Reading Room XIV - Pros and the Supernatural - The Tailor-Made Sequence by Helen Raven

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Title: The Tailor-Made Sequence
Author: Helen Raven
Pairing: B/D
Link: The Tailor-Made Sequence at the author's website.

In an interview posted at the Hatstand, Raven says of this story:
The first story I finished was "Tailor-Made", which I wrote on one Sunday morning in Norway in 1990; I'd started a couple of others in the years before, but neither had got very far. I released it on the Circuit (via Sara Slinn's Pros library), and a few years later I wrote a sequel. It's been a while since I've re-read that set of stories, and while some of the lines about Bodie's Harley make me cringe, I think on the whole it's a striking and effective piece of work... "Tailor-Made" grew from a throw-away remark from a friend about the "fatal attraction" that Bodie held for other men... I woke up one Sunday morning and was lying waiting for the alarm to go off for my early-morning writing exercise, and the plot of "Tailor-Made" came whole into my head, and I leapt out of bed and sat down at the dining-room table, and by lunchtime it was finished.

The Tailor-Made Sequence comprises three stories: Tailor Made, Quantum Mechanics and The Rewards of Patience. In the first Murphy tells what he's come to believe is the somewhat strange story of his affair with a man called William Bodie. Murphy and Doyle are partners, and we find out at the end of the fic that Doyle has his own reasons for believing the supernatural story that Murphy relates. Quantum Mechanics goes on to tell us how Doyle met Murphy's "demon lover, and then The Rewards of Patience goes back and picks up the thread of what happened once Doyle knew who "Andrew Phillips" really was. The first two stories are just a few pages each, but the third is 33 pages long, and creates what seems to me to be a very original supernatural universe.

Doyle's reaction to Murphy's story is fear, and to protect himself and others from the creature he knows as Phillips, he meets him one more time and kills him, covering up the crime with the help of a reluctant, and also frightened Murphy. The trouble is that Bodie comes back.

Frozen in fear, Doyle listens to his story, and it turns out that Bodie was once an ordinary human being, alive in the 1800s, who stumbled into the world of what he calls "The Changer", and began what seemed to be an endless cycle of falling in love with men who he would lure to their death. They sometimes escape him - as did Murphy - but he recognises in Doyle a kindred spirit, someone who would love being "changed" as much as he did, and whose "changing" would mean an end to the cycle and a new beginning - their life together.

Sure enough, Doyle agrees that he wants more than anything else to find The Changer and be with Bodie forever, is eventually taken to the primeval forest in which The Changer exists, and comes to truly believe that he and Bodie will be allowed to spend the rest of eternity together. They make their plans carefully, and by the end of the story Doyle is lying on the floor of his flat, the apparent victim of a knife attack, but with eyes that are very calm.

So... gosh! I have all sorts of questions after reading this story, because I think it very cleverly works its way into your mind so that you never quite know...

First and foremost, of course, is whether Doyle's beliefs really have any basis - will he and Bodie be joined forever? - or whether William Bodie has simply added another victim to his list. Being me I want to believe the former, and it barely occurred to me to think the latter, but leaving that itch in the reader's head means the story is much more memorable than it might have been with an obvious happy ending.

Then there's the forest, and my questions here run more along the lines of what in the world?! Who (or what?) is The Changer? Some Cernunnos/Herne/Pan/Wild Hunter being, the god figure without the goddess? He seems even more raw than that, somehow, and I wonder where Raven found her imagery, whether it was from any mythology (consciously or unconsciously) or whether it was purely from her own imagination.

There are hints of others like Bodie, people who've been "changed" - if so, do they have a purpose? A common background? Something like the endless vampires who "sire" each other, perhaps? But that's all background stuff, interesting though it is.

What about Bodie and Doyle in this story - are they our (my!) Bodie and Doyle? They both seem pretty fearless, determined, confident - I see our lads in that. But could canon Doyle really kill someone (who at least looks like a person) as story-Doyle did Bodie? He struggles to shoot Barry Martin after all, and he knows full-well he's a villain who's already nearly killed Cowley, and betrayed the whole of CI5 - a demon just as much as Bodie is in the story. And what about story-Bodie, does his list of "men" mesh with canon Bodie's endless little black book style of dating (until Doyle comes along, in both cases *g*)?

I'm always left a bit troubled by this story, somehow - and I'm not sure it's the storyline that does it, because as I said I tend to read the ending that the lads are united eternally at the end. It might be that I never quite believe they're my lads, but I can't put my finger on exactly why not - though Doyle's calculated murder of the demon-Bodie, and apparent calm afterwards drags at me... or is he calm? Maybe he's not at all, and what we're reading is the madness into which he's been plunged?

