Reading Room - The Choosing by Kate Maclean - continued...

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Discussion about last week's Reading Room story carried on through the week, and moved away from the idea of the minor characters, and since siskiou said she'd like to look more closely at it, and see how other people interpreted things, and since we've no new Reading Room this week, I thought we might continue here. So, some points/questions from siskiou's comment here, copied to this new post, and my responses under them - and if anyone else would like to join in, you're very welcome!

Siskiou - Bodie's internal thoughts about Doyle still make me wonder why on earth he wants to be with him.
Slantedlight - Bodie answers this one himself, I think! And it wasn't just his face or his body anyway; it was other things. His brilliance at the job - that mattered to Bodie - his vicious, sometimes silly sense of humour; his soft side; that ferocious conscience of his; his absolute determination to get what he wanted. And of course, his coolness; a detachment that challenged the world to interest him. Bodie had never been able to resist that challenge for long.

Siskiou - the last line could refer to Cowley/Ann/Marion/Leimann not getting what *they* wanted, but am not quite sure it isn't Bodie questioning if having is as good as wanting.
Slantedlight - I'm not sure that Bodie thinks wanting is good, though... He's seen wanting as a time when someone is hurt, first his father for wanting his mother too much, then Lindsay, Marion and Cowley for wanting him, and Ann and Doyle for wanting each other - it's not gone well for any of them. Don't we see him hating the fact that he wants Doyle so much, and being sure that he'll be rejected in his turn?

Siskiou - we only get filtered views of Doyle that make him look like a thoroughly unpleasant chap most of the time. Even when he is "nice", it's tinged with undertones of such a degree of selfishness. It's what he says and how he says it.... Do you have some examples where we get glimpses of the "real" Doyle?
Slantedlight - I do think that we only see that "nasty" Doyle because we're looking through the filter of Bodie's insecurities, though I also think that Doyle does have a bit of side to him sometimes... (I've mentioned some of these in the reply I started to the original comment - and note that it does depend how we each see "the real Doyle" to start with!):

“…And however much you wish to deny it, you jeopardized the operation." His voice rose as he glared into Doyle's equally furious face. "I repeat - you put your partner's well-being before that of the people you were supposed to protect."
The first thing we find out about in the story is that Doyle put Bodie above everything and everyone else, and is furious that Cowley expects him to have done otherwise.

Doyle cuddled up, snuffling, next to him when he'd spent the night; or he looked up at Doyle's face, scrunched in exquisite, possessive anguish as he fucked him again and again
Doyle cuddles up to Bodie, and is "possessive" of him in bed.

but when Bodie walked over and finally stood in front of him, the aura of calm melted like snow in water. When he pushed away from the wall he didn't meet Bodie's eyes, and his nervousness was now very clear to a partner who knew him so well.
Doyle is unsure about things - including Bodie - too. He didn't just coldly choose Ann and then ignore Bodie at the restaurant - or at least he realises not, when he's had a chance to process what happened...

"Bodie ... I'm ... look, I'm sorry." Bodie closed his eyes and found he could say nothing. The silence stretched. "I just ... couldn't ..." It sounded almost desperate..."Told you at the beginning ..." Bodie drawled. "Never get involved. Shit, Bodie, don't use this as an excuse to shut yourself away behind that nutter's mask you use ..." ... "Stop fucking interrupting! I don't know exactly how I feel and I like ... I ... like being with you too." ... He saw a twitch of protest, but he stopped any interruption. "You've been pining after her since she left. You don't need me any more." It sounded final, and Bodie sensed Doyle heard just that. "Bodie ..." softly, almost helpless, then he was silent, and to Bodie that sounded final too. Bodie turned back to his magazine, and it seemed it was settled.
Here it's Doyle trying to talk, and to say that he's confused and doesn't want to just forget about Bodie - it's actually Bodie who railroads him into trying to say that he should choose Ann (just as he does in the car, in Involvement, come to think of it - it's Bodie who says "Thought you were going to say you were getting married", and Doyle just retorts "Well I might just do that", which sounds to me more like Bodie trying to push things).

