Fic discussion - A Balcony and a View of the Sea by Helen Raven

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

A hundred curses on my internet provider - my internet was so slow last night, after a fortnight of being really slow, on top of me being tired, that I couldn't possibly have posted. And just when I had time and inclination and the internet seemed better again this morning, my computer began doing weird things, as if someone was remote controlling it, so that I had to shut it all down and run away from it... It seems normal now, so cross fingers, because I've been wanting to chat about this ever since I finished it (actually before that, while I was reading it!) and I know other people finished it long before I did, so I'd love to hear what you think! I'm going to throw out a few thoughts and wonderings, but I'll put them under a cut to avoid spoilers for people who haven't read it yet.

Do you have thoughts and wonderings about the story? Love it, like it, think it's okay, really dislike it? It's an interesting concept (to me, anyway) - not a sequel or prequel, but an alternative version of the original The Cook and the Warehouseman - what do you reckon to that?

Do come and review/discuss/chat!

A Balcony and a View of the Sea

The Cook and the Warehouseman (original version of A Balcony and a View of the Sea).

So, I have to say straight up that Helen Raven's Pros fic in general is just my cup of tea - I don't think she's written a thing that I don't like. *g* I may not always feel comfortable about what's going on (e.g. The Same River, Techniques) but it wouldn't evoke such a response in me if she hadn't made me believe in her lads in the first place, and what I want from writing is to respond to it in some way. It might be simply that it makes me happy, or laugh out loud, or be very sad, but the more complex the emotions, the better I think it is, and the more I like it. The world is a grey, grey place, nothing is straightforward. As MS once said about playing the character of Cecil Rhodes, no one wakes up in the morning and thinks "what evil thing can I do today?" People all have reasons for what they do, they have justifications for every moment and emotion, and that's what we respond to in each other. When we don't understand the justification then the relationship goes wrong for us, but when we do then our emotions and reactions are all the stronger for it. Well, that's what I reckon. *g*

I really liked The Cook and the Warehouseman, and it's one of my perennial re-reads. Some things make me raise my eyebrows (well, I can't do one at a time *g*), but at the end of the day, I'm responding to it, and I believe in it. I was a bit taken aback when I found out that A Balcony and a Sea View was effectively a re-make rather than a sequel, and it took me a while to get into that idea, even as I was reading, but the first scenes managed that for me - I realised that we knew who Udom Kol was even if Bodie didn't, and the bloke he fancied from the "foreign office", and it was interesting how that pre-knowledge tried to shape my expectations of what would happen. If it was a re-make, then Bodie would surely still end up on an alien planet... or would it be the other way around this time, and Doyle ended up trying to adapt to Earth...? Well, no, it was still the former...!

There were a few things made me crinkle my pretty little nose (okay, great enormous conk) as I was reading this version though, and I wondered what other people might have thought. Did you notice these things too, or is it just me? Or did you notice, but could fit them into your own fanon somehow? I can often do that with Pros fic - stretch my own web to meet the way someone else's web is stretching, so that I'm just reading a slightly different pattern of threads rather than "not my lads". But sometimes I'm just not sure what I'm seeing, and some help would be appreciated. *g*

1. Doyle being younger than Bodie in the story. It's canon that Doyle's about a year older than Bodie, I'm sure it is. But this isn't the only fic to make it the other way around (and it's often my favourite authors, like Rhiannon, who do it!) Did that throw anyone?

2. I'm still not sure about Doyle's inability to fuck/be fucked by Bodie, cos of the semen and because the Mabein were watching, but his acceptance of them humping each other and both coming. Surely if it's bestiality to have sex with Bodie cos he's an animal, then it's just as much bestiality if they touch each other sexually at all, even if they have clothes on. I think it's explained that it's semen that's the issue, but then... well, maybe I just have a different definition of bestiality (or perhaps of sex - is the author going all Bill Clinton on me?) Do the Mabein only see it as bestiality if Hailin semen touches an "animal"? Not if a Hailin uses an animal to come? (But if that's true, then I'm not entirely comfortable with that!)

3. The lads seem to have alot of physical reactions to emotional issues, like when Doyle decides he won't kiss Bodie when they part for the night, and Bodie reacts physically to that, so that Doyle has to get him a drink of water. There's other examples too - and especially of Doyle reacting physically to stress, though I guess the justification there is that he's Hailin. But none of this seems very B/D to me, who are (mostly) very physically controlled in the eps. Okay, it's not as extreme as, say, Angelfish Archivist, who has them fainting and in convulsions, but still... or am I making the ep-lads out to be too controlled in my head? (I know Doyle has tear-y eyes in Klansmen, and wonders why he's "acting like this" when he's slightly tear-y in Involved, but - how much do they physically react (as opposed to taking action of some kind) when they're upset in the eps?

Then again, although Doyle's dramatic reaction to finding out that Bodie was "an animal" in The Cook and the Warehouseman (TC&tW) made me read sideways for a while, I ended up believing it absolutely - I'm not sure I'm as convinced this time, and I'm trying to work out why not. Maybe it's the opposite problem here - in fact there seems to be almost too much acceptance of things in A Balcony and a Sea View (AB&aSV). It's a bit like the tide coming in but never quite touching the sandcastle - every time you think there will be some wonderful crashing and crumbling of the world so that it can be built anew and better, but it's averted via some new work-through, and they carry on not-quite-in-disaster again and again.