In any case, I think striking and effective is a fair way to describe this story - I'm just not entirely sure what the effects are!

I'd love to hear what anyone else thinks... *g*

Comments

[golden-bastet.livejournal.com]

Oh, no, I just accidentally deleted my comment. :-(

Basically: I tend to have mixed feelings for Helen Raven's writing, because for me it often doesn't hold up on repeat readings; seams start to appear and such. That's actually a side conversation that I think takes away from the discussion, because this story *does* seem to hold up.

Which is a good thing, because I like the off-center direction she takes with her fics.

Does Doyle look like Doyle? Would he really kill Bodie like that? I actually think yes. Doyle's remorse seems hinged upon whether or not he knows the person, and whether what he felt for the person is real (and maybe if the person is deserving of some sympathy, like Mickey Hamliton). Barry Martin seems to have turned after he became an agent - so the initial feelings Doyle felt for him were probably not displaced at the time. Story Bodie, however, is different: he's not human, he threatens members of CI5, Doyle has first-hand knowledge of his danger, and Bodie confirms that he's involved in those deaths. Doyle can't go to Cowley about this because he'll just end up with Ross (or at Repton). So he's got ample space to question the reality of this being and whatever he felt for him. I don't think in that case that Doyle wouldn't see this as self-defense, as clear a course of action as shooting someone who's pulled a gun on him.



ETA: and maybe that was also showing how Doyle *is* like Bodie in the end, drawn to wanting this thing, this afterlife. Although if so, it may not work as well. (Will think about that, it just occurred to me and RL is calling now.)

ETA2: And one other thing - I'm not sure why it's split into three parts. I mean, the parts can stand alone, but I'm not sure what's gained by that. It sounds like she wrote all three in a morning, so it's not like she posted but kept coming back to it.

ETA3: Arrrgghh, you're making me think about this over and over and over again!!!

First and foremost, of course, is whether Doyle's beliefs really have any basis - will he and Bodie be joined forever? - or whether William Bodie has simply added another victim to his list.

Except Doyle gets to the forest. It seems that that is reserved for special humans; Murphy at least never described any of that. If Bodie was just there to convince him to die, I don't think he'd've had to go that far.

I do like how Mayli's appearance is handled, though.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh no - deleted comments are sooooo annoying!

Helen Raven's writing, because for me it often doesn't hold up on repeat readings; seams start to appear and such...this story *does* hold up
Heee - I'm almost the exact opposite! Of all Raven's stories, this one is perhaps the one that has seams for me...

Doyle's remorse seems hinged upon whether or not he knows the person, and whether what he felt for the person is real
See, that's exactly why I think he'd find it hard to kill Bodie in the story - because for him Bodie has been real. I loved the end of the first story, where the horror dawns on him, but I still think he'd feel more for Bodie, despite know what he is (or what Murphy said he was). The fact that Bodie moves towards him when Doyle's told him not to, and that Doyle did ask him about it all made it better, but... I still wasn't quite convinced I think. In my head yes, in my heart - not so much...

The three parts weren't written all together - that's from the interview too (I thought I'd included it, but obviously haven't -sorry!). The first story in the series was written that morning, the next in the same month, the last one was written two and a half years later - which might help to explain why the third part seems so different to me...

Arrrgghh, you're making me think about this over and over and over again!!!
Heee - yeay! *g*

Good point about Doyle getting to the forest, where Murphy'd never been - or never talked about, anyway. But maybe that's the part of Doyle's madness that Bodie needs to evoke to get him to kill himself - maybe he knows that nothing less but something so unbelievable could be believable enough to Doyle...

[snailbones.livejournal.com]

I agree with your summing up - it's a story that stays with you, it's well-written, and different enough to stand out... But!

When I saw it was on the schedule for this week, I thought I'd give it another go. I first read it some time back, and didn't particularly enjoy it, mainly I think because it's not the Bodie and Doyle I have in my head - they're written well, and story hangs together beautifully, but it's just not them, and I think that's where it falls over for me. I can't see Doyle killing like that... but then it's a supernatural story, so people are almost certainly going to behave differently; even so, it's too much of a leap for me. Plus there are other huge bounds - Murphy coming out to Doyle that way is too abrupt, and Doyle opens wide and swallows the whole thing almost without a murmur.

