it listed gen/het, so there was always the thought that - well, maybe this one slash zine just got left off, especially when someone's telling you there's slash... Don't know why I didn't just start doing it ages ago... *headdesk*

To be fair, I'm sure it'll work the other way as well... *g*

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gilda-elise.livejournal.com

That's not slash...
I've been including gen and het zines in the List of Zines at Palelyloitering, thinking that it's useful for slashers to know what to avoid as well as what to want, but only as I came across them. Trouble is, not so long ago a friend bought what she was told were Pros slash zines from an individual on one of the lists, only the person selling them lied - they turned out to be gen and het zines instead.

No matter what the sellers says, I always check the Proslib files because of things like this happening. I bought a couple of UNCLE zine from a zine website and, even after I told the seller that the zines weren't slash, they still continue to be advertized that way. Their reasoning? Illya has an encounter with a male (not Napoleon,) but ends up with a woman.

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Yeah, the ProsLib lists are ever so useful, but they don't actually include all the gen/het zines out there, so when someone's telling you something, and you're hopeful... *g*

I suppose it does raise all sorts of definition issues as well, but hopefully I'll be able to cover some of those in the "Other Information" sections etc at pl.

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heliophile-oxon.livejournal.com

Also not helping (sorry!) but yes, this is an excellent idea - people who prefer slash to gen or to het (or even vice versa) aren't going to want to get lumbered with material they will probably never read, let alone enjoy.

It seem odd to me now, but back in the days before I came across slash (hadn't found Pros yet then either - this was in another fandom, and besides the wench is dead. Well my objet du désir technically died until he got revamped in yet another fandom, but never mind that) I used to enjoy reading other kinds of stories - but ever since I discovered the joys of slash I have never ever looked back, to the extent that I almost forget that there are het stories out there. Certainly wouldn't want to get ambushed by one ::shudders:: - so cheers for your initiative!

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Oh, you're helping if you tell me that you think it might be useful though - thank you!

I almost discovered slash through a fandom where my objet du désir technically died but was revamped in another fandom... hmmn... *g* I think I remember catching glimpses of slash, without really being interested enough in the pairing to follow it up - in fact I rather despised the other character as much as I liked mine - but then I found Pros instead, and suddenly it all made sense... *g* And I, personally, don't want to read het Pros, and I'm generally disappointed in gen Pros, so... yeah. Lists. *g*

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hgdoghouse.livejournal.com

The Small Print 1- 4 all gen, relationship and h/c, *not* het, though may be odd reference to girlfriends.

Dead Reckoning - several issues from Oz. Gen. Action/adventure.

Long Shot - from Oz. Gen. Action/adventure

Mission Professional - crossover with Pros, Classic Trek, Mission Impossible, set in British Museum. Plot driven action/adventure. Not het.

British Takeaway 1 - gen and het.

British Takeaway 2 - one very short, non-explicit slash story by me, otherwise gen and het.

Some of the other BT contained slash (by me and Ellis Ward, + I think others. I can check if no one else has them).

Cold Fish and Stale Chips letterzine re unfinished writing. For obvious reasons the snippets all tended not to include slash as it was usually the plot causing the problems.

Impact 1, 2 - Gen not het. Relationship, h/c, action/adventure.

Everything But the Kitchen Sink 3 - multi-media zine had a couple of gen pros stories. May have been het, can't remember.

Walking on Broken Glass - not sure if this was a zine or circuit story. But it was het.

There were others but being an aged crone I can't remember them.

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hgdoghouse.livejournal.com

Sorry, I should have checked Palely Loitering first.

Backtrack was the other series I was trying to think of.

If memory serves, Enigma was a multi-media gen zine from the UK, with some Pros gen.

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Oh this is brilliant - thank you! I've got a couple of these in the List of Zines, but definitely not all of them. And I'm very curious about Cold Fish and Stale Chips, I've only just heard of that letterzine, via another discussion, and haven't followed it up yet - will have to keep my eyes open for it... If any others come to mind, I'd be glad to hear about them, any time - Palelyloitering is rather a long term project, as I expect you've noticed!