4. Bodie seems very comfortable with being physically affectionate, kissing in public and so on! We see and hear him hating this in Madness of Mickey Hamilton ("...everyone's watching!"). Is it part of the relief and freedom he feels at being accepted for who he is on the alien Hailin world, when it would never have been possible on Earth, or is it just out of character?

5. Malun describes Doyle to Bodie as "untranslatable", and again this seems a bit canon-backwards to me. In Rogue Ruth describes Doyle as "alarmingly perceptive" and Bodie as "impenetrable". Is Doyle's mind really as twisty in canon as it is in AB&aSV, to the point that Cowley and Bodie can't follow his thoughts and reasoning? Or that "Ray's mind was bound to suprise them both"? Do we ever see that in the eps, or anything to think it might be? In my head its somewhat the other way around - we know what Doyle feels strongly about (social injustice etc.), whereas we're never really sure about Bodie's motivation for being in CI5, for instance.

6. Bodie says he won't let Doyle go into gimana, but then after he's run away to the moors, he explains that he thought everything would "shut down" for Ray, and they wouldn't want each other any more, and Doyle would go off and have sex with other men. Am I missing something that makes that possible? Surely Doyle's not able to have sex with any other man now that he's matched to Bodie? What have I forgotten...?

7. This version seems to have moved somewhat to describing Bodie as pretty much the perfect being, and Doyle as relatively warped/unreasonable/ugly (I know it's from Bodie's pov, but still...) Doyle is hugely emotional/untranslatable/psychologically damaged (even before he falls for Bodie, really), and is described as having had an STD when in college, whereas everyone likes Bodie straight away, even Ward; he's quick to adapt to the Hailin way of life; he doesn't seem to have any psychological problems with doing so (Doyle just seems to have psychological problems)... It's something that will automatically throw in me in a fic, because I don't see either of the lads as perfect like that (or even imperfect but with the right flaws) - they're both differently flawed, and that's exactly why I do like our ep-lads.

8. My final thing (cos really, eight is enough things to be picky/wonder about *g*) is probably my biggest problem with being able to say I wholeheartedly like this version of the story. I actually appreciate that it's probably more about me and my own preferences than the story itself, which simply made a choice of direction, but... I kind of struggled to read it, to be honest - Doyle's very faithful acting of being a "soragon" with Bodie. I get the justification given for him doing it, but... I think again it hits my squick of the lads being very unequal. The idea of Doyle acting like a dog for Bodie, to the point of playing fetch with him, and eating and sleeping like an animal while Bodie pets him... it came over as being humiliating to me, rather than something fun or playful. And it's not that I don't like bdsm fic, I do - but not, I think, if one of them was playing at being an animal. I think it's quite a strong... what? Strong behaviour? Specific kink? I'm not entirely sure, but I was sorry the story went there, to be honest.

So - does anyone have replies or work-arounds for any of those things? Does anyone have other questions they'd like responses or work-arounds for, in the story? What did you think of the story in general? Did it convince you that it was our Bodie and Doyle? Who are "our" Bodie and Doyle anyway?! Do we care, when the writing flows...?

Comments

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

I only finished the story this morning, so you are going to be stuck with mostly first impressions until I go back and process my reading some more. Certainly I can't do a complete comparison with TC&TW - in fact I had to steer myself away from comparisons after the plot diverged as it was too easy to think about how the original story played out.

Overall I enjoyed it, although it was a big enough story that I didn't feel the same way about all of it: I loved some parts while not being entirely too sure about others, and there was a section in the middle that felt overly drawn out in the way it was told. Generally though, I'm a fan of HR's writing - I think it rewards re-reading and thinking about it, although there are also parts that give an immediate buzz ;)

Oh, one little thing that is bugging me beyond its significance in the story is the walls in the new apartment - because there was obviously some thought that went into the decorating and particularly Ward's blacks on black painting and how it looked. "Pine-green" is a hard colour to pin down, and It seems as though it was modelled on something so even though I'm oblivious to the nuances of colour and walls generally, I would like to know!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Lol - I'm on week-old first impressions myself, and I've definitely not done a "comparison read" with TCatW, though I've a slight yen to re-read that now. I also found myself comparing the plots as I read though, which I suppose is inevitable - like watching the remake of a film... which makes me think of the way that I don't really want a remake of Pros, because I love the original so much, and with a slight similar feeling this way - except that I couldn't resist a new HR Pros novel!

I agree, too, about it being long enough that reading it was a different experience in different parts. I think it slowed down in the middle too. The tensions that it did build up seemed to be dealt with fairly - not easily or quickly, but... dealt with, which I think had an effect too, whereas TCatW was building up to the major calamity and then dealing with it and resolving it, which kept up the reading momentum better for me.

I never thought about the walls and their colour having any special significance - I assumed it was something the author was interested in at the time (and I wonder whose knitting came first too, HR's or West's!) Be interesting to know, though!

