Reading Room XIV - Pros and the Supernatural - Incubus by Dee

[jessebee.livejournal.com]

First time de-lurking and posting in this comm, so hopefully I've not messed anything up!  I'm a tad early, I know, but it's Thursday in London, dang it.  So, without further ado:

Title:  Incubus
Author:  Dee
Pairing:  B/D
Link:  Incubus

I will confess right off: I both love and hate fanfic involving the supernatural. Love, because it's subject matter that has always fascinated me, and hate, as it's a genre that's frequently disappointing because it is so easy to write badly. Incubus, by Dee, falls (for me) somewhere in the middle.

The tale begins with Doyle lying alone in bed on a hot, sticky August night, trying to sleep and not succeeding. Finally he tries focusing on finding a calm center point within himself and stilling his thoughts. What he achieves, though, is not sleep, but rather disembodiment – astral projection.

Deciding that it must be just a dream – astral projection isn't real, after all – Doyle first examines his own body. Then, without much apparent conscious volition, he drifts out into the night, only to wind up – of course – in Bodie's flat. There he watches his sleeping partner wake abruptly, as though feeling Doyle's spirit gaze, then continues to watch as Bodie masturbates and falls back asleep.

Unsettled by all this, Doyle drifts home and wakes up from his dream – as he believes it to be – in his own bed. Looking at the clock, he sees an hour and a half has gone by. Resolutely, he tries again to get back to sleep.

The next day, after a long session with Macklin, he and Bodie go for a pint before heading home. In the pub, the image that keeps coming back to Doyle, to the point of distraction, is that of Bodie's face suffused with pleasure. Bodie picks up a girl and abandons Doyle rather abruptly. Doyle is more amused than irritated by this – it's Bodie, after all – and proceeds to finish both Bodie's ale and his own and heads home.

Unable to sleep yet again, Doyle resorts to the same technique and finds himself once again out of body and traveling to his partner's flat. There he watches Bodie's intended bedmate leave without coming across, watches Bodie get ready for bed and go to sleep. He knows he's being compulsive in observing his partner, and briefly wonders why. The urge to watch becomes an urge to touch, filling Doyle with a great longing, and suddenly he IS able to touch Bodie, and does.

Bodie wakes up, of course, and Doyle tells him that it is just a dream. Bodie seems to accept this and urges Doyle to carry on, pulling him into the bed. It is obvious to the reader that Bodie has no issues with this, has probably had male/male sex before and definitely wants to have it with Doyle. They do have sex and somewhere in the afterglow, Doyle passes out. He wakes up in his own bed, and is promptly violently ill.

And I'll stop here so as not to completely spoil anyone who's hasn't, and wants to, read the story. ;-)

Dee wrote a number of Pros stories in the mid to late 1990s, including Cold Hill's Side and the excellent Winning The Pools, as well as the long and well-done Twist Of Fate. Incubus was an early, if not perhaps the earliest, of her stories in this fandom, and it shows a bit.

First published in the zine OTHER TIMES AND PLACES IV, by OTP Press, 1993, this story could have done with a stronger editorial hand to cut down on some of the over-writing and help better determine its direction, as it's never quite sure whether it wants to be a discovery of paranormal abilities, a first-time romance, or a case story. While it's quite possible for all these threads to exist in harmony, this story is instead a somewhat uneasy melange, with the case the lads become involved in being the weakest of them. In fact, much if not all of the interrogation and case wrap-up scenes could be axed because – as flattering to Cowley as they are – they don't do a thing to advance the story overall.

Doyle seems a touch soft, more reacting to events than making them happen, and the author's tendency to “tell” rather than “show” robs the reader of some of the impact which those events have upon him. Bodie's reactions don't always quite track, particularly in his attitude to his partner during the day after he's had sex with astral-Doyle and the way in which he accepts/deals with Doyle's new ability.

Although the story starts out strong with Doyle's newly-discovered skill, it founders with that toward the end, the thrust becoming just a mere mild push, buried beneath the lads' discoveries of each other. I think that with some restructuring, particularly in when and where Doyle uses his ability to aid Bodie, this could have been a far more taut, satisfying story.

All that said, I still thoroughly enjoy this story every time I reread it; in fact, I count it as one of my regular guilty pleasures. Why?

First off, the premise: I just love love love the idea of either of the lads with a paranormal ability, one which he uses – in fear of discovery and at great cost to himself – to aid his partner.

