Kate Maclean's Redemption discussion - part 2 - major spoilers ahead

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

I *know* as soon as I start this second page that the comments will stop, but I thought I'd better try because the concertina effect of posts squeezing up is so uninviting. (I hope this is OK with the moderators - not sure on the etiquette, etc.)...... Right, where were we?

For referring back to part one: http://community.livejournal.com/ci5hq/35323.html

Comments

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

I'm kinda doing the visual equivalent of sticking my fingers in my ear and "La-la-la-ing!" very loud right now, becasue I haven't got mine yet. But I am *really* looking forward to reading through this discussion when I do - so keep going, people!

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm so sorry! I thought you'd bought it a while back? I was hoping you'd come and tell us what you thought, so I'm really sorry. But there are quite a few people who intend buying it so I'm sure the discussion will continue!!*And* I'm definitely going to read it again as I always pick up much more second time round.

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

No apoolgies necessary, m'dear. Tis great to know I can come and read all this when I've read the story. I love, love, love all the passion and enthusiasm for the fic in Pros. Warms me heart to be here.*g*

[rosie55.livejournal.com]

Whoops, we did try to flag it up very clearly with "Spoiler warnings" but it is such a well constructed story that it's impossible to debate some issues without giving away quite a lot!
It will all mean so much more to you when you've read it! This discussion could run for a long time,methinks!!

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

No problem, Rosie. Y'all did the spoiler warnings beautifully.*g* It'll be be lovely to read all the interesting comments later. Part of my love for this fandom is how wonderfully passionate folk get about the fic, and yup, a long time is more than possible with a Kate Maclean novel!

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

rosie55 wrote:

Emotional collusion - did you see C & D as deciding B's future as though he was a child? How interesting! I didn't perceive that.

Well, I think there are some grounds for arguing that, things like: they effectively presented him with a fait accompli as you might a child - don't give him too many choices or he won't be able to cope;even after the initial proposal was put to him they still kept him out of their opinions and discussions, still - metaphorically - continuing to talk over his head or behind his back - for his own good; and both, Cowley in particular, stressed that he was running on automatic pilot, almost emotionally redundant, stunted or emotionally immature as a child might be. Mind you, if the reader is to believe Cowley's view of Bodie, I'm not sure how Bodie, in his depressed state, manages to lead quite such a happy life with Veronica. Is it possible to be partially depresssed?

You referred to "the positioning of Doyle when Bodie encounters Doyle for the first time: Doyle is behind Bodie and so has the advantage of surprise ....... Bodie feels surrounded, wrong-footed, outflanked and outnumbered ...."
It is cruel - yet, they have set out precisely to trap him, haven't they? Because otherwise he could have stepped back (or more precisely run, literally or metaphorically) as soon as he sets eyes on Doyle. The scenario is unquestionably a trap.

Yes, that's my original point - Bodie felt they were in collusion, that he was trapped by them because he *was* trapped by them - whether or not there was another way round the problem of how to approach him in the first place, what was fair to him - given that operational secrecy had to be maintained - they did it in a very cruel way.

Whether you find this ethically or emotionally justifiable is another issue! I suspect the positioning was D's choice, though! He traps B again later the same day in the bath, so he can't escape.

Yeah!!!! *Why* didn't he speak then? Uggghghghghghghhg!!! *Was* he merely enjoying seeing the results of his sexual power and allure as he did later in the pub with Bodie's secretary? If I was as sexy as Doyle I think I'd find it hard not to enjoy the effects I have on people.

As for telling Bodie much earlier about Nic, we have the benefit of being the omniscient observer, in that all the information about Nic which they gradually discovered is made known to us in more or less one go.

I thought they knew pretty early on about Nic and the lengths she was prepared to go do..... maybe not.

ah, but I was really quite surprised to discover later how shaky D is himself during those first days, indeed his whole time away - contrast the scene where we hear at the time about Bodie's strong emotional reaction to the apparently cool Doyle coming into the room while he is in the bath but only discover much later how D was also powerfully affected by that, indeed the whole time he was with B during those days. So D was also hiding very powerful emotions.

