Reading Room 7th (-ish!) March - Facets ii: Stolen Moments by Maggie Hall

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Well it's not Monday any more - it's barely even Tuesday, but finally - today's story is Facets ii: Stolen Moments by Maggie Hall. It's been one of my favourite stories for ages, although I've not read it for a while, so I'm crossing fingers it still is! It's here at the Circuit Archive, and on the ProsLib Story Disc, and it's also in the Nudge Nudge Wink Wink 3 zine.

I adore this story, right from the start. Hall sets up our lads as lying cosy together indoors as the rain and wind sheet down outside. The fire's crackling, and the lads have been shagging all day long! This is partly because they're about to be separated - Bodie's being sent up north on a long op. Neither of them want him to go, although neither of them would say as much, or give up the job that they love to prevent it - but they feel it.

Doyle has proven how far he'd go for Bodie by having his nipple pierced while they were away in Amsterdam, and the feel of it and the meaning of it turns them both on fiercely, every time. Proving how far he'll go for Doyle in his turn, Bodie gives him the earring he stole from his mother when he left home, and then even more rashly promises not to sleep with anyone while he's away - he'll wait until he gets back to Ray. Doyle laughs at this - they're realistic with each other - but Bodie finds that it's what he wants to do while he's away, and he returns to CI5 on a fairly strong sexual simmer, looking forward to seeing Doyle that evening.

Trouble is, Cowley's sent Doyle off on an op now, undercover in private sex clubs, and Bodie has to wait. Or does he? Murphy bounds in and lets him know that Doyle is indeed back, and he's in the rest room. So he is, surrounded by racously amused and disbelieving agents - not only dressed perfectly as something like a rent boy, but wearing Bodie's mum's earring. And, it turns out, the nipple ring.

They end up having frantic sex in the only room in the building that is - probably - going to be empty for long enough, Cowley's office. It's hot, it's full of meaning for them both, and revelations too - that Bodie would go so far for Doyle, and that Doyle would do anything for Bodie, even risking his job by letting Bodie fuck him in Cowley's office.

And that's pretty much everything that I adore about this fic. It's cosy and sexy at the same time, it's pretty realistic to the lads, I reckon - I can imagine them being like this. Not at all soppy with each other, despite being so patently deeply in love and adoration. It's a neat trick, that, for a writer!

There's a few bits where I couldn't quite hear them (the bit with "Penny gets you a pound...", for instance), but the author had convinced me so well that it was them in every other way that by the time my eyes had run over the words my brain wasn't fussed. *g* Same with "You'll keep your wally dry" - what in the world's a wally?! I'm guessing just a typo that was never corrected (I'm reading the zine version - ahh, paper! *g*) Bodie's gonna keep his willy dry for Doyle! *vbg* But it was them, in all the ways that matter. I loved their recovery when Cowley got to the office, and his suspicion that they'd been doing something, but no evidence about what!

So - what do you think - was it Bodie and Doyle for you? Would Doyle get his nipple pierced for Bodie? Would they lie by the fire together like that, after a whole day of being in bed? What about their reluctance to part, but doing it anyway? Does Doyle really look better in that gear than Linda Keogh would? Have things changed now that Bodie's proved he's devoted to Doyle? Would Cowley really not be able to work out what was going on?! *g* Mostly - did you like it?

Comments

[paris7am.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this grand review and for hosting! Like you, I remembered really loving this story. I still do! although I had a few reservations about it this time. Don't get me wrong - the writing is gorgeous! Hall is so good at writing all the emotions without it seeming overly emotional (perhaps by making Bodie so self conscious about it?). So intensely sexual - phew it's getting HOT in here! And with bonus nipple piercing, which always strikes me as somewhat unique, even though when I think about it I realize that we have a fair bit of fetish and kink in our fic! I love Bodie's sense of humor ( 33 shopping days til Christmas)! I also really like the very masculine attitudes, the depiction of ci5, the other agents, and Cowley.

I had twinges of something that didn't hit the right notes for me, though. Something small but that scented it all somehow. I don't even know exactly what it is! I think it's drawn up in Bodie's voice, though. Every so often his narration seems off to me, or just has a hint of unreliability or something? I thought maybe it was my romantic heart being offended that they have been together this long, loving each other, and still having sex happily with others? Which I do understand is unrealistic of me! Maybe it's in the way he described Doyle - which is definitely coloured by his personal taste - but despite which I think we still see an incredible Doyle - so strong, mature, giving, sensual, capable, smart... the list goes on.

