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Hello - it's Friday, so amongst other fab things, it's the start of this week's Reading Room discussion! (Sorry I'm a bit late, I was so sure that a meeting would be over by 8pm, and I'm only just back...) Anyway!
Our first story is The Return, by Ellis Ward.
The Return
by Ellis Ward
We start off with Doyle, and fairly quickly find out that something is wrong. In fact worse than that - Bodie is dead. He had vanished one day when they were on separate assignments, and after he'd spent six weeks looking for some clue as to what had happened, Cowley had called him into his office and told him that a body had been found, unidentifiable except for Bodie's belongings found on it. Doyle had kept working to try and find out what had happened, until finally he collapsed from exhaustion. With no hope, Doyle resigned, took a job with a construction company, and tried to carry on, just existing.
And then Cowley turned up at his flat, telling him that there was news. Bodie wasn't dead, it hadn't been his body - and in fact he's downstairs, wanting to see Doyle, and it all gets interesting. Bodie doesn't know who took him, but he knows - they all do - that since he was allowed to escape it was almost certainly for a reason, probably to do with the way he's determined that he needs to see Doyle.
Cowley agrees to leave Bodie in Doyle's custody if Doyle agrees to re-join CI5, which of course he does. Bodie promptly knocks Doyle over the head next morning, and kidnaps him - though Doyle goes along with it to the extent of stealing the motorbike and getting them safely to Bodie's hideaway, somewhere far away. They spend a few days together, decompressing - and realising that being apart has sent their relationship to new levels.
Reluctantly, Bodie agrees to go back to Cowley for help, because they still don't know what happened to him - and even to succumb to Kate Ross's ministrations. Sure enough, Ross is able to get to the bottom of it all, and Cowley is able to find out who took Bodie in order to get at Doyle - John Coogan, out for revenge on the man who killed his brother. And his revenge? To first make Doyle believe that Bodie is dead, and then to have him return and fall in love with Doyle, all ready to cause a scandal that will break CI5 as an extra bonus.
But Coogan's scheme missed one very important detail - the lads were already in love, they just hadn't realised it yet.
So - that's my relatively brief synopsis! What did anyone think? Was it believable? Were the lads our lads? Is that the way you expected the story to go, or were you waiting for something else to happen? Did the ending make sense? Cowley's plot (not a spoiler, Cowley always has a plot, surely *g*)? What was your favourite bit? The bit you didn't get at all? Let's chat! *g*
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Date: 2019-09-13 08:54 pm (UTC)It's not my favourite, I've got to say. The lads feel off to me, and my impression is the story is in too much of a hurry - it's good and intriguing and full of potential... Ack! I need to read it all, I know! But I wanted to chuck something into the ring before the weekend has it's wicked way with me!
Thank you for getting us going again. Yay!
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Date: 2019-09-13 09:23 pm (UTC)But ooh - the lads are off? I must admit that I thought they were quite good, but maybe I'm missing something - where do you see them as off?
I don't want to spoiler it for you, so that's all I'm going to ask for now... *g*
And yeay! Thank you for being the first one here! *g*
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Date: 2019-09-13 09:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-09-13 10:28 pm (UTC)I love Bodie being so sure of Doyle - and I love the slight heartbreak that it was chemically/mentally planted in some way, and not real, but then that it's brought back to being true again. *g*
Slight spoiler but very early on
Date: 2019-09-13 09:46 pm (UTC)And thank you once again for doing this.
RE: Slight spoiler but very early on
Date: 2019-09-13 10:34 pm (UTC)But yes! I love the start of this story too - though I have to blink hard to turn broiling pan into grill pan. I've got a version somewhere where I fixed that myself, but it's not the one I printed out... It's such a gorgeous image though - Doyle trying to carry on with mundane things when his world has fallen apart, and we're just waiting for the penny to drop, and to find out how... And yeah, the "canyon" and the "sidewalk" are more Brooklyn somehow, but it's still a fabulous thing to imagine...
I had to look up Edward Hopper, and then I remembered that he was the guy who did Nighthawks, and I found Approaching a City, and somehow that didn't have a sense of place to it, it had a sense of approaching a city, and it could have been Manchester or London or anywhere from the feeling of it, and yes...
