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ci5hqA day late I'm afraid, not because I didn't write my post yesterday, but because I did, kept it open as a work in progress ready to post before I went home, was distracted by something in the office and closed the window - and lj didn't save the draft (which was also my fault, because I posted a brief, more immediate question in between...) Halfway to the car park I thought Oh bugger..., didn't dare look until I'd finished Job 3 at home, but by that time I was too tired to try to recreate it. So sorry for the delay - now, second time lucky...
The minor characters in The Choosing by Kate Maclean, are Ann Holly and Marion (Freud or Docherty, we're not told which). Ann is in England for a holiday with a potential/new boyfriend, who she drops very quickly on running into Doyle, and Marion is the woman that Bodie chooses to replace Doyle as his own love interest. I like both these characters ("both confident, professional women..." as Bodie describes them), but I like them best for what they tell us about our Bodie and Doyle, rather than for themselves.
Eventually, Bodie takes Marion to a dinner cooked by Ann at Doyle's flat. They all manage to get through the evening, Ann and Marion getting on well, although Doyle is rather sharp with Marion, and when Bodie and Marion get home, she collapses on the bed with a huge God! of relief that it's over. She confesses that she enjoyed herself, but calls Ray and Ann an "odd couple". When she spoke again she sounded thoughtful. "Ray's really proud of her, you can see that. I suppose he was just... playing it cool, wasn't he?"
I've always thought that Ann Holly gets a pretty raw deal from Doyle - in Involvement he's the one who pursues her, and she's open right from the start about how she feels about violence and the job he chooses to do. Doyle goes all out to charm her though, presumably in despair from his own role in Benny's death, and perhaps the same build-up of guilt, and perhaps a touch of self-hatred that we see in a future (production) episode, Discovered in a Graveyard. Ann says at the end, "I thought you'd changed", but I think that's only because Doyle presented himself to her as someone who wanted to change - or at least was already different to her expectations of someone in her job. In Choosing Doyle says ...when I met Ann the first time, she was like... no girl I'd ever been with. She really seemed to understand things in me....
And here she is, again being used by Doyle - he confesses to Bodie that he felt that she was his last chance at grasping "normality", when he'd been totally thrown by the strength of his feelings and desire for Bodie. We don't really see the extent to which Ann is hurt by Doyle almost standing her up at the altar (on their wedding day, at least), and Doyle says "She could be cold too," to Bodie, perhaps showing us a glimpse of the way he justifies things to himself. Either way, she's treated badly - but through her we see that Doyle can't give Bodie up, no matter the consequences to himself - and he does feel for what he does to her too.
Marion is also treated pretty shabbily. We hear Bodie's every thoughts, and we know that he likes her, but we mostly know that he likes Doyle more, and that he's effectively rebounded to Marion (just as he caught Doyle on the rebound from Ann, and thought himself lucky). He goes so far as to use her to escape a future of working beside Doyle when Doyle has chosen Ann over him - he not only manipulates Marion into offering him a job in her company, but we see that he has coolly planned this in advance. Again, Marion is showing us something about Bodie - I love this kind of writing. We're not told through an agonising hour of navel-gazing, all Bodie's thoughts of upset and lost love, but that he knows he'll extricate himself and be alright - we're shown him doing this, we have all the fun of watching it and working it out for ourselves, and therefore feeling that we've come to know the character, rather than just being told what he's like.
Even more minor characters show us something about the lads in the same way - or, again, about Bodie's thoughts (since it's from his pov): Mac and Paterson were standing at the door, outwardly alert, but to Bodie's experienced eye, immensely bored, which was hardly surprising. There were few things more stultifying than an academic conference; they could almost hope for a terrorist attack. This is really skilful writing - not only are we being shown what the world looks like (two men on guard at the door), but also how it is more deeply down (but incredibly bored), and how Bodie himself has experienced that same situation - we find out about his past, whilst barely realising that we've been told.
Before I have to leave this computer without posting again - and lose it a second time - I'm going to rush to the end... *g* I'm always fascinated by the last line in the story (which I think is a brilliant way to leave a reader). The lads are together again, Doyle has confessed his love for Bodie, and they're back at work. Doyle goes off to find a newspaper and coffee, and:
Bodie... felt vaguely sick: hauled from one emotion to another - shock, despair, joy. He thought about Marion, and Ann and Lindsay from long ago, and he thought about what he'd seen in Cowley's face, and there was no denying it any more. Then he remembered Doyle and what he'd just seen in him: fear, fury and undoubtedly, love. Well, he thought, staring at his hands, knotted white-knuckle tight, sometimes you get exactly what you want. And then, sometimes you don't.
Now... it took me some thinking, over many re-reads, to work this out, wondering what it was that Bodie hadn't got, when we'd seen quite clearly that he did have Doyle - which was surely what he'd wanted? What I've finally decided was that, as much as Bodie wanted Doyle, the reason he really truly had never gone for it, was that he thought he wanted a calm life, in control of himself, even more. Throughout the story he comes across as strangely weak when confronted by Doyle, or something Doyle wants, and we see him giving in to Doyle time after time. Looking at the words used at the time though, and twisting a bit into Doyle's mind to see things from his point of view, that's not how things appear from the outside - in fact Bodie seems to be rejecting Doyle on several occasions, and making Doyle come to him. We see him playing it cool on the outside - but on the inside, in this tight pov, we see how much that's a reaction to something he seems to hate - the fact that he can't control his desire and love for Doyle, that other people react with such emotion to things. He recoils from discovering not that Cowley wants him, but from the fact that Cowley let him see that. He stands well back from the dramatic scene in the restaurant, when Doyle and James are fighting over Ann, and he reacts with charm and avoidance whenever anyone tries to draw him on anything emotion. He's appalled when Cowley lets on that he knows Bodie is in love with Doyle, and again that he tells Bodie he knows... I think that Bodie got what he most outwardly wanted - Doyle - but in doing so he absolutely let go of that calm control he'd wanted to retain through life, because life loving Doyle so vehemently won't ever feel that calm, not with jealousy and despair always lurking in the wings, as it does for lovers - or so he apparently thinks. And of course we've been given a glimpse of why he thinks that too - He'd known since childhood really, watching his own parent's union with unchildlike eyes, that relationships were never equal. One person always loved more than the other. In his parent's case it had been his Da, devoted slavishly to his lovely, ambitious, faithless wife.