I'm glad I gave it another go, and if was written as an original fic I think I'd probably love it, but as a Pros story, nope, not for me.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I think I agree with you about it not being my Bodie and Doyle... even if it's a supernatural story, it's a Bodie/Doyle story first and foremost, surely - otherwise it's not fanfic... but then as moonlightmead says below, I think I'd want alot more if it was an original story too...

I agree about the way Murphy tells Doyle the story too, and Doyle is sympathetic and believes it without any teasing or anything I'd expect a bloke like him to say. Granted he knows it's true, so some of it could be the shock shutting him up, but... yeah, I rarely hear blokes being that... sympathetic to each other without... I'm not sure, something else, something a bit more abrasive in there too, to sort of shock them out of it - a sharper sympathy, somehow...

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

I just finished reading it, for the first time, and it'll probably take a while to digest it all.
Not an easy, or all that enjoyable, read for me.
Maybe it's because Bodie and Doyle don't work together, and their relationship seems to be mainly about the sex and death, and enjoying killing, though there are a few glimpses of more.
The descriptions of all three main characters are kind of "distant" for me. I don't quite know how to explain it.
Maybe I'm missing the joy of the canon relationship. The way they are looking at each other, and play off of each other.

Murphy often thinks about Doyle as strange, and there is mention that he'd sometimes be almost happy to be rid of him, but then he talks himself out of this notion. I wonder about this. Is it, because Doyle is already primed to be something else, and that's why Murphy feels uncomfortable with Doyle? Or is it just Doyle's personality in general?
Killing Bodie, and then calling Murphy over to help him just feels wrong, somehow.
And is it a little too much coincidence, that both Doyle and Murphy gave off the right vibes to attract Bodie?
Bodie claims to never stop loving any of *his* men, but sounds very uninterested in Murphy's feelings.
It it just something Bodie tells his current interest?

We don't know Murphy well from canon, but we do know Bodie and Doyle, and I'm not quite getting the right *sense* of either one in this story, supernatural or not. Their essential characters are mostly missing for me.
It's a very "narrow" view at their lives. We don't see much of what they normally do, apart from the very beginning.

>>So... gosh! I have all sorts of questions after reading this story, because I think it very cleverly works its way into your mind so that you never quite know... <<

Exactly! *g*

At the end, I was almost convinced that Bodie and Doyle would be together, but then Doyle doubts, and I do.
When Bodie drinks his blood, it's chilling and makes me think he is just a creepy vampire, who managed to con another victim, but why go through all that trouble, then. He's had plenty of opportunity, without this elaborate setup.

The End (for now)?

[milomaus.livejournal.com]

First read for me, though I devoured her other stories, but going back to her homepage I realised why I skipped it before. It says Horror Story, and that's a no-go for me.
But the way your rec was done made me wanna read it, and since I didn't see the warning this time.

I liked it. Though I agree with Snailbones, it's not my Lads.
Not that I can't see Doyle killing, but there's too much hankypanky about how goodlooking Bodie is, and they're just too sweet in their loving.
Too much talking, too much said.

I really, really like the way the first part ends, with Doyle getting afraid because of the coincedence with the things Murphy told him about his Lover.
That's so very intense and believable.

And I like the second part, though I got a bit confused about the things that happen when Murphy meets dead Bodie. I should've read it again, because I thoight Bodie was already coming back to life, but then he didn't and it was a bit funny, but I wanted to goon, though I just left it at that.

The third part was far too long, though it was great to be able to get the mysterie together, and having Doyle going in the wood was amazing, but the Changer is just so oit of this world....

It' an amazing story, and I won't read it again.
Probably.

Thanks so much for reccing it, I'm glad you made me wanna read it.

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

>> though I got a bit confused about the things that happen when Murphy meets dead Bodie. I should've read it again, because I thoight Bodie was already coming back to life, but then he didn't and it was a bit funny,<<

I forgot about this, but yes, I thought there was something about Bodie looking at Murphy, and it confused me, when it turned out he wasn't alive yet, after all.

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I found that a bit confusing too.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I hope you're not tracking this, you'll see the next bit repeated far too many times!

Ah - but Bodie wasn't dead yet! He was still alive:
Murphy had seen many men die... Every hard-fought breath seemed to ricochet around the room, impossibly loud. Irregular, and full of the clicking sounds of bursting bubbles, the inhalations spoke of pain more eloquently than any scream. But the face was calm, all attention fixed on Doyle. Which meant that all three of them were in shock, of course... [Bodie] smiled at Doyle, a slow, sweet smile that turned suddenly into a grin. And then the dominant sound in the room was the ticking of the kitchen clock.