And, you know, you're one of my favourite aged crones, and it makes me very happy that you have a livejournal now too! *g* Would it be okay to friend you, for if you decide to post as well?!

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hgdoghouse.livejournal.com

You sweet-talker you . Of course. Though I really opened an account just so any posts wouldn't be anonymous.
Can recommend Cold Fish, a lot of interesting stuff. I have issues 1-23, though I don't know how many there were.

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Hee - well, a girl can hope... *g* But being not anonymous is good too!

Thanks for the Cold Fish information - it's a good start!

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I appreciate the listing including het/gen zines. I've been buying quite a few Pros and it's helpful knowing this since I try to buy only slash zines. I actually don't care if it's labeled gen or het since I generally don't read either and one label or the other is enough info for me.

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Oh good - glad you think it'll be useful! I do want to distinguish between het and gen though - I know alot of people don't read either, but there's also zines like Seven Days in Bangkok by Karen Miller, which is technically gen, but which for some reason I really really like anyway... I can Bring My Own Overtones with gen sometimes, you know? But het? Whole different thing..!

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msmoat.livejournal.com

Naturally I would read this at work, where I can't look at my zines.... I have some that haven't been listed yet, so I'll take a look when I get home. I definitely think it's a good idea to have a list so people know before they order zines. I've been caught in that too--buying a zine I was told was slash, only to find out it's gen. I like gen if it focuses on the relationship--there are some terrific stories out there that I see as "pre-slash"--but I want to know ahead of time.

Mind you, you do run into definition problems, as others have mentioned. For some people, any m/m encounter is "slash"--and a story about Doyle being raped and dealing with the aftermath, with Bodie as friend only...well, that's not "slash" for me. *g* (Gosh, and what if there was a whole zine filled with stories where B&D have sex, but they choose het relationships over each other. Technically, it'd all be slash, but.... Okay, I'm going to have nightmares now. *g*)

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Oh excellent - thank you! Know what you mean about gen, sometimes it totally works, and I read them as pre-slash too. But there is the odd one or two that I've been reading and waiting and anticipating and then... nothing, without warning! Ack!

Definition is interesting, isn't it. I've only just found out what fannish "smarm" is, and that just totally does my head in... who? what? why?!

Slash to me isn't just about the sex either - so a m/m rape story isn't necessarily slash, unless it's also about the... well, if I say "sexual relationship" between the lads, that's not what I mean (although it'd involve the sexual as well) but if I say "committed relationship" then some people'd say you could have that just as friends too, and that's not what I mean either... Hmmn. See, I need a decent definition! I think if there was a story where B&D have sex, but then choose het relationships over each other, I'd call that het in fact. (Though I know alot of people would go - ick, no, they have sex! But I might go "ick, no, they eat spinach" - that wouldn't make it a story about spinach...) Perhaps I think it's about desires and wants rather than the actual physical actions as well...

A story in which there was no sex, but Bodie wanted Doyle for example, would be slash to me... Yeah, maybe that's it, maybe it's more to do with the character's intent... which is in turn to do with the author's intent, and that's a whole different question too... (which I keep threatening to post on!)

Maybe "a story with m/m romantic intent" would be a slash story? Cos "romantic" would cover sex, but also not-getting-around-to-the-sex-but-having-the-desire? Except that the word "romantic" just colours things pink and lots of people are put off by that...

Wait - when did your nightmares come to be my nightmares?! And why is it that I can be all motivated to write about this, but not at all motivated to write on my PhD subject?! Ack, it's all badness and woe!