Second, the emotional content: despite the annoyance of Doyle's “sudden onset gayness,” (explained as/blamed on a surfeit of Catholicism in his youth,) the emotional ties between the lads are rock-solid and very satisfyingly done, particularly on Bodie's part. The story is completely in Doyle's point-of-view, but the author does a fine job of showing the reader Bodie's deep feelings for Doyle through Doyle's eyes and perceptions. We are left in no doubt that for each of them, the other is of paramount importance.

Third, the writing: despite the tendency to over-explain, there are many passages that are quite evocative, such as the description of Bodie's night-time routine, and later on the things Doyle finds in Bodie's medicine cabinet! And some sections show a graceful, interesting use of words, such as this:

The room was quiet and still, save for the gentle sound of Bodie's breathing, and the far-off rush of traffic, a sound so omnipresent in the city that its absence would have caused notice. The shaft of light coming directly through the opening in the curtains fell across the man in the bed, diagonally, tracing a path from one hip up and across his body, throwing a nipple into relief before it leaped across the narrow space to illuminate a swath across one rounded bicep.

And this:

"C'mon. Be more comfortable in a bed, mate. That's it. Shift yourself." Doyle pulled and Bodie stood up, grumbling, disentangled himself from the blanket, and allowed himself to be towed into the bedroom. Once there, his complaints became somewhat more vociferous, but ceased as soon as he had been manoeuvred into the bed. With a final incoherent mumble, he sprawled himself over most of the mattress and subsided into slumber.

Doyle stood by the bed for a moment, surveying the problem with an analytic eye, then yawned, giving up on thought as a bad idea. He slid onto the scant area left to him, rolled up against his partner and fell asleep.

So, what say you, fellow readers? Can you buy Doyle's new ability and the way he handles it? Can you see Bodie reacting in the ways that he does? How would you rate this in terms of a paranormal story as opposed to a lads-get-together story, and does it succeed as either? How might you tackle this premise if you were inspired to try your hand at writing it?

Comments

[murphybabe]

Great review! And questions, goody-goody!

Firstly though, my reaction to this story. I hadn't read it before, and I really enjoyed it. I don't like AUs, I don't like the supernatural, and yet I liked this story. I agree about the writing and how it could potentially be tightened up, yet this will, for now, be one of my 'guilty pleasures' fics. I think what I liked was the development of the relationship between the lads and I was willing to push aside my difficulties with the plot, the paranormal and the other things that irritated me and just focus on Bodie and Doyle coming to a relationship.

I have to mention the thing that irritated me most, and you describe that beautifully as Doyle's “sudden onset gayness,” - AARRGGHHHHH! I never find this realistic. I was talking about something similar yesterday ('only-gay-for-you') and it never fails to annoy me. Having said that, I think that Doyle's first time was well written and I enjoyed that.

I loved the descriptive passages, and I thought the relationship between B & D was well-written. Sure, there are bits where I was busy suspending disbelief, for example I think Bodie's reaction the day after was a bit off, but on the whole I enjoyed the development of their relationship.

Your questions:
1) Can you buy Doyle's new ability and the way he handles it? No. No way. But - I don't believe in this ability and therefore I am very prejudiced in reading the story. If such a thing happened, I think Doyle would be far more freaked out about it.
2) Can you see Bodie reacting in the ways that he does? Bodie doesn't seem bothered by Doyle's ability at all. No, sorry - no sale here.
3) How would you rate this in terms of a paranormal story as opposed to a lads-get-together story, and does it succeed as either? I have no real opinion on the paranormal side of things, but I liked it as a lads-get-together story. It's perhaps not one of my top ten from that point of view, but I did enjoy it and I will read it again. In fact, it will probably make it to the Favourites folder on my Kindle.
4) How might you tackle this premise if you were inspired to try your hand at writing it? Ha - total cop out, I wouldn't! I'll be interested to see what others think, though *g*

Thanks for introducing me to a new story and a thoughtful and provocative review!

[jessebee.livejournal.com]

Great review!

Thank you! As this is my first time out of the box, that means a lot!

yet this will, for now, be one of my 'guilty pleasures' fics

Ah, it's caught hold of you too, eh? ;-)

you describe that beautifully as Doyle's “sudden onset gayness,”

Isn't that a great phrase? I've borrowed it from somebody (BSL, was that you??) and I love it because it's just about a perfect descriptor of a very common occurrence, particularly in earlier fic.


for example I think Bodie's reaction the day after was a bit off,

Yes! See, Bodie's reactions are some of what bother me the most. While I'm completely with you in loving the way the lads' relationship develops, I just can't buy Bodie's almost complete LACK of surprise concerning Doyle's newfound ability. I have to wonder if, in the author's mind, Bodie has encountered this type of thing before (Africa, of course!). It would make sense, but we don't know that. It almost feels like there's a chunk of story missing here, or something.