And thank you for coming to chat! *g*
RE: Slight spoiler but very early on
Date: 2019-09-14 03:01 am (UTC)I love the beginning - especially through to their reaching the hideaway. There is something so perfectly transgressive but exactly right about how they are together. The perfect fit, the attraction, the trust. Knock me over the head, it's okay, I know it's because you love me, and I'll save you too! It works for me, no matter how unlikely it might seem.
There are a number of exquisite smiles described in this one... I never stop collecting them:
Then he reached out, careful not to disturb the precise angle of his fishing rod, and drew a rough palm along Doyle's cheek. He smiled, unleashing all the breathtaking allure of a face no human male should ever have been gifted with.
Or like in this passage, which encapsulates a LOT of what I love in B&D...
Jesus, Bodie," Doyle began, his voice breaking huskily. Before he could continue, a smile of incredible sweetness erased the ravages of whatever hell Bodie had endured during the previous three months and he took a step that closed the distance between them. His bowed head came to rest on Doyle's shoulder, and his arms went lightly around Ray's waist. Suddenly choked, Doyle folded the other man against him, squeezing until they were both gasping for air. "You stupid bastard," Doyle wept, "don't you know better than to go anywhere without me to back you up?"
It's glorious. It's some of the later bits that I end up tripping on, not necessarily badly, but just because of how things have changed. The barriers that stood strong then seem silly now, or something. What was taboo and veiled and was then exposed we now see so much of that it doesn't work the same way and seems immature somehow. It isn't the author, or the story, I think, it's just the changing times!
How to read a story about a time when to be gay for your partner was as bad as death, written when it was still pretty taboo, but was the whole point, somehow, too, now when being gay is so different? B&D explaining it to Cowley, or the Amanda incident, or "turd burglars" - I find myself shielding my eyes...
Then there's bits like D describing the clothes he'd pick out for B, "Lots of open-necked shirts and tight--very tight--black trousers. A silver chain, to lie just here-" and parts that are so incredible, like:
Bodie was gazing at him with all the love that he had ever craved in his life and, impossibly, he did not know what to do. Raggedly, he whispered, "Bodie...?"
Then he saw the love deepen, black pupils dilating until Doyle thought he must tumble into them and be taken in whole. He was aware of steel-tense arms gathering him nearer, of the dizzying warmth of Bodie's breath coursing over his lips, and of Bodie, helplessly moaning, "Bloody hell, Ray," a fraction of an instant before their mouths collided with hungry intent.
Stupefied, and a little uneasy, Doyle echoed, "Not bad?"
Sated azure eyes smiled indulgently upon him. "Yeah--for falling into the heart of the sun."
Be still my romantic heart! Although part of me wants to be safe and critique for "bodice-ripping" there is no doubt that EW's writing thrills me in a very satisfying way.
It's been a long time since I discussed a story here, so be gentle with me if I step wrong, please? I promise you that I'm trying to limit the number of exclamation points I use, and how much gushing I do... 😍
RE: Slight spoiler but very early on
Date: 2019-09-14 05:15 am (UTC)Seems to me as if you like the story a bit! *g*
Yeah! I love the Reading Room! :-)
...and I love this story as well!
RE: Slight spoiler but very early on
Date: 2019-09-14 06:14 pm (UTC)Thank you! And melancholy is the very word I was searching for... the introduction is steeped in it and for some reason I love it.
What was taboo and veiled and was then exposed we now see so much of that it doesn't work the same way and seems immature somehow. It isn't the author, or the story, I think, it's just the changing times!
I agree.
How to read a story about a time when to be gay for your partner was as bad as death, written when it was still pretty taboo, but was the whole point, somehow, too, now when being gay is so different? B&D explaining it to Cowley, or the Amanda incident, or "turd burglars" - I find myself shielding my eyes...
Yup, I do agree, though I'm not sure being gay was seen as that much of a sin in the early 80s? But perhaps my view is coloured by being brought up in London as opposed to some other parts of the world? And it was definitely very different in institutions such as the armed forces and probably employers like ci5.
It's been a long time since I discussed a story here, so be gentle with me if I step wrong, please? I promise you that I'm trying to limit the number of exclamation points I use, and how much gushing I do... 😍
Not gushing at all. There's a big difference between speaking from the heart (which is what you do and very welcome) and gushing. It's *good* to speak from the heart and we need more of it!