Maybe I am chafing against the idea that Bodie would casually accept that they both would put the job ahead of each other? I know that having it off in Cowley's office in the end is sort of a nod towards a change in that attitude, but again my romantic heart wants it clarified and crystal clear where the loyalty lies. Maybe I'm asking too much - I know it's not realistic! - and that's the tension and maybe the tragedy of it. Even the last bit, where Bodie says he doesn't want Doyle to keep the ear piercing confuses me. It can be understood in different ways!

All in all, I guess I kick myself for being so picky and decreeing my preferences upon things... But if I didn't, all I could say would be how much I love the story!

As for your questions, I absolutely believe Doyle would get his nipple pierced for Bodie, as long as he was into it too - I don't think he would be self sacrificing about it, though. Would they lie by the fire together like that, after a whole day of being in bed? Yes!!! Their reluctance to part, but doing it anyway? As I said above, the way Bodie thinks about it bugs me. Maybe it's the taking for granted laughing about fidelity that puts me off? Or the very casual "We both wouldn't turn down an op" attitude... Doyle really looking better in that gear than Linda Keogh would? Of course he does! Have things changed now that Bodie's proved he's devoted to Doyle? I thought it would, but the earring conversation made me second guess. But I'm erring on the side that yes, it makes a big difference. Would Cowley really not be able to work out what was going on?! I love Bodie thinking that he's pulled one over on Cowley, but I don't really believe he did... Mostly - did you like it? Yes, absolutely!

I went on far more than I needed to here, but one last thing. I was very smitten with Wiseguy back in the day (before I even heard of the internet or fandom)! Seeing the connection to those characters kind of made me stumble - wondering who was who - but then also being amazed that it was adapted so well and fit Bodie and Doyle. Was anyone else here into Wiseguy back then?

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

I had twinges of something that didn't hit the right notes for me, though. Something small but that scented it all somehow. I don't even know exactly what it is! I think it's drawn up in Bodie's voice, though.

I think I'd agree on this but I can't remember any specifics! Just an overall impression... maybe my reaction's a bit mixed up in that not only was I uninterested in nipple piercing but in not being able to see it being that important to Bodie. Who would want to bring pain to someone they love? I. don't. get. it.

[jat-sapphire.livejournal.com]

The way I read it was that it's so amazing to Bodie because he had definite ideas about what Doyle would and would NOT do --and the piercing is something he was sure Doyle would not do. But he did . . . for Bodie. That's what makes it such a turn on, even before Bodie adds the earring that represents the last he has of his mother. It's an ultimate intimacy. So the pain isn't the point.

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

So the pain isn't the point.

Well pain is implied by Bodie and the mention of disinfectant etc. and the fact that he expects Doyle not to want to have it done might suggest that it's not a very pleasant experience (or it could be for other reasons). Or even if it's not painful why push your partner into something they're not keen on? To do it 'for Bodie'? when he's laying down his life on a daily basis for him? Isn't that enough to show his love for Bodie? Surely this is more about testing someone rather than any display of intimacy? Seeing how far you can expect your partner to bow to your wishes. How much control you can exert.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I think I pulled a few things out of the story that made it clear it was something that Doyle actually did want:
Our first introduction to the ring is how much Doyle enjoys it/is turned on by it.
Watching the pleasure sweep his partner's face when he toyed with the ring made his groin ache; he had never known a better aphrodisiac than Doyle's reaction to the fetish.
[Bodie's] tonguetip caught in the circle of gold, heart caught by the unconscious display of pleasure on his lover's face.
Doyle just sighed and rolled his shoulders, increasing the tension on the ring in Bodie's teeth and dragging a shudder from them both. Doyle didn't often acknowledge the ring's presence, but Bodie knew how much his partner enjoyed it. Something about it excited Doyle so strongly

This is what got Bodie thinking about Doyle having a nipple ring
"I'll have to get you a ring and drag you around by it then" powerfully aroused Doyle
(again, all about Doyle's desires)

The Doyle agrees to have it done - he didn't have to, we have plenty of evidence that he's strong enough to stand up to Bodie, and Bodie's actually surprised that he agrees.