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

So, Doyle kicked Bodie to death?!

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

No, I think this is the moment: a slow, sweet smile that turned suddenly into a grin - that grin is a death rictus, or at least so I assumed.

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

What a relief! ;)
I wasn't quite ready to reread that part, yet!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

He was already dead then - he had to kick him to make the body as little recognisable as possible, to make it look like the other gangland killings...

As Moonlightmead says, the "grin" was the final death rictus (before the silence - no more noise from his trying to breath through blood)...

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Laugh, yeah.

Yes, I did follow it, but when I read it the first time, I did have to re-read this paragraph.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Ah - but Bodie wasn't dead yet! He was still alive:
Murphy had seen many men die... Every hard-fought breath seemed to ricochet around the room, impossibly loud. Irregular, and full of the clicking sounds of bursting bubbles, the inhalations spoke of pain more eloquently than any scream. But the face was calm, all attention fixed on Doyle. Which meant that all three of them were in shock, of course... [Bodie] smiled at Doyle, a slow, sweet smile that turned suddenly into a grin. And then the dominant sound in the room was the ticking of the kitchen clock.

[lillianorchid.livejournal.com]

There's where I tripped up as well and got a bit confused. :)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Heee - in the comments above I quoted the bits where it showed that Bodie wasn't actually dead yet, he was still alive after Doyle had shot him, until a little whilst after Bodie gets there... *g*

[lillianorchid.livejournal.com]

Ah, I see. For some reason I was sure he was already dead. **headdesk**

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

My brain did a double-take too - I think we tend to read "shot" as "killed", but it isn't necessarily so...

[lillianorchid.livejournal.com]

I think we tend to read "shot" as "killed", but it isn't necessarily so... I do that all the time, I have to remind myself that being shot doesn't necessarily mean death. **headdesk**

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

I thought he was dead and then was coming back to life, when Murphy arrived, and then got all confused when he was dead again. I should pay better attention!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't describe this as a horror story at all - would you, now? I think The Same River is much more horrific than this one... Tailor Made is shocking in some ways, perhaps, but...?

Good point about how goodlooking Bodie is - he was supposed to be a demon lover, so presumably he would be good looking, but I think because that had to mix in with canon (where Bodie's perfectly good looking, but I don't think amazingly exceptional - though I know alot of people do claim it...) it perhaps caught at me a bit...

I got a bit confused about the things that happen when Murphy meets dead Bodie
Ah - but Bodie wasn't dead yet! He was still alive: Murphy had seen many men die... Every hard-fought breath seemed to ricochet around the room, impossibly loud. Irregular, and full of the clicking sounds of bursting bubbles, the inhalations spoke of pain more eloquently than any scream. But the face was calm, all attention fixed on Doyle. Which meant that all three of them were in shock, of course... [Bodie] smiled at Doyle, a slow, sweet smile that turned suddenly into a grin. And then the dominant sound in the room was the ticking of the kitchen clock.

I do re-read this story, though not as often as Raven's others - and I'm glad I made you want to read it! *g*

[milomaus.livejournal.com]

That's it, I wouldn't describe it as a horror story at all. Now that I've read it.

Thank you for putting the paragraph in question in the comment, I did understand it, but anyways, it's very confusing. But it makes so much. more sense, that Murphy couldn't watch Doyle kick Bodie's body. Did Doyle realise that he was still "alive"?
That's probably although the reason why Doyle wanted to watch the - thing at the morgue...
And maybe Murphy's reaction at the end results in the fact that he sees that Doyle is still kinda alibe, too.

Still, no re- read for me.....*g*
But I'm glad, too, that you made me read it.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Ah, you know me - ever helpful... *g*

Bodie wasn't alive when Doyle was kicking him - that was after he died, when they were disposing of his body. He died earlier, when "the slow sweet smile turned to a grin" and then all they could hear was the kitchen clock.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh dear, I guess it would've been better if I read it again....

Thanks for pointing that out. I have to admit I'm very poorly informed in supernatural things and since there seems to be the "anything can happen" mode, I just assumed......well.