RE: Slight spoiler but very early on
Date: 2019-09-15 04:24 pm (UTC)S2K wrote: though I'm not sure being gay was seen as that much of a sin in the early 80s? But perhaps my view is coloured by being brought up in London as opposed to some other parts of the world? And it was definitely very different in institutions such as the armed forces and probably employers like ci5.
You're right, I agree. And we've seen B & D deal directly with homophobia. We've seen them being very close physically in a lot of situations, and taking it for granted, at least in my opinion! So all of the little "digs" that happen after Bodie lays down next to Doyle on the bed seem a bit too much (didn't D already note the two pillows, "planning on company?") I know it's in service of trying to ease through discomfort or tension, and they resolve very quickly, but in my reading, they are far past that, what with B having been layed out on D's back on the bike, etc! All of that long-windedness to say that the bit that I couldn't really see was the part about Doyle's tea-stained trousers. Even Cowley gets involved in wondering about the pants. It's such an old device, an odd device for someone like Bodie. "Took advantage of you..."?! "grope"? It just struck me in the wrong way.
It occurred to me that it might be something that the author meant to highlight as part of the category of Bode "resisting the dire brain washing and not taking advantage of his partner"? Ahh. I'm overthinking!
I guess it boils down to - when there are parts like this,
But the answer was obvious--and unthinkable--the core of a socially ingrained fear that few heterosexual men could contemplate without extreme discomfort. True to form, Doyle withdrew as well. They had never, either one of them, been like that. And surely, that wasn't something that could change overnight?
then why also add in taking-off-tea-stained-trousers concern? (And, I have to add, I really really do not want to offend or upset anyone! I really really have a debt of unending gratitude to authors, that truly will not end, no matter any bits and bobs I might pick apart!)
Re: Slight spoiler but very early on
Date: 2019-09-15 07:46 pm (UTC)Just trying to think of their reactions in canon to anything bordering on gay .. I think they're slightly amused/bemused/wary and act as if they're a bit removed from 'that kind of thing' - i.e. it's not them, it can't apply to them, and I'm thinking of scenes such as the one with the male hairdresser in Fugitive, the 'do you think they're sleeping in the same bed?' scene in Everest and laughing themselves stupid in the car in Annie when Doyle asks Bodie if he thinks Cowley's attractive (or something like that). I suppose typical reactions of hetero men then and now - taking it for granted but also making sure that each other knows they're *not* gay. And I think it's more interesting if they're not, because today admittedly, it's nothing special and more challenging to a writer to work out the conundrum of two supposedly straight men falling for each other. (I think I've argued myself up my own trouser leg.)
P.S. Sorry, I forgot the obvious example in In The Public Interest where, I think, they behaved very properly(!)
RE: Slight spoiler but very early on
Date: 2019-09-14 11:04 pm (UTC)I know what you mean about the ending, when they're back with Cowley and Ross, feeling so very different - it's not them any more, not their time, they're back under the control of the world and we have to do deal with all that muck rather than just B/D... I'm always trying to work out how much of what people wrote back then was part of their own working-things-out, especially because so much more was coming to light for people then, and now it's mostly here in the light (although still not for everyone, from everywhere, so authors are still different and liable to be working it out, somehow... Or letting other people know that things are okay, that they can loosen up... or something... Or maybe not, maybe it's just storytelling!
There were bits that I cringed at too, but more because I've read them so often now that they're done, and I have to remind myself that they weren't when this story was written... or less so. *g*
And I'm probably not making much sense now, because I need to go to bed! So much for my Saturday - it vanished... somewhere... Better thinking in the morning, I hope!
RE: Slight spoiler but very early on
Date: 2019-09-15 04:31 pm (UTC)True, true. Not to be too squicky and embarrassing, but I remember very clearly when I had no idea of what happened in gay relationships, or sex, or any sex! Now, there's virtually no mystery left to work out, is there...
RE: Slight spoiler but very early on
Date: 2019-09-15 12:02 pm (UTC)This! I love the beginning too! And it's not that it goes wrong when they're back at CI5 with Cowley, but... it's not as wonderful any more.
I'm never convinced when the lads announce to Cowley that they're gay/in love etc., although some authors convince me that they want to ensure they're not blackmailable. But as
...and now I've realised that I did actually reply to you last night - how did I manage that, then, thinking I hadn't?!
RE: Slight spoiler but very early on
Date: 2019-09-15 04:38 pm (UTC)RE: Slight spoiler but very early on
Date: 2019-09-15 05:28 pm (UTC)What did you think about the use of the Kama Sutra?
