I was thinking...

[golden-bastet.livejournal.com]

Uh-oh.

Actually, I was reading a recently mentioned story in which Bodie kills Doyle. It was interesting, and I think I get where the author was going with it, though it’s not quite the B & D I see.

But thinking about it: Bodie and Doyle are trained to use lethal force (mainly using firearms); they know martial arts (at a time where I guess people thought of them as more lethal than they normally are); Bodie did who knows what during his mercenary days; and Doyle did knife someone as a kid.

Not saying that they couldn't, and it has made for some very interesting fanfic; I haven't read the novelizations, but would Bodie or Doyle really crush someone's windpipe? Break a neck with their bare hands? Gut someone like a fish?

Or does that cross a line that each man drew for himself when he joined CI5?

For me that this adds a whole 'nuther dimension to who B & D are - because I think that's one of the underlying conflicts of the show. They don't enjoy killing, and even Bodie tends not to take killing lightly. (His near-murder of King Billy was very much for a logical reason.) So just when would they use that force? You'd probably have to be a bit closer to McKay than the average bear to be in CI5, but by just how much?

*What* would make them cross that line?

As I said, I was thinking about it. Any accompanying thoughts are welcome. :D

Comments

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh, morning thinky-thoughts - brilliant! *g* (Except that I'm going to be away from my computer for the rest of the day shortly - rats!)

There's an article somewhere, where either MS or LC describes the way they were trained for the show in various fields, and one of them was in unarmed combat, where they were taught (or shown, anyway!) how to kill a man with their bare hands. LC (I think it was) came away quite affected by the fact that they'd been shown, for example, places on the head where a single relatively light blow could kill someone, and that their instructor could do that. So from a practical pov, Bodie and Doyle must surely have been trained to do that too, and if they were trained to do it, then they must have accepted the fact that they might have to do it one day...

But would they? I think I know the story you mean (Sunshine (http://www.thecircuitarchive.com/tca/archive/1/sunshine.html) by Castalia, right?), and it's a good story, and there's very specific justification given for the ending, but... no, I can't quite believe it would happen like that either. It's not Bodie killing Doyle with his bare hands that bothers me though, it's him reacting that way at all - it's a stretch too far for me, I can't see anything in canon that would back it up, and lots that suggests the opposite (otherwise I wouldn't be here slashing them... *g*)

I guess I've always thought that the "special" in "Cowley's special men" referred to the fact that they're both trained to kill (do you have to be mad to undertake that - if so, we should be very worried about anyone in the military, who've all accepted that it's something they might be told to do) but also trained with the knowledge and understanding to make a judgement about when to do it on the streets of London (as opposed to in army battle situations). And that's the controversial bit, because Doyle and a civilian could both make a judgement about having to kill someone, based on the same knowledge of the situation, but Doyle could do it legally, whereas the civilian would be done for murder, no matter how justified that murder was. But the idea is that Doyle has been trained in how and when and why to do it legally...

I'm not sure Bodie's decision to kill King Billy is logical though - I thought the idea was that he was out for revenge because BIlly's gang had killed members of his old squad... but perhaps it's relevant that he was using what was presumably a recognised "hold" to do it - Cowley says "If you finish that neck lock". So I wonder if using specific combat moves would be more like using a weapon to them than actually, for example, strangling someone with their bare hands? It'd be a more automatic thing - judgement: this person is a danger to the wider world; decision: can only be stopped by killing him; action: use weapon (gun/combat move 29/head against wall) to do it.

I'm not sure they've drawn lines for themselves before joining CI5 either... Doyle said he joined the police to get some discipline, but he's clearly still comfortable using violence and killing people - he just wants someone else to tell him that it's okay. Bodie says he joined the mercs for money, and in The Rack he's perfectly comfortable not knowing how many people he's killed: Look, when you throw a grenade in the bush, I mean, how do you know how many guys you killed?. I tend to think that they both crossed that line into being able to kill a long time ago, that they've accepted it in themselves, but at some point made a decision to do it for "good" rather than for their own gain.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Hmmn - thinking about it, no, I can't see either of them killing someone with their bare hands via something like strangulation, but only because they've also been trained not to. That's quite a cold-blooded way to kill someone, it'd take time, even past the stage of unconsciousnes, and if part of our lads' training is to know when people need to be stopped, then they'd know that they only need to disable someone for that to be accomplished, and once someone's unconscious, then that's the job done. To take it further then would be murder. And that's why Cowley trusts them.... and that's why they look so shocked at the end of Need to Know when Cowley does kill Manton in cold blood when he could simply have been disabled.

That said - how close is Doyle to throwing Tony off the tower block? Cos that would have been pretty premeditated, albeit done in rage... and he's thrown people down from heights in other episodes too, though you could argue it was in the heat of a fight.

Oh, and damn, I have to go - but interesting question! And I agree, it is one of the things that's fascinating about our lads... that edge of danger to them...

[golden-bastet.livejournal.com]

I'm going to have to come back to this, but: the King Billy situation was revenge, and the rules of the jungle were driving Bodie to settle it the way he almost did.

BUT - in England, if Bodie provoked a confrontation, he could at least claim self-defense, whereas just going up and shooting the man would be interpreted as cold-blooded murder. (Which it would be.)