So... what do you think? What do you think of Ann and Marion in this story (or of Leimann, another minor character who helps propel Doyle back into Bodie's arms) - does Ann reflect the Ann we see in Involvement? What about Doyle's treatment of her? What about Marion - is she a good choice for Bodie, can you see him choosing her - and what about the way he reacts to her (again, huge embarrassment when she's open about her feelings for him)? What is it that Bodie didn't get in the end - what sense have you always made of that last line? And, just to go a wee bit further, do you think it's a good interpretation of British psyche of the 1970s/Bodie and Doyle's post-war generation, and the way people react to each other? *g*
*hits Cntl +C, then posts*
The minor characters in The Choosing by Kate Maclean, are Ann Holly and Marion (Freud or Docherty, we're not told which). Ann is in England for a holiday with a potential/new boyfriend, who she drops very quickly on running into Doyle, and Marion is the woman that Bodie chooses to replace Doyle as his own love interest. I like both these characters ("both confident, professional women..." as Bodie describes them), but I like them best for what they tell us about our Bodie and Doyle, rather than for themselves.
Eventually, Bodie takes Marion to a dinner cooked by Ann at Doyle's flat. They all manage to get through the evening, Ann and Marion getting on well, although Doyle is rather sharp with Marion, and when Bodie and Marion get home, she collapses on the bed with a huge God! of relief that it's over. She confesses that she enjoyed herself, but calls Ray and Ann an "odd couple". When she spoke again she sounded thoughtful. "Ray's really proud of her, you can see that. I suppose he was just... playing it cool, wasn't he?"
I've always thought that Ann Holly gets a pretty raw deal from Doyle - in Involvement he's the one who pursues her, and she's open right from the start about how she feels about violence and the job he chooses to do. Doyle goes all out to charm her though, presumably in despair from his own role in Benny's death, and perhaps the same build-up of guilt, and perhaps a touch of self-hatred that we see in a future (production) episode, Discovered in a Graveyard. Ann says at the end, "I thought you'd changed", but I think that's only because Doyle presented himself to her as someone who wanted to change - or at least was already different to her expectations of someone in her job. In Choosing Doyle says ...when I met Ann the first time, she was like... no girl I'd ever been with. She really seemed to understand things in me....
And here she is, again being used by Doyle - he confesses to Bodie that he felt that she was his last chance at grasping "normality", when he'd been totally thrown by the strength of his feelings and desire for Bodie. We don't really see the extent to which Ann is hurt by Doyle almost standing her up at the altar (on their wedding day, at least), and Doyle says "She could be cold too," to Bodie, perhaps showing us a glimpse of the way he justifies things to himself. Either way, she's treated badly - but through her we see that Doyle can't give Bodie up, no matter the consequences to himself - and he does feel for what he does to her too.
Marion is also treated pretty shabbily. We hear Bodie's every thoughts, and we know that he likes her, but we mostly know that he likes Doyle more, and that he's effectively rebounded to Marion (just as he caught Doyle on the rebound from Ann, and thought himself lucky). He goes so far as to use her to escape a future of working beside Doyle when Doyle has chosen Ann over him - he not only manipulates Marion into offering him a job in her company, but we see that he has coolly planned this in advance. Again, Marion is showing us something about Bodie - I love this kind of writing. We're not told through an agonising hour of navel-gazing, all Bodie's thoughts of upset and lost love, but that he knows he'll extricate himself and be alright - we're shown him doing this, we have all the fun of watching it and working it out for ourselves, and therefore feeling that we've come to know the character, rather than just being told what he's like.
Even more minor characters show us something about the lads in the same way - or, again, about Bodie's thoughts (since it's from his pov): Mac and Paterson were standing at the door, outwardly alert, but to Bodie's experienced eye, immensely bored, which was hardly surprising. There were few things more stultifying than an academic conference; they could almost hope for a terrorist attack. This is really skilful writing - not only are we being shown what the world looks like (two men on guard at the door), but also how it is more deeply down (but incredibly bored), and how Bodie himself has experienced that same situation - we find out about his past, whilst barely realising that we've been told.
Before I have to leave this computer without posting again - and lose it a second time - I'm going to rush to the end... *g* I'm always fascinated by the last line in the story (which I think is a brilliant way to leave a reader). The lads are together again, Doyle has confessed his love for Bodie, and they're back at work. Doyle goes off to find a newspaper and coffee, and:
Bodie... felt vaguely sick: hauled from one emotion to another - shock, despair, joy. He thought about Marion, and Ann and Lindsay from long ago, and he thought about what he'd seen in Cowley's face, and there was no denying it any more. Then he remembered Doyle and what he'd just seen in him: fear, fury and undoubtedly, love. Well, he thought, staring at his hands, knotted white-knuckle tight, sometimes you get exactly what you want. And then, sometimes you don't.