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

It was the combination of the wall colours, which by itself didn't mean much, especially since they'd had a friend do the palette for them, but as a setting for the painting that Ward gave Bodie that sounded dramatic and something I'd like to see for myself.

Just thinking, though - I wonder if that sibling conflict was supposed to be bigger in the story, because it kind of squibbed out, first with Bodie impressing Ward, then Ray kind of letting it be, which according to the rest of the family was not characteristic.

The tensions that it did build up seemed to be dealt with fairly - not easily or quickly, but... dealt with, which I think had an effect too, whereas TCatW was building up to the major calamity and then dealing with it and resolving it
Ooh, I think I'd like to map the flow of the two stories, because that sounds about right to me.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I seem to remember the Doyle/Ward conflict being bigger in TCatW, and I think I rather read it as something that had helped to shape Ray. In ABaaSV though, it doesn't seem to have much purpose to the story except to make Doyle look bad, rather spoilt-brattish. After all, if Bodie can get on with Ward so easily, there must be good in Ray's twin. And other people's description of Ward seems to support that - he's a mathematician with a love of art, is very generous about loaning and giving away his art, and has plenty of friends of his own. Doyle, by comparison seems to have friends at work, and who basically revolve around sex, and I don't think they're described in other contexts really...

I could see Ray's relationship with Ward being transformed with Bodie as a medium, but I don't think the story really goes there, or at least not with any purpose about it, which I found I was looking for.

I like the idea of mapping the story flow - do share, if you have a chance to do it!

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

1. “Thirty-three last month.”
“Huh. I’ve got a few months to go to twenty-nine..."
I noticed that too - I nearly always do as it pings me as the wrong way around, I agree about canon - however it didn't stick. The discussion about the calendar, with the Hailin years being slightly longer than Earth years, blurred the issue: - "Their year was a bit longer than Earth’s, and their weeks were nine days long with a three-day weekend".
Hmm... so if something like puberty is normal among the Hailin at fourteen, then they "qualify" at around twenty-five, then those who qualify find someone they can pair-bond with and they 'fix' on them, become addicted so that's the only person they can mate with. So Ray had been having lots of sex with lots of different people and had never become addicted - I suppose he couldn't have been too many years past qualifying then.
...and then
I guess she's chosen the year, 1983, and if Bodie was 27 or so in 1977 he would have to be about 33 then, in canon.

I'm just going to hand-wave the difference, I think! It is only a minor factoid.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I wish I could remember the ep where we hear about their ages - I can picture the moment, they're in the car, and it's very quick but definitely something like "you're only a few months younger" from Doyle, or the opposite from Bodie.

I can hand-wave it through as I usually do, although it came up a few times in the story, feeling a bit like hiccoughs!

Interesting to think about Doyle's Hailin puberty etc., never thought of working it out like that. I think there were a few cues about the year, weren't there - though again I can't think of them now! 1983 sounds right though (I bet if I look it actually says 1983 in there somewhere, too... *g*

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

It's in chapter One - the shared one. "The first ships of the alien fleet came into orbit around Earth on Wednesday, September the 7th, 1983, just after 6pm, GMT."

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Hah - knew it'd be somewhere obvious (I even remember the flow of the words, as I read them!) Thank you!

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

8. I think I was mostly okay about the kink - it is one, like pony girls and boys, and people make costumes, write stories and everything. For me it was very much Ray acting in a scene as being Bodie's "soragon" (I suppose puppy play would be the thing here), and then being himself again - at least that's how it seemed to me when I read it last night, so I hope that was right. And certainly Bodie wasn't immune to it! I need to think about this some more though, because the way I got through it was more to do with what I was thinking about how it had emerged from the cognitive and visualisation therapy that Ray had been doing with Ullis, and how Ullis was the best counsellor they could find even though he was taken aback from a cultural point of view.
I mean the culture is just so strong in that way, which is what's feeding Ray's thoughts about the Mabien and preventing him from developing a different scenario for himself and Bodie. He has to think himself 'out' of the culture before he can escape its hold.
But yes, I think they're both pretty kinky in this story.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

like pony girls and boys, and people make costumes... Ray acting in a scene as being Bodie's "soragon"... puppy play
Yeah, I get that it's based on a kink, but it's one that I find really specialised, and I can't really imagine the lads going there so I struggled with that whole section. Like I said, that's about my own preferences rather than the story itself.

the way I got through it was more to do with what I was thinking about how it had emerged from the cognitive and visualisation therapy that Ray had been doing with Ullis
Yeah, making Doyle an animal like Bodie, rather than trying to fit Bodie into the Hailin was good. I preferred the final story that they came up with though, where Doyle wasn't really Hailin either (but he also wasn't a puppy-dog!) but a changeling who even the Mabein had mistaken for one of their own. I'd have to read it again to see how well the soragon story line worked as a transition to that place, which is where Doyle was finally able to reconcile the differences.

