Reading Room XVI: Carnal Interests by Madelein Lee - First in the Carnal Interests Trilogy

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

Title: Carnal Interests
Author: Madelein Lee
Pairing: Bodie/Doyle
Link to story: Carnal Interests

The story begins after the episode, "Need to Know," and while I can't say that I totally agree with the author's take on Cowley, I can easily see how she comes to the conclusions that she does. So I've always been able to enjoy these three stories, even if it isn't exactly how I see the three men. So without further ado,

Bodie and Doyle have only been lovers for a short time. Doyle is pushing for a committed relationship, but Bodie is fighting him all the way, afraid of being hurt when the affair, in his mind, inevitably ends. But for now, he's looking forward to going to Ray's once their reports are done.

Into this unsettled situation, steps Cowley. He's invited Bodie—and only Bodie—to his place for dinner the following night. When Bodie tells him about it, Doyle is not pleased. He'd wondered at their boss's interest in Bodie, especially having witnessed, granted, through gas-bleared eyes, Cowley caressing Bodie's face. He'd thought it was only him seeing homosexual overtones in everything ever since he'd taken up with Bodie, but now he isn't so sure.

He mulls it over the next morning while Bodie gets ready. He starts remembering things, like how much Cowley lets Bodie get away with, and how easily he can make his boss laugh. And Bodie telling him that Cowley had stopped him from following Ray after the Coogan case. Unimportant when taken alone, but added up, they begin to form a picture. Doyle is convinced that Cowley wants Bodie, and he's determined to fight for what is his.

The next evening, Cowley does seem to be advancing his agenda. He tells Bodie that he's considering retiring and turning over the reins of CI5 to Doyle. To Bodie, he offers a job as his assistant, since he "knows he couldn't be idle." At the same time, he uses guilt to keep Bodie from influencing Doyle to refuse the position with CI5. Or from telling Doyle of their conversation.

Of course, the first thing Bodie does is just that. Doyle is furious, especially since he knows exactly what Cowley is trying to do. Somewhat naively, Bodie doesn't. He's taken Cowley at his words.

But at least for now, it's given Doyle the upper hand. Bodie's fear of impending loss brings down the last of his barriers. He gives Doyle what Doyle has long wanted, a deeper physical relationship. But instead of Doyle giving himself to Bodie, Bodie allows himself to be fucked.

The next morning, Doyle confronts Cowley. Not only does he refuse the job, but he lets Cowley know that they know that he knows about them. But Doyle is still cautious. He lets Cowley thing that he and Bodie are only having it off to work off adrenaline. The last thing he wants Cowley to know is that he loves Bodie, or that he's sure that Bodie loves him.

Doyle leaves the office with his next assignment, setting up house keeping with a female copper from Hong Kong. The battle is on.


As to the questions:

1. Given all the examples of Cowley's behavior toward Bodie, can you blame Doyle for coming to the conclusion that he does regarding Cowley's motives? Or can you think of another reason for Cowley's canonical actions?

2. Do you think it plausible that Bodie doesn't know that Cowley wants him?

3. Do you think Cowley already believed them lovers, or that he only "listened" to McKay's report, not wanting to believe it?

4. And, of course, did you enjoy the story?

Comments

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

I just came by to say that the story isn't my cup of tea, and that I won't read it.

It's not only that I've read the end first, and I didn't liked the last chapters.
It's more because of Cowley, I think.
He is a hard man, and sometimes cruel when he needs to be. But generally I believe him fair and honourable.
Anyway I don't like those triple thinking stories at all.

Then there is the reference to the episodes. Somehow I've learned to dislike to be shown new (and for me wrong) explanations of
the show I love(Kate McLean for example).

But I'm very curious what others may say!

Thank you for the rec!

- and I really like your icon! :-)

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

I tend to see Cowley the same way you do, but I can be suspend belief if a story is good enough—which is why I love Kate McLean's work. :-) And maybe part of that is that I don't have much invested in the Cowley character. He's there, but I feel as much for Murphy... which isn't much. *g*

And I love that icon, too!

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

"—which is why I love Kate McLean's work."
Yeah! Excellent writing, and you never can stop reading - but for example in 'Yellow Brick Road' she disturbs some beloved scenes from the episodes!

"...I don't have much invested in the Cowley character. He's there, but I feel as much for Murphy... which isn't much."
I think Cowley is much more than Murphy(yawn...)! But he should be the omniscient, challenging and caring over-father, not a selfish manipulator. ;-)

[franciskerst.livejournal.com]

Cowley is at the heart of CI5 and so he's at the heart of the show: his character is as important as Bodie and Doyle taken together. What the sense or the interest of a partnership if their mission and professional duty doesn't come first?