Now... it took me some thinking, over many re-reads, to work this out, wondering what it was that Bodie hadn't got, when we'd seen quite clearly that he did have Doyle - which was surely what he'd wanted? What I've finally decided was that, as much as Bodie wanted Doyle, the reason he really truly had never gone for it, was that he thought he wanted a calm life, in control of himself, even more. Throughout the story he comes across as strangely weak when confronted by Doyle, or something Doyle wants, and we see him giving in to Doyle time after time. Looking at the words used at the time though, and twisting a bit into Doyle's mind to see things from his point of view, that's not how things appear from the outside - in fact Bodie seems to be rejecting Doyle on several occasions, and making Doyle come to him. We see him playing it cool on the outside - but on the inside, in this tight pov, we see how much that's a reaction to something he seems to hate - the fact that he can't control his desire and love for Doyle, that other people react with such emotion to things. He recoils from discovering not that Cowley wants him, but from the fact that Cowley let him see that. He stands well back from the dramatic scene in the restaurant, when Doyle and James are fighting over Ann, and he reacts with charm and avoidance whenever anyone tries to draw him on anything emotion. He's appalled when Cowley lets on that he knows Bodie is in love with Doyle, and again that he tells Bodie he knows... I think that Bodie got what he most outwardly wanted - Doyle - but in doing so he absolutely let go of that calm control he'd wanted to retain through life, because life loving Doyle so vehemently won't ever feel that calm, not with jealousy and despair always lurking in the wings, as it does for lovers - or so he apparently thinks. And of course we've been given a glimpse of why he thinks that too - He'd known since childhood really, watching his own parent's union with unchildlike eyes, that relationships were never equal. One person always loved more than the other. In his parent's case it had been his Da, devoted slavishly to his lovely, ambitious, faithless wife.
So... what do you think? What do you think of Ann and Marion in this story (or of Leimann, another minor character who helps propel Doyle back into Bodie's arms) - does Ann reflect the Ann we see in Involvement? What about Doyle's treatment of her? What about Marion - is she a good choice for Bodie, can you see him choosing her - and what about the way he reacts to her (again, huge embarrassment when she's open about her feelings for him)? What is it that Bodie didn't get in the end - what sense have you always made of that last line? And, just to go a wee bit further, do you think it's a good interpretation of British psyche of the 1970s/Bodie and Doyle's post-war generation, and the way people react to each other? *g*
*hits Cntl +C, then posts*
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no subject
Date: 2012-08-24 08:28 pm (UTC)But the trouble with KML stories is..., - that you can't stop...
*big sigh*
Right at the beginning we learn what a Bastard(!) this Doyle is! Even at moments when everything should be perfect! He plays with his moods, he plays with Bodie.
And in the end, when we are told his motivation - it's much too late to forgive him.
Bodie figured it all out, the moment when it's too late...
I think that's the explanation for the last words:
"...sometimes you get exactly what you want. And then, sometimes you don't."
Doyle is what Bodie wants - but he's not good for him!
""You're not gettin' out of this, you bastard. Not until we die! Hear me, Bodie? Even if we're sweepin' the fuckin' streets till we're on the pension ... you're not leavin' me." His voice fell to a whisper. "An' I'll kill you if you try. You hear me?""
Ahem...
And yes! I think Marion would be the better choice for Bodie in this story!
She is perfect for Bodie! She is the choice of a grown-up Bodie. (Though it was just for show.)
I like her!
(that's my opinion just for this story! ;-))
Ann? Well... she is a cold type. She's ok for this Doyle, but she doesn't deserve this treatment.
Leimann? Very realistic, that he doesn't risk anything. And he's a very good move of the author.
Cowley? I can't see a Cowley who is(was) in love with Bodie...
"...do you think it's a good interpretation of British psyche of the 1970s/Bodie and Doyle's post-war generation, and the way people react to each other? *g*"
Yes! Absolutely! Or no? Hmmmmm.... Let's think about it... ;-)
My résumé of this story?
A perfectly written story, with characters I don't love, and though the end is supposed to be good, it leaves me
without a happy smile on my face...
Thank you for this double-review! ;-)
no subject
Date: 2012-08-25 08:41 pm (UTC)I don't know if I can or I can’t or maybe I just don't want to see a Cowley in love with Bodie, I really don't know...... but aside from that I thought the whole scene was one of the best Pros scenes I've ever read. I literally felt a part of it and was holding my breath as I read, hardly believing what Bodie could hardly believe he was hearing and seeing. And I could completely understand Bodie's feelings at what he was discovering from Cowley: anger, shock, surprise but above all sadness:
But Bodie felt a need to say something more, the lump in his throat testament to how much he felt for this man.
And I can understand Cowley's feelings, maybe not specifically re Bodie but for what I could glean from that scene alone: that he's an elderly, tired man who has given his life to publc service and yet who is quite isolated in the job. And lonely because he seems to realise he'll never experience what Bodie and Doyle have experienced.
What a difficult and complex scene which I think Maclean handled perfectly.
Leimann? Very realistic, that he doesn't risk anything. And he's a very good move of the author.
I feel ashamed....despite this being one of my all-time favourite stories which I've read several times (though not for a while) I couldn't remember who this Leimann character was! So I looked him up and yes, I loved the way he was written into the story, the way he made Doyle jealous and Bodie slightly embarassed but still enjoying the whole experience (I think he needed a 'Leimann' at that moment in his life...).
A perfectly written story, with characters I don't love, and though the end is supposed to be good, it leaves me
without a happy smile on my face...