I know! But Doyle had come all that way, had time to think about it much more, to prepare for it and he *still* doesn't say anything!!!!!!

Well, you got your discussion with a vengeance, though I don't know whether it has helped answer your question!

Actually, I must read it again because I think I'm reacting to peoples' views here, rather than actually deciding what I believe myself. Though one thing I am beginning to realise is that not only was it a very well written story but it was also a very clever story - psychologically clever and, as you and others have said, the plotting was excellent in the way the writer inserted so many clues and arrows for the reader, very early on. That's what I meant when I said how sure-footed KM is, and how safe I feel in her hands. She doesn't put a foot wrong.

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

they effectively presented him with a fait accompli as you might a child - don't give him too many choices or he won't be able to cope;

I don't think they're treating him so much like a child as someone who is ill and doesn't realize it. They're pulling an intervention, although they wouldn't have referred to it as such.

And I thought part of the keeping him out of things and "collusion" was in part a deliberate attempt to infuriate him, to shake him out of is robotic state one way or the other. Because, remember, as enraged as he is, we aren't seeing what Doyle and Cowley and everyone else is. They only see an impassive ice man.

even after the initial proposal was put to him they still kept him out of their opinions and discussions, still - metaphorically - continuing to talk over his head or behind his back - for his own good; and both,


But you see at this point Bodie is their opponent. They are fighting Bodie -- they are fighting him to save him and for his own good (in their opinion) but they are fighting him all the same. And neither of these men -- Cowlely in particular -- always fights fair. In fact, in a sense Doyle has finally been brought to using emotional Dum Dums. He's gotta be fairly desperate.

I'm not sure how Bodie, in his depressed state, manages to lead quite such a happy life with Veronica. Is it possible to be partially depresssed?

Well how happy was Bodie, really? He's an unreliable narrator at best. He thinks he was happy, but he's not a man prone to a lot of self-examination or introspection. I doubt if he gave himself time to stop and consider what his happiness consisted of. He was too grateful not to be dead or deranged.

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

I have a general question since I haven't read the zine, but I have read the posts, so my knowledge of the story is gathered from here. I think I've gotten the fact that by the end, they've apparently resolved their differences. If that's wrong, then don't bother reading further!

Is the (happy?) resolution actually unrealistic after the pain suffered by both Bodie and Doyle? Is there a very good reason for there being any trust and love between them by the end? Or is that sort of thing irrelevant in this story?

[faramir-boromir.livejournal.com]

There is a happy conclusion, but lots of suffering before you get there. And the happiness and trust re-established is on a very firm footing, grounded in reality.

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

I think because the reasons for the split are realistic and in character, the resolution is believable. And therefore satisfying.

[noblesentiments.livejournal.com]

paris7am

It's almost like they occupy a secret world, like twins sometimes do.

YES!

I'm just wondering here how much of their mutual attraction is based on pure, unadultered sexual chemistry and how much of it is down to the way they *do* seem to occupy their own little universe, their silent communication, the way they can bypass everyone else, the way they click....and despite all the angst and estrangement between them, did we see any examples of this type of closeness and telepathic understanding in Redemption? Hmmm....maybe the scene at the airport, when Bodie knows Doyle is watching him, from behind his shades? And even though Doyle's wife is present, it's still just *them* alone, eyes locked across an open space.....and the rest of the world ceases to exist.

[faramir-boromir.livejournal.com]

It's amazing that the mental connection between them still works, after months apart. Yet Doyle demonstrates his knowledge of what Bodie is needing (Dispirin) and feeling ("We really put you through the wringer, didn't we?") without necessarily getting everything about Bodie's psyche (when Doyle suggests that maybe it would have been better if they hadn't told Bodie what happened, and Bodie nearly explodes--not wanting to be coddled). The connection is good, but not perfect in every respect during the story.