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msmoat.livejournal.com

I so don't have time for this...but it's fun! (Hence your inability to resist it when you should be working on your doctorate research.)*g*

But if I say "committed relationship" then some people'd say you could have that just as friends too, and that's not what I mean either
Yeah, exactly! I need slashy subtext...and in fiction I prefer that to be overt. Hmm. I do quite like pre-slash (although it's not as satisfying as slash) but I don't tend to reread gen stories where the lads specifically state that they are friends only, yet deeply committed to each other. Give me a committed relationship with overt slashy subtext at the least. (And preferably no longer subtext. *g*)

the character's intent... which is in turn to do with the author's intent, and that's a whole different question too...
Yes, and then we can get into the smarm battles. *g* But you know, I will define a story by what the author intended--slash, gen, het. Whether there is sex or not; whether there is commitment or not. "Et in Italia Ego" is slash, although there's no committed romantic relationship at the end (yeah, right *g*).

Still, I think you're right that there has to be, on the part of at least one character, a desire for a sexual/romantic relationship with the other one in the pairing. Ah, and there's another wrinkle. I wouldn't call a story in which Bodie goes off with some male OC, after revealing he's gay but has no desire for Doyle, a slash story. How about you? (Yet exchange Murphy for "some male OC" and you've got some Meg Lewtan stories. Those are slash. Hmm.... *g*)

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Oh, I'm so about to leave to catch a bus, but just before I do... *g*

I totally agree that slash doesn't have to mean a final committed and eternal relationship - for a start that's not real life, and I do like my stories to be generally true to real life (even if it's a real life set on another planet where the lads are technically different species... *g*)! It's more the wanting, for however long or short a time that lasts - that's the romance of it, for me, so there's the slash of it, for me...

Ooh - but slash also for me is specific to episode-based stories. So I wouldn't see B/OC as slash really, because the / is the one between two characters' names... So B/D, B/M or B/C if you have to (*shudders at anything except B/D really...*) but B/OC isn't really slash to me, because the OC doesn't exist in canon... I think! (*thinks as she types and reserves the right to change mind later*!) Cos original fiction about characters who are gay isn't slash to me, it's original m/m fiction. And I'm less interested in that, tbh... (And I probably wouldn't like those Meg Lewtan stories either... *g*)

*runs to bus catch bus* - see you at the other end!

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msmoat.livejournal.com

*runs to bus catch bus*
I hope you made it! I'll be catching a plane later today, but hopefully not running.... *g*

It's more the wanting, for however long or short a time that last
Yeah, I'd agree with that. *g* And that's true romance, isn't it?

B/OC isn't really slash to me, because the OC doesn't exist in canon.
And I'll buy this as well. *g* So..."slash" is a pairing that can be found in canon, even if set in an AU universe. Well, it makes sense to me! *g* Hmm...but then what about crossovers that have, say, Bodie paired with a guy from another show? That wouldn't be "slash" by this definition, but it would be by lots of other people's...and probably me as well. Yikes! I wouldn't read it, mind, but I'd have to call it "slash". Ugh.

It gets complicated, doesn't it? *g* Basically, I'm with you, and I'm just causing problems in an attempt to avoid prepping for a class. *g*

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Ooh - good luck with the plane! You're probably on it now... hope it's going somewhere wonderful for you!

You tricky-question-er you... (I like it though! *g*) I guess I'd call crossovers slash too actually - because the characters are still from canon eps, just the canon eps of two different shows... it's where the original character is completely made up that I'm not sure I'd call it slash... although since Bodie would be, then I suppose... hmmn. You remember I said I was allowed to change my mind... *g* Although... maybe I won't... Not sure what I would call that sitch, mind... Hmmmn...

*wanders off to bed, thinking and mulling*

Hope you got your class sorted - and preferably quiet enough that you could go on thinking about slash fic... *g*

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Can anyone tell me if a (very broad) consensus exists on what the difference is between 'gen' and 'het'? And if it does, what that difference actually is?

Many thanks.

Confused of Camden

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Ooh - good question... I've been reading all sorts of things about this lately, and hearing all sorts of ideas. Might be quite good to post this as a discussion topic of its own, if you're up for it? Or I could, if you like..?