If such a thing happened, I think Doyle would be far more freaked out about it.

Indeed. Or at least show a bit more disbelief!

but I liked it as a lads-get-together story.

Aaand that's where it sucks me in, too, time and time again. ;-) Thanks for your lovely responses!

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Really good introduction, thanks! I always like a bit of context.

So, what say you, fellow readers? Can you buy Doyle's new ability and the way he handles it? Can you see Bodie reacting in the ways that he does? How would you rate this in terms of a paranormal story as opposed to a lads-get-together story, and does it succeed as either? How might you tackle this premise if you were inspired to try your hand at writing it?

Usually, no. As I have said umpteen times before, I don't generally think Pros and the supernatural mix well. But this is an interesting sort of supernatural ability. The way Doyle handles it? Well, I absolutely do believe that the first thing he'd do would be to visit Bodie, yes! I like the fact that the distance (or is it the emotional level?) makes it more difficult and causes more reaction - that rather disposes of any suggestion that it would be a useful ability in CI5 generally.

Bodie is a bit matter of fact about it, I suppose. But then, would Bodie want to admit to being caught off-guard by anything he's actually really unsettled by? I can sort of see that.

I do like the way Doyle doesn't realise for five minutes that Bodie didn't abandon him voluntarily - on perfectly reasonable grounds - and that he can't explain that to Cowley. I thought that was very neatly done.

The line about "It's pretty simple: only two moving parts to it." made me laugh out loud.

As a paranormal story, for me, the paranormal doesn't take over. The emphasis is on the relationship.

I wouldn't have thought of tackling this premise myself, and I'm not sure how I would, really. But it's a fascinating question.

[jessebee.livejournal.com]

Woo, late getting back to the party, I am! Been a busy few days for me :-P Glad you liked the intro!

that rather disposes of any suggestion that it would be a useful ability in CI5 generally.

Oh, I don't know, I'd rather think Cowley would use anything and everything, regardless! ;-)

The line about "It's pretty simple: only two moving parts to it." made me laugh out loud.

Me too :-D

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this interesting review! :-)

I'm in fact no supernatural fan but I like Doyle's astral projections. I think it is very well written and above all It gives us the opportunity to have a long close look at the sleeping Bodie. And that's surely a nice thing! ;-)

There are some very good and atmospheric descriptions.
" Bodie was always such a contained sleeper whenever he napped while they were on a job. He slept tucked in upon himself, as if to present as small a target as possible to any hostile intent, as if to be ready to erupt into wakefulness at an instant's notice.
Here, alone, on his own territory, Bodie slept stretched expansively across the mattress, on his back, arms and legs outflung to the edges of the bed."
" He stood before the curtains a moment, motionless, then grasped the cord and opened them a few inches. Reaching through the gap thus formed, he opened the window. A momentary breeze wafted in, stirring the edges of the curtains, but leaving the room no cooler than before. Bodie raised a hand and massaged the back of his neck, then looked downward and muttered ruefully, "And as for you..." he reached down and nudged at himself with two fingers, "...no, I don't think so. Me palms get any hairier and people'll start noticing." He walked back over to the bed and lay down, moving about on the mattress until, comfortable, he finally came to rest on his back, limbs outspread in the same wide confidence Doyle had seen in him before."

And then Bodie wakes up.
" Bodie's hand closed upon his. Doyle jumped, making a small sound of shock.

"Ray?" Bodie's voice was sleepy and full of confusion.

"Don't worry," Doyle assured him, his own heart slowing as he recalled the truth of their situation, "This's just a dream.""

And Ray believes it!

Afterwards 'their' first sex is nice. And the next day Doyle is sick and Bodie behaves strange. And then Bodie vanishes and Doyle uses his new skills to find his friend... For me this is a quite nice story so far.

But we're still on page 22 of 46 pages. And for the rest of the story I really miss the golden thread, a reason for the next half of the story.

I also miss a solution for the supernatural phenomenon.
Doyle is absolutely aware of it.
"--that something he'd have previously classified as "supernatural" had happened. Astral projection? Whatever. The name he gave it didn't matter. It had happened."
Even Bodie accepts it without any questions. And that's all we hear about it.