Anyways, I still won't read it again. *g*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's because Bodie and Doyle don't work together ...The way they are looking at each other, and play off of each other.
Yes! That's a good point - it's so canon that they do work seamlessly together, that perhaps that's what I'm missing from this. Even though they have the same goals, they're otehrwise completely separate...

and then calling Murphy over to help him just feels wrong
Hmmn - you could be right here... For me it might not be the killing so much (Bodie does threaten Doyle when he advances after Doyle told him to stay back) but the fact that he then relies on Murphy to help him - it's not even Bodie/Doyle at the end, Murphy's pulled between them by Doyle, and that does feel wrong - particularly him wanting them to have sex... In my head I could see why, from Doyle's point of view (Bodie isn't real, Murphy is, so involving Murphy is a way to reinforce reality rather than his dreams of Bodie)

And is it a little too much coincidence, that both Doyle and Murphy gave off the right vibes to attract Bodie?
I've got to admit, I put that down, even in this story, to everyone-in-CI5-is-gay syndrome...

Maybe it is the narrow view we're given that means we can't relate to them as our lads - good point... I think in most of Raven's other stories we know alot more about them both, whereas in this one... their characters are confined to the story - yes, maybe that's what's less convincing about it!

[murphybabe]

No, this one doesn't really do it for me. There are some lovely bits - the descriptions of the wood, for example, but they're not Pros. The Changer was just too wonderful/awesome/marvellous/amazing - come on, really?? Bodie and Doyle are too lovey-dovey and therefore not Pros. Murphy (my Murphy *g*) wasn't convincing - as snailbones said, what made him suddenly confess all to a sceptical Doyle? Call me shallow, but I'm afraid I wasn't really interested enough to wonder if Bodie was conning Doyle or if they truly would be together forever.

Having said all that, there are very, very few AUs I like, and the ones I do like are the ones where I can recognise 'my' lads, and therefore I can forgive the AU setting. Thinking more about that, two of my favourite AUs include the lads being lovey-dovey, but they retain the humour and the toughness that I recognise in the eps. The toughness in Tailor-Made had few redeeming features to it and I didn't spot any humour.

It didn't really hang together for me and I wasn't bothered enough to think more deeply about it. Striking, yes, effective? For me, no.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I'm never sorry I re-read it, but it's not my favourite Raven story by any means, and it's partly for me that they're not quite the lads I see and believe in... they could be, but not quite... I like siskiou's point that we're given such a narrow view of them - not working together, not being together, barely even talking together except about the storyline itself - that we can't find them as our canon-lads...

I didn't find them any more lovey-dovey than in alot of Prosfic, but I do see what you mean - and again, perhaps that's part of the "narrow focus"... and yes, the lack of a spark of humour too, they were so very serious in this story...

If you're not into AUs though, you're doing well to have stuck with this - I don't think I could have, before I started adoring AUs! In fact I didn't, it was ages before I read any Helen Raven (apart from Freezing, which was one of the first Pros fics I adored, and was the one that I had printed out and so all the Pros fic I had to read when I moved from the UK to Alaska, way back when!

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

The toughness in Tailor-Made had few redeeming features to it and I didn't spot any humour.
Oh yes, the lack of humour is a good point, and I think it's come up before in the reading room as something that throws people out of stories.

there are very, very few AUs I like
I know you've mentioned a couple before, but I can't remember - which AUs do you like?

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

I really like Tailor-Made, but something in me claims I should not be enjoying it as much as I do.

First and foremost, of course, is whether Doyle's beliefs really have any basis - will he and Bodie be joined forever?
It didn't occur to me even to question this, actually. But the way I look at these "rest of their lives" sort of things is that a lifetime is, basically, a lifetime. Doyle has Bodie until the end of his (Doyle's) life in either case, whether it's all true and the 'life' is an endless sequence of more lives, or whether it's a delusion and the life is over at the end of the third story..

Then there's the forest, and my questions here run more along the lines of what in the world?!
I know! There's something faintly reminiscent of witch trial accounts of meeting the devil... only I think the devil's touch is bitterly cold, not hot. Stepping from our world into a forest is a fairly common idea though, isn't it?

...are they our (my!) Bodie and Doyle? They both seem pretty fearless, determined, confident - I see our lads in that. But could canon Doyle really kill someone...?
I absolutely can't add anything to golden_bastet's brilliant comments about what causes Doyle to feel remorse or not - very astute, that! But yes, canon Doyle kills when it's him or the other guy all the time, and he's scared in this.

You mention the "apparent calm" - is that not perhaps partly Helen Raven's restrained writing? I often have to slow down reading her stories and remind myself that the emotion is all there: Freezing's another example.

