A Reminder about the Comm and what Discussion is..

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Just before I announce this week's story for discussion, comments to last week's suggest that a few reminders about what ci5hq and the Reading Room are might be useful.

Here's what the comm's User Info page says, written when it was first set up in 2006 (not by me, by the way, though I was involved):
"CI5 Headquarters is a slash-oriented (but gen/het friendly) rec, discussion and news community for The Professionals. Whether it's a rec for an online or zine story, an essay on anything Pros-related, or news about the actors or the show itself, we want to see it here.

"Since CI5 Headquarters is a space for free and open discussion about all things related to our favourite lads for everyone, whether they have their own Live Journal or not, membership of the community is open, with posting and commenting allowed by non-members. We also encourage commenting by those without LJs, though they can't create an initial post to the community. (That's an LJ limitation, BTW, not one of ours.) If you don't have an LJ, but have a great idea for a post, contact one of the moderators and we'll be happy to post it for you. In keeping with the (largely) unspoken etiquette of fandom, we do also ask that no one cross-posts, copies or quotes anything posted to the community, without the express, preferably written permission of the person who posted it.

"Rules
In keeping with the laid back views of your moderators, we don't want to have hard and fast rules. We do, however, have a few suggestions:
Flames are bad. While you may not agree with everything you read on ci5hq, please show respect for the opinions of other posters and commenters, and keep discussion civil.
Posts and comments should be about some aspect of Pros."

From the blurb on the Sticky Post to the comm about the Reading Room (this was written by me):
"The Reading Room began way back in 2009, and despite the odd pause or two it's still running. Every Thursday we settle in for to chat about a Pros story that's been arranged in advanced, led by a volunteer making the initial post. Everyone's welcome to join in - read the story, read the review, and come and let us know what you think!"

I'm really pleased to say that every post and comment in the Reading Room (including last week's) has followed the comm's request for respect and courtesy and thoughtfulness, just as I'd expect from Pros readers! People don't always agree with each other, but they've always done this in the spirit of discussion - which is the whole point of it.

Discussions are fun and interesting and sometimes (quite often, in Pros, it seems) people learn from them. We have them because we have opinions about things, and we want to hear what other people's opinions are, and to work out how those opinions match and gel - or not. We don't all have the same opinions, and a discussion where people are only expected to express certain opinions isn't a discussion.

There are other forums for feedback to authors, and as an author myself I know it's lovely to receive comments on those forums - please do go forth and comment! *g* But that's not what the Reading Room is. It's a place for readers to talk about things. If authors want to join in, then that's absolutely encouraged - but they (we as authors) need to bear in mind that not everyone is going to like or agree with everything we've written - and the Reading Room is a place where you might find some of those dissenting opinions. The only thing we ask about negative comments or critique is that it's constructive in that a reason is given for it. For example:

I don't like that story, it's stupid. - not really okay. As discussion it doesn't go anywhere, no one's going to learn from it, except about the commenter. Why do you think it's stupid?

I don't like that story, I couldn't understand why the characters acted the way they did. - is part of discussion. It gives people an opportunity to respond by saying "I agree, they didn't..." or I don't agree, I thought that..."

It can be hard to find out that other people don't like your story, or part of your story, or even a single specific word choice that you made. It can stab you to your heart, and hurt (again, personal experience *g*) - and this happens no matter how polite or thoughtful or carefully worded a comment is. Alot of professional authors (and actors, for that matter) have policies about not reading people's reviews of their work, or going to places where they might come across such reviews. I'd suggest that in fandom too, we need to decide as authors whether we personally feel up to reading people's honest opinions. We don't often see the critical side of honest opinions in feedback to stories, but that doesn't mean they're not out there, and that doesn't mean people don't have the right to express those opinions.

ci5hq, and the Reading Room feature, are places where readers are allowed to have opinions about stories and to express them. We ask people to be polite and thoughtful about it - and people are, and have been, and thank you for that.

Now - on to the next Reading Room...!