Yes, there's disinfectant involved, and nerves at the sight of the gun they use, but that's the same for anyone who has a piercing - the same happened to me when I had my ears pierced! It's not painful for more than a moment of a second, and then it's gone. Teenage girls (and boys, but mostly girls) famously pierce their own ears with nothing more than an ice cube and a sewing needle sterilised over a match flame!

I think Bodie expects Doyle not to want it because it's a fairly blatant symbol of sexual desire. If the other agents saw him with it then he'd be ragged no end, and anyone who saw it would automatically equate Doyle (anyone) with sex. Because that's basically why people have their nipples pierced, for the sexual thrill of it. Some people are happy to be blatant about what turns them on, but how many of us really want other people to know what we like behind closed doors? How many of us fans feel that if people knew we read m/m porn, even if we call it erotica because it's written not usually as pictures, that those people would look at us differently. In fact I remember telling someone about Pros slash when I was in Alaska, and she actually invited me to be part of a threesome with her and her husband - based, she said, on the idea that I must be pretty open about that sort of thing because of the slash! That was in the 2000s - back in the 1980s it was even more "exotic" to give any indication of sexual preferences outside the norm!

So I really don't see the nipple ring as any kind of "control" on Bodie's part - except insofar as it's part of a game where he recognises that a little bit of Doyle occasionally wants to be controlled - wants to be "led around on a ring", the part that gives Bodie responsibility for the ring and when he wears it, rather than deciding himself. In fact I see it more as evidence of their total communication and compatability - Bodie seeing something that Doyle wants, not having to have any big discussion about it, but satisfying that need in him. That bit's about love - but the actual nipple ring? Pure sexual desire! *g*

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

I think I pulled a few things out of the story that made it clear it was something that Doyle actually did want:

But isn’t the writer ambivalent about this? With the following examples:

Symbolic of the lengths Doyle would go to please him--when pushed enough-
"Must've gone insane," Doyle muttered, smiling nonetheless.
Bodie often wondered what he might be missing...but not enough to do it to himself, that was certain.
Bodie was still stunned when Doyle agreed to keep the appointment.
Doyle stopped dead and turned on him. "All right, then, if it'll shut you up, I'll do it."
Bodie examined his partner closely, trying to determine how he was taking this. Doyle's knuckles had gone white on the chair arms, and he was staring with vaguely hostile eyes at the bird. Bodie knelt by the chair. "Love you, you know," he whispered while the girl's back was turned. "It'll be over in a minute."
All those months ago, now, and Bodie was still surprised that Doyle had done it.

And isn't there a contradiction here in that if Doyle did want it then it diminishes the value or worth of the commitment? i.e. it’s no big deal or sacrifice to give Bodie what he wants because Doyle wants it too.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I'm not reading any of the things you list as suggesting Doyle didn't want to do it.

Symbolic of the lengths Doyle would go to please him--when pushed enough-
The "pushing enough" is part of their relationship - it's just how they communicate. Neither of them are overly soppy or obedient to the other, they tease and "push" each other to get what they want, and they each enjoy resisting for a while before they give in.

"Must've gone insane," Doyle muttered, smiling nonetheless.
Doyle's being teased here - in context this is just him teasing back: "What will you think of next?" Bodie mumbled, ... heart caught by the unconscious display of pleasure on his lover's face.
"I didn't think of it this time," Doyle whispered denial, arching his chest up and demanding more attention.
"You did do the next best thing, mate; you let me think for you."
"Must've gone insane," Doyle muttered, smiling nonetheless.
Bodie tugged sharply with his tongue, dragging a staccato grunt of pleasure from his lover. ...
Doyle just sighed and rolled his shoulders, increasing the tension on the ring in Bodie's teeth and dragging a shudder from them both. ... but Bodie knew how much his partner enjoyed it. Something about it excited Doyle so strongly..."

Bodie often wondered what he might be missing...but not enough to do it to himself, that was certain.
Bodie's the more staid one in this respect - he's impressed by the fact that "Ray would do almost anything, Bodie supposed, if he thought it'd feel good enough."