then, Doyle stood there, his gaze going straight to Marion. Bodie saw his eyes widen, then narrow, but he couldn't read the other man's expression... "Marion. I'm Ray. Bodie's partner." Doyle was smiling, ushering them in, accepting the bottles Bodie thrust at him, but there was something restrained, almost cool, about him. Bodie didn't want to even attempt to analyse why. ...Bodie got the feeling that Doyle didn't much like Marion; one of Ray's instant, unshakeable judgements. ...Ann was smiling too, apparently unoffended, but Doyle - Doyle was looking at him with some emotion Bodie could not decipher...
Little clues, at the dinner party, that Doyle isn't happy about Marion, that Bodie's replaced him...

Siskiou - Here and in canon, he tends to put down Doyle's looks in favor of his own. Is this where KM's Bodie's insecurity about his looks come from? Is canon Bodie insecure about his looks? Is Doyle?
Slantedlight - I've never thought they were insecure from canon, although they do put each other down - and Bodie puts Doyle down more, perhaps... or at least talks himself up ("tall, dark, and..." *g*). But I don't think either of them are serious, it's just the way blokes tease each other over here, they don't mean it literally - but I don't think they mean the opposite either, in most cases, I don't think it covers anything else. So I'm not sure whether Maclean might have extrapolated the attitude from canon, or just taken it as something that people think about the person they fancy - that they're beautiful and sexy...

He sometimes does in canon, when Bodie sweeps him along, while Doyle just wanted to relax at home. Does Bodie accommodate Doyle's wishes, sometimes?
Hmmn... I think Bodie does, just in different ways - he appears to hang around with Doyle in WtHCO, for instance, and accede to Doyle's wishes, and in HH as well... I think they both do it for each other, actually... *sighs happily*

Siskiou - It's a time of intense jealousy and grief for Bodie, but it still feels as if he dislikes a lot more about Doyle than he likes. And he doesn't trust him.
Slantedlight - See, I read that not as Bodie actually disliking or distrusting Doyle, but as Bodie being so insecure about it all, because of his own background and so the assumptions that he jumps to, that he picks out all the negative things, and doesn't really give Doyle a chance to make things any different... He doesn't trust that Doyle would choose him over Ann, because that's not what he's ever done himself - he didn't choose Lindsay, for instance - and his father didn't choose his mother, and so on...

Siskiou - Here is Cowley, making Doyle out to be a really unlikeable person, cold and insincere. Of course, he loves Bodie in this story, so would see him in a much better light, but while Cowley seems to expect more from Doyle in canon, I never got the impression he disliked him
Slantedlight - I think we're being shown the Cowley/Doyle relationship a bit differently in this story, it's true - Cowley is effectively confessing his feelings to Bodie, and showing that he's disappointed Bodie chose Doyle, so even if only subconsciously he's probably wanting to attack Doyle in some way, show him he made the wrong choice... At the beginning, Bodie notices that Cowley's been ragging harder on Doyle - I wonder if that coincides with Cowley seeing that Bodie has chosen Doyle, perhaps... And actually in canon there is an ep where Cowley seems particularly hard on Doyle - he snaps at him a few times in Ojuka, enough to have made me wonder what's going on before now! *g*

Siskiou - "...because Ray never forgot or forgave" (Hm, really?)
Slantedlight - I think we do have some canon for this too - he's quite vicious to the two cops in Takeaway, even though they're only playing the same role that he's played before himself. You'd think he might understand that - but no, there's that little light in his eyes when he sees who it is, and he insists on being the one to deal with them - to the point of rubbing mud in their faces, and mocking them in return... That was always quite a strong image to me, so I can see how Maclean (and other authors) might have decided Doyle was on the vengeful side!

Some other things I pulled out (Slantedlight):
For me, Maclean virtually sums up the story in Bodie's next, very clear thoughts:
Of course Ray was nervous and uncomfortable. Bodie knew he cared about him; didn't want to hurt him - Ray wouldn't want to hurt anyone he liked.
He just couldn't help it. Any more than Bodie could help his own wounds.
Even Bodie's acknowledging that what was happening was about both Doyle's and Bodie's "own wounds", that it wasn't purposeful in any unkind, malicious way.