Comments

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

Truthfully, I wish my other fandoms had a place like this. One has something similar, but since most of the stories reviewed are gen, I haven't really gotten involved. So I love that Pros continues to have a forum where we can discuss the stories, where we have an actual conversation. It's probably one of the reasons Pros' "death" is often mentioned, but never realized.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I wonder how many fandoms do have this sort of forum...

It's interesting you should mention the gen - we've had more gen writers and stories involved at ci5hq in these most recent Reading Rooms. Jaicen usually writes gen, and 19 Cleveland St was her only slash story (apparently because her BB author wanted it); Hutchynstarsk writes gen; and recent commenters have also "come out" (*g*) as either preferring gen or not actually seeing slash in the eps (what?! *g*) I must admit I'm always a bit watchful where the two genres mix, because I know it's led to clashes in the past (not here, that I can remember, but in other forums). There's room for both, though people tend to have their preferences one way or another, and I'm hoping they'll continue to co-exist here at the comm!

I do wonder whether the move of some fandoms to Tumblr (and I know there's Pros there as well) and similar forums will mean that fandom discussion dries up even more - at first because of the format, and then because people are less aware that discussion can take place as well as squeeing over pics (as nice as that can be too *g*) Mind you, when I first found lj, the mod at Safehouse (not any of the current mods) had a rule that there should be no discussion there, and explained it when people asked by saying that discussion caused too many problems. It's one of the reasons CI5hq was set up in the first place. I personally think being scared of discussion is one of the most dangerous things in the world...

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

I've found that, for most fandoms, gen and slash don't mix well. I left an UNCLE Yahoo group because of some not very veiled disgust with slash. I got into that old discussion, you know the one, "explain to me why you like slash, I have friends who do but I don't understand it." Why the person doesn't just ask their friends is beyond me. Anyway, it got heated. When the mod apologized to me–off list!–that was sort of the final straw.

I can't stand Tumblr, at least when it comes to discussions. And, after awhile, I even got bored with scrolling through the pictures, so I haven't visited there in ages. I do so hope discussion continues on LJ. The traffic has certainly slowed, but not dried up completely.

[(Anonymous)]

Dear Reading Room. How do I make sure that my stories are NOT included for discussion in this group?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

If your stories are publically available, then you can't make sure they're not discussed - not just here, but anywhere. That involves the basic premise of people's freedom to talk about whatever they please, and I don't think anyone would either agree with, or want to be involved in, the idea of policing discussions to ensure that they don't involve stories or authors from some kind of list.

That said, If you email me as comm moderator (slantedlight at g mail dot com), if anyone does suggest one of your stories for discussion, I can let them know that you've said you prefer them not to be formally reviewed in the Reading Room. I certainly wouldn't tell them not to do so, but the people so far involved in the Reading Room discussions are all courteous, respectful and generally kind, and I imagine they would be happy to choose another story instead.

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

By contrast, I would have *loved* to see people pick one of my stories and discuss it in depth and honestly. I know full well that not everyone cares for them and would have found it fascinating to find their honest feelings about them. I think that's not going to happen now. And I am sad about that.

But: if we're going to start making lists, a list of quiet hopefuls would be nice, and we could say whether we would be happy to answer questions or promise not to comment until way later, or whatever.

I would really have liked to see someone say 'Cowley just wouldn't...' or 'That's totally not my understanding of CI5' about some of my more outré suggestions. But now, of course, by saying so, it will never happen. :(

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I remember you saying you'd love to have your stories discussed, and I must admit that because of that I nearly chose one of yours rather than Blue Figurine - but didn't at the last minute. I know exactly what you mean, cos I'd love to see what people really think about my stories too, and know their in-depth thoughts and reactions. The trouble is, when we're around as authors, when they know we're interested, with the best will in the world I don't think people will be properly honest in the way that we want them to be, because when someone's in front of you, unless you've worked yourself up to some kind of self-righteous frenzy about something (and that I have seen), the odds are that people are going to be kind instead.Which is good, but we want kind and honest!