Bodie was still stunned when Doyle agreed to keep the appointment.
As above - getting a nipple ring would have been a pretty way out thing to do back then.

Doyle stopped dead and turned on him. "All right, then, if it'll shut you up, I'll do it."
That's part of their joke/relationship - "He would pretend it didn't, acting bored or disinterested, and eventually he would give in "just to shut you up, Bodie". Doyle's pretending, teasing (see above "must have gone insane").

Bodie examined his partner closely, .... Doyle's knuckles had gone white on the chair arms, and he was staring with vaguely hostile eyes at the bird. Bodie knelt by the chair. "Love you, you know," he whispered while the girl's back was turned. "It'll be over in a minute."
Yes, but again, see my comments about anyone being confronted with the staple-gun for their ears. Immediately its done Doyle drags Bodie away to have sex - that's not the actions of someone who doesn't want something.

All those months ago, now, and Bodie was still surprised that Doyle had done it.
As above - it's a way-out thing to do, and Bodie's more conservative about things like that. Compare it, too, to Bodie's reaction when Doyle has his ear pierced so that he can wear Bodie's mum's diamond earring. He didn't have to do that at all either, but he knew it would turn Bodie on. Bodie's reaction - "Bodie feigned surprise; there was only one reason in this universe that Ray Doyle had put in his mum's earring, only one goal he'd had--and it hadn't a damned thing to do with the job or George Cowley." and later, he thinks "That Doyle had done this, had risked Cowley's wrath and the Squad's disdain" Doyle's done it, voluntarily, because he knew it would turn Bodie on - I'm not seeing any kind of control there.

And isn't there a contradiction here in that if Doyle did want it then it diminishes the value or worth of the commitment? i.e. it’s no big deal or sacrifice to give Bodie what he wants because Doyle wants it too.
I don't see that either. It is a big deal, because if anyone else knew about it, they'd be teased mercilessly, or more to the point, suspected of being gay, which of course was a major deal then. Doyle's risking that to give Bodie what he wants. He wouldn't take that risk for any other reason, even if he fancies the idea/wants it, but he will for Bodie.

If anything I'm seeing a contradiction in what you're suggesting - if Doyle doesn't want something but lets Bodie force him into it then it's Bodie controlling him, but it makes Doyle's action more valuable? Surely if Doyle had been forced into it then his action would be less valuable!

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

I'm not reading any of the things you list as suggesting Doyle didn't want to do it.

And that’s the fun of discussion, that we see things differently. And my suggestions have been just that, tentative suggestions that the writer is sending out mixed messages regarding Doyle's attitude i.e. it's not black and white.

Symbolic of the lengths Doyle would go to please him--when pushed enough-
The "pushing enough" is part of their relationship - it's just how they communicate.

Yes, Bodie winds up Doyle all the time (Doyle less so) but I think in this story he’s a bit more serious than he’s letting on. He wants this to happen, for some strange reason it’s important to him that Doyle should do this thing for him.

"Must've gone insane," Doyle muttered, smiling nonetheless.
Doyle's being teased here - in context this is just him teasing back: "What will you think of next?" Bodie mumbled, ... heart caught by the unconscious display of pleasure on his lover's face.
"I didn't think of it this time," Doyle whispered denial, arching his chest up and demanding more attention.

No one is denying Doyle enjoys the fruits of his actions. My suggestion is that he might not be as keen to undergo the process of having it done as Bodie is for him to have it done.

Bodie was still stunned when Doyle agreed to keep the appointment.
As above - getting a nipple ring would have been a pretty way out thing to do back then.

Don’t forget this is way past 1960s Swinging London and the permissive society and in terms of cultural norms London was and is almost a city state. Wearing nipple rings in many places where the young gathered probably would have been acceptable. To work? No, but then not wearing a tie would have raised eyebrows.

Bodie examined his partner closely, .... Doyle's knuckles had gone white on the chair arms, and he was staring with vaguely hostile eyes at the bird. Bodie knelt by the chair. "Love you, you know," he whispered while the girl's back was turned. "It'll be over in a minute."
Yes, but again, see my comments about anyone being confronted with the staple-gun for their ears. Immediately its done Doyle drags Bodie away to have sex - that's not the actions of someone who doesn't want something.

