Kate Maclean's Redemption - part 5 - serious spoilers ahead

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

Well, I hope it's not too late to open up another page.....I did ask if anyone actually wanted part 5 and hadn't realised that a couple of people had responded with a 'yes' so here it is. Could you please cut and paste any relevant bits and pieces (if and where it's necessary) to this section so we have an idea of what is going on. Thank you very much and thanks for taking part. If I was unsure at the beginning I'm even more confused now as to why I found this story so addictive and seductive, but the journey is a lot of fun...

Comments

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

OK, just kicking off with a remark I found interesting, I think it was Jgraeme responding to Rosie:

I've known women like Nic. Not quite that far gone, but the same manipulative type who become obsessed with a relationship and let everything else in their life slide.

I know what you mean here about (some) women being more than happy to define their lives according to the man in their life (and I'm thinking more of school days here) - I feel that whatever the reason, whether it be social, cultural, nurturing, economic etc. it *does* happen, but interestingly (at least, to me) I'd never thought of it as a form of manipulation before - maybe an unconscious type of manipulation - but not something done knowingly, but I think you're probably right. Which led me on to my next thought and that is: are men guilty of this as much? In hetero or gay relationships? (I mean in sexual matters) And....(craftily) cos I was determined to get to him one day) this leads me on to the subject of Cowley, who hasn't been mentioned much in this discussion. Cowley the cunning old fox. The grand manipulator. Definitely a manipulator of the highest order, unashamedly so - ok, not a sexual manipulator, but he's still someone who knows how to get his own way. So, I don't really know what point I'm trying to make here, but I just wanted to say that I thought the subject of manipulation was an interesting one.........Oh and Doyle, given the portrayals of him in some stories, I think he managed to hold back pretty well in Redemption in that he resisted the temptation to use all his maniuplating/seductive talents on bodie, not until he was very sure that Bodie wasn't happy with nic, so credit to him here. Hmmmm...

[rosie55.livejournal.com]

I don't think that living one's life trying to fit an ideal of your partner is limited to women, though I do wonder whether women are often more conciliatory by nature and therefore more likely to try to be what they think their partner wants. I also suspect that it is something that a young person is more likely to do and I have a pet theory that the famous "seven year itch" is a point in a partnership where the gloss has worn off a relationship and the partners have reached a point where they have realised that they are not going to change their partner and they either have to accept them as they are , with whatever faults they have or look elsewhere! Though I fully accept I may be talking utter twaddle here!
Is manipulation in a relationship another form of control? If so, perhaps this may be why it may appear that women are more likely to try to control by manipulation than by bullying or intimidation. And, yes, you're right, NS, Cowley regularly appears to use manipulation of his operatives as a means of control - and he is clearly irritated at finding that he has been hoist with his own petard by Veronica!
I think I've now become so garbled, I've forgotten what I was trying to say!

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Is manipulation in a relationship another form of control?

Yes, I think it is and maybe it's something borne out of necessity - where there is an imbalance of power, where one person doesn't have much (explicit) or obvious control and they have to resort to a more subtle, mind-game, type of power wrestling. That wouldn't apply to Cowley though would it as he seems to possess the ultimate power in whatever he does......except, that's it! he couldn't control Veronica in his usual way so he has to resort to manipulating her and the same applies to Bodie who he *knew* wouldn't have complied under normal circumstances so he has to engineer/manipulate a situation which forces Bodie to comply. The old buzzard.......

[runriggers.livejournal.com]

I'd actually really like to read this story - but as far as I know, its only available in zine form.

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

Yes, I'm afraid it is, but it's worth every penny!

[miwahni.livejournal.com]

This discussion spurred me on to buy the zine, which arrived yesterday. Woo-hoo! Hopefully soon I'll know exactly what everyone is talking about, and why the story raised such an interesting discussion.

[rosie55.livejournal.com]

We shall wait eagerly to hear what you think, just hope we haven't completely spoilt it for you. But the discussion will make much more sense after you've read it!

[rosie55.livejournal.com]

Josh said, talking about villains "I found Nic believable and was willing to go along even with the escalation of putting a hit out on Doyle, which was a little extreme, but the rest had been set up so well, that I bought it."
I agree that Nic is a believable character and KM conveys her emotional state very clearly. It seemed to me that Nic putting out a contract on Doyle was entirely in keeping with the scale of her previous manipulation, her willingness to disrupt people's lives on a major scale to obtain her objectives, so I didn't have a problem accepting this.

