The Golden Age...

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I have an idle question, arising slightly from recent ProsLit threads, and slightly from thinking about the Old Guard question of a few days ago...

When people talk about the "Golden Age" of Pros fandom, when in particular are they meaning? I'm never sure if this is one of those times that differs for everyone, or if there's a more generally accepted "period"? And what would constitute a "golden age"? Quantity of writing/activity? Quality? Something else?

I shan't post this to ProsLit as well, because I know it gets cross-listed there automatically, but it's really for both groups. I'm very curious...

Comments

[brenk.livejournal.com]

I think that if it's in terms of activity, that's complicated. I don't think there's any reliable way of measuring that, as you've got all the factors of different media, genres, what sort of activity, where, who, etc. etc. If things seem quiet in one place, they may be very busy elsewhere. The fandom's less fragmented than some, and there's some overlap among lists, LJs, etc., but there a groups of fans that others forget because they're not on their radar. And, of course, things are cyclic / sporadic so you'd need to evaluate over the very long term and take in so many variables that - yeah - tricky (and yes, I've been translating economics and stuff on how to evaluate things *g*).

Quality = can of worms *g*. I've heard so often, for instance, that 'gen is a load of crap' - and personally (and quite apart from the generalisation) I acknowledge that the few gen stories I read before the gen group got moving in around 1999 seemed pretty pretty non-sensational *to me*, so maybe my personal Golden Age in terms of 'stuff I like' is anything post-1999 because after then I found *more* that I liked, so back to quantity again, maybe? And, of course, I could have missed a lot that I *would* have liked: more evidence that a Golden Age is a personal thing.

Sure, you'll get little pockets of people nodding and agreeing that a certain age was golden, for whatever reason, but like lots of other fandom issues there's probably another pocket out there that says 'noooooooo, that period was anything but!' And what's more, to say that pocket A is right and pocket B is making pocket A the 'authority' - and I don't think fandom should really have 'authorities' on stuff that is really open to discussion to that extent. But again, that's me.

So basically, I think the only 'Golden Age' is 'the age that started when people first started writing about the lads', because I can't see any (representative) consensus happening about any other 'age' - one person's 'favourite era' is almost certainly another fan's 'oh, you mean the time it was like *that* - ugh'.

[phantomas.livejournal.com]

Considering that Pros has always been since its beginning an almost exclusively slash fandom, what Brenda says above works only from a gen fan pov (as she points out) I think that for a fandom, a Golden Age can be described as that moment in which the fandom is known across the other fandoms, in which it moves a high numbers of fans, in which production of stories and vids is constant, regular and abundant. I think this probably would place Pros Golden Age at some 15 years ago, approx (a couple of years before/after). The fandom never died, no matter what ex fans said, because as far as I know there has always been activity in the fandoms circle, but it used to be one of the Big fandoms, and not it's not anymore - which makes total sense, the media through which the fans communicate mostly or most visibly has changed (the web, the mailing lists, live journals), new fandoms are born and being a fan is slighly more socially acceptable than it used to be, just as slash is slighly more 'common' (gay rights and all that it involves).
However, more production/contemporary times certainly doesn't mean being dismissive of what it's being produced now. It's just a result of the noise level, there is more production therefore less time for discussing, appreciating. I am NOT making an issue of quality here, but pushing forward the idea than in 'slower' times, fans had more time to talk about a certain vid or story, to pass it around, to 'consume' it in groups (smaller or larger) and as a consequences, those works have come to be known better/be remembered more.

[brenk.livejournal.com]

I agree with that as your perception of a Golden Age if you do it as a 'comparative' thing, yes. That's an interesting point, and I wonder how many other fandoms where that's true. New, shiny fandoms have become more visible, although perhaps their fans are less 'faithful', and maybe there's this huge boom that fades as quickly as it came. Often wondered about that.

And yes, there is more noise level and less writing - I was ranting about that only the other day *g*. Some of the noise is fun, though, if you get a good debate going!

Mind, I take exception (without wanting to sound bitchy because it's not meant like that *at all*) at the 'has always been almost exclusively slash'. For a long time, I think that was true, but gen, as I said, grew noticeably as of around 1999 - although I also think some people tend to be unaware of that. It's a smaller part of the fandom, yes, but it's there. Around 200 people on the genfic list, plus other, smaller groups, so I don't consider the fandom to be 'almost exclusively' slash any more.