I tend to think of het as being a story where there is a love relationship between m/f, and gen as a story where there is no relationship involved beyond ones of friendship/comradeship/colleagueship (and all the other ships *g*) etc... But I gather lots of people are confusing the issue these days, by calling stories gen if they involve a het-relationship...

Be interesting to see who thinks what though, if you fancy having the question posed in a post of its own where more people might see it?

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Ooh - good question... I've been reading all sorts of things about this lately, and hearing all sorts of ideas. Might be quite good to post this as a discussion topic of its own, if you're up for it? Or I could, if you like..?

Well, I don't mind, but I don't have much to say on it 'cos I wasn't sure what the difference was. But others might and it's an interesting topic.

I tend to think of het as being a story where there is a love relationship between m/f, and gen as a story where there is no relationship involved beyond ones of friendship/comradeship/colleagueship (and all the other ships *g*) etc...

Right, that's what *I* thought the distinction was between the two terms. Thanks for that.

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I think it's next to impossible to come up with a universal definition for gen, het or slash. I think the best thing is for the web owner or journal owner to explain up front what they have on their site and how it's labeled. I know on my site I clearly state what types of slash stories one would find on my site and what my OTP is so there are no big surprises in my stuff.

Personally, I agree that het involves a female. What one would call a story where there is a m/m relationship and then the male is involved in a m/f relationship is beyond me, except something to avoid! *bg* Gen to me means as close to a canon episode as possible. A strong case story with the same type of friendship I see on screen is gen to me.

I don't really go for what people call pre-slash. It sounds like a writer who can't quite decide what to do with the relationship. I'm more the up front kind of gal. It's either gen or slash to me. I'm not good with reading the subtle undertones when the characters aren't saying or doing anything about their relationship other than being best friends.

Slash can be G rated as far as I'm concerned, but "pre-slash" generally means the reader is praying that the relationship might someday maybe hopefully be slashed but the writer didn't really explain it or danced around it or plain avoided it.

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Personally, I agree that het involves a female. What one would call a story where there is a m/m relationship and then the male is involved in a m/f relationship is beyond me, except something to avoid!

I think I can *understand* this kind of story (although it doesn't appeal to me, but I can understand it) because I can understand the reverse happening: when a male from a hetero relationship becomes involved or falls in love with another male - which is what happened in one of my all-time favourite stories, Forever True, by Elizabeth Holden - so I suppose I'd have to accept the reverse of that. Whether or not one considers Forever True to be a slashy story - because there's a female - is another matter, I suppose. I'd always considered it to be very slashy but that's just because my idea of 'slash' is the coming together or sexual discovery, connection etc. betwen two people of the same sex who wouldn't normally be involved with a member of the same sex.

I don't really go for what people call pre-slash. It sounds like a writer who can't quite decide what to do with the relationship. I'm more the up front kind of gal. It's either gen or slash to me.

No, I don't mind the subtle approach at all which I think is often inherent in pre-slash stories, and I think pre-slash itself can be viewed as just another (earlier) stage in Bodie and Doyle's relationship. I much prefer a more realistic gradual build up to whatever is going to happen between the two main characters: the wondering over what certain signs or actions may mean; the apprehension over whether or not something *is* going to develop between them; and I'd rather the writer demonstrates things in a story as opposed to telling me - if I'm told everything there's nothing left for me, the reader, to work on........no challenge, no discoveries, no thinking, no nothing, really.

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No, I don't mind the subtle approach at all which I think is often inherent in pre-slash stories, and I think pre-slash itself can be viewed as just another (earlier) stage in Bodie and Doyle's relationship. I much prefer a more realistic gradual build up to whatever is going to happen between the two main characters: the wondering over what certain signs or actions may mean; the apprehension over whether or not something *is* going to develop between them; and I'd rather the writer demonstrates things in a story as opposed to telling me - if I'm told everything there's nothing left for me, the reader, to work on........no challenge, no discoveries, no thinking, no nothing, really.