In the restaurant (with Bodie's interpretation of it taken out):
Doyle seemed to focus on him at last, and Bodie saw something like realisation on his face - of what he was doing; of how he must seem to Bodie. He looked down, and then back up again, this time with a tiny smile that was rueful.
"Sorry, mate. Bit of a shock seeing her. Without warning ... you know?"
Doyle admits that he's been thrown by seeing Ann, that he's been distracted - does Bodie acknowledge this, do something to help Doyle, such as gently suggest they go elsewhere? No - because he's too caught up in his own feelings. Doyle makes an effort - but I don't get the impression that Bodie makes any effort back, it takes a while until Bodie "loosens up, joins in", and so things are able to escalate. Perhaps if he'd made an effort to charm Doyle back, to remind him that what he had now was so much better, Doyle would haven't been as re-drawn to Ann. But of course the story is about how Bodie's own psychology and internal insecurities affect the two of them...

And because a couple of people said that we don't see anything of the lads' normal light-heartedness in this, or their banter - I found some! They've just arrived at the restaurant (where only Bodie knows they're celebrating their 4-month anniversary) and they're following the rather supercilious waiter to their table:
"For some of us," Bodie replied loftily, "these are everyday surroundings."
Doyle's mouth twitched into a tiny grin as Bodie grinned back.
Bodie turned to watch the waiter's black-clad, middle-aged bottom mince and sway in front of them. "Mind you," he gestured with his head toward the older man, "reckon he thinks we've been savin' up our whole lives to come here, way he looked at us ..."
Doyle's smirk widened. "Well, can 'ardly blame him, mate ..." He was trying, Bodie noticed, to sound fair. "... all that black leather ..." Doyle shook his head and tutted sadly. "God only knows what 'e thinks you do for a living."

So... personally I think that the issues we see in Choosing aren't there because either of the lads is cruel or malicious or has some kind of control or superiority over the other. Neither Doyle nor Bodie are doing any more than face the world (and each other) with their own private demons lined up behind them, prepared to charge - and this is just one of the ways it could be... before they live happily ever after - or as happily as two human beings can ever be together... *g*

Comments

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

So glad this is continuing, because I have totally missed commenting on the last one - and the one before that - and the one before that - and in fact nearly everything in a topic that I actually voted for and suggested about eight titles for.

Embarrassment all round. I promise. I shall return with comments. Honestly. Soon!

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

I wish answering LJ posts was as easy as it is on a mailing list! All this copying and pasting...

Siskiou - Bodie's internal thoughts about Doyle still make me wonder why on earth he wants to be with him.
Slantedlight - Bodie answers this one himself, I think! And it wasn't just his face or his body anyway; it was other things. His brilliance at the job - that mattered to Bodie - his vicious, sometimes silly sense of humour; his soft side; that ferocious conscience of his; his absolute determination to get what he wanted. And of course, his coolness; a detachment that challenged the world to interest him. Bodie had never been able to resist that challenge for long.

Siskiou - That's the list I meant in an earlier post, but there are actually a lot of adjectives that aren't necessarily positive:
vicious humor (implying meanness, imo) , ferocious conscience (implying he goes overboard), absolute determination to get what he wants (selfishness), coolness and detachment (no warmth or closeness?).

Siskiou - the last line could refer to Cowley/Ann/Marion/Leimann not getting what *they* wanted, but am not quite sure it isn't Bodie questioning if having is as good as wanting.
Slantedlight - I'm not sure that Bodie thinks wanting is good, though... He's seen wanting as a time when someone is hurt, first his father for wanting his mother too much, then Lindsay, Marion and Cowley for wanting him, and Ann and Doyle for wanting each other - it's not gone well for any of them. Don't we see him hating the fact that he wants Doyle so much, and being sure that he'll be rejected in his turn?