What I said was not actually from an exclusively gen point of view - as some people know I consider myself to be both a gen and slash fan and writer. The slash has perhaps been more visible, yes. I know that in early days Pros was known as a slash fandom because most of the writing - or what actually circulated - *was* slash. And I'm not disputing that. I know you're not being dismissive but gen is alive and kicking in the fandom. People are writing, chatting, posting. It's trundling along and has been through some interesting peaks. But when gen people feel they're considered virtually non-existent, it doesn't make 'em happy *g*. Understandably.

I'm not asking people to *like* gen, don't worry. I'd just like to avoid any other stray gen fans around feeling they're seen as totally insignificant. That's the sort of thing that turns golden ages into wartime *sigh*.

[franciskerst.livejournal.com]

My question may appear a little silly but why do you think has the "Pros" fandom been slash since the beginning? It was the opposite in my first fandom (which is "Man from UNCLE") and that seems more logical to me. Personally, I came to slash mainly because I was primarily interested in the partnership (in MFU) and soon realised I couldn't stand the het romance. But I was only moderately seduced by the sex for itself (when it's not made necessary by the plot line). Moreover I like gritty, realistic stories, conform to the show's spirit; so, maybe I should look for this kind of stuff in the gen fiction, providing it to be more focused on characters' development than mere action. That leads to my second question: are there classic, popular gen authors in the "Pros" fandom and who are they?

[brenk.livejournal.com]

No idea why Pros has been mainly slash - maybe, quite apart from lots of people seeing them as sexual partners, it was partly that the slashers organised themselves, and the idea spread from there. I've seen quite a few gen writers who wrote in their own little corner (like myself back in 1978) not knowing this thing called slash existed or even that others wrote fanfic. Why they never turned into groups like those on the old paper circuit I dunno - maybe they lacked a catalyst or a driving force, plus that community thing that gets people writing.

When I found Pros on the web in 1999 and saw that all the fiction was slash, I was gobsmacked and often wondered why myself. A few encounters with some some slashers who immediately trashed all gen at the outset was slightly offputting - and to me that was the offputting thing, not the slash! I'm sure there were (and are) gen fans who get all defensive and huffy about being dismissed by the slash majority, mind (and a lot *do* feel dismissed, I think), and there are some who are so anti-slash they've put a few backs up, so I'm not saying there's any right or wrong in it all. So yeah, the slash-gen thing in Pros has been fairly weird since the start, and virtually nobody who likes both ever speaks up (for fear of war, maybe?!). I think a few unfortunate comments on both sides has a lot to answer for, and is one reason why there's a gen/slash split in a lot of fandoms. It infuriates me as we're all FANS, dammit. And I'm digressing.

Some gen is definitely gritty and character-based, and I do honestly think it'd appeal to slashers even if they aren't going to get the sex scenes. As for classic, popular gen authors that's harder as the group I'm familiar with is relatively new (since 1999) and you have to join it to get access to *all* the stories. However, there's a lot of other stuff available at the group, including some interesting essays, links, etc. There's an annual award with various categories called the Cowleys, and the winners are perhaps a 'rec' in themselves.

The only biggish gen archive is here: http://prosfanfic.batcave.net/ and has a lot of stories from the group.

I'm always scared to recommend gen authors to slashers, but I'd recommend those by Laura in particular, and also joint stories by Sue and Carol. Oh, and Gil. I could show off and say mine as well as they've often been called 'pre-slash' *g* which I don't mind a bit - people can interpret how they like although I was surprised at first by slashers seeing them that way, although now... *g* no. But like all recs, it's very much a question of personal taste.

[franciskerst.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the tip; I had a look but didn't see many authors or stories (in comparison with the slash archives). I am not tired with slash but I was looking for a little more variety. By personal taste, I am attracted towards ambiguity, and I tend to appreciate most what is suggested or understated, not explicit; so, my genre of choice would be exactly between gen and slash. Not easy to find...

[phantomas.livejournal.com]

New, shiny fandoms have become more visible, although perhaps their fans are less 'faithful', and maybe there's this huge boom that fades as quickly as it came

Apparently, there have been rumours (of course rabidly denied) that the Harry Potter is dying/dead...which obviously is not happening, but simply, as you wrote, the trend explodes louder and then something else comes along, and a number of fans move on faster than it used to be.

Pros is well alive an dkicking after 25plus years, after all :)

re: the slash and gen debate *G* (and yes, I know you're not being bitchy! *hugs you*)...
I know that there is gen in the Pros, there has always been, and I am not dismissing it nor the quality of the material produced (I have enjoyed reading many gen stories myself), but numerically, it simply is a minority, that's all.