I don't think Bodie's resolution was right (and actually I'm not sure he was conciously thinking that rationally), but I do think there was a sort of logic underlying it.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

the rules of the jungle were driving Bodie to settle it the way he almost did
Hmmn - I'm not sure that's any more than fanon though... are we going to say that Bodie lives by the rules of the jungle even though he's back home in London, in civilisation? I'm not sure we see evidence of that in the other eps - or even in this one... Does he want revenge on King Billy because of some "law of the jungle", or because Billy's killing mates and colleagues of his? Presumably he thinks, as the girl does, that there's no legal way for the situation to be resolved, so he takes it into his own hands - but I'm not sure that's "law of the jungle" rather than "one man's law"...

I'm not sure that Bodie could claim self defence for killing Billy either, if he provoked the fight in the first place (you say "in England" though, as if you've looked that up somewhere?) That'd mean that anyone could go up to someone with the intention of murdering them them, provoke a fight, and then claim that it was self defence... Over here, you can't even kill someone who's breaking into your house and claim self defence, you've got to claim reasonable force, too (even under the new law, which wasn't in force back then anyway - killing a burglar then was also murder).

The only logic I can see in Bodie's attack on Billy is he's killed my mates - the police can't stop him - he'll kill more - I'll have to stop him myself...

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

What a nice question for a peaceful snowbound Sunday morning! :-)

"...but would Bodie or Doyle really crush someone's windpipe? Break a neck with their bare hands? Gut someone like a fish?"
The last one I think not. As BSL pointed it out "I can't see either of them killing someone with their bare hands via something like strangulation, but only because they've also been trained not to. That's quite a cold-blooded way to kill someone, it'd take time, even past the stage of unconsciousnes..." I agree and to "gut someone" is probably as well not very quick and no 'safe bet' I could imagine...
But I think they would "crush someone's windpipe, or break a neck with their bare hands", if there would be a situation in a battle when each 'just hurt' enemy would be too dangerous - if not for their own life but for the life/the security of Joe Public.
Yes I believe that they are trained to kill. And if there is a need to, they do it with their bare hands.

But I think there is still a line. Their personal line, but also on the job.

Cowley does the executions!

(does Annie's lover count? -Cowley doesn't warn him).
I remember one story where Bodie was Cowley's secret killer - but the story couldn't convince me that both are that ruthless.

Yes, I believe there is a line for the three of them!
Somewhere... ;-)

[golden-bastet.livejournal.com]

Yes, I agree - for the job they might do it, given no choice they might do it, if the other were in danger they might do it. But not as a starting point, and not unneedlessly ruthlessly.

And I guess that was my thought about the story: that isn't the Bodie in my head, not in those circumstances.

And maybe the line they draw is what interested them in joining CI5, rather than the other way around. They likely were headed in that direction anyway - heck, Doyle joined the Met - and could have come to that point without ever meeting Mr. Cowley.

But I don't think they're not ruthless because they've been trained not to be; they actually have some leeway in their jobs that they feel tempted to but don't always take. The training helped refine it, but I think they're not (normally) ruthless because that is who they are. They only become ruthless when forced to be.

So we all hope Ruth is around all the time. :D
:bad joke:

I need to check on Cowley, I don't remember those episodes. :(

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

I'm assuming that when agents are trained to kill they are also trained not to kill - to know exactly when to draw back and make sure the villain survives to be interrogated/punished/whatever. If they used their skills, including skills maybe learnt earlier, to kill, it would not usually be in the best interests of CI5. Obviously, as with anyone, killing might be necessary in self defence or immediate defence of someone else. (That's a defence to the charge of murder). But I think they'd be trained to make instant judgements about that kind of thing. So no, I don't think either of them would ever kill in a long drawn out fashion - strangling or gutting - any more than a soldier would (legitimately). Immediate blows or pressure on certain pressure points, perhaps, but only in immediate danger. They would have to be trained never to act as judge or jury, so it would always be instinctive for them to draw back and leave the other person alive if at all possible. Cowley, of course, clearly does feel empowered to act as judge and jury, so that's a different issue.

[nypagan.livejournal.com]

So just when would they use that force? *What* would make them cross that line?

Most likely in revenge for the death of the other? If either Bodie or Doyle is believed dead and the survivor is confronted with the killer, I imagine revenge would be a highly motivating factor.

I agree that Bodie doesn't take killing lightly. Although, with King Billy he may have been willing to make an exception. When he found the boy in Takeaway dead, he appeared upset by it. He would more likely be able to kill with his bare hands than Doyle would, IMO.

There is a story that I can't remember the title of right now, with Ray in hospital. Bodie is with him, leaves in the night dressed in black and sneaks into a secure area to kill the men who had harmed Doyle. I think he used a gun, but it may have been strangulation/suffocation.

Yes, there is a line. Given the circumstances, motivation and opportunity, that line could be crossed. I don't see getting up close and personal about it a deterrent.

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

I think Doyle felt what he did as a kid was wrong, and wanted to not go down that route. Hence he joined the Police, to get discipline and work for the "good". I still wonder what his childhood was really like.
Bodie seems to think Doyle is a veritable innocent, sometimes, compared to himself, when it comes to experience (or is that more fanfiction?).

And I assume Bodie made a similar decision at some point in his life, too.

I think, both would do anything necessary to stay alive, or to protect the public, each other etc., but I don't see them use their skills in cold blood, when their are other, non-lethal ways to accomplish their goal, somehow.

[golden-bastet.livejournal.com]

I don't see them use their skills in cold blood, when their are other, non-lethal ways to accomplish their goal, somehow.

Yes, I totally agree with that. And I think it's because of their personalities.

The times that Cowley castigates them because they've killed a person of interest, they've killed more because of an immediate threat, rather than playing Cowboys and Indians.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I feel like Doyle - I want to spit out "everyone's a person of interest!" *g*