...and at the end there is a quite lame joke about Bodie playing accordion. Well…

So I would separate this story into two halves. A very enjoyable first part and a quite boring second. What a pity, really!

-------------------
Oh, your questions... :-)

"Can you buy Doyle's new ability and the way he handles it?"
Not really. I think he would do some investigations before his first trip outside. He would read books. He would talk to someone. Bodie? Maybe.

"Can you see Bodie reacting in the ways that he does?"
At night! Yes! *g* The day after? No! He would be very confused and would try to make sense of things.

"How would you rate this in terms of a paranormal story as opposed to a lads-get-together story, and does it succeed as either?"
The paranormal story should have been more elaborated, wheras I'm not really a friend of get-together #2138...

"How might you tackle this premise if you were inspired to try your hand at writing it?"
I could imagine that they investigate the phenomena together(as a couple).
So many possibilities... :-)


Thanks again!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yes - I agree about it seeming like a story of two halves. The first half, I thought, showed so much promise, then the second half rather deteriorated into cliche...

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

I think that's the problem of many stories - that a nice idea is abandoned for 'just another first time'...
*sigh*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yeah - but I think that's a problem with authors/the writing more than because there's something wrong with writing "another" first time story! I suspect that plots are often devised as a way to get the lads together, and once the lads are together the story is complete as far as the author is concerned, so there's no reason to explain/continue anything else - that first device was never what they wanted to write in the first place. Really good writers don't do that though, they combine the two sub/plots properly - I think that's why authors such as Sebastian, M. Fae Glasgow, Helen Raven and Kate Maclean are considered such "good" writers - whether we like their style, or characterisation or not, their stories don't leave us with that "partially finished" feeling that stories like this one have. They can write as many first times as they like, and their stories will always be complete all around...

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

" Yeah - but I think that's a problem with authors/the writing more than because there's something wrong with writing "another" first time story!"

That's right. I enjoy a good first time story as anybody else.
But it seems to be a 'trap' for many writers. Though obviously a trap they enjoy stumbling in… ;-)

I remember one story we discussed here: Holding Back The Flood by Lacey McBain.
It's a very dark and intense story. Gripping!
But again as soon as it turns into a first time it loses its power!
IMO as a gen or better an established story, it would be much better. Extraordinary!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I don't think just making stories gen rather than slash is the answer - slashing the lads is an extra element to a story - and omitting that element would make me less interested in the story, just as omitting a proper plot makes me less interested! Slash writers just need to focus on the whole story, as well as the slash, and you'd hope that might be where a good beta comes in and says "yes, but what about...?" I wonder if Dee had a beta for this story...

I went to look for the discussion about HBtF that you mention - you mean this one (http://ci5hq.livejournal.com/102499.html?thread=1677411#t1677411)? Actually I just had to read HBtF again, and reply to you there... I absolutely disagree that HBtF either "turns into a first time story" (it was always a first time story, that was it's point right from the start) or "loses its power". It's actually a good example of a story involving both plot and first-time, a story well done. The main plot of the story is that Doyle has been resisting having a first time with Bodie, the sub-plot of the failed op is what causes the "flood" of Doyle's desire for Bodie, which he's been holding back for years, to break through his barriers and become that first time. And what happened in the op isn't just forgotten either, it's woven throughout - we're told at the very end that the effects of the subplot still linger, they've not been magically solved through sex: Someday it'll be them on a rooftop, guns empty, eyes locked, and nowhere to go but down... But not tonight. And for me that's what makes it a whole, complete story, which is what's missing in Incubus.

Actually Incubus could be helped in a similar way - if the author had given us a hint that the subplot of Doyle's new powers still affected the lads at the end of the story. Something like (italics = the end of Dee's story, bold = my continuation:

"Doyle," Bodie said into the stillness.

"Mmn?"

"I told the Cow today."

"You what!" Doyle sat bolt upright with the shock of it..."now he's going to have me working for him awake and asleep! I can't do it!"

"...I told him about us, not about you floating about without your body on..."

...

"Wasn't me who woke us up in the first place, Doyle."

"You sayin' you wish I hadn't?" Doyle asked incredulously.

"Nope."

"Goodnight, Bodie."

Doyle turned over, but his mind was ticking away with this strange new world: his love for Bodie, for what they'd done, for their future together. Could he somehow teach Bodie to leave his body behind, show him the quiet night-time world that floated above the city? Sex amongst the stars... His eyes began to close at last, his mind calming, slowing...

There was a sudden jolt.

Something along those lines - that the world goes on, there's no "happily ever after" as a result of sex, even when that sex has been fabulous - that their story will go on!