I've always wondered (in TCatW too) why Bodie/Doyle/the various Hailin didn't try to match Bodie's conviction that he was in love with Doyle/had found his soul-mate to the extent that he was prepared to abandon not just his own culture but his own planet, with the Hailin form of pair bonding. In some ways gimana and so on is just an extreme extension of some people's version of love - people pining away when their partner dies, and dying shortly after, is actual reality! Okay, so for the Hailin that is inescapable and humans may or may not be in love to that extreme, but I'm surprised it never came up even in Bodie's thoughts, when trying to understand things. Bodie never seems to try and think himself into the culture, he just learns about it so that he can fit in (if that comparison makes sense to anyone but me!)

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

I haven't read The Cook and the Warehouseman (TC&tW). I don't know why, there is no reason for it. It just didn't happen.
And I just startet A Balcony and a Sea View(10%), so I can't say that much.

But so far I really enjoy the story!
It keeps my interest with ease, I really didn't expected that! Maybe I was a bit afraid of too much technical stuff in a Sci Fi story? Instead we learn interesting insights of a foreign culture. Nice!

And there is a lot of sex at the beginning. Maybe too much for my taste, but it's an important part of the plot - and it's very well written.

There are strong minor characters, I like that!

At this moment of the story Bodie is running around London as if he hadn't left CI5 without a word - but if his past isn't important for the rest of the story, that's ok for me. After all there was no partner Doyle, and therefore no such strong connections to that life! ;-)

Of course I've read the whole discussion above. ;-)
Because there is not much that can spoil a story for me(death IS). For me it adds to the fun to explore points I could have missed. Often my second or third reading of a story is even more fun than the first!

I hope that includes point 8. ;-)
"The idea of Doyle acting like a dog for Bodie, to the point of playing fetch with him, and eating and sleeping like an animal while Bodie pets him... it came over as being humiliating to me, rather than something fun or playful. And it's not that I don't like bdsm fic, I do..."
I don't. I usually skip such parts. So I'm hopeful that it won't influence my liking of the rest of the story!

"1. Doyle being younger than Bodie in the story... Did that throw anyone?"
Not me. They are both 'around 30'. That's ok!
Though I have problems when one of them is a teenager and the other indeed an adult.

OOC?
AU is something special. I grant them to have a different development, to be different.
So far there is nothing to throw me out of the story!

Thank you for that good review! I've missed that.

And many thanks to Helen Raven for such a good reading - and for posting her stories on AO3!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

But so far I really enjoy the story! ... Maybe I was a bit afraid of too much technical stuff in a Sci Fi story? Instead we learn interesting insights of a foreign culture. Nice!
It is interesting, isn't it! I've always liked SF that looks at cultures and humanity more than the technical abilities of spacecraft etc. (though I don't mind a bit of that).

There are strong minor characters, I like that!
Yes! Me too!

Because there is not much that can spoil a story for me(death IS). For me it adds to the fun to explore points I could have missed. Often my second or third reading of a story is even more fun than the first!
We're different like that. *g* I want to feel the full impact of what an author has written - I know that when I write things in a certain order, I'm doing it for a reason, to have a specific effect on the reader, and so I assume that other writers are too. I love to explore stories, and re-read them, but after I've read them for the first time. But it's nice to have you here mid-story, if that's what you're happy with! *g*

I don't. I usually skip such parts. So I'm hopeful that it won't influence my liking of the rest of the story!
The puppy-play isn't until near the very end of the novel, so hopefully that will be okay!

Not me. They are both 'around 30'. That's ok! Though I have problems when one of them is a teenager and the other indeed an adult.
If there's not too big a deal made of it, then I'm okay with it - I can "hand-wave it through". It's mentioned a few times in this story, I think, and perhaps adds a bit to the Bodie-is-more-wise-and-experienced-than-Doyle-and-almost-perfect element, which I don't particularly believe in, but it's not too bad. There's one story I love by Rhiannon where Bodie is an adult and Doyle a teenager, and if it was anyone but her trying to make it work, I don't think I could take it at all!

OOC?
AU is something special. I grant them to have a different development, to be different. So far there is nothing to throw me out of the story!
I agree that AU allows characters to be different, but I still need the essence of our lads to be there, otherwise why is it an AU Pros story rather than simply original fiction? Do you have anything you need to see for it to be AU Pros, or are you really happy with anything? Maybe just appearance and names?

Thank you for that good review! I've missed that.
Thank you! I've missed story reviews and chats too! I wonder if we can try to do it more often again...

And many thanks to Helen Raven for such a good reading - and for posting her stories on AO3!
Hear hear! *g*

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[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

I tried to read it and got into about 1/4th. I didn't care for either character and couldn't "see" the story so I skimmed and read the last page. Good writing and world building. Didn't care for either the Bodie or the Doyle character. I can say the writer succeeded (if that was a goal) in making me dislike Doyle and feel uncomfortable with his ideas of what's good enough for his special race. Smacks of the history of man, so that was well done. But since I read for enjoyment not to be taught the rights and wrongs of human evolution I had to bail out. Kind of like "Klansmen". By the end, Bodie is miraculously cured of his racism. Doyle is cured of his by the end of this story. I'm sure it's just me.