Also, after Bodie returns, even before Doyle agrees that he wants to join Bodie forever, there are comments that suggest that Doyle really is like Bodie - "wants me to change into something I *should* hate" and the exchange '"'is it going to put me off for life?" "Hah. [...] You? Get you going, more like."' Not only that, Doyle knows it really:“Good. He’s [Murphy] a nice lad.” “Yeah. Makes you wonder how he got mixed up with either of us.”. That "either of us" links the pair of them.

I can't think quite how to phrase it, but one idea that is in my mind reading this is how very solitary Doyle is portrayed as being; and so how outside society he is. And it ties in with the idea that Bodie and Doyle both - in 'normal' CI5 Pros fic - are outside society and frequently have little time for the mores and rules of the society they are supposed to protect. Sometimes you can get the feeling that it's only CI5 that keeps them on the right side of *any* lines. And I certainly read Doyle as actively enjoying violence (smashing plates in restaurants, some element of satisfaction during and after fights). And in this story, that's really strongly shown. This Doyle absolutely is similar to Bodie. The pair of them are psychopaths(ETA: hmm, wrong word, what is the word I want?) anyway, they are quite prepared to do anything they feel is justified and that they are right. (“You’re just convinced you’ll get what you want.” “Well, why not?”)

I saw the other comments about working well as original fiction, but I don't see that myself. If I read it as original fiction, I'd want a lot, *lot* more information about the characters to find it credible. Well, "credible", you know what I mean... But I know about the characters in this one, and I am interested enough in them almost despite the horror/supernatural background. (I read both genres generally, but I don't find them a natural match for Pros.)

Wow, what a ramble! Apologies in advance if I don't reply to comments - busy weekend ahead!

PS: apologes for edits - I wish there was a preview box for when I am messing with HTML!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I don't dislike The Tailor Made Sequence, but I'm not sure I can entirely like it either - I think siskiou might have put her finger on it for me - it's such a narrow view of the lads, in the context of the story, that I don't quite have enough of them to hang my belief on... Though I don't think it would work as an original story for me either, without, as you say, alot more to it... And it might be why I don't quite believe in the Doyle who kills Bodie in this - it's not so much the fact that he kills Bodie (who was, in fact, advancing on him when he'd been warned off) as the fact that he calls Murphy for help afterwards, and then wants to have sex with him. In my head I can see why Doyle might do that - bringing himself back to reality, using Murphy to ground himself in the world again - but in my heart... I can't see canon-Doyle doing it. I'm not sure golden_bastet's description of Barry Martin cf Bodie works that way for me either - if anything it perhaps takes me back again...

Stepping from our world into a forest is a fairly common idea though, isn't it?
Yeah, but not so much in Pros... *g*

the "apparent calm" - is that not perhaps partly Helen Raven's restrained writing
I absolutely love Raven's calm style, but I'm not sure it worked for me here - or perhaps it's not that, it's the "narrow view"... I think I may have to blame everything on that, now... *g* And as murphybabe pointed out, not even a flash of their usual humour, they're both so serious... I don't like stories which show them as doing nothing but banter wittily either, but... our lads have a balance that seems missing here...

there are comments that suggest that Doyle really is like Bodie
Yeah, there are hints of that - and I can see it when I look hard enough, but I'm not quite convinced that Bodie's like that to start with, you see... he seems quite cold himself, with none of the humanity we see in him when he's dealing with Frances Cottingham, for instance...

I'm not sure I agree that Bodie and Doyle in canon are so far outside the mores of society, and solitary to themselves either... They're both shown as having comfortable, matey social lives - Bodie with his cricket, and Doyle is often seen chatting to other agents, they go out to restaurants and discos and social events. To me they're very much ordinary people doing an extraordinary job - and that's what makes them fascinating to me. That's who my heroes are, I guess - the ordinary amongst us who are flung into extraordinary circumstances and events, and who retain their humanity through that... Yeah, they enjoy violence, and poking at the people who once poked at them from a place of superiority, and they might be petty sometimes, and selfish at others - but those are all very human traits too... Who doesn't love smashing a plate or two...? *g*

they are quite prepared to do anything they feel is justified and that they are right
Aren't the vast majority of people, though? They just have access to a more extreme means of doing it...