Well, to repeat, it’s the actions of someone who’s enjoying the outcome of the action but doesn’t necessarily welcome the actual process of having it done.

If anything I'm seeing a contradiction in what you're suggesting - if Doyle doesn't want something but lets Bodie force him into it then it's Bodie controlling him, but it makes Doyle's action more valuable? Surely if Doyle had been forced into it then his action would be less valuable!

In one sense, yes, you could argue that, but you could also look at it from a different angle (or turn it on its head) and suggest that *if* he wasn’t that eager to undergo the process the very fact he does it (for Bodie) shows how much he cares for him. If he was unbothered by it then that would show less sacrifice on his part, less emotion, less commitment. (I think I've argued for both sides in this discussion...)

[paris7am.livejournal.com]

I am clueless about where to reply to this discussion about the piercing... Also can see each of the arguments and how they make sense, despite being contradictory! It occured to me that it might have something to do with Bodie's pov, his narration. We're perceiving Doyle through his lens, and despite their legendary telepathy, I think B gets it wrong sometimes. I don't know if this example makes sense, but the example of it that popped to mind was when B interpreted D's actions as wanting to 'make sure he got his turn on top' or however he put it. It may have been true, but it may have been B's own slant showing through, you know?

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Sorry the first part of my earlier reply to you was rubbish! I did get the point you were making but for some reason failed to address it. I've kind of said elsewhere that I did realise the piercing was symbolic of something (love/control?) and that 'something' is open to interpretation.

[paris7am.livejournal.com]

jat_sapphire, I think that's a good way to look at it - as an ultimate intimacy. I think Bodie (and Doyle) each are excited by the taboo of it (if discovered) and the penetration of it (Bodie in particular seems to love watching the ring enter and leave Doyle's nipple).

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

nipple piercing ... Who would want to bring pain to someone they love? I. don't. get. it.
Jumping in here - I think the idea is that it's not really painful, or at least not for any longer than having your ears pierced is. And we don't see Doyle in pain for it any more than anyone who's nervous when they see a big needle coming for them, steels themselves, and then finds that it's quickly over and the benefits are about to begin. After that moment it's all about how sexy it feels to Doyle, and therefore how much Bodie loves it too... *g*

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

I think I've sort of covered this in my earlier answer to jat_sappire above.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

*goes up there*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Hey, it's far more interesting to have discussions about things we don't agree/might not/wonder about than just to say "yes, me too..." *g* It's what I'm always really hoping for when I post. *g*

I think it's drawn up in Bodie's voice, though. Every so often his narration seems off to me...maybe it was my romantic heart being offended that they have been together this long, loving each other, and still having sex happily with others?
That reminds me of something you said about another fic I think - can't quite remember which one. To be honest I rather liked that, because it fitted entirely with the episodes and yet we're also shown how deeply committed to each other the lads are. They might go and have sex with others - well, in this fic the idea is that Bodie does, whereas Doyle "doesn't need it" - but at the end of the day they will always come back to each other. If a story fits with the episodes right through from the first to last, then it makes our B/D more real for me, somehow... It's the ones where they're supposed to be entirely monogamous at the end of the first season (or the like *g*) which I believe in less, because we see them dating women, in the eps. Suddenly it's an AU story, rather than one about my B/D lads. But Hall shows us so well here that they don't care about those other women at all (which is horrid in its own way, of course, and exactly why ex-undercover agents over here have been in serious trouble, though I also thought that was a bit fair, to be honest), it's always them-them-them together that matters.

Maybe it's in the way he described Doyle - which is definitely coloured by his personal taste - but despite which I think we still see an incredible Doyle
Oh, now you've got me wondering which bits of the Doyle-description you don't agree with... I don't think I spotted anything that I thought was negative about Doyle, but maybe I automatically balanced it with other things...

Even the last bit, where Bodie says he doesn't want Doyle to keep the ear piercing confuses me.
Yeah, I hate that Bodie's still sort of denying them out loud - but then they had to back then, and his horror of them being outed rings so true... it brings a sort of bittersweet note to the story, I think, keeps it Pros-gritty as well as being so romantic, so again I can accept it in the context...

I know it's not realistic! - and that's the tension and maybe the tragedy of it.
that's it exactly, I think! That's the tension and tragedy of that whole part of human history (which is still ongoing in alot of places/people's minds too)...