The perfection of it comes, IMO, at the end, when Doyle invades Bodie's office. He knows what Bodie needs better than his own partner does, even if it means airing the office afterwards.

[faramir-boromir.livejournal.com]

I'm wondering about something new: what sort of relationship does Cowley expect them to have professionally, if B&D can't restart their private relationship? That is, Doyle is the one who says, if you won't have me I won't take CI5----but Cowley never says that. Does Cowley have the omniscient view, that he'll either get both or neither, but he'll no longer have the Bodie he has at the start of the story no matter what once the end comes?

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Cowley's a wise old bird and I think that he'd realise it would be damn hard for them to work together without the full relationship they had in the past. That's why he puts so much time and effort into the whole thing, because he knows so much hinges upon the outcome: will ci5 benefit from this inspired dual leadership, or, when he leaves, will there be a vacuum at the top? I think he knows it's all or nothing for B & D.

[faramir-boromir.livejournal.com]

And on a different Cowley note: he claims that he's revealing this information to Bodie because it is for the man's good--so he'll become a human again and start caring. But how much for Cowley is this reveal about besting "an enemy" namely, Veronica, the person who gulled him? Is it 30/70? 50/50? Does he suspect that Veronica will stop at nothing to entrap Bodie completely, even to the point of fatherhood?

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Ah, interesting point. I think Cowley would suspect Veronica of stopping at nothing, but I'd not considered the possibility of him enacting revenge on her before you mention that. I wonder, is he that small-minded? Does he have enough time in his busy day for such thoughts? Hmmmmm....maybe.

Jumping in, sink or swim... 1

[paris7am.livejournal.com]

This is an incredible discussion, even though very daunting to try and join at this late stage! I've been reading your comments and usually agreeing vehemently with what's being said. Since there is so much of this discussion, I hope you'll forgive me if I repeat or if I've missed things - it's a lot of to think about, too!

I love that the story is so rich and detailed that it's nearly impossible to wrap my brain around it - picturing all of the layers, the unfolding plots being revealed, going forwards and backwards in time, partially obscured, the motion into cocoon and out of chrysalis, the beautifully executed unreliable narrator always leaving you wondering, the torturous stepping stones leading towards the dark mysteries at the heart of it. I find it beautifully beautifully composed - truly wonderful.

I think that s2k stated it perfectly: a very well written story but it was also a very clever story - psychologically clever and, as you and others have said, the plotting was excellent in the way the writer inserted so many clues and arrows for the reader, very early on. That's what I meant when I said how sure-footed KM is, and how safe I feel in her hands. She doesn't put a foot wrong.

I also really liked how rosie55 describes it: s the layers of the story are delicately peeled back and the plot revealed. And KM manages to move the story from a point at the beginning where you can't see how this can possibly be resolved in any satisfying way - a tension she keeps up till practically the end.

I think that what I was caught up in most - besides the gorgeous emotional grip and the beautiful detail of what B and D were to each other - was the question of wanting to "solve" the mystery at the heart of it while simultaneously wanting to willfully blind myself to it as B does. What had happened? How had it come to this? I think that the deepest crux - Doyle's betrayal of Bodie..."I *am* in love with her" and "I didn't want to *marry* you, Bodie" - is dark and bloody enough - grievous enough - that the plot flows naturally, with the absolute right sense of gravity, despair, injury - that B's emotional and mental state is perfectly merited and understandable. It all *fits*.

Uncoiling the plot in the opposite direction and trying to ascertain what's at the heart of Doyle's part in this is fascinating, also, even though I admit that despite the hints and clues along the way as to his true feelings, I found it easier to harden my heart against him, to feel as though whatever pain and turmoil he experiences is almost merited in his case... *almost*!