But it's always great having a new Pros novel! I know a lot of people will enjoy every word.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Am I right in thinking you're not a fan of TCatW too? Or am I misremembering?

I think I agree that HR didn't make Doyle a very likeable character, and he didn't come across as having "sane" reasons for his ideosyncrasies in some ways. I'm not sure where you left off, so not sure what you might have read to see to explain Doyle's behaviour, but if that sort of characterisation goes too far, it can be hard to come back from.

History here on Earth is certainly about each tribe thinking they're "special" and should be more protected than any other tribe, and the Hailin are a good reflection of that. (From a similar pov, I tend to talk about the history of people myself, not just of men... *g*) I didn't have the feeling of being lectured to though, which would indeed have put me right off - I think HR's writing on that front was a good "show" rather than a lecturing "tell". I didn't feel that way with Klansmen though either, though it was clearly pointing out the stupidity of racism.

You won't have seen it since you stopped reading, but Doyle actually went through an awful lot in the story, and it took a long time for his "cure" (in Klansmen Bodie's "cure" did seem more miraculous, although perhaps less so back when the show was made, because they wouldn't have expected us to watch it over and again!) Actually my problem with this links back to your first point, which is that Doyle is rather made out to be all faults compared to Bodie who is made out to be basically reasonable and entirely patient and tolerant. In fact, canon-wise it's Bodie who's intolerant and most outwardly racist (Doyle has his moments too in fact, but not ones that are commonly considered racist) without questioning himself.

So... you might have a better impression if you ever decide to try it again, but I can see why you might not want to! The characterisation does require a stretch at times, compared to our ep lads (though there are also nicely done touches, I'd say).

[macklingirl.livejournal.com]

I never read TC&TW so I can't compare the two stories.

I'm now at the point where Doyle visits the first counsellor.

2. That is something I don't understand either. Because if it's only the semen-mingling-thing why don't they use something like condoms? I'm sure the Hailin must have some equivalent to the Earth-condoms. If it is about the sex then I don't understand that they can do all the dry-humping. Because that is sex and I can't see that the Mabein will be ok with that.

6. I think Dolye would be able to get fucked by other men, but he isn't able to fuck any other men because he is addicted to Bodie. But I didn't find any hint that Bodie thought all would be "shut down". He only thinks that Doyle lied the whole time when he told him that he is happy to be married to him. He thinks only to shut the sex down, so that they should live together as friends. For me this is a logical thought because he promised to be there for Doyle who needs him and he loves Doyle, even if Doyle doesn't treat him well.

I like the story, but this Bodie and Doyle are not my Bodie and Doyle. They could have any name in this story and I would read it, because it is very well written. Their behavior is so "No-Pros" for me. But nontheless I'm going to read the rest of the story because I want to know how it ends and if they could have good sex again. And I'm curious about the dog-thing. ;-)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I never read TC&TW so I can't compare the two stories.
Fair enough! (But I'd recommend it... *g*)

2. That is something I don't understand either. Because if it's only the semen-mingling-thing why don't they use something like condoms? I'm sure the Hailin must have some equivalent to the Earth-condoms. If it is about the sex then I don't understand that they can do all the dry-humping. Because that is sex and I can't see that the Mabein will be ok with that.
Good point about the condoms, I never thought of that! So it must be something more than just the semen-mingling, but then if it is... yeah, why is dry-humping okay?

6. I think Dolye would be able to get fucked by other men, but he isn't able to fuck any other men because he is addicted to Bodie. But I didn't find any hint that Bodie thought all would be "shut down". He only thinks that Doyle lied the whole time when he told him that he is happy to be married to him. He thinks only to shut the sex down, so that they should live together as friends. For me this is a logical thought because he promised to be there for Doyle who needs him and he loves Doyle, even if Doyle doesn't treat him well.
So they would live together as friends, and Doyle would have his mana, so he'd never go into gimana, but they wouldn't have a sexual relationship, and Doyle would never be able to fuck ever again (though he could be fucked). Hmmn... And presumably Bodie is so noble that he'd never want to either fuck or be fucked ever again himself...? See, I'm not sure about that latter bit, even if he does love Doyle! If nothing else, it makes Bodie too noble, and Doyle too much of an unlikeable slut...

Come to think of it, Doyle describes himself happily as a "slut" (which has very negative connotations), but despite the fact that we're told Bodie also slept around - and managed to get a woman pregnant - he never describes himself as a "slut". That's reserved for Doyle. Which makes me think of the double-standards used for women and men (women are sluts if they sleep around, men are just "real men"), and hints uncomfortably at a "feminisation" of Doyle cf Bodie... Hmmnn...