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

I knew it was a mistake to mention 'gen'... ;-)
Let's make it established then. it doesn't matter, because what I mean is, that for me the main plot of the story is the failed op! With an establishe relationship everything would be clear(er) between them and they - the author - could concentrate on the events on that roof and their feelings about it.

But I have to reread the story before I can answer properly(this evening I hope).

Yours is a good end! :-)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Heee! No, I just don't think that you necessarily have to take out the "first time" element to make Incubus a better story. It's more that, as you say (and someone else did too), this is really two stories, and only the "first time" part was properly finished. (And thank you! *g*)

In the case of Hold Back the Flood though, if you took away the first time element, there'd be nothing left, because that's what the story as a whole was about!

But I appreciate that you want a story that is about the failed op in HBtF - I agree that would be an interesting story in its own right. But it would be a completely different one - and it would mostly be about the other agents, too, not perhaps not even really a Bodie and Doyle story (gen, or established relationship, or slash!)

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

Heee! Established relationship is no slash? :-)

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

"I went to look for the discussion about HBtF that you mention - you mean this one? Actually I just had to read HBtF again, and reply to you there... I absolutely disagree that HBtF either "turns into a first time story" (it was always a first time story, that was it's point right from the start) or "loses its power". It's actually a good example of a story involving both plot and first-time, a story well done. The main plot of the story is that Doyle has been resisting having a first time with Bodie, the sub-plot of the failed op is what causes the "flood" of Doyle's desire for Bodie, which he's been holding back for years, to break through his barriers and become that first time. And what happened in the op isn't just forgotten either, it's woven throughout - we're told at the very end that the effects of the subplot still linger, they've not been magically solved through sex: Someday it'll be them on a rooftop, guns empty, eyes locked, and nowhere to go but down... But not tonight. And for me that's what makes it a whole, complete story, which is what's missing in Incubus."

You're righ!
*reaches the smelling salt* :-)

(more see original post) (http://ci5hq.livejournal.com/102499.html?thread=1677411#t1677411)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

*picks self off floor*

Wow!

*g*

[jessebee.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this interesting review! :-)

Thank YOU! Sorry to be tardy commenting, it's been a wild few days for me. :-)

I also miss a solution for the supernatural phenomenon.

Same here, and I think that's what bothers me most about it, past the other technical and grammar stuff. There's a whole raft of things the author could have done and places she could have gone, and none of that happened. So sad. ;-(

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Ha - you know I'm extra chuffed you chose Incubus, because I think that was the first story I volunteered to help with for the Hatstand archive! I scanned it, and checked it, and the Hatstander put it up, and yeay - it was clearly so worth it! *vbg* Actually it may have ended up being the only one I helped with for the Hatstand, cos I did other things with stories after that, but... yeay! *g*

Can you buy Doyle's new ability and the way he handles it?
Well, I'll buy Doyle's ability as part of the story, but I can't really buy the way he handles it - I mean astral projection, how cool is that?! I like the slow build up to him realising that it's real, and I love his glimpse of the lovebite he gave Bodie being his proof that it was real after all... but this is Doyle! He questions everything in the real world, never mind philosophy (Need to Know), the existence of a god (Mixed Doubles) and every single case he's ever worked on (all of the eps!) - so how can he just accept astral projection as the thing that brought him to Bodie? Okay, perhaps he's bowled over by discovering that he's in love with Bodie (although to be honest I'm not overly convinced by that either - he might have discovered that he can have sex with Bodie, but I didn't feel any build up to them being in love), but still - the Doyle I see in the eps wants to know more about everything!

Can you see Bodie reacting in the ways that he does?
About Doyle, or about the astral projecting, or...? Again, I think he accepts Doyle's astro projecting too easily. He's been given proof, and it's obviously saved his life, so he really can't not believe in it, but something like that would surely turn your world on its head - if people can do that, then it would have all sorts of implications for the world, for CI5, for the job they do. And I can't believe that the lads wouldn't be interested in that, whether or not it's the focus of the story. I'd believe in the characters more if that side of them was acknowledged in the story...