The other mysteries - D and C's secret alliance over B, and Nic's lengthy manipulation and machinations fit in rightly, and make sense to me, put the last bits of the puzzle together, even if there are pieces which still niggle at me. As some of you have mentioned, it is hard to truly believe that Doyle would have called Cowley, would have continued to rely on Cowley's word, wouldn't have flown over and stalked Bodie himself if he really was interested, if he truly realized his mistake and wanted B back... (Don't wait until the Cow says B's engaged - get over there now and do something, Doyle!) I do understand that he was having his own extreme difficulties, but still! I somehow require more from him, in my heart, as the one who left, who 'broke' it to pieces. And if he hadn't behaved as he did, we wouldn't have this gorgeous story...

Re: Jumping in, sink or swim... 2

[paris7am.livejournal.com]

The time frame? I can see why some of you felt it was too short, as well as why others of you thought it was about right. I remember feeling disoriented when I realized that it had only been two years since Doyle had left - the way in which Bodie was thinking about things made me imagine that it had been a lot longer. Again, unreliable and I think, rightly so.

The little clues, the moments almost straight from canon - these make it so very real they're brilliantly done. For me, they take what someone *might* be able to take apart as being overly dramatic or emotional and make it *strong*. We can see in canon how Bodie has reacted in the past - we know his tendencies. We know from canon how Doyle has turned to women in the past - it's clear. All of the lovely tie-ins, from the HongKong connection and the real historical placement, to the exact posture of Doyle and his placement in a room, to the setting of the top secret meeting - it FITS, it's already there in your mind, and it cements it all together that much more tightly. Even the messy things that feel distractingly unnecessary - the case B was working on before Doyle shows up - everything fits in with a purpose, even symmetrically in some cases.

I think I could write all night - no, all week - and not be able to satisfy the things which I want to say, the praises I want to heap, the moments that burn in my memory. At this moment, thinking of how to finish writing tonight, I find myself thinking of the intimate moments between Bodie and Doyle in the story, and how hungry I was for them. That incredible desire for them to be alone, to find a bridge, for a spark to burst into flame and somehow change things. The aching burn of those moments when Bodie would be so hurt that he'd imagine everything inside him just crashing down, blank, new page. The moments when Doyle would look at him and say "Bodie...what am i going to do with you?" with such immense tenderness...

Re: Jumping in, sink or swim... 1

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Oh, Paris, you've said everything I'm feeling but can't manage to articulate. I came in from boring old food shopping, switched on the computer hoping that there might be something worth reading and lo and behold I'm presented with this treat! You and others here have reinforced my belief that this was a truly remarkable story, not only brilliantly plotted (how did she manage it? Planting all the bits n' bobs which would have relevance for much later on? Let alone creating this wonderful, sexy, sad, erotics atmosphere where they don't even touch each other for about 200 pages!)

How had it come to this? I think that the deepest crux - Doyle's betrayal of Bodie..."I *am* in love with her" and "I didn't want to *marry* you, Bodie" - is dark and bloody enough - grievous enough - that the plot flows naturally, with the absolute right sense of gravity, despair, injury - that B's emotional and mental state is perfectly merited and understandable. It all *fits*.

Yes, I couldn't quite get over Doyle's very definite (though temporary) declaration of love for someone else and what it must have done to Bodie *for ever* and I think there are hints even towards the end of the story that the road ahead will be rocky and Bodie can never completely forget, though he does forgive....but he can never be totally sure of Doyle again which might keep the relationship from becoming boring or stale....

(Don't wait until the Cow says B's engaged - get over there now and do something, Doyle!) I do understand that he was having his own extreme difficulties, but still! I somehow require more from him, in my heart, as the one who left, who 'broke' it to pieces. And if he hadn't behaved as he did, we wouldn't have this gorgeous story...

Yes, if Doyle was besotted with Bodie one might think that he couldn't stop himself...but then, maybe, his love was such that he *did* want the very best for Bodie and his actions reflected this and that he was trying not to act selfishly *again* .....