I meant to try and track down the Wiseguy story, even though I've never seen the series (I'm guessing it was a series!), because I was curious about how similar the two stories would be...

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Thanks very much for this review.

I really thought I’d read and loved Stolen Moments years ago but I think I was confusing it with the author’s ‘skies’ story. I’m afraid I didn’t take to this story at all and the problem lies completely with me because it was beautifully written with some lovely moments between them… BUT, I wasn’t the slightest bit interested in the subject-matter i.e. the piercing of Doyle’s nipple! And reading on my kindle it felt like the whole story was going to be about that, in fact about half of it was and that seemed long enough and I can’t remember much about the second half.

So - what do you think - was it Bodie and Doyle for you? Would Doyle get his nipple pierced for Bodie?

In the context of the story? I honestly don’t know and I ‘m not sure I can see Bodie expecting him to let alone Doyle humouring him.

Would they lie by the fire together like that, after a whole day of being in bed?

Yeah, probably, tired out! Did you feel that scene was unlikely or out of character?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

BUT, I wasn’t the slightest bit interested in the subject-matter i.e. the piercing of Doyle’s nipple
Ah, that's a very different reading of the story to mine - I didn't think it was at all about that, that was just part of the story, one of a few things that show us how committed they are to each other, like Bodie giving Doyle his mum's earring, and promising to stay celibate for him on the long op and so on. Although I do wonder if reading it on a Kindle instead of on paper (or even a laptop/computer, where scrolling's easier) makes a difference. I've found that with other e-books - not being able to tell how long a scene goes on for - or being surprised by the sudden ending of a book or story! - affects the way I'm reading it, and makes me impatient or whatever for the next bit. Page-watching, rather than being able to anticipate the next bit...

I ‘m not sure I can see Bodie expecting him to let alone Doyle humouring him.
I'm guessing that's cos you're not into/sympathetic with the reasons for nipple-piercing in the first place! I really liked that, to be honest, as Bodie says, the lengths Doyle will go to to please him, and the idea that Bodie knew 100% that he'd never get his nipple pierced just because Bodie asked - except that he did... Doyle's committment to Bodie's desires, to braving things because he knows Bodie wants something... I don't think he'd do anything stupid or that he didn't want to, but that he'd be able to stretch himself, the same way they do on the job really... No one in their right minds wants to be in a car chase or a gun fight, but they both do it because they feel it will make things better (society) in the long run - it feels like the same kind of commitment from Doyle somehow... And I like the idea of Bodie being sexually mischievous, as much as he is cheeky-mischievous in general life, and Doyle going along with it, amused and loving it in the end, like in the eps. *g*

Did you feel that scene was unlikely or out of character?
No, not at all - I loved it! That said, I think the same scene written less skillfully wouldn't be believable at all. They're the right side of soppy in this for me - they're in bed together for the joy of the sex together as much as because they love each other, although I also love the way that Bodie pulls it back to meaning more when it's "a bit too reminiscent of zipless fucks". It strikes just the right balance for me. *g*

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Ah, that's a very different reading of the story to mine - I didn't think it was at all about that, that was just part of the story, one of a few things that show us how committed they are to each other,

Of course, the underlying commitment to each other was at the heart of the story as it is in most of the stories we read, but I just found this example of them showing undying love a bit boring - the logistics or practicalities of it - and there was just too much of it! And as I’ve touched on above, arguably, one partner convincing another one to do something they’re not keen on is just a desire to win control.

Although I do wonder if reading it on a Kindle instead of on paper (or even a laptop/computer, where scrolling's easier) makes a difference.

Yes, definitely, that’s why I mentioned it. The font for the percentage thingy was too small and I could never see how far I’d read but it seemed a long time and it was still about the flipping nipple piercing!

I ‘m not sure I can see Bodie expecting him to let alone Doyle humouring him.
I'm guessing that's cos you're not into/sympathetic with the reasons for nipple-piercing in the first place!

Well it would depend on what the reasons are but if it's about control or just getting your own way over a reluctant partner, then yes, I wouldn't support it but it's never been a subject important enough for me to consider before now!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Okay, my turn to say that I've dealt with this in a reply above! *g*

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