It didn't make that big of an impression on me, but I thought it was a bit odd. AS IF they would need ideas or tips about new things to try!? Goodness, no! I was thinking that maybe it was an in-joke of the author's with her friends, or something...
Oh well. I probably shouldn't speak until I've rewatched the whole series again - it has been a number of years - because maybe it is canon or something... like the dancing girls picture.
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Date: 2019-09-14 10:44 am (UTC)It was a re-read and I remembered a lot, unfortunately not always the right storyline - mixed it up with another work *sigh*
So, it's a brilliant work and worth the lack of sleep to get it finished this morning.
Thank you for the reading room, I am looking forward to other comments and something to think about :-)
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Date: 2019-09-14 06:22 pm (UTC)I'm never happy when I read that in any Bodie and Doyle story (unless it's said with humour). I just can't see two tough guys like them speaking in such terms and I don't think I even want them to! Not even in the prehistoric times of the eighties. I find it hard when they start placing conditions on each other, too, like 'you've got to love me otherwise we can't continue' having sex - I just can't see them actually articulating these things! Maybe they'd think it but not say it.
looking forward to other comments and something to think about :-)
So am I! It gets hard if it's left to a couple of people and so the more people who take part the better.
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Date: 2019-09-15 09:29 am (UTC)Maybe this story doesn't provide enough stuff to discuss. I am sure we will get more points to agree and disagree in another story.
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Date: 2019-09-15 12:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-09-15 11:49 am (UTC)Anyway - I wanted to say, yes, that's exactly how I feel about it too! I just can't imagine the lads wanting to get married, let alone talking about it in great depth. And it always makes me grimace in fics when they decide that they have to tell Cowley about it as well - I just don't think they would. Much as they respect and admire him, he's their boss. I can just about go with the idea that they tell him because they think that will stop them being blackmailable, but even so...
And as for being married, I don't see either of them as that conventional, either, for all Doyle's apparently set to marry Ann Holly in Involvement. Actually I don't think he is though - it's Bodie who puts the thought in his head, and he snaps back Well maybe I'll do that! out of crossness rather than anything else, because Bodie's been pushing him about something... it's Bodie who's worried about Doyle getting married, it wasn't Doyle in the first place... Oh, here it is:
Doyle loses control with Tony.
DOYLE: [yelling] The Christmas man! Who is he?
Bodie pulls Doyle off Tony.
BODIE: All right, mate! Eh! [takes charge of Tony] He doesn't know. Let's give him to Cowley.
Scene 24: Bodie and Doyle driving in the car.
BODIE: What's got into you, Doyle? Normally have to pull me off. I mean, is it this bird or something? It's not just Benny, is it? She not coming across?
DOYLE: Knock it off.
BODIE: Or maybe she is. Next thing you know, you'll be telling me you're going to marry her.
DOYLE: Yeah, well, I might just do that.
To me that's Doyle being pushed until he says something that he thinks will get Bodie off his back, not him being so in love (after less than a week!) that he's decided he wants to marry her.
And yes, it's the articulation of all this! I mean - neither of them talk about their feelings in the eps, which is pretty much how things were then. I mean, guys did talk about feelings if you got them settled in at the right time and place, but it wasn't easy to work out when that was. Look at the way Bodie tells Doyle about the girl he loved in Africa, and how Doyle doesn't tell Bodie how he feels about Ann in that many words. They show each other instead, they talk around it so that the other understands, but they don't articulate it in lots of explain-y words...
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Date: 2019-09-15 12:32 pm (UTC)They show each other instead, they talk around it so that the other understands, but they don't articulate it in lots of explain-y words...
Boringly (for you), I've got to agree with someone who agrees with me and add that although I've not got a wide experience of blokes, none of the few I have encountered would come out with stuff like that. Mind you.... having said that, I was very much around, alive and kicking in the 80s and I never knew any men who dressed like Bodie either, in the episode when he encounters Krivas. Never seen anyone with those long shirt collars etc. So my point is, what *is* my point? Maybe I've led a very sheltered life and what do *I* know? Maybe.. (On the other hand Doyle usually looks pretty contemporary in the way he dresses.)
And I agree with you re Bodie pushing Doyle into saying he might marry Ann, Bodie's terrified that he will and in that terror something makes him say it, almost as if the more he says and thinks it, the less likely the most awful thing in the world will happen. That kind of weird reverse psychology we all sometimes deploy, maybe?