Re: Jumping in, sink or swim... 1

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

Uncoiling the plot in the opposite direction and trying to ascertain what's at the heart of Doyle's part in this is fascinating, also, even though I admit that despite the hints and clues along the way as to his true feelings, I found it easier to harden my heart against him, to feel as though whatever pain and turmoil he experiences is almost merited in his case... *almost*!

As I mentioned to someone off-line, we want Doyle to suffer. It's through his suffering that we see how much he cares for Bodie, how much he regrest his stupidity, and I think for dramatic balance and emotional satisfaction, his suffering and atonement needs to be in proportion to Bodie's -- and Bodie has suffered a great deal.

As some of you have mentioned, it is hard to truly believe that Doyle would have called Cowley, would have continued to rely on Cowley's word, wouldn't have flown over and stalked Bodie himself if he really was interested, if he truly realized his mistake and wanted B back... (Don't wait until the Cow says B's engaged - get over there now and do something, Doyle!) I do understand that he was having his own extreme difficulties, but still! I somehow require more from him, in my heart, as the one who left, who 'broke' it to pieces.

I guess maybe it gets down to different interpretations of DoyleS character and psyche. It's one reason why I believe he wouldn't have been able to hold off for more than two years. But the two year interim...

My own take is that Doyle is as fiercely off-balance and frightened by what he feels for Bodie as vice versa -- that anguished scene following Bodie nearly getting killed when Doyle quite literally jumps his bones. So that being the case, I think it's reasonable to assume that Doyle is an insecure and vulnerable to doubts about Bodie's true feelings, and that the news that Bodie had married -- Bodie? would throw him entirely.

And of course he's guilty as hell. He knows he doesn't deserve to be forgiven -- this is perhaps Doyle's martyr complex coming into play? What right does he have to destroy this newfound happiness of Bodie's? Especially when Cowley, who he also trusts, is telling him that all is well with Bodie.

And finally, as unromantic as it sounds, Doyle is a man with ambitions and career aspirations. He's a professional. He can't just chuck his new career and the commitments he's made -- unless he's prepared to self-destruct professionally. And he's not. He's certainly not when he has no reason to believe his sacrifice would be needed or welcomed. At this point he has to figure that all he may have left is this job -- and it is a great Temptation-of-Christ job.

Re: Jumping in, sink or swim... 1

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

love that the story is so rich and detailed that it's nearly impossible to wrap my brain around it - picturing all of the layers, the unfolding plots being revealed, going forwards and backwards in time, partially obscured, the motion into cocoon and out of chrysalis, the beautifully executed unreliable narrator always leaving you wondering, the torturous stepping stones leading towards the dark mysteries at the heart of it. I find it beautifully beautifully composed - truly wonderful.

It is beautifully plotted, isn't it? It's not just a romance, not that there's anything to disparage in a skillfully plotted romance, but there's strong and well-executed mystery plot here and several sub-plots as well as the central romance.

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

but she manages to write about those aspects of their characters with such originality and plausibility that the reader can forgive and forget that the concept is almost a cliche - she just makes it so real, believable and it's a relationship we can probably all recogniseto some extent.

Maybe because, like a lot of cliches, there's truth to it?

Re: Jumping in, sink or swim... 1

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

Paris, I didn't reply directly to your comment in case Josh wanted to step in there but I particularly liked this bit of your discussion:

Perversely, I think that it's the very same depth of their connection (which frightens D off) which I cannot help but feel would make it impossible for D to stay away

..... and going off at a slight tangent but hopefully still related to what you're saying, the contradictions within each of them and between them are so intriguing......it's almost like they're doing somersaults with each other or on a seesaw, and in Yellow Brick Road KM actually writes about that seesaw of like and dislike; rivalry and compulsive, unwilling attraction......it's a slight variation on the theme of 'can't live with or without you' but she manages to write about those aspects of their relationship with such originality and plausibility that the reader can forgive and forget that the concept is almost a cliche - she just makes it so real and believable that it's a relationship we can probably all recognise to some extent.