Siskiou - You're right! He resents his intense feelings and sees them as a weakness. It's just that his body language at the end does not spell that there are happier times ahead of them, in Bodie's mind.

Slantedlight - I do think that we only see that "nasty" Doyle because we're looking through the filter of Bodie's insecurities, though I also think that Doyle does have a bit of side to him sometimes... (I've mentioned some of these in the reply I started to the original comment - and note that it does depend how we each see "the real Doyle" to start with!):

Well, yes, they both have their nasty "moments", but neither is a nasty person in general.
I also don't believe Cowley and his co-workers would describe Doyle as an aloof, cold and extremely selfish person, who doesn't give of himself.
He may be more introverted than Bodie, and enjoy some time by himself, but that doesn't mean he is not a likeable person.
This is a trait we see Doyle have in a number of stories: the loner, who keeps himself apart, or is disliked by many, and he usually is accompanied buy an irresistible Bodie, whom everyone loves (men, women, kids, pets *g*). I do sometimes wonder if I've missed a number of episodes, where Doyle turns into his evil twin, and treats Bodie abysmally.
There was even one story where Marge only pretended she didn't like Bodie (because she immediately knew he was very sensitive), but it turned out she actually loved him, and disliked Doyle.

How do you see the "real" Doyle? I'd love to hear some opinions! From LJ, forums and lists, I get the impression that Bodie is generally dearly loved and rarely criticized, be it looks, personality or behavior, while Doyle is not nearly so lucky. For some, the dislike appears to come from disliking the actor for various reasons, and I've seen some history about Bodie being written like a brainless brute in some early stories, and other writers "came to his rescue", so to speak.

This post is getting long, and I need a coffee break, so I'll be back later!
Hopefully there are a few people still interested in discussing. :)

[franciskerst.livejournal.com]

It's sure I, unwillingly, appear to have developed, from some articles and interviews, a streak of antipathy towards Martin Shaw, the actor, which has spread to my view of Doyle, the character. it's illogical and unfair but I can't help it. That also probably played a part in my change of a favourite pairing.

However there are scenes in the show that may lead to a more egocentric and bossy Doyle. He seems more sensitive towards principles or personal points of honor than persons; he doesn't trust people he should know better (even Cowley!) while Bodie is loyal and caring unconditionally. I couldn't give a lot of precise examples: it's just an impression, which seem to be widely shared among the writers and readers.

Anyway I am OK with that: flaws make a character more interesting, not less. I like better Murphy, as a person (in most fics because he is scarce in the eps) but he wouldn't have made as good a partner for Bodie. The cheese and chalk factor is working just fine.

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

Oh, hi! I had half thought everyone had moved on! Nice to see you!

I understand how a character can get contaminated by the feelings you have about the actor. I'm always glad that I seem to not get infatuated with actors. It makes life so much easier!

And yes, if the characters were perfect in every way, we'd all be bored and rolling our eyes.
They all have their moments that make us wonder, and their unpleasant sides.
Imo, Doyle shares a lot more of himself than Bodie does, so we see more of his layers, the kind and sometimes not so kind.
Bodie, not so much, so with him a lot of it is guess work, and it's easier to write him differently.
And Murphy is so bland in canon, that he seems the perfect stand-in for a writer who needs another agent.

Doyle not trusting seems perfectly understandable to me, with his background. Especially when it comes to authority figures.
And now I have to run. Going on an afternoon trip with the family...

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Aaaack - sorry, I go and post and then vanish, not good...

I wish answering LJ posts was as easy as it is on a mailing list! All this copying and pasting...
Yeah, but the other side of it is that mailing lists are such a bugger to read - especially when people don't bother cutting anything, and you get 500 posts of "Oh, me too!" and the like at the bottom of anything... *g*

but there are actually a lot of adjectives that aren't necessarily positive:
vicious humor (implying meanness, imo) , ferocious conscience (implying he goes overboard), absolute determination to get what he wants (selfishness), coolness and detachment (no warmth or closeness?).
I suppose it depends how you read them - I would't necessarily think a "ferocious" conscience was "overboard" for instance, just very strong and constantly with him; absolute determination doesn't necessarily imply selfishness - that would depend on what it was that he wanted; and "coolness and detachment" would be considered good qualities in many situations, especially police/CI5-work, so... But it's always going to depend on how we read individual words, and what they mean to us of course... The other side of the coin is, what does that tell us about Bodie? That description was actually what Bodie loved about Doyle, so...?