Oh, I don't mind subtle working towards something. But subtle working towards nothing, with the writer having the characters tell us in some way that they are just good friends, special mates, etc. means "gen" to me. I don't "read around" the writer's clear intent and believe I see slash. It could be because I think gen is okay. People love gen, and want to read a good gen story. I have friends who write gen. I can skip the gen story that is labeled as such and not feel like I'm missing something. I think that's because I started out writing gen in Sentinel and I meant the stories to be exactly what I presented: two men as close as friends can be.

But that being said, I know folks see slash in stories I don't, like that one rec'd a week ago. I saw a close, loving friendship between two mates who would die for each other. But I didn't see any indication that either was thinking about their partner in any other way but someone they loved and trusted with their life. To me, in that particular story, it translated into family, the theme of the story. Not a big deal if others see "pre-slash". I just didn't see it. When I write, I'm about as subtle as a train-wreck, I'm afraid.

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A strong case story with the same type of friendship I see on screen is gen to me.

It's just a different way of seeing things. On screen I see lots of slash *potential*: like the unnecessarily long holding of eye contact; staring close into each other's faces; Doyle gently holding Bodie's hand to wake him up; Bodie staring into Doyle's face as he wakes *him* up, again, very gently; one crying when the other is wounded; Bodie hardly able to keep his hands off Doyle in some episodes.......and if you've ever watched an episode with the volume turned right down they flirt/argue like mad a lot of the time.....not the typical behaviour of your average bloke, I wouldn't have thought or even two very close mates.

It's either gen or slash to me

Now I can always see a whole world in between those two labels, or how they evolve from *being* just two macho blokes to ones who are passionately in love with each other.

But subtle working towards nothing, with the writer having the characters tell us in some way that they are just good friends, special mates, etc. means "gen" to me.

To me, subtle working towards nothing means just that, *nothing*. (And I don't mind 'gen' either, but there just doesn't seem enough time in the day for both and slash is always at the top of my list).

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When I feel vaguely unfulfilled by the end of a story, I figure it had to be gen. *g* Or that I missed something, which, of course, is very possible.

Oh, the show is slashy as hell. That much is very true. Thank you, LC and MS.

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Oh, the show is slashy as hell. That much is very true. Thank you, LC and MS.

Sorry, I'm confused because I interpreted the following to mean that you *didn't* think the show was slashy:

Gen to me means as close to a canon episode as possible. A strong case story with the same type of friendship I see on screen is gen to me.

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The show is slashy because of MS and LC. Not because the writers meant to give us slash. Same as Sentinel. It's slashy because Burgi couldn't keep his hands off Maggart, not because Bilson and DeMeo wanted their characters to be all over each other.

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The show is slashy because of MS and LC. Not because the writers meant to give us slash.

Yes, I agree, but I thought you were likening the show to 'gen' stories i.e. stories which aren't slashy. For me, that's always been a central part of how I define slash (and I used to think that was how others defined it, too, but lately I've been moving away from that belief): what, I, as the spectator *sees* or imagines in the show, the potential of the characters, if you like, *my* reading between the lines or what I can see as the show's sub-text. If the writers *had* consciously wanted to give us slash, I don't think I'd have found it so slashy! I'm on fairly uncertain territory now, but isn't that what the term 'textual poaching' is about? That the audience can lift what they want from the script/show, extend it, develop its potential and basically make of it what they will.

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We all definitely see something different. You don't know how many times I've sat through Pros or Sentinel or S&H with my sister and she sees nothing that even remotely tells her it's slashy. I think she's missing the slash gene personally. She thinks I've got an extra weird gene.

And I tend to agree with her because in Sentinel, I don't see the characters having a sexual relationship "during canon" or off screen, and very much see it after the final ep. In Pros or S&H, I can so buy it during the actual run.

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In Pros or S&H, I can so buy it during the actual run.

I agree! It's almost a shame if people don't spot what *we* spot in shows like Pros - they don't know what they're missing.

Thanks for the interesting discussion.

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