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Date: 2019-09-15 04:50 pm (UTC)To nitpick, I'm sure there are stories that are set up where this would be believable! Just not so much here.
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Date: 2019-09-14 10:54 pm (UTC)Oh yes - that didn't work for me either, and it never does. I can't imagine them wanting to get married or anything like that really - they seem perfectly happy with their casual lives in the eps.. well, I suppose Doyle thinks about marrying Ann Holly, but I don't think he does really, he's just goaded to say so by Bodie...
I liked the way it flipped over, so Coogan's plot didn't work because actually they didn't see anything wrong with the idea of being in love with each other, though I did think it wrapped up a bit quickly after that. It was such a lovely start, taking its time, and then whooosh! through the finish!
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Date: 2019-09-15 09:52 am (UTC)That's the amazing thing of this story, indeed. What a brilliant idea from the author.
and then whooosh! through the finish!
I don't miss anything, quite the opposite, I love how casual and without drama the story continues. Everything is just ok :-)
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Date: 2019-09-15 11:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-09-15 05:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-09-14 05:41 pm (UTC)I think, it's mostly the trust that you feel no matter what happens between them.
It's romantic - ok maybe 'fluffy'. But who cares? ...yes, there are really heartbreaking moments! *g*
But at the same moment we have the tough men we know!
For example:
"Doyle had no doubts that Bodie could manipulate the older man to his way of thinking, given the proper set of circumstances."
It's surprising and never boring, and the two of them together in a cabin is always a pleasure! :-)
For me it's the perfect 'feelgood' story! *purrs*
Thank you for this rec! And thank you that the Reading Room is back!!!!
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Date: 2019-09-14 10:57 pm (UTC)Though I'm not convinced that Bodie could manipulate Cowley to do anything - only that Cowley would probably mind him trying less than he'd mind Doyle trying, somehow!
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Date: 2019-09-15 12:50 am (UTC)I think, though, that the force of grief driving Doyle's reactions at the beginning is partly what makes the beginning so strong.
I feel like it creates a base for how right and easy the transition to a sexual relationship is. Having believed Bodie to be dead, Doyle of course wants to hold him closer than ever. It's his version of Bodie's paranoid desire to steal Doyle away and hide him from harm.
When I think of the threats raised, from subliminal murderous rage to a possibility that Cowley might betray them, just ending up lovers seems fluffy even if it's programmed. Great happy ending!
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Date: 2019-09-15 11:57 am (UTC)And yes - I agree that it's Doyle's grief at the start which drives the story so strongly. It's what keeps us going, because as readers we know that there must be hope - we're given all the clues, the biggest of which is, of course, that Bodie's apparent body wasn't recognisable as him, and so we're sort of looking forward to Doyle's reaction when the lads rediscover each other - and it's a pretty satisfying one. Even more so, I'd say, because they're not straight into great pronouncements of undying love and so on, instead they show each other the effect it's had on them. Bodie bashes Doyle over the dead and drags him off to keep him safe, and Doyle doesn't mind that a bit, he conspires to be alone with Bodie for as long as it takes before doing the practical thing...
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Date: 2019-09-15 05:04 pm (UTC)Perfectly said! Exactly. I really like the way you cut through the wrappings and get to the heart the matter. I might arrive at similar destination, but I'll take the donkey-cart route instead of the straight line!
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Date: 2019-09-15 10:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-09-15 05:09 pm (UTC)But, I wanted to bring up this moment between Doyle and Cowley, which I thought was brilliant and a perfect humorous touch...
"But that is all you got out of Bodie, isn't it--all that Coogan tried to plant? There's nothing else lurking in his subconscious--like, maybe, an intense infatuation for you?"
A tiny smile flickered across the older man's lips
Okay, bittersweet for some, but still, a wonderful moment of Doyle at his Doyle-i-est... :)
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Date: 2019-09-23 12:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-09-15 05:22 pm (UTC)Some of my favorite moments out of it are:
Doyle kept himself motionless by main force. He had rarely heard that defenseless note in Bodie's voice and it sickened him to hear it now, goaded out of him by his own words. He said quietly, "Push you. Find your trigger before it finds me."
and
The silence of the clearing underscored the wire-taut emotions between them. Finally, a small, reluctant smile worked its way across Doyle's full lips and he lowered his eyes. Slowly they came open again, and he regarded Bodie from beneath his lashes. "Yeah. I don't know why, but I think you're right."