I know what you mean and I think I've probably felt the same way about other Maclean endings e.g. Yellow Brick Road. i.e. slightly uneasy but not in a depressing kind of way, more in a realistic sense, and so it's also quite satisfying, nevertheless, because it's realistic - Maclean hasn't fobbed us off or insulted us with a 'happy ever after' finale because it's unlikely to be that way with them....OK, maybe at the very end, but it will be a rocky road ahead first, because they are who they are.
no subject
Date: 2012-08-25 10:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-08-26 11:02 am (UTC)I’ve been trying to work out why I can’t see them in this way and I think it’s because Cowley is too much a figure of authority – whether it be fatherly or headmasterly – for me to to be able to see him in any other kind of situation and I think Bodie would probably feel the same. It would almost be like seeing your father or headmaster having sex and I just wouldn’t want to! I want him to carry on performing the function I’m used to seeing him perform, fighting the good fight on behalf of the rest of us and if Cowley became involved in a sexual relationship with Bodie he wouldn’t be Cowley. I can't see him being vulnerable enough to do that either. He’s not unattractive, in fact I think he is an attractive man in many ways, but more than anything I think he is the job. I can see him being very fond of Bodie, he understands him and was prepared to take him on, warts and all. And I think the fondness is mutual as we’ve seen Bodie very angry with and about Cowley and I think that implies strong feelings. e.g. in The Rack when Bodie shouts at Doyle the old man's struggling for his life out there and yet Bodie and Cowley almost come to blows when they find the dead young agent in Slush Fund. Perhaps they have some kind of understanding or rapport because they do have some things in common: a knowledge of military life and a preparedness to adapt themselves to it, and, at a stretch, they’ve both had important female relationships in the past (I don’t think we're shown this with Doyle?). But I just can't see their relationship going beyond this, beyond the esprit de corps of the shared military background, a certain fondness and mutual respect.
Sorry, I feel I'm letting you down!
no subject
Date: 2012-08-26 11:53 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-08-26 04:52 pm (UTC)Perhaps my epiphany still lies before me! But I just don't want it to happen or at least I don't want to see it happen which probably says more about me than them and I need some kind of therapy.....
Actually I was seduced by all the tragic and dramatic possibilities of the transgression itself.
Yes, I can see the possibilities in that situation and I think there would be *a lot* of potential for tragedy and drama between them. And it could be much more interesting (as I think you imply here: And I feel a sexual relationship between partners just as transgressive and dangerous by the way. I'm not interested in the least by sentimental stories placed in a gay-friendly context, no more than I'm interested in het love stories. ) than the average gay or het relationship, the former being much more acceptable now, less forbidden. I completely understand the attraction of the 'forbidden' aspect of any bodie/cowley relationship and it's usually the forbidden which *does* attract me in any scenario, but for some reason which is still a bit of a mystery to me, in this instance I don't want to see it. Or at least, I don't want to participate or be a voyeur in their experience. Hmmmm.....I think that's what I feel...........
no subject
Date: 2012-08-26 06:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-08-26 12:24 pm (UTC)Yes. I agree!
Just look at Annie. He adores her. He adores even her strenght and that she has done her own thing. When he talks about her his eyes get bright. He doesn't even notice it when Bodie and Doyle make jokes about him.
And then there is the way he is really fascinated by this high-class call girl Anna Jones. He looks at her like a schoolboy at his first night out in a striptease bar...
What I mean is, that he has some kind of innocence, some pureness when it comes to matters of love.
For me he is absolutely not the man who even considered to love another man, because such relationships are full of trouble, problems, hiding, camouflage and even tragedy (in the military).
And that's not Cowley for me!
I think his correctness wouldn't allow himself to make a secret out of his love/addiction to another man.
Ahem... Surely you'll wonder about the connection between him 'adoring' a hooker and his pureness...
But sorry, I can't explain it better. :-/
no subject
Date: 2012-08-26 04:15 pm (UTC)I think 'pureness' is a good choice of word for Cowley. I can see him putting Annie on a pedestal, admiring her from afar almost in a theoretical kind of way (as he seemed to be doing when he watched her on camera with Bodie and Doyle behind him, even slightly mesmerisd by her) but I can't see him getting down and dirty with her. It's almost as if he doesn't want his ideal in love tainted in any way by the practice of it.
Ahem... Surely you'll wonder about the connection between him 'adoring' a hooker and his pureness...
I'm sorry but I don't think I noticed him admiring Anna! I remember Doyle looking her up and down but not Cowley so perhaps I should look again. (Though I do remember Cowley flirtng with Geraldine Mather.....even though it was done with sarcasm it made me feel uncomfortable and I thought it let him down, slightly.)
no subject
Date: 2012-08-26 06:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-08-26 12:44 pm (UTC)That's true! And I think there are some more fantastic scenes in this story! That's why I can't put it away when I read it.
"I know what you mean and I think I've probably felt the same way about other Maclean endings e.g. Yellow Brick Road. i.e. "
Oh, I really distaste YBR! Because KML rewrites some beloved scenes from the show and... - yes she destroys them.
She turns everything around till you hate it...
Ahem... Sorry!
"...slightly uneasy but not in a depressing kind of way, more in a realistic sense, and so it's also quite satisfying, nevertheless, because it's realistic - Maclean hasn't fobbed us off or insulted us with a 'happy ever after' finale because it's unlikely to be that way with them...."
I agree. It's absolutely not depressing. But you put it down and you forget how perfectly written it is, and if you have to make the choice, you take the other, warmer story...
no subject
Date: 2012-08-26 06:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-08-26 06:23 am (UTC)Oh, but we don't really - that's what Kate Maclean does so brilliantly - Doyle isn't a bastard, he's just as confused about life as Bodie is, and because we're seeing his confusion through Bodie's confusion, it all looks so much worse than it is... that's why I do believe in the ending, that it's a truly happy ending, because Maclean has shown that their love was strong enough that they managed to get over all that psychological confusion and win through to the real world, which is that they'll overturn the world for each other... well, Doyle will, anyway!
Doyle is what Bodie wants - but he's not good for him!