The Pros fandom is known as a slash one and that's its main trait - and historically, the only one or at least the very first to have been born as such (taking stories circulating widely as an example of historical presence).

It all of course depends in part on the circles one finds herself most in. As you say, the gen part of the fandom has been much more visible and active starting around 1999..which is 19 years after 1980, date in which already there were slash stories circulating among fans *G*

No one says (at least, no one I have heard/read/seen myself) that Pros gen is 'non-existent' (it's simply not a true statement!), but it's not distinctive of the whole fandom, and that's a quantitative fact. :)

[brenk.livejournal.com]

Hugs back :)

Have just been waffling on the subject of the 'slash fandom' thing to Francis Kerst on the same thread, and came up with a sort of theory because I agree with you - slash *circulated*, and once a movement gets going, writing happens. Why gen fans never got themselves organised, I dunno. Maybe the 'shared naughtiness' of it all was fun and got people sucked in, whereas gen writers were off in their own corners. Heck, if I'd known other people were writing *anything* about Pros back in 1980 I'd have been in there to share the fun!

I know you weren't saying gen didn't exist, don't worry - it was the 'virtually exclusively' slash that made me think 'no, no, gen's alive' - even though I'm by no means an exclusively gen person. I just wish more people would give some of it a chance, although that *also* requires gen people to take the step and interact a little with slashers (without it descending into bitchiness), and not just the other way around. And it just doesn't happen, except for a little flag-waving like mine *g*.

[blktauna.livejournal.com]

but pushing forward the idea than in 'slower' times, fans had more time to talk about a certain vid or story, to pass it around, to 'consume' it in groups (smaller or larger) and as a consequences, those works have come to be known better/be remembered more.

You bring up a very interesting point here. Now a days you are so spoiled for choice, we just consume rapidly and move on to the next. We treat fics like fast food, rather than a real meal.

[brenk.livejournal.com]

Hell yes. Definitely.

We need a 'slow food' movement within fandom, maybe?

[phantomas.livejournal.com]

We treat fics like fast food, rather than a real meal.

Yep, exactly, great comparison. And I say that about myself for the first, having observed how I react to what I find on my F-list and how I'm the first to read voraciously and then move on to the next fic.

[phantomas.livejournal.com]

And of course, because there is more out there (= on my pc screen), I devour and move on and, well, no, don't forget exactly, but what I read doesn't make the same impression as what I used to read made.
And that's why I've started to force myself to print stories again. Print, bound, read again. And then rec. Of course, it takes time, which we all lack one way or another. If we read lots, we don't write much, if we write, ther eis nottime to read, if we icon, there's little time to rec, and so on :(

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

We treat fics like fast food, rather than a real meal.
Great analogy... I wonder if we sort of "dive in" to fandom more too, because something like an lj comm is right there, potentially in front of you 24 hours a day (*coughs*)? Whereas when it was via post/cons/?? people were sort of forced to consume more slowly just because technology wouldn't let them be so voracious... Hmmn...

[blktauna.livejournal.com]

I wonder if we sort of "dive in" to fandom more too, because something like an lj comm is right there, potentially in front of you 24 hours a day

Absolutely! Before, when it took longer to find anything at all, the easily bored went on to something else and only the people who really wanted and were interested in say Pros, kept going, making connections, looking for stories, tapes, what have you. Every new offering was read, discussed and thought about because you only got stories or vids in a very intermittent way. There was time to think about what you just read. And people did read, not just skim like I hear about now.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Sorry for the very belated response, although I did read these posts when they were made... turned into one of those weeks I'm afraid...

a Golden Age can be described as that moment in which the fandom is known across the other fandoms, in which it moves a high numbers of fans, in which production of stories and vids is constant, regular and abundant
That was my instinctive thought too, but to be honest it leads me straight into more questions - what do you call high numbers and constant, regular, abundant?! How much is much..? And maybe that's a question that can't be answered, especially in any kind of comparative way - I'm assuming that pre-internet fandoms were, if not smaller, less visible and harder for people to find/know about/join? (Gods know I didn't even catch glimpses, although maybe I just hung out in the wrong places *g*) Whereas HP fandom, for example, seems fairly easily visible to anyone who can google - and for that matter, I found Pros fandom almost immediately I googled the show... I wonder what numbers are like in Pros these days compared to earlier days..?

in 'slower' times, fans had more time to talk about a certain vid or story, to pass it around, to 'consume' it in groups (smaller or larger) and as a consequences, those works have come to be known better/be remembered more
Oh this is really interesting too - I know I'm guilty of gorging on Pros, and (as people often complain) posts on lj seem to pass very quickly out of sight, so unless you're in an ongoing conversation with someone it is hard to follow a discussion thread and so I guess people don't so much, and so fic/vids etc do seem to be out of sight quite quickly... Then again, I'm not sure that's just fic and fandom!