We can literally see their faces and bodies, feel the tension, the solemnity of this moment, of what must be done before they can proceed together. Just many many thanks to the author for writing such a beautiful and compelling scene.
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Date: 2019-09-16 11:33 am (UTC)I can only agree and that's a great line!
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Date: 2019-09-18 02:05 am (UTC)This story has been an important point of reference to me in the past during my first approach at pros fics, as much as Ellis Ward other works. I have a great respect for her writing even if my tastes are for a less formal and detached style (at least in my very personal opinion); I'm sure many readers won't agree with the "detached and formal" part, but that's the reason for me why nowadays I'm able to read repeatedly the first part of "The Return" without really feeling the deepest angst for the death, even if only temporary, of a main character. It's beautifully written, as always where EW stories are concerned, but I can "see" the pain for the loss without really "feeling" it. But, again, that's just me and I can totally see why for other readers the more classical writing works just fine.
You may not remember but when we were discussing a previous fic, "The Blue Figurine", the writing style came out again as a main issue and I pointed out that I loved the strong author's style there, so it's not entirely a matter of how old the story or the author age is.
The characterization is mostly good regarding their partnership and friendship. What really represents the main issue in Ellis Ward stories to me to be honest is the romantic and sexual relationship between the characters. Some of you have already commented on that, too. To me is not realistic the rush from sudden awareness of Doyle's attraction to Bodie to the "marry me", "only you" "forever" and such, in a matter of hours...That just does not do much for me and my personal view of romance, even an hetero one. Where is the pathos, the troubled thoughts for the discovery and for the change in their relationship, considering who they are and the situation they are in?
The funny thing is that, since I read in a few other fandoms both older and younger than this, I think the point is the personal mind setting of the Authors and their concept of romance, despite the age of the writer or the age of the story itself. We can sometime find a different approach, an evolution, in stories of the same author written decades apart for that matter.
The only other main issue is that despite being pleased that they're not kicked out of the agency, I don't think the department would have backed them up if their relationship would have been discovered by the media. Cowley would make clear that they would be left on their own in that case to me. But I don't really know the UK's views and laws at that time in this matter, so I may be wrong here.
But I still think that EW's original and intriguing plots are her strength. They are almost never boring even when it's not my personal favourite choice.
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Date: 2019-09-19 09:33 pm (UTC)Such a good point, I agree. Sometimes I wonder if I'm in the minority in fandom in preferring what I call the more 'realistic' (gritty) stories and more realistic aspects of their relationship. I just don't 'get' or see or want to see what I call 'slushy', lovey-dovey type of romance which a lot of writers seem to like writing, maybe more so in the earliers days of Pros slash?. In my mind, when Bodie and Doyle are romantic, it's their own very special brand of romance, largely implied, often inspired by humour.
We can sometime find a different approach, an evolution, in stories of the same author written decades apart for that matter.
I'm sure that's the case and trying to analyse a few writers would be fascinating! The only writer I can think of whose writing does seem to evolve (and maybe it's because I know her stories better than others) is Sebastian. I think the reader's taste evolves, too,
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Date: 2019-09-21 05:15 pm (UTC)I'd like to think we're not a minority myself. In my fandoms I love the daily aspect of the characters lives in addition to their romantic involvement. That's why I like long case fics where we can see how they deal with their romance while doing such a gritty job in a realistic way. I'm always looking for authors/artists with a solid style and a not "lovey-dovey type of romance" as you pointed out.
Unfortunately in "The Return" Ellis Ward's rendition of the romantic/sexual aspect it's not realistic enough to me and too much rushed.
And even in earlier times of fictions we can find authors that didn't like to write the characters in a "girlish way", Sebastian, as you say, being one of them.
And right now in the Second day of the Reading Room it's being discussed one of my favourite writers, Rebelcat, that fortunately lacks in the "slushy" aspect! :-)
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Date: 2019-09-22 11:26 pm (UTC)Definitely not! I can't read slushy lovey-dovey stuff either (and I really hope I don't write it, but I guess we all draw our lines in different places - someone once told me they thought my writing was too "girly", which is fair enough - though I did find the comment offensive in that being "girly"/female was being defined by the commenter as of lesser worth than "masculine" things, but that's a different debate...) I can be reading along quite happily, and then suddenly the lads are holding hands in a slushy kind of way, and it all goes wrong...