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

'm not sure I agree that Bodie and Doyle in canon are so far outside the mores of society, and solitary to themselves either...
Ah, no, I don't see them as solitary in canon. I was meaning that in this particular story - or collection of stories - I get very little suggestion that Doyle has any kind of social life or ties to wider society. And Helen Raven certainly can write very sociable Doyles: there's a whole cast of his acquaintances in Heat Trace who are some of the memorable I have come across. And then that remarkable psychotic depressive episode, and it's all stripped away and it's just Doyle. And I think the Doyle of Tailor-Made is closer to that stripped-away version than to the Doyle who goes to the pub with other police and to parties given by fellow attenders of night classes.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Ah, I was conflating your comment about them being solitary in the fic, with the idea that Bodie and Doyle both - in 'normal' CI5 Pros fic - are outside society and frequently have little time for the mores and rules of the society they are supposed to protect. Sometimes you can get the feeling that it's only CI5 that keeps them on the right side of *any* lines.

Doyle is a very stripped-away version of himself in Tailor Made, I think - and Bodie too, for all he's a different character anyway - and I think that's what I liked less in this story, that we don't see enough of the rest of their characters, it's quite an insular story really...

[lillianorchid.livejournal.com]

I usually like Horror stories, but I didn't really enjoy this one as much as I thought I would. Bodie and Doyle didn't really feel like our lads to me. That's just my opinion though. The story is very well written, quite original and I think if it were an original fic that I would have liked it more perhaps, but as a Pros-y fic it just didn't work for me. :)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't really have classed this as "horror" myself, though it's definitely got horrific elements...

My opinion agrees with your opinion - it didn't quite feel like the lads to me... I like siskiou's point above, about the narrowness of the story, and how there's not much room for their characters to come through, because everything is a reaction to the story... and murphybabe's point that there aren't really m/any flashes of their usual humour, so that they don't seem quite them...

Not sure that I'd like it more as an original fic - well I might, but as moonlightmead says, I think I'd want alot more to make it stand up, then...

[lillianorchid.livejournal.com]

I agree with Siskiou and Murphybabe about their characters and the humour didn't really get a chance to come through in the story, I think the lads humour and characters are or should be a must for any or most Pros-y stories. Though I will admit it is hard to get them just right when writing AUs. :)

I think I classed it as Horror because of the supernatural elements, back in the day Horror didn't just mean those things at the extreme end of the spectrum but all of those things that fit within the Genre. I mean even today things like Twilight are classed as Horror, just because they have vampires in them, but they're not in the least bit frightening. That's just my opinion though, I know that other people will most probably see it 110% differently to me. :)

I said perhaps I would like it more as an original fic, but as it stands as a Pros fic it didn't work for me. :)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

t is hard to get them just right when writing AUs
Hmmn - I wonder if it really is, or if people perhaps forget that some things need to stay the same in order for stories to still be Pros (or don't believe that they have to be the same, which brings up a whole what-is-Pros-fic-anyway, which is a fun conversation to have! I've seen authors say they purposefully changed something that I considered absolutely vital to the soul of B/D, or CI5 or whatever, because they wanted it differently in their story...)

"Horror" as a definition is a strange one - and hee for defining it as those things that fit within the Genre when what fits within the genre is exactly what we're discussing! *g* To me horror has always been "horrific" things, so something that might not be scary but is full of blood and guts would be horror, but something very scary in a psychological way may not be horror... but as you say, everyone's mileage varies...

[golden-bastet.livejournal.com]

I'm doing a flyby of this page (I'm actually supposed to be emailing my sib), or trying to do a flyby, or,... well, you know.

(or don't believe that they have to be the same, which brings up a whole what-is-Pros-fic-anyway, which is a fun conversation to have! I've seen authors say they purposefully changed something that I considered absolutely vital to the soul of B/D, or CI5 or whatever, because they wanted it differently in their story...)

I was *just* thinking about this. Fic in some sense is necessarily different from canon; how different and *what's* different is going to vary from person to person. I don't think there's a definitive answer to what the line in the sand is, but I'd love to see what other people think about it. There's a good meta discussion to be had here.

Regarding horror: movie-wise, I was never that scared by monsters and such (in big part because they never look realistic - not even close to the uncanny valley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley)). It's the psychological stuff that's really liable to unsettle me (god, The Vanishing still freaks me out, 20+ years on). So psychological horror may be a special case, but I'd still count it as horror.

And because I'd started this elsewhere, but I need to wrap up: Wild Justice is potztausend's post this week, and there's a link there to a discussion about how Bodie is out of character in that episode (http://the-safehouse.livejournal.com/773094.html). Maybe looking at that is a good add-on to whether Bodie here is too out of character (and whether he actually has to be for the story to work).