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

"Cowley is at the heart of CI5..."
He is!

"...and so he's at the heart of the show: his character is as important as Bodie and Doyle taken together"
Everybody loves the show for different reasons! And certainly for me it's a Bodie and Doyle show, with Cowley as a very strong minor character. If he would have been replaced then I would have been not more than a bit sad..

"What the sense or the interest of a partnership if their mission and professional duty doesn't come first?"
If you mean their job with 'duty' then I agree that they are what the job makes of them. The job is important for them. And I love them dangerous and tough.

But if you mean more 'obligation', then I must say, that their professional duty is not worth a penny for me!
I prefer stories where they put their partnership/love above Cowley, CI5 and duty, to those where they obey like little puppies! Surely!

[franciskerst.livejournal.com]

I don't see what's the distinction you're making between job duty and other obligations (which ones?). Of course the job comes first for this kind of men; besides it's a mission more than a job (they're not truck-drivers or accountants): in a way they are at war. And Cowley is their commanding officer; that's why he's part of the partnership itself. Whatever they do, he's involved. I like their interaction and their very special relationship (something I'm looking for in other buddy shows like MFU) but if they're not taken in the more general background of CI5 and the service of a higher good (sorry for the grandiloquence), it would reduce that relationship to a trite love story, which is of little interest to me. (Seems I have a more male than female point of view regarding love and the hierarchy of interests).

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

I don't see them on par with soldier, more like cops, and cops do have personal lives. Of course, so do soldiers, even professional ones.

You do see their story very differently than I do, mainly because I don't see anything trite about a love story. I'm not talking about hearts and flowers, I'm talking about a deep and abiding love between two people. That they hold each others' lives in their hands only adds to the drama, but their love doesn't detract from it. Not for me, anyway. :-)

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

For me neither!

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

"Of course the job comes first for this kind of men; besides it's a mission more than a job (they're not truck-drivers or accountants): in a way they are at war.
I feel sorry for everbody who lives that way! Because if they lose it - and it happens! - there is nothing left but a bullet.
Bodie and Doyle deserve a deep partnership without a Cowley between them!
And in my universe even Cowley isn't reluctant to start some private life - if it bites him in the nose... ;-)

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

Cowley is at the heart of CI5 and so he's at the heart of the show: his character is as important as Bodie and Doyle taken together.

I know Cowley is an important character on the show, though I don't think I'd go so far as to say he's as important as Bodie and Doyle combined. What I meant is that to me he's not very important.

What the sense or the interest of a partnership if their mission and professional duty doesn't come first?

Mm, no, I don't believe duty goes that far. Yes, they have an obligation to the job, but their personal lives are more important. I'd never give up love for a job.

[franciskerst.livejournal.com]

they have an obligation to the job, but their personal lives are more important. I'd never give up love for a job.

That's the core of the matter: people in that range of activity have no personal life, as in a war (I realise I've answered in a previous comment): Is love above all and everything? What is love? Long ago, I elaborated my own definition of (sexual) love: self-delusion, common greed, mutual abuse. Of course, it's not very idealistic! But so true...

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

Wow, yes, very definitely a different outlook. Love can be wonderful and long lasting, especially when you go into it with your eyes wide open, with no deceit between the two involved, but with a common goal and mutual respect. Sexual passion rarely lasts through the years, which is why two people need something else that binds them together. It may be rare, but it does exist. In my mind, Bodie and Doyle have that.

[franciskerst.livejournal.com]

Note I was speaking of sexual love, not of friendship : if true friendship could be combined with true love (involving "carnal interest"), it would be different; but I feel doubtful. Anyway we're getting wayward: my point was if Cowley's higher morality (and thus CI5's legitimacy) is ruined or even compromised, then there's nothing left of the show. A mere love story between two partners is not enough for me. I keep on reading (and writing) slash though...

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

Yeah! Excellent writing, and you never can stop reading - but for example in 'Yellow Brick Road' she disturbs some beloved scenes from the episodes!

Yes, of all her stories, that's the one I have the most trouble with.


I think Cowley is much more than Murphy(yawn...)! But he should be the omniscient, challenging and caring over-father, not a selfish manipulator. ;-)

Oh, yes, in the show Cowley is more important. I meant to me he not.

[franciskerst.livejournal.com]

I of course take all those elements as clues of Cowley's very special (carnal or not or, rather, done in full awareness or not) interest for Bodie but unlike the author and most of the readers, I see the B/C hypothetical relationship as perfectly acceptable and more thrilling than a partnership turned to romantic love (I don't like romance in general and find friendship both more interesting and more moving; for me the B/C relation is not a romance).