(And sorry for the late comment, having been lapped by this week's reading room...)
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Date: 2019-09-23 11:37 am (UTC)That's ridiculous and couldn't be further from (I was going to say 'the truth' but in this context, or any context come to think of it, there is no truth but you know what I mean and I know it's all very subjective but...) how *I* see your writing (at least) and how I'm sure most other people do, In fact that's precisely one of the major reasons why I love how you write (and have told you before!) because it's them, tough lads, lads who would be embarrassed by anything verging on 'girly' and would die before they're perceived as being girly. There are a handful of writers who get it just right and you're one of them. I have spoken. Amen.
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Date: 2019-09-23 11:48 am (UTC)I've tried to read original m/m romance books over the years too, but with a few very honourable exceptions, I also tend to find them too slushy - including some by ex-Pros writers. And yet these m/m writers are very popular, and get good reviews (I'm sooo careful now, because I've found so many reviews to be misleading like that - they might rave about an author, but the author still doesn't work for me...)
Which is all just part of the usual thing - we all have different tastes, I guess!
(PS - look at me, trying to reply to comments in a more timely way...!)
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Date: 2019-09-23 12:07 pm (UTC)I forgot to say earlier that if this person found *your* stories girly I wonder which stories she'd consider were *not* girly? I can't think of any stories more true to Bodie and Doyle (and therefore not girly) than yours.
I know you're busy so please don't feel under any pressure to reply. Over and out.
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Date: 2019-09-22 11:20 pm (UTC)the more classical writing works just fine
I've been trying to think how The Return might be in a classical style of some kind, in a way that means readers don't feel what's going on as much, compared to other stories. I'm one of the people who definitely felt this story - though more at the start, and much less when they'd actually slept together, because I definitely agree that the sudden change was too much, and too soppy. I don't always need troubled thoughts from them - sometimes its quite refreshing if they've always known they liked other blokes, and can just sort of relax into each other (*g*) but I don't think it would be the kind of easy that we got in this story. As you say, that's about the author's own concept of romance and how things work - and it's always interesting to read how different we all are about it. *g*
I don't think the department would have backed them up if their relationship would have been discovered by the media
I think it depends a bit when the story was supposed to be set, but also whether CI5 counts as following military-style rules (where it was illegal to be gay until 1999, even when it wasn't for civilians..) Cowley's famous discretion could be argued to count for alot - but then I remember when Section 28 of the Local Government Act was enforced by Margaret Thatcher's government, in 1988, banning local authorities from "promoting" homosexuality - which could in practice be as simple as answering a kid's question to say "yes, some people were gay".
And I must confess I went and checked dates - it wasn't until 1990 that there was a Lesbian and Gay Police Association in the UK, quite a while after our lads were working, so that's probably indicative... But then we had Cowley working to protect the Gay Youth Organisation in ItPI in 1978, so I'd like to think he was a bit further ahead of the crowd and would the lads up as far as he could...
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Date: 2019-09-23 12:52 am (UTC)It's difficult sometimes to explain what I mean for classical. I was referring more to the writing style, a little formal, beautifully exposed, beautiful words an so on...there are nice visual situations, and I understand why many readers are in love with this style. I've been in love with this story for years, I still love the original plot, that's almost "humorous" if you think about it, no one is to die here, just be embarassed and ruined professionally...I feel Doyle's pain for the entire first part and Bodie's distress.
But we are now discussing Rebelcat story, so maybe with a practical example you may see better what I mean about the writing, less old-fashioned perhaps? but not in a denigrative way. There's nothing wrong to be old-fashioned. It's just a matter of taste, I suppose. The same for movies, art, or songs...
It's more the hurried "Falling for real" that's always been too sugary for me. And like you say, I don't need unnecessary angst around "the realization" either, but a bit of introspection...and the "marry me" after two hours' encounter just doesn't work for me, even in a hetero relationship. They would be in character for the whole story if it weren't for this aspect. To be fair in my criticism I reread one of her a shorter stories, "Under Surveillance", similar falling in bed together and committed two hour later with Bodie already in love for sometime and Doyle struck by lightning but at least here I read a "humorous" setting.
My favourite part is the kidnapping and the sense of distrust because of the brainwashing.