I'm racking my brains though, trying to think of a way that we could work around it somehow. We could perhaps have an ML Mead Discussion With the Author Week/end? (Discussion With The Author might be a fun feature to have on the comm in general, maybe once a month - your could be the Inaugural Author!) Would you fancy trying something like that? We could go sooner rather than later even, since tomorrow's a Monday, and start off tomorrow for, say, a week (though realistically it might trail off when NyPagan's Reading Room starts)?

Let's see... format... I could announce the Discussion with an Author series, to be held once a month, and that you'd volunteered to be the first author... I'd add a list of your stories with links, and... *thinks*... there could be individual comment threads for each story, so if people have read some but not others they could join in discussion in that comment thread... We'd have to emphasise that you're interested in what people think about stories that didn't work for them too... And of course I can jump in and mod-initiate such discussion a bit (though I must admit that I'm wary of being seen as the bad guy in this situation - well it's always the last thing I'd want to be seen as, but... well, you know. *g*)

Does that make any sense? Sound do-able? Sound like something you'd like to have a go at?

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

That is a very lovely offer. Could I think about it a little? As you have said, once people *know* I'm likely to loiter (palely?), they are more likely to worry that actually, I will brood or take offence! But the format sounds as though it should work. My only concern is then failing to answer - as you know, I have some health issues and I would hate people to go to all the trouble and then get single-sentence replies because I am half asleep!

I shall give up attempting to reply to All The LJ Posts and actually try to sleep now, and then reply tomorrow, which should give me an indicator of tiredness and touchscreen tapping rejuvenation! Thank you!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Rejuvenating sleep is a good thing! Of course you can think about it (!) - just let me know if you fancy it, and we can set it up whenever.

I would hate people to go to all the trouble and then get single-sentence replies because I am half asleep!
I think I could work on the set-up so that there weren't specific author-based expectations of discussion. Perhaps "The Dear Author Discussions" might be a better title - partly to keep the focus on the "discussion" side of things, rather than the idea that it's a question-and-answer session, with the idea that the author will pop in where and when she can (if only to note her ongoing interest in particular threads, for instance, without having to reply personally to every single comment - even when someone's well that's quite a big task.

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Slightly more alert now, phew; and yes, I'd like to give this a go, I think. Helpfully, I do have a masterlist at the top of my LJ, and I do have remarks about welcoming concrit both there and in my profile; and I have deliberately solicited criticism before, in respect of Blown.

Yes, I'm much more interested in knowing what people think than in persuading them of anything. I don't deliberately write to irritate people, either. Let's try it!

Curious to known which you might have picked, now, too!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Nice to hear you sounding refreshed!

While we both seem to be online at once (*g*) - when would you like to start/me to post? Today, or...? I'm just about to take a lunch break, so I'll have a think about wording - do you want to let me know if there's anything in particular you'd like me to say? (Presuming you want me to make the post for people to comment to, rather than you doing it?)

ETA - actually not sure what I would have picked, I'd've done some re-reading to choose one!

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Well, how about broaching it asap, and seeing if people want to do it, and I'll have a think about whether there is anything I should add? One question, I imagine, is, do people want me looking at in-progress conversations at all, or whether I should hold off until people have got into the spirit of it!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Ah, I was going to leap right into it rather than broaching it as a "do-you-want-to", cos again I suspect people will see your name and say yes, of course! Which is nice, obviously, but is really just delaying, cos I'm pretty sure it'll be automatic. *g*

My thought was that I'd go straight in and make the post describing the general idea, and make each comment thread for the individual stories, and then people would be able to choose which one they wanted to comment on/discuss...

...how about we combine the two? I could do an announcement post about it, say that you're the first author up, that the master post would be made [whenever] and ask in a poll (for ease of reading) whether people would like the author to jump right in or to hold off until... *random suggestion*... there were three or more comments/discussions in a story thread.

That would give you time to think of anything to add to the actual post, too..?

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Okey-doke, got you. Yes, go for it!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Rightio - will do announcement post tonight, hopefully sooner rather than later (though annoyingly I do have to fit in work too, and I've already procrastinated by trying to hunt down Pros fics that I know I had...