I like the story, but this Bodie and Doyle are not my Bodie and Doyle. They could have any name in this story and I would read it, because it is very well written. Their behavior is so "No-Pros" for me. But nontheless I'm going to read the rest of the story because I want to know how it ends and if they could have good sex again. And I'm curious about the dog-thing. ;-)
Heee for intriguing you with the dog-thing! *g* I must admit that I wouldn't immediately have picked the story up if it hadn't been described as a B/D fic, but if I had I would have enjoyed it on its own terms. I suspect I wouldn't have liked Doyle much (whereas I tend to empathise more with canon-Doyle than with canon-Bodie), and I would still have been uncomfortable with the puppy-play thing, but... yeah. Hope you enjoy the rest, anyway! *g*

[macklingirl.livejournal.com]

Come to think of it, Doyle describes himself happily as a "slut" (which has very negative connotations), but despite the fact that we're told Bodie also slept around - and managed to get a woman pregnant - he never describes himself as a "slut". That's reserved for Doyle. Which makes me think of the double-standards used for women and men (women are sluts if they sleep around, men are just "real men"), and hints uncomfortably at a "feminisation" of Doyle cf Bodie... Hmmnn...
Maybe for the Hailins it is ok to sleep with as many men as possible if you are a qualified man. So it could be that beeing a slut for Doyle isn't the same as for Bodie. I always thought that Doyle is 100% queer and it disgusts him to think about a man and a woman having sex. For him it is normal to be queer, but unnormal to have sex with a woman. I think if Bodie would have told him he had sex with various men that would have been ok for Doyle.

I'll let you know how I feel about the puppy-play thing when I finished the story. But I think I'll need two or three more days.

[macklingirl.livejournal.com]

So, here I'm back. I've just finished today and I like the story even if that are not my Bodie and Doyle.

For me Doyle is a young man with a religious, schizoprenic mind who is in love with an alien man. I mean, he comes from the royal Hailin family who wears the masks of their gods, the Mabein. And he is one of the qualified adults which seems is not the standard for the Hailin adults. So he is one of the adults who could produce children. And his religion and biology causes the russma, so that he is addicted to Bodie. But for Doyle it is a shock to hear that human men can get a girl pregnant and can have sex with as many people as they want because Hailin can't, because if the are pair-bonded, they can only have sex with one person. In the Hailin way of thinking only animals can make children without beeing pair-bondec. So if Bodie can sleep with as many people as he likes and can get every girl pregnant and say that he loves Doyle, he must be an animal.

I think this is the main reason for Doyle to feel so sad when he discovered that Bodie can have something he can't. And I think he is very unsecure about himself. He had to do something he never wanted to do. He had to wear one of the Mabein-masks. And so he has to identify himself with Udom Kol, the god of life. And I think that is the moment his schizophrenia breaks free and he started hearing the Mabeins voices.

His family don't have the problem with Bodie because they are not in Doyles situation. Malun, Turon and West are not qualified, so it is easy for them to be good friend with Bodie. Doyles sister Ferros, who is qualified, has many problems with the idea of sex between Bodie and Doyle. So yes, I think it is normal for Malun, Turon and West to accept Bodie.

Doyle is deeply in love with Bodie, even if the Hailin don't know this term. And that is the reason why it is so difficult for him before he discovered the only way to shut the Mabein up. He must become an animal and what would be the best animal than a soragon? Because the Mabein are not interested in animals and they won't notice what they do. And because he knows that they can't play this game for to long he comes with an other story, the story of the "changeling". Because if he is no Hailin the Mabein don't have acces to his mind.

I think it is a good idea and a good story because it shows the up and down in the partnership between a man with a twisted mind and a man who is fallen in love.

But I must admit, I had problems with the days and the weeks. :-)

[merentha13.livejournal.com]

Sorry I'm late! I found out this weekend that my daughter is pregnant! Her first and our first grandchild. I spent the weekend out of town visiting.

So to the story. First let me say that I love the way HR writes - her plotting, descriptions that just pull emotion from the reader, angst, action etc. But, I did not like this story.

Everything below is my opinion - and I've been wrong before *g*

My Bodie and Doyle did not exist in this story - not even a little bit. I was especially unhappy with HR's treatment of Doyle. Even with all he was suffering due to his biology and the ensuing angst - he was still very unlikable. And Bodie was more patient and understanding than in canon - even though it is Doyle and Doyle's beliefs he's dealing with.

I agree with byslantedlight that this was a re-make, rather than a new story. There was a spot in "Cook" where Bodie wonders what would have happened if the man from the Foreign Office and he had gotten together earlier - and I guess this is Bodie's answer.

It was slow in some places - weren't there three paragraphs explaining the steps for Bodie to mail his letter to Cowley?

And I didn't like the whole last part - Doyle acting as Bodie's pet. Canon Doyle is too strong, has too much pride to allow himself to become a "soragon" for Bodie. That bit really is the main reason I didn't enjoy the story.

That said - it was well written. And it was very clear that it was a labor of love for the author. If these were "original" characters, rather than the lads, I would have possibly enjoyed it more.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Also sorry for being late to write back!

I found out this weekend that my daughter is pregnant! Her first and our first grandchild. I spent the weekend out of town visiting.
Oh - congratulations, granny! *g* Best wish to all!