How would you rate this in terms of a paranormal story as opposed to a lads-get-together story, and does it succeed as either?
Well, I like the premise of the story (unlike alot of non-paranormal-story people above! *g*), but it feels neither one thing nor the other to me. I think the author's taken two huge themes, and gone halfway with them both... Or... not gone halfway with the relationship part of the story, but not gone into it in any proper depth (though to be fair I can't remember when this was written, and obviously we've all got different ideas of depth, and they've developed over time, so...) The relationship part is rather gay-Mills-and-Boon to me I'm afraid - too much talking about things, and discussing them, and not enough acceptance of lust for what it is, which I think our blokes would probably do, even if they were turned on their head by discovering they were gay... Okay, Doyle does think things out, and I can see him struggling with the idea that actually he fancies Bodie, but it plays out a little bit too let's-explain-how-we-feel-and-how-it-all-works, when I prefer to be shown how things are working... For instance, I don't think we see Doyle (or Bodie) sitting down to talk things through when they're conflicted in the eps - we see Doyle going off on his own to do his chores (when he's bothered about the lads who were killed in DiaG), acting when he's conflicted about his job (Involvement - he picks up Ann Holly!), but not so much sitting down to talk about it...

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oddly enough, I don't think the story fails in general, even though I don't necessarily thing it succeeds as well as I want it to as either a paranormal or a first-relationship story. It's well enough written, and it's got some heart to it, and I can ignore most of the American twists of phrase in order to read on, which I can't when a story is less...

How might you tackle this premise if you were inspired to try your hand at writing it?
Oooh, interesting question - almost enough to inspire me to try my hand at writing it! *g* I think if I was including a plot device as powerful as astro projection, I'd need to revolve the story around that, and actually finish that part of the plot somehow. So they'd get together through it, but perhaps the cost of Doyle's astro projection/them getting together would be more than just Doyle feeling sick each time - there'd have to be something more pivotal come of that. It's a good way to put a halt to the whole oh-we-can-use-it-to-solve-all-the-world's-problems temptation, but the idea rather got lost when we hit Mills and Boon territory, I think... Maybe save rescuing Bodie until a fourth and more nearly fatal astral projection once they were in a relationship... or perhaps Doyle would play with using it to help CI5 and discover it wouldn't work - did he squander such an amazing power on "just" having sex with Bodie? I can see him angsting about having indulged in a relationship when he could have been helping right wrongs with it... or perhaps enjoying the relationship, but insisting on trying to use astral projection for CI5, and endangering their relationship/his life as result, with all the impact that would have on Bodie...

Thanks for the thoughts! *g*

[jessebee.livejournal.com]

I can ignore most of the American twists of phrase in order to read on, which I can't when a story is less...

And of course I myself don't see half of those, I'm sure, as I'm American myself! ;-) Bit of a handicap, in this fandom!

Maybe save rescuing Bodie until a fourth and more nearly fatal astral projection once they were in a relationship...

That was where my brain immediately went, too. It would make far more sense in the progression of the story. I'm tempted to try my hand at writing it, too, I confess....

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

Oh, I like both these scenarios. It's something that could be taken in several different directions and so I do think it's the story's weakest link. Something that amazing would cause more of a reaction from both and create so many possibilities.

[jessebee.livejournal.com]

I didn't know that you'd helped put Incubus up on Hatstand, that's very cool!

Well, I'll buy Doyle's ability as part of the story, but I can't really buy the way he handles it

Same here, that's not the Doyle I've seen. As you point out, that man questions and ponders EVERYTHING, there's no way he'd just ACCEPT in the way he does. I think that's what I meant by the character feels a bit "soft."

Again, I think he accepts Doyle's astro projecting too easily. He's been given proof, and it's obviously saved his life, so he really can't not believe in it, but something like that would surely turn your world on its head

Precisely! I think that for Bodie to accept it in the way he does, there MUST be more to the story. Did he run into weird shit in Africa? Is his own granny psychic? Is he himself secretly psychic? ;-) There must be something more, because that calm acceptance, where he's more concerned about Doyle "running out" on him after the sex than about the fact that he faded out at all (!!) is not the Bodie I know.

but it plays out a little bit too let's-explain-how-we-feel-and-how-it-all-works, when I prefer to be shown how things are working...

Indeed. I think it would be stronger with a lot more show and a lot less tell.

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

A bit late to the party again, but this took some time to read! And though there was some enjoyment, it isn't a story I'd ever return to, as much as I enjoy supernatural stories. One reason is because, as long as the story is, it still felt rushed to me.

Can you buy Doyle's new ability and the way he handles it?

And this would be the second reason. Doyle can suddenly project his body anywhere he wishes, yet he doesn't seem all that curious as to why. Yes, at first he thinks he's dreaming, but even once he realizes that the wasn't he seems more concerned with what's going on between him and Bodie, the two storylines bumping into each other instead of meshing.