That's what I half-thought it meant for ages, but it doesn't quite make sense, so it niggled at me. Doyle not being good for Bodie doesn't equal Bodie thinking "sometimes you don't get what you want", because we've not seen Bodie wanting something that's good for him - we've seen him wanting Doyle, who he does get... What we have seen is Bodie wanting calm and control, and in the maelstrom of loving Doyle that's not what he's had, or presumably will get - though of course he could turn out to be wrong about that too, couldn't he! *g*
She is the choice of a grown-up Bodie.
I like Marion too, and I thought she seemed like a good choice for Bodie, but now I wonder. She liked to tease him, and make him blush, and Bodie didn't like that deep down, so I'm not sure how long he would have stood it really... I can imagine him withdrawing from it, eventually, because it too challenged his idea of being in control of himself, and he didn't actually love her, as he did Doyle, to make up for it...
Ann? Well... she is a cold type.
See, I've never understood that - why do you feel she's a cold character?
Cowley? I can't see a Cowley who is(was) in love with Bodie...
No, I can't either - he might have affectionate feelings towards him, but I can't see him falling in love with him... or Bodie bein in love with Cowley, either. Bodie's not serious enough, doesn't value the same things as deeply enough...
Thank you for this double-review! ;-)
You've lost me - how was it a double review?! (Though you're welcome! *g*)
no subject
Date: 2012-08-26 01:21 pm (UTC)She IS brilliant - but he is a bastard! ;-)
I don't think that you can show me many 'normal Bodie/Doyle banter moments'! Is there just one?
Every single moment between them is full of insecurity, manipulation, fight for dominance and not letting in into a real relationship. Doyle gives Bodie permanently the runaround(?). And the moment he sees Ann he doesn't even think about Bodie anymore. Just the way he forgets her when he goes back to Bodie.
And who wants a Bodie who is so confused all the time?
"so I'm not sure how long he would have stood it really... I can imagine him withdrawing from it, eventually, because it too challenged his idea of being in control of himself, and he didn't actually love her, as he did Doyle, to make up for it..."
That's true. He took her to match Ann, to impress the couple. But I think that's a shame, because she would fit to a grown-up Bodie, considering her job, her attitude, and her humour too!
"Ann? Well... she is a cold type.
See, I've never understood that - why do you feel she's a cold character?"
To be true I always liked her in the show - till the moment she tries to change Doyle and leaves him 'just like that'.
And here in this story she never shows any personality like Marion for example. She is a bit boring and - ok it's Marion who says that she's genteel.
no subject
Date: 2012-08-28 10:34 am (UTC)Oh, but I don't think she did try to change Doyle. At the end she says "I thought you'd changed", but that's because he's led her to believe that he will, that he never was what she saw in him in the first place. At the end of the day Doyle put his job in front of his trust for her - and she'd said right from the start that she didn't agree with his job. He was the one who tried to convince her that he was different - she was actually right to finally see that he never would change.
I mean - how would you feel if you came into your flat to find your boyfriend searching through your old letters? Or to find out that he'd gone behind your back and arrested your father (which is how it must have looked to her) and not even told you that your father was involved in something! And that was after everything else that had happened - her seeing someone shot in front of her, watching Doyle suddenly dart into the dance floor and attack a bloke who's dancing, all his bossiness which he said was for her, but was really because he fancied her and wanted to ask her out...
and leaves him 'just like that'.
See above! I really don't think it was "just like that" - she'd given him lots of chances, and he kept betraying her, really...
I don't think that you can show me many 'normal Bodie/Doyle banter moments'! Is there just one?
Well, but they're not constantly "bantering" during the episodes either, that's only in lighter moments, and the story to me isn't about the lighter moments. Maclean describes them (during their anniversary dinner, and the dinner party for instance) but that's not the point of the story. The point of the banter in the eps is to show us their relationship, but the focus of the relationship in the story is different, and including "banter" would focus it differently, would show us something different about them - and that's not what the story's about... That said, I'm not sure that a lack of banter can be translated to mean that "Doyle is a bastard"!
And the moment he sees Ann he doesn't even think about Bodie anymore. Just the way he forgets her when he goes back to Bodie.
I don't think either of those things is true though. That's the impression that Bodie has, and we read it that way because we're so tightly in Bodie's pov, but that's not what's really happening. And there are lots of hints that Doyle is actually thinking about Bodie when he's with Ann, it's just that Bodie is blind to them because he's so upset - and so, because of the way the story is written, are we. It's a clever way of doing it, it draws the reader in, and afterwards you realise "oh yes, if Bodie'd seen that at the time..."
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Date: 2012-08-28 11:21 am (UTC)Well, but they're not constantly "bantering" during the episodes either, that's only in lighter moments, and the story to me isn't about the lighter moments."
Hmmmm... For me 'banter' is not only them making jokes or just talking about unimportant things.
For me banter means to feel comfortable in the company of the other, to know what the other means when he just lifts an eyebrow, to know when the other feels bad and needs some comfort, to feel good when the other feels good, to avoid things the other may upset, to stay back maybe even when you know you're right...
Means especially to be interested in the other person!
And these qualities you see in the show especially in difficult situations!
I can see nothing like that between them in the story. It's all about manipulation and tactic.
It seems they don't like the other - though both seem to love/need the other...
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Date: 2012-08-28 11:37 am (UTC)But no, the things you mention wouldn't be in this story, because the story isn't about a time when those things would work - it's about a time when there's trouble between the lads, when that sympathy and empathy have deserted them. That's just what the story is! You might see those things in the show in difficult situations, but not when there's a difficult situation between them (not that there are very many, granted...) What about Bodie in Wild Justice, too? He's all manipulation and tactics there - he involves Doyle in his problems yes, but doesn't ask for help, doesn't tell him about King Billy or what's going on. He gets him to ride a race where people are "riding to cut him out", and when Doyle goes to his rescue in the woods he hits him! So...