"But then we had Cowley working to protect the Gay Youth Organisation in ItPI in 1978, so I'd like to think he was a bit further ahead of the crowd and would the lads up as far as he could... "
I agree, Cowley may be a bit harsh at times as required by his leading position, but I don't see him as much as a conservative in such matters. My doubts were only about the Authorities, even Cowley has to respond to them.
The scenario posed by Ellis Ward may be possible, just a bit too rosy enunciated.
"...but then I remember when Section 28 of the Local Government Act was enforced by Margaret Thatcher's government, in 1988, banning local authorities from "promoting" homosexuality - which could in practice be as simple as answering a kid's question to say "yes, some people were gay". "
:-) I quite remember the times...The Lady was a resourceful one, no doubt there. I guess we all have ours crosses to bear. Here we had and still have such colourful ones (some are very very hard to eradicate from politics)
"and I really hope I don't write it, but I guess we all draw our lines in different places - someone once told me they thought my writing was too "girly", which is fair enough - though I did find the comment offensive in that being "girly"/female was being defined by the commenter as of lesser worth than "masculine" things, but that's a different debate..."
Oh, no! You definetely don't write it! But now I will have to reread a lot of your stories for a while and I'll let you know if you're been "girlish" somewhere! :-)
...and I surely don't mean the "girly"/female aspect as your rude commenter probably did. But you're right this require a debate on itself. In fact I don't understand this much adversion for female characters in m/m fictions written by women...jealousy, perhaps?
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Date: 2019-09-23 12:01 pm (UTC)a little formal, beautifully exposed, beautiful words an so on...there are nice visual situations
See, except for "a little formal", I'd say that describes Rebelcat's Widening Gyre very well - but you're saying it's more EW... so maybe it's the "formal" bit that's the difference...? Trying to work out what you might mean by "formal" in this context... and I know I'm asking hard questions, and you've already said it's hard to define - I guess that's why I'm asking more questions though, because it's interesting... *g* I'm trying to work out what's "old-fashioned" about EW's writing, that perhaps we don't see as much now in "modern" writing...
The Lady was a resourceful one, no doubt there
Hmmn, I'm afraid I have other terms than "resourceful"... and other names, come to that... "Colourful" is a very kind word to use for the times we're living in, and the rulers we're currently living under, too. So many of them would never have had a slash B/D in CI5 to start with...
I don't think the person who said she felt my writing was "girly" was being rude, she was just explaining why she didn't usually read it, which I appreciated to be honest!
But you're right this require a debate on itself. In fact I don't understand this much adversion for female characters in m/m fictions written by women...jealousy, perhaps?
Oh, I know! There've been some people who were absolutely hateful towards characters like Ann Holly and Geraldine Mather, and it makes no sense to me. Hate what people do, but not who they are deep down, unless you can prove that the two are connected... If Ann Holly had dropped Doyle because she'd just been using him, or was a nasty spiteful woman just having fun with his emotions, then I could see why people might hate her, but she was never that... But as you say, that's another conversation! (And you know, if you'd care to post it to or somewhere, it might be interesting to see what people say! *g*)
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Date: 2019-09-25 10:19 am (UTC)You're not asking hard questions and I'm really enjoying the discussion about the "writing style", but I've a feeling that we are running in circles while trying to say similar things after all, maybe we're just stuck on "terms" and that's my fault, too... I don't think I managed to explain the "classical" and "formal" part very well and I'm criticizing a foreign language, after all, so bear with me :-). See? for example I just complicated it with mentioning Rebelcat style. I'll think of something else and maybe one of these days we'll come to a better understanding.
In the end, I think we have more or less similar tastes where fanfiction are concerned, and we have basically agreed about what we like and don't like about "The Return" in particular.
That's why I like the Reading Room...so many fans who enjoy reading and splitting hairs even if we're giving ourselves an headache in the process :-)
"Hmmn, I'm afraid I have other terms than "resourceful"... and other names, come to that... "Colourful" is a very kind word to use for the times we're living in, and the rulers we're currently living under, too."
Ah! :-) That's just me trying to be "polite" and "politically correct" for once, you really wouldn't want to hear me ranting.
"And you know, if you'd care to post it to or somewhere, it might be interesting to see what people say! *g*"
Confess, you just want to throw me to the wolves, just imagine me asking something like that...brrr