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

It seemed to me that Nic putting out a contract on Doyle was entirely in keeping with the scale of her previous manipulation, her willingness to disrupt people's lives on a major scale to obtain her objectives, so I didn't have a problem accepting this.

I think the cleverness of this characterization is there is enough there that we can all recognize in real live people we've known, so that her escalating madness is not only believable -- it feels logical.

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

Was she an *interesting* character? Villains (like good vs. evil) are usually more fascinating than the goodies and I can't decide if she was or not....I suppose once her villainy was exposed I did sit up and think ah what have we got here?hmmmm...... and it's interesting, as someone mentioned a while back, that there aren't *that* many good villains in Pros fics.

I think she was a good villain in that she was a more prosaic and realistic villain. In a strange way her domestic machinations managed to do more damage to CI5 than all the enemy agents put together. I enjoyed the irony of that.

Generally the villains in fan fic are cipher terrorists or over the top madmen/madwomen (often ex-agents running amuck). But I could be wrong. Does anyone have favorite Pros fan fic baddies? Any really chilling villains out there in fan fic?

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

I suppose if Nic was as crazy as we think she was, then putting out a contract on Doyle doesn't seem that extreme (I'm trying to convince myself here) so I suppose her whole characterisation is pretty consistent.

Was she an *interesting* character? Villains (like good vs. evil) are usually more fascinating than the goodies and I can't decide if she was or not....I suppose once her villainy was exposed I did sit up and think ah what have we here? Hmmmm...... and it's interesting, as someone mentioned a while back, that there aren't *that* many good villains in Pros fics.

Sarah

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

Also I forget who had mentioned Sarah, and the fact that Doyle keeps a careful distance with her, and that seems very much in keeping with the reformed Doyle. Given the reason behind the split with Bodie, he probably views Sarah with the wariness he'd feel for one of those pop up targets on a training range -- I can imagine his alarm that Bodie might misread or misinterpret anything beyond cool and careful friendliness.

Not to mention the fact that she's a ... er ... cow.

Thoughts on Sara

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

She was a strange character in that I could never really see her, couldn't imagine her, she was always this faceless, hostile little bundle of fun.

And another thing......there were no grey areas in her likes and dislikes, no gradation (hope that's a word) in her feelings towards Bodie and Doyle: she seemed to despise Bodie and be besotted with Doyle..... but I wonder if this is just another example of Bodie's paranoia, his sinking esteem and even though she had the hots for Doyle (who could blame her?) maybe she didn't hate Bodie as much as he thought she did.....I mean, why *would* she dislike Bodie so much? Why would she show such open dislike for her boss?

Re: Thoughts on Sara

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Hate being message No.13 so,I'm making it 14..... blah blah blah blah.

Re: Thoughts on Sara

[rosie55.livejournal.com]

why *would* she dislike Bodie so much? Why would she show such open dislike for her boss?
I wondered this and also whether Bodie was misreading her but he gives instances more than once which make you think she was being fairly cold towards him. Perhaps, as Josh says, she is a 'cow', she certainly seems to be quite a snob and maybe she would look down on Bodie as not of her class. Though Doyle isn't either, of course and it doesn't stop her fancying him (and, as you say, don''t we all!).
There seem to be various instances where her attitude to Bodie is unhelpful - like when he asks her to find him some boxes (when he has resigned) and when she usually makes it clear that she does not expect to get a sandwich for Bodie at lunchtime. Not much of a PA, really!
Would the promoted Bodie have been difficult to work for? It seems as though he is very efficient but perhaps he is cold, as Cowley says. But there seems to be little respect or liking between Bodie and Sarah.
Are there any likeable women in this story?

Re: Thoughts on Sara

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

I mean, why *would* she dislike Bodie so much? Why would she show such open dislike for her boss?

One reason would be if she thought his position of power within the organization was weak or slipping -- she might especially begin to suspect this after Doyle shows up. Sometimes the rumor mill is uncanny in its deductive powers.

Or if she thought she could get away with her rudeness and arrogance because he seemed oblivious to her insolence.

[(Anonymous)]

I haven't read all the comments, just skimmed through some of them but I have feeling I may be the only nay sayer.

I think KM is, generally, a terrific writer and have enjoyed most, if not all, her work. But in this one I had problems with her characterization. Also, the story was unrelentingly heavy, melancholy. Even after all the angst and hurt and misconceptions, the ending left me cold. All that hurt with very brief resolution that still left me wondering if things were going to work out between them.