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Date: 2012-08-28 12:26 pm (UTC)Maybe the scenario would have worked better for me, if there had been just a bit of that sympathy/banter we know from the show. Just one moment...
It doesn't exist either before Ann nor at the (happy)end.
And there is no word that things have 'changed recently'.
So it leaves me believing, that this Bodie and this Doyle aren't able to feel comfortable in the other man's company!
I like stories with 'hard times'! But in the end it would be nice if there is a future with 'better times'!
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Date: 2012-08-28 12:33 pm (UTC)We'll have to agree to disagree that the story works in different ways for us both, I think - I absolutely see an optimistic ending to this story, with better times ahead of them!
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Date: 2012-08-28 12:48 pm (UTC)I keep my fingers crossed for them! ;-)
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Date: 2012-08-24 11:57 pm (UTC)I really enjoyed her minor characters here - I think Marion in particular, and Leimann (and also Cowley) perform a really valuable service in the narrative, because we're SO enmeshed in Bodie's perspective (and Bodie is quite focused on how much he wants Doyle and how pathetic and weak it makes him feel). I find that the presence of these other characters who want HIM, helps restore a kind of balance to the story. I mean, they serve to open Doyle's eyes, but also they help the reader to see that Bodie's perspective is warped, it's not really an accurate reflection of the situation. It would be so easy for a story like this, where Doyle seems to have all the power in the relationship, to make Bodie not just THINK of himself as weak and pathetic, but actually SEEM incredibly weak and pathetic to the reader. But that's not what happens at all, and I think part of that is due to how Bodie affects Leimann and Marion and Cowley.
I think you're right about how Marion and Ann tell us a lot about Ray and Bodie. I love how when Bodie and Marion show up at Ray and Ann's, Ray immediately susses Marion out as a threat. Because she's grown-up, and confident, and the kind of girl who could possibly keep Bodie. And Ray's reaction shows you something else about Ray and how HE feels about Bodie.
I agree that Ann gets quite a rough deal from Doyle in canon, and in this story. He's really vulnerable when he meets her in Involvement but it's not exactly an easy situation for her either.
As for the last lines of the story...yeah, they're compelling, aren't they? :) I always thought, because Bodie mentions Ann and Marion and Cowley, even that girl who'd been mad about him years ago - that he was acknowledging that yeah, he and Doyle have what they wanted...but that means that a lot of people can't have what they want. That loving Ray has made Bodie more sympathetic to the hurts of these people, even if he's not going to alter his choice. I figure it as Bodie's acknowledgment that love is quite selfish, and hurtful, and even though he and Doyle have a happy ending...that happy ending didn't come without a lot of carnage!
Thanks for such a great and thoughtful review - I loved thinking about this story :)
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Date: 2012-08-26 06:33 am (UTC)Yes, me too! It makes the story more real, and I love that in a writer! Though I suppose I have my limits too, there are some parts of reality that I don't want to be part of a story! (For instance, I can see the realistic, gritty psychology of M. Fae Glasgow's Snowbound stories, but I don't like reading them...) And yes! It's that gritty reality that does raise the stakes and make it more interesting - what a nice, succinct way of explaining how it works so well! *g*
I find that the presence of these other characters who want HIM, helps restore a kind of balance to the story...and I think part of that is due to how Bodie affects Leimann and Marion and Cowley.
You've got a knack for this, haven't you... *g* Again, yes - nicely put! Even though Bodie feels weak and pathetic, we don't see him being weak and pathetic at all, we see him through the eyes of the minor characters (and Doyle too, to a certain extent) and so realise that things are quite that simple... or at least we do eventually, cos it really does entangle us in Bodie's feelings, doesn't it...
that he was acknowledging that yeah, he and Doyle have what they wanted...but that means that a lot of people can't have what they want
I think that's what I've half-thought in the past too, and I do think you're right... it would be a grittier ending to the story, really, too - perhaps that's why I wanted something more, because to a certain extent I want a happy, fluffy, ever-after ending rather than the reminder that just cos he's got what he wants this time, he might not in the future... Though I suppose even that suggests more stories for them, so... *g*
And thank you for such a great thoughtful comment - aren't Kate Maclean's stories ace... *g*
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Date: 2012-08-26 01:45 pm (UTC)I always think that's a huge part of the draw of the Kate Maclean stories for me - you're going along, and you're SO into the POV character's, er...POV! But then, there's a moment where you start to realise - 'hang on...that's not quite...' and your perspective suddenly starts to shift, even while the POV character remains in the dark. It's so skillful - I love it. I think that's a huge part of the art of her stories. I mean, this story from Doyle's POV would be utterly and completely different (I mean, even while Bodie feels miserably weak, for most of this story, Doyle is the one who can't stop himself from propositioning Bodie - he must feel so out-of-control and weak in comparison to Bodie!) :)
(For instance, I can see the realistic, gritty psychology of M. Fae Glasgow's Snowbound stories, but I don't like reading them...)
Oh yeah, there are a lot of stories that are too dark for me, even though they're brilliantly done. But what I like about Kate Maclean's stories is that she keeps you on that knife-edge, but in the end, she never cuts you too deeply! :) Because you DO get the happy ever after...just, a little bit muddied! :)
I think that's what I've half-thought in the past too, and I do think you're right... it would be a grittier ending to the story, really, too - perhaps that's why I wanted something more, because to a certain extent I want a happy, fluffy, ever-after ending rather than the reminder that just cos he's got what he wants this time, he might not in the future...