So to the story. First let me say that I love the way HR writes - her plotting, descriptions that just pull emotion from the reader, angst, action etc. But, I did not like this story. Everything below is my opinion - and I've been wrong before *g*
Hey, the whole idea of a discussion is to have opinions, and different opinions, and think about the way other people see things! That said, i do agree with you about loving the way HR writes... *g*

My Bodie and Doyle did not exist in this story - not even a little bit. I was especially unhappy with HR's treatment of Doyle. Even with all he was suffering due to his biology and the ensuing angst - he was still very unlikable. And Bodie was more patient and understanding than in canon - even though it is Doyle and Doyle's beliefs he's dealing with.
I've got to admit, that's rather what I saw too. I caught glimpses of our lads, Doyle's rebellious streak, for instance, but it was rather covered up by various things that did seem to make him unlikeable, and effectively smothered by them...

I agree with byslantedlight that this was a re-make, rather than a new story. There was a spot in "Cook" where Bodie wonders what would have happened if the man from the Foreign Office and he had gotten together earlier - and I guess this is Bodie's answer.
Well, and I think HR describes it that way too - it's an alternative version rather than a sequel or something entirely independent, so I can't take any credit there! *g*

It was slow in some places - weren't there three paragraphs explaining the steps for Bodie to mail his letter to Cowley?
Oh, maybe... I'm not sure I noticed how much detail specific things were described in, as that there was alot of (more than in TCatW?) explanation/description of things Bodie had to deal with in the new culture. Which are sometimes relevant and interesting, but I must admit also thinking that the letter-mailing thing dragged a bit - or not necessarily dragged, but with so much description I expected it to have more significance in the story, and to be more of a plot point, somehow, but then it wasn't.

And I didn't like the whole last part - Doyle acting as Bodie's pet. Canon Doyle is too strong, has too much pride to allow himself to become a "soragon" for Bodie. That bit really is the main reason I didn't enjoy the story.
No, I couldn't go with that either, it just didn't ring true to me as something that Doyle (or Bodie, for that matter) would do.

That said - it was well written. And it was very clear that it was a labor of love for the author. If these were "original" characters, rather than the lads, I would have possibly enjoyed it more.
If I'd known this was by HR and it was an original story I would have read it - and yeah, probably enjoyed it more, cos I wouldn't have been thinking about so many things that didn't like B/D to me. I'm not sorry I read it - but I'll always love TCatW!

[merentha13.livejournal.com]

Another thing that I thought might have more significance - there was mention that Bodie might have been set up - by Cowley and/or the Hailin, and there was no follow up on that. That story line might have provided some more action and angst.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, I'd forgotten about Bodie wondering whether he'd been set up, that would have been interesting to find out more about (though I suppose it would be difficult in practical terms for Bodie to find out more). It sounded in this fic, though, that there were closer links between the Hailin and Earth, and I kept expecting Cowley to show up on the next ship or something - I was quite sorry he only sent a letter in the end (though I suppose he couldn't really be spared... *g*)

HR did describe ABaaSV as "with less angst" than TCatW, so I'm guessing that was a deliberate decision on her part. I think I remember various people saying that they did find TCatW very angsty, with the lads torn apart for such a part of the novel, so perhaps that's why it feels a bit as though things are repeatedly resolved quite quickly in ABaaSV.

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

I've barely started the story. I'm where Bodie tops Doyle. So far, I can see them as Bodie and Doyle, but from what others have written it sounds as if that's going to change.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I'll be interested to know what you think when you get to the end! Did your view change, or was it still your B/D?!

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

I thought I could finish the story in time, but got distracted by RL and have to admit that the story is dragging a bit for me. I find myself taking breaks, and it annoys me a little how perfect Bodie is especially in comparison to Ray.
Bodie is sooo accepting of everything. Not a flash of temper or much doubt about anything. Everyone adores him, he learns the language at amazing speed and always knows what to say at the right time. I only made it to about 30%, so things may change, but I'm not sure I'll make it all the way through.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I must admit to being a bit annoyed by Bodie's perfection, and conversely how often some quite unpleasant faults are described for Doyle. I liked HR's writing enough to continue (as ever), but I kept hoping that would pick up somehow - Bodie would have some difficulty, or would realise he's been given a poor impression of Doyle...

Sorry I've been delayed replying - how are you getting on with it now?

[milomaus.livejournal.com]

I wanna say so much, but rl.... *whines*

I read the cook, and I started on the balcony. I won't finish it.

I really like the other characters, but these are not my lads, there is too much stuff described in detail without adding to the story and I just can't picture the whole family not minding, but Ray acting up like that.

And I never thought I'd say this about any story, but there is too much sex.

I really liked the cook, and I was fascinated about a rewrite, but see above.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Rl is definitely worth whining about sometimes!

Sorry to hear you won't finish ABaaSV, though I do rather agree with what you say about the lads - and yeah, maybe even the sex! Although it's not the sex itself that I don't like (*g*), more... it's circumstances, I think? It so often feels like it's Bodie using it to deal with Doyle in some way, rather than them being equal and in love.

Glad to hear you liked TCatW though - it's one of my favourite Pros stories. I'm rather sorry that ABaaSV wasn't a sequel, where we found out more about how Bodie was getting on with the world, and maybe how the world was getting on with the existence of Doyle's planet. And the new coffee empire. And what Cowley was doing about it all... *g*

[paris7am.livejournal.com]

I am years late, but oh well. Thank you for the excellent intro, BSL, and for the clear way you've laid out your thoughts - it has really helped me to organize my own. And I am grateful for all the commenters' thoughts - it is so good to know you're not alone when you finish something like BVS!