Can you see Bodie reacting in the ways that he does?

He certainly seems to take it in stride. I can't imagine anyone being so blasé about seeing someone disappear before their eyes. And he seems as uninterested in finding out as to why it's happening as Doyle is.

How would you rate this in terms of a paranormal story as opposed to a lads-get-together story, and does it succeed as either?

I don't think the story completely succeeds with either. As I commented with the last story, stories of the paranormal tend to need a slow buildup, since you're striving for a feeling of horror—or, at the very least, dread. As for the other, I've never been keen on stories where one or the other doesn't realize he's in love. I suppose it happens, but I can't imagine how someone could not know they're in love.

How might you tackle this premise if you were inspired to try your hand at writing it?

Having tackled horror before, I think I'd spend more time on Doyle's "talent," letting it grow stronger over time instead of it coming on full blown, build the suspense as far as what it was and why it was happening. Because I'd want there to at some point be some sort of, if not explanation (is the supernatural explainable?) than a reason for it, even if it's only to save Bodie. SomeTHING or someone giving Doyle this because it somehow knows what's to come. Something. And I think I'd create more of a downside to it, so that it's more of a curse, or at least more of a price to pay in using it. And knowing me, the story would be quite a bit longer! *g*

[jessebee.livejournal.com]

A bit late to the party again

Me too!! ;-)

He (Bodie) certainly seems to take it in stride. I can't imagine anyone being so blasé about seeing someone disappear before their eyes. And he seems as uninterested in finding out as to why it's happening as Doyle is.

Bingo. That's exactly it. Bothersome, yes?

stories of the paranormal tend to need a slow buildup, since you're striving for a feeling of horror—or, at the very least, dread.

Okay, now this I find tremendously interesting, from a genre viewpoint as well: does paranormal/supernatural always equal horror? I've never thought so, myself. I tend to see them as positive and as an advantage, but maybe that's just me. ;-)

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

No, I see your point. I think I'm more inclined to lean toward the supernatural, i.e. horror, than toward the paranormal—which I suppose is thought of as more benign, because it's what I prefer. And I have to admit, paranormal is too loosely defined for me to know exactly what it is. In any event, any use of something we can't explain would create at least unease, wouldn't it?

I would have liked the author to make a clear stand one way or the other, though the use of the term "incubus," does make me wonder if she was at least thinking about it. But if the story were to lean more toward the idea of the paranormal being something we can't explain now, I'd want some sort of quasi-scientific explanation, or at least a stab at it. In other words, the story is either grounded in the supernatural (horror,) or the paranormal (quasi-science.) I don't know if I'm explaining this right. But I know what I mean. *g*

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

"But I know what I mean."
*g* May I nick this phrase for further use?

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

Oh, sure. It's certainly come in handy for me. *g*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I knew there was something else I was going to ask someone about on this thread! *g* I've got to admit that I was a bit surprised to see you describe this as an attempt at "horror" - I don't necessarily equate the paranormal/supernatural and horror either (though it's true in some cases, of course!) For instance, a sad ghost story would be a paranormal/supernatural story, but not necessarily a horror...

As far as I know, paranormal and supernatural are pretty much used interchangeably. I suspect that "paranormal" began to be used by people who wanted a more scientific approach to the questions/mysteries, and wanted to get away from the religio-magical sound of "supernatural". I don't think "paranormal" carries any implication that something's more benign though - we don't call a ghost "paranormal" if it's a quiet one, and "supernatural" if it's violent... I think it's more that it'd be "the paranormal" if you believed there was a scientific explanation, and "supernatural" if you thought it was the work of the devil/,magic/god etc.

So to me this could be either a paranormal or supernatural story - but not a horror. Horror to me implies that something really awful could or has happened in consequence - the burning of the victims in The Wicker Man, or the blood and guts of Chainsaw Massacre and the like, or psychological horror.

"Incubus" is a more loaded term than "astral projectionist" though - presumably because there was sex involved... But was Doyle's ability ever supposed to be horror-laden? Granted it should cause him unease (but does unease=horror? I wouldn't say so, unless the consequences were shown to be horrific.) but for me that's a falling-down in the story - it doesn't cause them anything much, even with Doyle's violent illness as reaction...

[jessebee.livejournal.com]

As far as I know, paranormal and supernatural are pretty much used interchangeably.