Although along those lines, I did respond at long last (after finally reading a particular book) to a post someone had made in their lj back in December - and my response was seen and responded to in its turn, so maybe we could have the same sort of long, ongoing discussions in lj if we only remember/have the motivation to do it...

[brenk.livejournal.com]

I think we all have our 'gorging' periods - I know I did when I first 'found' fanfic on the Net. It was like, literally, a feast after a famine. I was completely caught up in it, and read *anything*. Everything. There was just so *much*. And then the pendulum swung to 'picky', which isn't that useful either if you get so picky you condemn some writers out of hand because story X didn't float your boat.

Hm.

And yeah, that *is* the problem with LJ - keeping up with interesting discussions requires effort. But I agree that it's worthwhile when a debate is interesting.

Maybe another post from the comm. people to say 'hey, we're still discussing topic X over here'? Or is that a daft idea? I dunno. As long as it *is* a discussion and not a kerfuffle, but that can be a question of perception. Hm again.

The Golden Age thing really is interesting, though. Just hearing about different people's take on what that age was is fascinating.

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

For me, a Golden Age is when the fandom is quite active, especially as far as writing and, showing my own preference, zine publication. There is a certain amount of that, "the best of times" in regards to writing but that may be because there's so much of it being done, so of course you're going to get more quality stuff.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Hee - but what is "quite active"? I'm not nearly fandom-wide or longlived enough to have much idea about numbers you see. I wonder if Pros once had twice as many fen? Ten times? More? How many zines were ever available at once? There are, what, two or three Pros zines still being published (please tell me if I'm wrong, somebody!) - how many were being published at the "height" of fandom? I know it's probably difficult to know now, unless you were there...

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

Going by my own list (I have all but about a dozen of the Pros zines ever published, and being the anal retentive soul I am they're listed in a database by title *and* year,) there were on average a dozen zines published every year starting in the mid 80's through the 90's. I'd say that was the most active time. 2000 through 2004, it dropped to an average of half a dozen. In 2005, there were three. This year, there's been one. I know of at least one more that's supposed to be published this year and I'm assuming another one from Requiem. So again, probably three for 2006.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh perfect, that was just the sort of thing I wondered! Thanks very much for that info... D'you mind if I ask, have you been in Pros fandom long yourself? D'you think there are fewer zines because there's more online fic - and if so does that necessarily mean there's less fic being written, or is it just published in different format..? I gather that's the presumed wisdom but it's interesting that it might translate to "less activity". It'd be interesting to try and count up say the number of fics "published" at places like Safehouse, or Hatstand in 2005 and contrast that with the number of zines... (and btw I prefer fic in zines too, but I'll take what I can get!)

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

Reading this thread with interest. Really have nothing profound to add, but I do have a question. As a relative newbie to even the whole concept of fanfic/ fandom, I find it amazing that fandoms for shows that went out so many years ago *are* so vibrant and active. Someone mentioned that Pros is not the BIG fandom it used to be - so back then, what were the other big fandoms? The Trek one, I assume ( btw, is that considered the grandaddy of them all?) And now, what are considered to be the big fandoms?

Geography means I will never make it to any kind of a con, so I'm just curious about all this:))

[franciskerst.livejournal.com]

My other fandom (Man from U.N.C.L.E.) has been, if not huge, at least very active since the beginning, that is to say in the same time as Star Trek's start and some of the oldest fans claim the MFU fanfiction to be even earlier than the ST's one.

By the way, there is a very porous border between the gen and the slash fanfic in MFU; most writers do both genres and, in spite of rare and mild misunderstandings, the relations between the two groups are excellent.

[blktauna.livejournal.com]

in spite of rare and mild misunderstandings, the relations between the two groups are excellent.

on the surface perhaps.

[franciskerst.livejournal.com]

The surface seems to get strangely deep, then: At Media West (the main convention), the panels and parties are common and frequently authors of the two genres share rooms; many have close friends in the other group and anyway a lot of them write in both genres, depending of their mood. Even the male gen writers (there are some) appear, if not really understanding, at least tolerant.

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

A very thin surface, ahd the reason I left the MFU gen groups I belonged to.