It's just that his body language at the end does not spell that there are happier times ahead of them, in Bodie's mind.
Having thought about it a bit more, I wonder if again it tells us more about Bodie than about the situation, though - Bodie struggled before to accept that Doyle's love might be genuine, and he had a tendency in the story to see things through the filter of his own negative past experience when he thought about them. So yes, this might indicate that he still has that issue - it's not been magically solved, and when Doyle's out of the room Bodie still worries, but... I quite like that, and I don't think it necessarily means that things won't be okay in the future, just that things are real rather than just fairytale...

but neither is a nasty person in general
No, I don't think they are either - they both have their dark sides, and I'm always interested in how they cope with those, or how they react when other people cope with them though - maybe that's one reason I like this story! *g*

I also don't believe ... Doyle as an aloof, cold and extremely selfish person, who doesn't give of himself
No, I agree! There are a number of stories that suggest this in Doyle, although I'm not 100% sure this is one of them really... I can see Cowley being resentful of him in this story because Bodie's chosen Doyle when Cowley wanted him too (actually what I can't see is everyone in CI5 being gay... *g*) and in Ojuka he's quite snappy at Doyle on a number of occasions, but actually I think we see Doyle being much more friendly with people in canon than we do Bodie. We see that he gets on well with Jax and Benny and Cookie, for instance, and he's quite often clapping someone on the shoulder or back, or we see him leaving to join Bodie after he's been chatting with another agent, and I always get a very human impression about it all. Conversely we rarely see Bodie in any of those situations - he says he had a drink with Fraser one night, in Stakeout, but he doesn't often seem to be just chatting to other agents... I wonder if it's cos we tend to see Bodie trying to drag Doyle to the pub, or Bodie being the one who's reluctant to leave a pub, so he's subconsciously associated with being more mate-y and sociable? Mind you, it's a bit like the Doyle-is-a-skinflint thing too - we see Doyle paying for things far more often than we do Bodie, but it's actually Doyle who's often portrayed in fic as tight with money! That always bugs me... *g*

There was even one story where Marge only pretended she didn't like Bodie (because she immediately knew he was very sensitive), but it turned out she actually loved him, and disliked Doyle.
Ohmygawd - no, I haven't read that one, and quite glad not to have!

Suspect I'm going to run out of comment-box...

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

How do you see the "real" Doyle? I'd love to hear some opinions! From LJ, forums and lists, I get the impression that Bodie is generally dearly loved and rarely criticized, be it looks, personality or behavior, while Doyle is not nearly so lucky.
Excellent question - and yes, I get the same impression... I think it may have been almost the opposite many years ago, and as you say we're seeing a reaction against that now - though it seems to have been going on for a long time...

I see Doyle as... wanting to connect with people, just in general. He not only seems to generally have a girlfriend on the go (though it's Bodie he adores really, of course... *g*) but as I said above we often see him having just been chatting with someone, and I get the impression that he's friends with alot of the other agents. We're told he was friends with Cookie and his wife, and also with Morgan and Alice - to the point he went to their child's christening. He seems to have been friendly with Benny (especially if Benny's not even CI5 at first - and does that suggest that, as with Cookie, he recommended him for CI5?).

He's actually generous with his money - we see him buying drinks and meals much more often than Bodie, even if he does take part in the time-honoured tradition of complaining about things like pay and expenses (though it's also often Bodie who starts those conversations...)

He's actually rather clumsy about women in a number of situations, lets himself be fooled by them - though he's successful with them in other ways, obviously! But then he was quite bossy with Ann when he went back to her place, and he can be quite patronising too (I never know if he's genuine about warning Susan to be careful when it's assumed that he and Bodie'll be strong enough to handle things, in Purging!)