And see, I'm pretty sanguine about the ending, because even though all these other people are hurt and possibly broken, Bodie and Doyle are okay and solidly together :) It comes at the expense of Ann's happiness (which came at the expense of that guy she was dating!) and Marion's happiness and Cowley's happiness...I like the kind of tang it gives to Bodie and Doyle forging onward anyway. Which is terrible, I know...but I suppose I'm proving my own point that love is a bit ruthless :)
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Date: 2012-08-28 10:36 am (UTC)Yes! that really is what's brilliant about it! *g* I'd be quite fascinated to read this from Doyle's pov, actually... *g*
but I suppose I'm proving my own point that love is a bit ruthless :)
It really is, which is something we really have to admit...
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Date: 2012-08-25 11:01 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-08-26 06:37 am (UTC)I'm very curious about why people don't like Ann - what is it about her that makes you "not a fan"?
Good point about Marion too, that she seems to have fallen in love with Bodie very quickly - though as Doyle did with Ann, I think Bodie's led Marion on, so perhaps it's not surprising... and it does match the timescale of Doyle and Ann in Involvement, too! I dunno - I think you can fancy yourself in love very quickly though - it's only really from the outside that it seems like a bad idea! *g*
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Date: 2012-08-26 10:32 am (UTC)I don't like Ann because of her desire to want Doyle to change in the episode. Knowing what he does, she still seems to think he'll leave that all behind for her. You should fall in love with the person, not who, or what, you want that person to be. And I'm sure the fact that I see her as a threat to the B/D relationship has a lot to do with it. *g*
And falling in love, and falling in lust, are two different thing. Truthfully, I think it's lust Marion feels for Bodie (she certainly goes on about his looks often enough.)
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Date: 2012-08-28 10:43 am (UTC)I don't like Ann because of her desire to want Doyle to change in the episode. Knowing what he does, she still seems to think he'll leave that all behind for her.
But, as I said to someone up above, it's not Ann who initially thinks Doyle will change - it's Doyle who tells her that she's wrong in what she thinks about him, who tries to pretend that he's someone else in fact (because he's so upset by Benny etc). He's the one who pursues Ann, he's the one who actually betrays her beliefs and re-encourages her over and over again. I think the fact that she wants to believe him makes her a good person - he's the rat for leading her on, because he doesn't do as he says he will. He continues to be violent (in the disco) and she comes back into her own flat to find him searching her papers (how would we feel about that?) and then she finds out that he's actually been involved with her father, but hasn't told her... I think she's got plenty to be disillusioned about, to be honest!
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Date: 2012-08-27 08:46 pm (UTC)They all have the same theme of a Doyle who is thoughtless, manipulative and cruel with people's feelings around him, a Bodie that seems to not be able to live without Doyle, but once he has him, feels badly about that too. It's as if he wants a different Doyle (maybe the one we know from canon?), and then realizes he's got this twisted, unlikeable "mirror" version. He never quite feels like the fun-loving, vivacious character from the show, and I don't think Bodie has no deeper feelings, but also don't see him as this constantly insecure being we see in Maclean's stories.
It's almost like taking one or two aspects of each character, and leaving out everything else.
I can't say I like either one of them very much in her stories.
Maybe I'm not looking deeply enough beyond the tight POV, but I always come away depressed by her stories, and so does Bodie, I think. Not sure how Doyle feels. I always want to ask this Bodie why he wants this Doyle, and vice versa.
I don't see a happy ending here, or in her other stories. More a forecast of all the trouble to come.
And that's how I interpret the last line.
I haven't re-read this story (have been away on an adventure with the Mobile Ghetto), but will give it another try to see if things have changed. After all, I used to dislike AUs with a passion, in the past! :D
This line by Firlefanzine stood out to me, for some reason:
"And the moment he sees Ann he doesn't even think about Bodie anymore. Just the way he forgets her when he goes back to Bodie."
This actually reminded me of Bodie in "Fall Girl". He completely cuts out Doyle the minute Marikka enters the picture.
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Date: 2012-08-28 10:26 am (UTC)It's IMO so out of character that Bodie cuts out Doyle that way. Just look at the scene in the pub-garden. They don't really know what to talk...
I totally agree to your opinion about KML stories. But strange enough I enjoy reading most of them(not Yellow Brick Road).
What a heavenly reading it would be, if Bodie and Doyle would be more 'themselves'...! :-)
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Date: 2012-08-28 10:53 am (UTC)It's IMO so out of character that Bodie cuts out Doyle that way.
Except that he does it in Man Without a Past and in Wild Justice too... It's canon that he cuts Doyle out like that!
The lads are totally themselves in her stories - it's just that the whole point is that other people don't always see past the outside view, they don't know what's going on in our heads, and so they interpret things differently... So if you want a straightforward love story, no, that's not what Kate Maclean writes - and that's what I love about her stories!
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Date: 2012-08-28 04:53 pm (UTC)We don't always know what's going in inside their heads, but by watching them in many different situations, (together, with others, alone), I think we have a pretty good idea.
Doyle can be temperamental, and even cruel, but that's not his one defining quality that shows itself continuously.
Of course Bodie isn't constantly light-hearted, but in KM's stories, he seems "never" happy, with himself or Doyle.
It just seems relentlessly unhappy, with Bodie thinking he loves more (like his father) and anticipating Doyle to be flighty and unfaithful (like his mother) and hating himself for wanting this, but not being able to just let it go, either.
Maybe if there were just a little bit more hopefulness at the end, and a little more happiness after all this struggle, but Bodie white-knuckled thoughts do not make me feel he is at all happy. More like "buyer's remorse".
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Date: 2012-08-29 10:10 am (UTC)I think the thing about KM's stories is that she's not focussing on the happy times, the times when the lads would be light-hearted and so on...