I adore HR's writing - always always, even when it makes me uncomfortable. She can take me to places I would never choose to go, and does! And I am happy about it. I loved CAW, and have read it a number of times... It hurts so good, you know? The world building, the suspense, the crazy unimaginable block between them! So, I was thrilled about BVS, and started off with great pleasure.

It is fascinating to see how the two diverge from the same place. How having read the one influenced my reactions in the other. I actually was relieved when HR would "deal with" one of the dreaded issues - wow, so mature, taken care of, don't need to be on tenterhooks about *that* anymore, phew! - and then I would start wondering what would be next? Where would it go, if these were not the cruxes?

I was really enjoying and savoring it almost the whole way! When B finds D masturbating to Hailing porn on the couch, it hurt crazily. I haven't felt that much pain over a story in ages! I wept. But then, things kind of fell apart for me. I am not sure exactly why, either.

I don't think the characterizations of b and d really bothered me so much? I can understand exactly why they are wrong for others, but I seem to do that stretch of my web out and it meets this one's stretch. I didn't see D being so unattractive! I see him as B sees him. He's immensely attractive, accomplished, expert. The best! The most desirable. A Bakkel!! THE most Bakkel of the Bakkels! His cock is the ideal of all cocks! Even with his perfectionism, no one can resist him! Maybe I do read into the character - I think I blend the CAW and BVS characters together? Even though I wanted to shake him and tell at him sometimes, I never felt he was less than B, or unlikeable. He is an alien! I can see the interpretation of the Mabein being a mental illness, but I just read it as is... that they really were tormenting him. I also didn't see B as ooc. For me, his magnetic north is Ray, plain and simple. It doesn't seem such a stretch to me. And again, I didn't see Ray in a negative light either.

I guess that after the big heartbreak run away to the Moors, I kept thinking something would break it open and fix it... There were really great build ups, but they never quite got there. I love how BSL described it as waves almost reaching a sandcastle... That was perfect! The illness - really great potential. The party, even, with all the buildup. But whatever my heart was longing for never came.

Part, I think, of my problem, was reading it on ao3 - I had no clue how long it was - was this the last chapter? Or not? First I just wanted it to go on and on, but then, as shocking as it was for me, I found I didn't. :( When the dog scenario arrived, it kind of killed it for me. I could imagine D adopting so many roles in order to be with Bodie, but this one just broke apart for me. I don't think B would ever even agree to D doing that! Even the B in that universe. Facing off with other wild dogs? Carrying sticks? Not.
(Part 1 of 2)

[paris7am.livejournal.com]

(Part 2 of 2, so long winded, sorry!)
The playacting, believing bit - I really couldn't quite buy it. Like the story in the holds - I found myself thinking like B, that D wasn't truly thinking this was happening? And yes, for all the detail of reasons and rationales for everything, it still didn't work for my heart. The way I understand it, Ray, as a qualified Hailin, who is bonded to Bodie, could still have sex with other people. Maybe I misunderstood, but as far as I can tell, the only hindrance was the Mana - with that, he could masturbate, have sex, whatever, with whomever. Not that he wanted to, but he could. I thought that was part of the dumut issue, too, that sex was possible and you didn't want it to happen, so you put a lock on it.

But with all the open attitudes to sex in their culture, with the family's acceptance (even though it's a good point that the forgiving ones were all unqualified), with Ray's past sex life, everything combined made it so hard to swallow the problem. I understand, it's a plot... But what about the whole dry-hump thing mentioned here - why was that ok? Why not just use condoms? Get a vasectomy? Geez Louise!

I found it ironic that they accepted the changeling solution in the end - it makes no sense to me that Ray had to believe he was an animal in order to reach that point. It should have been number 1 on the list - the genetic mutation/difference thing! I apologize- I am still very emotional about it, and reactionary!

What else. There were a million points flying around my head that I wanted to say, and now they've flown away...

After the incredible beginning, the sex you'd give your life up for, it seems to get worse and worse. For every step forward, slip back three months. Instead of sex, your clothes hanging next to each other in the closet are exciting. By the time of the dog, their sex wasn't even sexy to me anymore... As B saw, it would be better to be able to talk to D for ten minutes than have sex all weekend with a mute dog... By the time of the Sergeant playacting, I was not able to buy into it. For some reason, at that point, my imagination inserted the LC in the Ripper show, rather than the Bodie LC... So they finally have all the sex, but it isn't even important anymore, to them or to me. Which makes me really sad.

Sorry for this very long reaction! I'm still kind of in shock, and probably will be, for some time! I am very thankful that HR wrote these, and there is no question that she is masterful! Extremely good. Ye gads - the music, the educational system, the cooking, the architecture, the fashion, the calendar, the engineering, the medicine, the trillion details... I'm thinking with her created vocabulary, I'm lost in that universe, I'm feeling the rhythms of that world, I'm visioning B&D crazily in love with each other there on their balcony...