I felt Bodie was a real twat through most of it and I don't see him as a man who could be so SO manipulated by anyone, especially his annoying, space cadet wife. I couldn't understand his even liking this woman. I couldn't abide her. Nor did I like his secretary whose dislike of Bodie was never really explained to my satisfaction. I did like Doyle as he seemed to be the only one who was "PROS-like." Also, not enough Doyle and Bodie moments. When I came to the end I felt ... depressed. I'm a happy ever after reader or at least I have to know that they're getting there. In this one, I wasn't sure. I felt that perhaps staying together wouldn't be such a good idea for either of them. Bodie was, to me, out of character and none too bright. I hated to see him that way and he angered me. I didn't like him much and that bothered me. After finishing it I had to shake myself out of the doldrums.

Signed: MaDonna (by the way, will we see a new Sally Fell story in the near future!?

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

I don't want to repeat myself too much so I'll try and keep this short.

But in this one I had problems with her characterization.

Not sure if you specificially mean Bodie's characterisation or all of them? I think Bodie was depressed and a depressed Bodie is something I haven't come across before so it's hard to judge if it was an accurate characterisation or not, but given the Bodie that I *do* know I found the description of his growing paranoia, self-dislike and the belief that other people disliked him, well written and plausible. And I think his
depression manifested itself not only vis a vis his abandonment by Doyle, but also over his new position in Ci5 and the fact that he couldn't seem to fit in with his old colleages any more - didn't know *how* to fit in with them. I think depression can totally change someone's personality, but I don't think I thought of Bodie as a 'real twat' or someone who angered me. It struck me that everything in life was just too much for him - the thought of a baby, having to be intimate with his wife etc. he just didn't have the heart for any of it and I thought that the writer created the state of long-term depression that Bodie appeared to be in, very well.

Also, the story was unrelentingly heavy, melancholy.

I agree but I think I see that description in a more positive light e.g. for 'unrelenting' I'd see that as consistent - internally consistent - given Bodie's life and current situation. And yes, I agree, it was quite heavy but for me, not heavy in a bad way, but realistic, again, given Bodie's state of mind. That you found it melancholy is interesting, because I didn't sense that and I usually love melancholy stories. For me melancholy suggests a lack of hope and Redemption certainly suffered from a lack of hope for Bodie.

Even after all the angst and hurt and misconceptions, the ending left me cold. All that hurt with very brief resolution that still left me wondering if things were going to work out between them.

It didn't leave me cold but slightly uneasy and I think that sense of uneasiness was derived partly from one or two things associated with Bodie i.e. I think *he* was uneasy and still slightly distrustful of Doyle. But the fact that you weren't sure if they'd make it in the end suggests to me that this was a very 'grown up' story and ended very realistically.

Thanks for this!

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I've just been very reliably informed that there will be a new Sally Fell story out in the autumn, so that's something we can look forward to!

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

It doesn't look as though my replies are getting through to you but I hope you at least received the one re Sally Fell!

[(Anonymous)]

Just dropping in at this very late stage to say a big thank you to all of you for giving Redemption such a comprehensive and intelligent going over. I'm very honoured that you found it worth the time and the effort. Also, reading over the discussion, I have to say I learned new stuff about the story myself:)

Oh and one last thing - if it helps - as far as I'm concerned there is absolutely no doubt that they make it.:)

Thanks again.

Kate Maclean
xx

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

Wow! It's hard to reply to this without grovelling, so I'll just have to grovel.......I'm feeling starstruck and really pleased that you've followed the discussion and taken the time and trouble to say you've enjoyed it! Thank you so much. When I first discovered slash and then Pros around 2000 I never dreamt in a million years that one day we'd be discussing a wonderful story such as Redemption with the author popping in *as well*! I'm so glad you've seen how much people enjoyed your story (I've never seen a response quite like this one) and I hope it spurs you on to write more stories in one of the best fandoms there is. So there. I'm biased and I don't care who knows it (and I'm ever so slightly tempted to read Yellow Brick Road for the 4th time and start a discussion on *that* one so watch this space.........).

Thanks again Kate, for letting us know you enjoyed the discussion.

[(Anonymous)]

Hey - you do say nice things! And why are *you* grovelling? I thought *I* was grovelling....
Again, many thanks for taking the time to discuss the story at all NS, never mind in such depth. And if YBR does come up for dissection at some point, I may indeed find the courage to watch from behind the sofa.


KM xx