I'm quite willing to read the story but only if Cowley is shown as morally irreproachable.

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

I'm all for romance, just not mush. And I see friendship between Bodie and Doyle, too. :-)

Um, and not to spoil the stories for anyone, but I'd have to say that you probably wouldn't like them much.

[franciskerst.livejournal.com]

you probably wouldn't like them much

Of this I had little doubt! I was being provocative (I knew the story's orientation already). But how far does Cowley's moral transgression go? Are they in any way understandable or justifiable? (I hated "The Pillory" long before I had any interest in the B/C pairing, and "hate" is an understatement)

I am more and more unable to reconcile in my mind friendship with sexual love (at least when the friendship comes first and makes the bond in a partnership of equals); I like the rivalry and abrasiveness in the interactions between Bodie and Doyle: I want them strong, independent, competitive, tough (even towards each other), action driven and not introspective or not more than we see them in a few eps, very male to sum it up, with all the shortcomings and testosterone-induced behaviours that women dislike in men.

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

<>Of this I had little doubt! I was being provocative (I knew the story's orientation already). But how far does Cowley's moral transgression go? Are they in any way understandable or justifiable?

I imagine most moral transgressions are neither understandable or justifiable. The person is going after what they want and is willing to do just about anything to get it. That's not uncommon.

(I hated "The Pillory" long before I had any interest in the B/C pairing, and "hate" is an understatement)

Same here.

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

I'm just going to speak up for The Pillory. I really liked it!

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

I may be wrong, but I think you're in a very small minority. But IDIC, I suppose. :-)

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

I'd be really interested to know how the proportions fall. I tend to think that if I like something, it's a majority taste. And then I pause and think, "No, I do not think that putting 'Sunshine' in your top ten is a majority taste"...

And yes, diversity is good!

[shooting2kill.livejournal.com]

I know I read this story a long time ago and didn't read it again because the emphasis on Cowley liking Bodie in a romantic/sexual way didn't interest me, but your review and the questions posed make me think that I must read this again and so it's going on my growing list of stories to read (again!).

Thanks, an interesting review.

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

I can read a story where Cowley likes Bodie that way, as long as it's not mutual. That, I couldn't take (shudder.) *g* But I always find it interesting to see how a writer handles that particular scenario because it isn't one that a lot a people of fond of.

And, yeah, don't we all have these pesky list of stories that seem to get forever longer?

Glad you found the review interesting enough that you're willing to give the story another chance.

[golden-bastet.livejournal.com]

I'd never read this before, and I'm finding it really intriguing.

People may be letting themselves trip over the B/C, but - there's a lot of layers here.

Cowley is using triple think.

Doyle is using triple think (okay, maybe he's at double think so far, but I've gotten to the second story).

Cowley and Doyle are using triple think against each other.

So is Cowley offering Doyle his position really that heinous? Because the man is doing a heck of a job proving that he could do quite well as comptroller. Maybe this is the way he convinces Doyle, and brings out the fight in him.

So all of Cowley's maneuvering, while possibly motivated by true feelings, also serves to help him move the chess pieces the way he wants. I'm not sure he'd be that upset if he didn't get Bodie in the end, as long as he set up CI5 the way he thought it should be (i.e., with Doyle at the helm).

It's a smidgeon out of character, and Bodie's a bit over-clueless, but still pretty interesting for all that.

[franciskerst.livejournal.com]

Your interpretation makes me feel like reading a story I was ready to dismiss automatically, on the basis of its premises. But I still regret that Cowley didn't win on both aims.

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

I'd never read this before, and I'm finding it really intriguing.
People may be letting themselves trip over the B/C, but - there's a lot of layers here.
Cowley is using triple think.
Doyle is using triple think (okay, maybe he's at double think so far, but I've gotten to the second story).
Cowley and Doyle are using triple think against each other.

Exactly. And, in that part at least, I think the characters are staying in character.

So is Cowley offering Doyle his position really that heinous? Because the man is doing a heck of a job proving that he could do quite well as comptroller. Maybe this is the way he convinces Doyle, and brings out the fight in him.

If Cowley's motives were pure, then, yes, offering Doyle the position would be a good thing.

It's a smidgeon out of character, and Bodie's a bit over-clueless, but still pretty interesting for all that.

Yes, that part I do find out of character; I tend to see Bodie as being more savvy than that. But it's something I can live with in this story.

It's odd, but Pros is about the only of my fandoms that I can set aside strict character interpretation when it comes to how I see them. Maybe it's because of stories like these that I really like, disregarding any arguments I may have about how the characters are portrayed.