This *really* should be split into different comments, but I really need to do some work stuff and email my sib. :-(

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Hello flygirl - sorry for the delay... *g*

Fic in some sense is necessarily different from canon
See, I always thought the idea of fanfic is that it was based on canon - an extension of canon, but with the episodes and characterisation as its basis. I have discovered that not everyone things that at all! *g* It really would be an interesting discussion, and I think we've tried to have it in the past, and not come to any conclusions... maybe it's time to try it again! As you say, it could be fascinating!

And you've no doubt seen siskiou's extension post to the WJ/out of character debate (http://the-safehouse.livejournal.com/1344365.html) over at the_safehouse - I hope lots of people will jump in, because that should be interesting too!

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

This story really didn't work for me, maybe because of the questionable ending. Maybe in original fic I don't mind the "did it happen or didn't it?" (and even then only in certain circumstances,) but not in fanfiction. I want them together at the end and I want it to be a sure thing. *g*

And while close, the characters really aren't "my" Bodie and Doyle.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

So you're a happy-endings-only person in fanfic, then? I must admit, I like a happy ending, but I think they're made sweeter when you can't be entirely sure that's going to happen - and to have that speck of uncertainty, there have to be some fics that keep you wondering...

What is it about the characters here that make them not your Bodie and Doyle? Is it something missing, something that shouldn't be there, or...?

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

I think my biggest problem was both their involvements with Murphy. I've never cared for stories where one or the other is with someone else to begin with (though some writers have made it work really well,) especially, as with Doyle, the scene seems superfluous. Plus, and this is something I can't actually pin down, but somehow it doesn't sound like them most of the time. There's something about the words they use, or their speech patterns—something.

Oh, and I meant to ask, did you see the comment I added to your (very) old post about "Angel In the Dark"?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yes, I've got to admit that I'm not keen on stories where other agents are gay, and/or fancy one of the lads, or are involved with them - though as you say, some writers can pull it off. And I know why people choose Murphy as a secondary character, but... I'm just a bit bored with him...

Raven does have a particular style about their speech patterns - I always think they say "Oh-" at the beginning of sentences too often, for instance - but I can generally sink into that cos the stories work well otherwise, and I can see where she's coming from with the characters. I can see it less in this though, I think - there's enough there that it's not totally out of character, but I think we don't see enough of them outside the storyline for me to be completely convinced, and so perhaps the speech patterns have less to hold onto...

And yes! I did see your comment, and the notification is waiting in my inbox for me to go and reply, and I've just finished my January marking-madness, so I shall go and look it up again tomorrow! Mind you, I need to re-read Angel in the Dark too, I think! *g*

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Ooh. Angel in the Dark? I believe I have my own copy of this heading to me in the post. I've just tried to find this old post about Angel in the Dark and I can't. I found one on CI5HQ via the tag list - http://ci5hq.livejournal.com/51676.html - but that doesn't look to have any new comments. Is your comment to a public post?

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

It's on byslantedlight's lj here: http://byslantedlight.livejournal.com/28797.html

I found it through the Palely Loitering (http://www.palelyloitering.com/) website, which is a great reference site.

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Aha, thanks!

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Also, I've never cared for stories where one or the other is with someone else to begin with (though some writers have made it work really well,)

Ooh, I love the ones where one or the other (or both) is with someone else initially, or there is tension along those lines. Kate Maclean's Scenes from the Edge springs immediately to mind, but I'm guessing that's not likely to be a favourite of yours. And there's a great one by Sally Fell - Never The Same Again. And... well, actually, you probably know them all as well as me, they just won't be your thing :)

What I can't see is either of them with Murphy...

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

Well, I think the situation has a lot to do with it (and I agree totally with the Murphy thing.) One of my favorite stories is Rimy's "Handy Pandy, Out Goes the Rat." As you say, it can create tension. But too often there isn't a reason given as to why either Bodie or Doyle is with the other person (as there is in Rimy's story.) They're usually not much more than a place holders. And especially when the other person is a fellow agent, it plays too much into the "everyone's gay" scenario.

I guess it comes down to me not being able to imagine either wanting to be with anyone else. *g*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

it plays too much into the "everyone's gay" scenario
That's exactly my problem with some stories - maybe it's partly the slashfic perspective that affects it, because it's not so unlikely that there'll be more than two gay agents in CI5. But it's so often Murphy (who's apparently everyone's third-favourite anyway), or Cowley himself (ditto), which just seems a bit too much of a coincidence...

Or perhaps it's that when there's another gay agent involved with them, they're all so open about it - when back then I really don't think it would have been good for anyone in CI5 to be openly (or just known to be) gay...