He's not above teasing Bodie - in SoTM when he turns around and says "No, I was here first...", or when he pulls open the car door Bodie's sleeping against, or kicks the sofa to wake him up - but he's also quite soft with him, and understanding at times (over Fraser, for instance)... and of course Bodie's got the same kind of streak back, though it comes out in different ways - he gets him to capitulate to Susie-the-judo-girl when he knows that won't work, he drives extra-fast in... whatever ep it is (*g*) to annoy Doyle...

Rats - work calls, will come back later, I promise!

(Might be fun to make a separate post about the impressions people have of the *characters* - maybe even at Safehouse, and maybe one at a time? So a post about Doyle, and then one about Bodie - see how people do view them?!)

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

and "coolness and detachment" would be considered good qualities in many situations, especially police/CI5-work, so... But it's always going to depend on how we read individual words, and what they mean to us of course... The other side of the coin is, what does that tell us about Bodie? That description was actually what Bodie loved about Doyle, so...?

True about cool and detached being a good quality for their work, except in canon I don't really see Doyle doing this very much. More the opposite: getting emotionally involved, temper ...

And now I wonder if the Bodie in this story is *your* Bodie? Is he wracked with insecurity and everything we see on the outside is just an act?

Darn, all staff meeting today, so no more time right now! School starts tomorrow! :)

[siskiou.livejournal.com]

“…And however much you wish to deny it, you jeopardized the operation." His voice rose as he glared into Doyle's equally furious face. "I repeat - you put your partner's well-being before that of the people you were supposed to protect."
The first thing we find out about in the story is that Doyle put Bodie above everything and everyone else, and is furious that Cowley expects him to have done otherwise.

Siskiou - Yes, interesting reaction from Cowley. He should be grateful his love interest is safe, but he is hard on Doyle anyhow, because Bodie has chosen Doyle and not Cowley?
Or is this Cowley being impartial, despite his feelings?

Siskiou - Here and in canon, he tends to put down Doyle's looks in favor of his own. Is this where KM's Bodie's insecurity about his looks come from? Is canon Bodie insecure about his looks? Is Doyle?
Slantedlight - I've never thought they were insecure from canon, although they do put each other down - and Bodie puts Doyle down more, perhaps... or at least talks himself up ("tall, dark, and..." *g*). But I don't think either of them are serious, it's just the way blokes tease each other over here, they don't mean it literally - but I don't think they mean the opposite either, in most cases, I don't think it covers anything else. So I'm not sure whether Maclean might have extrapolated the attitude from canon, or just taken it as something that people think about the person they fancy - that they're beautiful and sexy...

In the story, I had the feeling that KM wanted us to question whether Doyle really knew that Bodie thought of him as beautiful and sexy.
Mostly, I've thought of both of them as confident regarding their image, but in canon, Bodie also reacts offended when a woman (Susan) calls Ray good-looking, and Doyle is not around, so maybe there is something to Bodie wanting to be seen as more handsome than his partner.

I think they both do it for each other, actually... *sighs happily*
I agree! That's why I love the show and their relationship. Give and take, in different ways, and none of that 20/80, with Bodie feeling he loves more, or being the faithful dog.

Slantedlight - See, I read that not as Bodie actually disliking or distrusting Doyle, but as Bodie being so insecure about it all, because of his own background and so the assumptions that he jumps to, that he picks out all the negative things, and doesn't really give Doyle a chance to make things any different... He doesn't trust that Doyle would choose him over Ann, because that's not what he's ever done himself - he didn't choose Lindsay, for instance - and his father didn't choose his mother, and so on...

I've lost track somehow, with the choosing. What do you mean with Bodie's father not choosing his mother?
Bodie doesn't trust Doyle to choose him, but when Doyle *does*, he is very easily lead to think it will not last and Doyle will betray him.

And actually in canon there is an ep where Cowley seems particularly hard on Doyle - he snaps at him a few times in Ojuka, enough to have made me wonder what's going on before now! *g*

Oh, is there a story in the back of your mind? :)

Will be back a little later, with more.