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

I love this sequence of stories, and have done since I came across them. I think it's ingenious, and I love the explanation of the 'message' from McKay. I like Doyle's brooding and double-thinking and triple-thinking.

Questions. Hmm. Doyle's conclusions. I think it is reasonable to suspect 'Cowley is trying to split us up' when thinking about some of the incidents, particularly the end of Fall Girl and The Rack. 'Cowley is trying to split us up because he wants Bodie', though, well, it wouldn't occur to me, I have to say. Well, not until I had seen that near-caress in Need To Know, perhaps! However, Doyle has a bias: "In fact he found it too easy to believe everyone else felt as he did about his partner". So I think that definitely justifies Doyle's train of thought.

Plausibility of Bodie not knowing that Cowley wants him: I have no problem with this at all. Okay, the dinner is an unusual suggestion, but the conversation justifies it. As far as he knows, Cowley is proposing the new arrangements for the benefit of all concerned. It's not clear in the story whether this is Bodie's (or Doyle's) first same-sex relationship, but if it is, then presumably Bodie is not - or has not been - in the habit of looking for signs that other men are interested in him, so why would he start by noticing Cowley?

Question 3: do you mean, Cowley already believed them lovers before McKay's report, or Cowley didn't believe the report and only believed it when Doyle told him? I think he will have believed McKay, yes. Whether he suspected beforehand, I don't know. Hmm...

Did I enjoy it? Oh, yes, very much. I like the weaving in of episodes, and I like the passion between them. Yummy! Of course, now I know that there are sequels, and what happens in them, but I remember reading this for the first time and really liking it and thinking, "What a brilliant ending". It's definitely a story where you have to have seen the episodes to make sense of the ending, though. I don't think you could ask someone who is a fairly casual fan or from another fandom altogether to read it and understand everything in it, and the ending is a great example: we know that the new assignment is one from an episode, and so we know that Esther is not going to stick around. I really like that ending, actually, it sews the story back into place beautifully.

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

Questions. Hmm. Doyle's conclusions. I think it is reasonable to suspect 'Cowley is trying to split us up' when thinking about some of the incidents, particularly the end of Fall Girl and The Rack. 'Cowley is trying to split us up because he wants Bodie', though, well, it wouldn't occur to me, I have to say. Well, not until I had seen that near-caress in Need To Know, perhaps! However, Doyle has a bias: "In fact he found it too easy to believe everyone else felt as he did about his partner". So I think that definitely justifies Doyle's train of thought.

I think, especially here, the author uses scenes from the episodes with great effect. And I like those types of stories, anyway, where you get a back story that fills in the gaps left by the show.

Did I enjoy it? Oh, yes, very much. I like the weaving in of episodes, and I like the passion between them. Yummy! Of course, now I know that there are sequels, and what happens in them, but I remember reading this for the first time and really liking it and thinking, "What a brilliant ending". It's definitely a story where you have to have seen the episodes to make sense of the ending, though. I don't think you could ask someone who is a fairly casual fan or from another fandom altogether to read it and understand everything in it, and the ending is a great example: we know that the new assignment is one from an episode, and so we know that Esther is not going to stick around. I really like that ending, actually, it sews the story back into place beautifully.

I don't think I would have enjoyed it as well if there weren't a sequel, especially with Esther coming onto the scene. But I'm the type that does like stories to have a nice, tidy ending—even though, thinking about it, I don't always write that way.

[heliophile-oxon.livejournal.com]

Just a very quick comment (all I seem to be doing these days, dammit :-( ) to say that I agree Cowley's character and behaviour is something of an issue here. While I can buy a Cowley who bends and/or breaks any number of rules - including his own or anyone else's moral strictures - for the sake of CI5 or what he sees as his duty to the nation, it would take a lot to convince me of a Cowley who would do so for his own personal gain (in any sense of the word). Not because he wouldn't be vulnerable to loneliness/emotional or physical need/etc. but because I think he's very mentally disciplined and used to denying himself (except where it comes to whisky, perhaps). Cowley could behave as he does here - but it would take a different fic to convince me, and this one doesn't quite do it.

I see him as mortal and fallible, certainly, and probably very prone to a kind of arrogance, but never venal in any simple way. He'd have to convince himself it was the right thing to do, and he's a hard man to convince *g*

[franciskerst.livejournal.com]

Totally agreeing with you here.

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, in the "real" world (read, the series,) I most certainly wouldn't see Cowley behaving this way. But in the context of these stores, I can readily suspend belief.

Ankündigung zur Geschichten Besprechung am Sonntag

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