Ah, and you bring up an excellent point here. From one (admittedly) on the fringes but having an interest, yes, paranormal was and is generally used by folks who want to divorce the "science" of people having abilities beyond the norm from the "superstition" of things what go bump in the night. Paranormal has come to be used to represent people, human, whereas supernatural is "other", if that makes sense. And the author using the term "incubus" as a title, blurs those lines for the reader of the story.

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

Very well put! (certainly better than my attempt. *g*) Because, for me, they are quite different, though the dictionary doesn't think so. So when the thread is "Pros and the Supernatural," my brain put it in the "bump in the night" category, especially considering the title. An incubus is an evil spirit that's supposed to violate sleeping women (actually, "Succubus" is what should have been used.) Certainly something horrifying. But the story didn't use it that way at all. Instead, it veers off into astral projection, which I would put under the paranormal category.

The story is definitely not a horror story, but it's where I would have preferred it had gone.

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Incubus and succubus - I always thought that the distinction between the two was the sex of the demon rather than the sex of the visited sleeper.

I've just realised that I have just left a comment that pretty much echoes yours on this being about astral projection rather than demons of lust - I should have read to the end of the newer comments before replying!

Out of curiosity, and it's a long time since I've read it, but doesn't Jane's Labyrinth have a plotline that involves (in part) a Bodie increasingly going into phases where he behaves most un-Bodie-ly (um) and not taking no for an answer? Is that the kind of incubus-based horror element you're thinking of? Hmm. Must re-read some time.

[jessebee.livejournal.com]

Incubus and succubus - I always thought that the distinction between the two was the sex of the demon rather than the sex of the visited sleeper.

It is. An incubus is a male demon, a succubus is a female demon. Demonologists of old would have it that an incubus seduced women and a succubus seduced men, but of course we are more equal-opportunity these days in matters sexual.... ;-)

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

The dictionary begs to differ (well, my does, anyway.) *g* Both as defined as evil spirits, the difference being what they prey on, the incubus going after women, the succubus after men. It could be that, considering the times in which the myths originated, the thought that the spirit would go after the same sex wasn't considered.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I had to go and check my dictionary too (Concise Oxford). Interestingly enough it defines an incubus as "Evil spirit supposed to descend on sleeping persons; nightmare;person or thing that oppresses like nightmare", whereas it defines a succubus as "Female demon supposed to have sexual intercourse with sleeping men." Methinks a case of not giving gender to the most commonly used term, assuming that it's male (i.e. "the norm"), whereas the female version had to be defined as specifically female, because that's "other"... *sighs*

I'll go and look up some of my more specifically supernatural/mythological books once I've had some lunch, and see what they say! All very interesting... Though I don't think same sex relationships are that new-fangled... *g*

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

No, not new, lol. I'm thinking more that perhaps they just sort of ignored them as best they could, considering that it's a female demon having intercourse with sleeping men. What's a female demon who has intercourse with sleeping women? *g*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

What's a female demon who has intercourse with sleeping women?
Ha - completely non-existant - at the best it's even more invisible than a male demon who has intercourse with sleeping men!

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Actually, "incubus" makes me think of medieval demonology: they were definitely not good spirits to meet! Thinking about it, I suppose I see this story more as astral projection than an incubus story. Astral projection is a much more neutral ability.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Snap! The title is pretty misleading if you know anything about myths and folktales and incubuses and succubuses at all... or astral projection...

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

I knew there was something else I was going to ask someone about on this thread! *g* I've got to admit that I was a bit surprised to see you describe this as an attempt at "horror" - I don't necessarily equate the paranormal/supernatural and horror either (though it's true in some cases, of course!) For instance, a sad ghost story would be a paranormal/supernatural story, but not necessarily a horror...

No, I don't see the story as a horror story, I just wish it had gone in that direction. But even a sad ghost story (the poem, Sweet William's Ghost", comes to mind,) does have more than a tinge of horror—at least for me. That's just the way my brain seems to work—which is really strange considering I don't actually believe in any of it! *g*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

But even a sad ghost story (the poem, Sweet William's Ghost", comes to mind,) does have more than a tinge of horror—at least for me. That's just the way my brain seems to work
Oh okay... *g*

[jessebee.livejournal.com]

paranormal is too loosely defined for me to know exactly what it is

It's too loosely defined for anybody to really know, honestly!

And about the use of the term "incubus", that is an excellent point, and one I hadn't really considered. The use of that term for a title IS a bit misleading, isn't it! For someone familiar with it in the historical sense of its usage, it does give out a feeling of possible horror or dread, and that's not where the story went. I think the author just thought it would be a cool association with "nighttime seduction" and went with that. So I think I do know what you meant there!