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Date: 2012-08-30 12:57 am (UTC)Everyone has an element of that, but canon Doyle doesn't appear to only think of himself to that extent.
I understand that these are not happy times, and they wouldn't be light-hearted under the circumstances, but Bodie's internal thoughts about Doyle still make me wonder why on earth he wants to be with him.
I've read the story again, and now think the last line could refer to Cowley/Ann/Marion/Leimann not getting what *they* wanted, but am not quite sure it isn't Bodie questioning if having is as good as wanting.
Bodie (and Cowley, possibly others) believe he [Bodie] is as good as gold and will never cheat on Doyle, while being certain that Doyle will tire of/betray Bodie eventually. It might help to get Doyle's side of the story, but we don't and we only get filtered views of Doyle that make him look like a thoroughly unpleasant chap most of the time. Even when he is "nice", it's tinged with undertones of such a degree of selfishness. It's what he says and how he says it.
Here are a few quotes I collected while reading:
His tone implied that the caterpillar still had quite a bit of hard graft to do; he had to keep his pride didn't he? But Doyle wasn't fooled anyway - he knew full well how Bodie felt about him. (So Bodie assumes, wrongly, I suppose and this is one of the areas where we can see the fallacy of Bodie's thoughts. Here and in canon, he tends to put down Doyle's looks in favor of his own. Is this where KM's Bodie's insecurity about his looks come from? Is canon Bodie insecure about his looks? Is Doyle? I'd love to pick this story apart and see some of the interpretations everyone comes up with! Do you have some examples where we get glimpses of the "real" Doyle?)
Yet Bodie was left feeling that Doyle was - no other way of looking at it really - doing him a favour. (Well, he might. He sometimes does in canon, when Bodie sweeps him along, while Doyle just wanted to relax at home. Does Bodie accommodate Doyle's wishes, sometimes?)
He knew he'd never find again what he'd stumbled on with Doyle: if Ann was perfection for Ray, then he was perfection for Bodie. (But we really mostly hear about the negatives and misgivings, apart from a list at the beginning of the story, and a few physical references. It's a time of intense jealousy and grief for Bodie, but it still feels as if he dislikes a lot more about Doyle than he likes. And he doesn't trust him.)
Doyle was a bad choice, Bodie. I doubt he'll ever ... give himself. For all that guilt and sensitivity to wrong, he's colder than you'll ever be."
Bodie looked at him, dazed now by the directness of the conversation - with Cowley of all people. Somehow he'd expected ambiguity to the end. But the thing that struck at him most was the undisguised dislike, almost bitterness in the older man's voice, when he spoke about Doyle. He'd sensed it, now he could see it.
(Here is Cowley, making Doyle out to be a really unlikeable person, cold and insincere. Of course, he loves Bodie in this story, so would see him in a much better light, but while Cowley seems to expect more from Doyle in canon, I never got the impression he disliked him. He understands their different personalities and interacts accordingly. Just looking at DIAG makes me highly doubt that Cowley does not like and care for Doyle. There was absolutely no reason for him to spend so much time at the hospital, if he secretly hoped, Doyle would not make it.)
...because Ray never forgot or forgave (Hm, really?)
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Date: 2012-08-30 07:22 am (UTC)Ooh yes, let's!
Do you have some examples where we get glimpses of the "real" Doyle?)
I do! They're just glimpses though, because we're in Bodie's pov, and he's focussed on negative things right now. (And come to think of it, it's going to depend on what we each see as "the real Doyle"... *g* And actually examples where the "real" Doyle is being manipulated by Bodie...
“…And however much you wish to deny it, you jeopardized the operation." His voice rose as he glared into Doyle's equally furious face. "I repeat - you put your partner's well-being before that of the people you were supposed to protect."
The first thing we find out about in the story is that Doyle put Bodie above everything and everyone else, and is furious that Cowley expects him to have done otherwise.
Then:
Doyle's head snapped up and he looked intensely at his partner as [Bodie] winked and continued to back away. "No. Okay then. I'll come back for a couple. Just a couple, mind."
"Right." Bodie turned and led the way to his car, satisfied. All he wanted now was to get home and fuck the fear out of his system, and later - well, he had plans.
So it really isn't just Doyle making the running - Bodie manipulates Doyle into what he wants here. Doyle says he's tired, but Bodie thinks he's playing games, because Bodie wants something different. We don't really know which is true, and we only see it through Bodie's eyes.
"If you don't want to go, just say." He injected just the right note of little boy disappointment into his voice, and Ray's eyes opened to stare at him.
Again - Doyle's "collapsed" on the bed after a day when he's saved Bodie's life at the near-expense of other people, he's been chewed out by Cowley and threatened to resign: you might expect him to be in a slightly dodgy mood after all that - and then Bodie's taken him home and they've had sex - but Bodie now wants to go out to dinner (a non-traditional - 4 month - anniversary that he's not mentioned is important to him) and when Doyle seems reluctant he again manipulates him into doing what he wants. And Doyle gets up and does it.
Doyle cuddled up, snuffling, next to him when he'd spent the night; or he looked up at Doyle's face, scrunched in exquisite, possessive anguish as he fucked him again and again
Doyle cuddles up to Bodie, and is "possessive" of him in bed.
We also find out that:
It was just thirteen days after the messy conclusion of the Holly affair and Bodie had been so badly scared by Doyle's uncharacteristic determination to commit himself to Ann Holly, that he couldn't hold his possessiveness in check any longer. So, he'd tried one more time and got Doyle on the rebound
Bodie didn't wait longer than that - he took advantage of the fact that Doyle was emotionally fragile to get what he wanted. Maybe that's one reason we see him feeling guilty and insecure through the story - he knew he'd made his approach when Doyle was vulnerable and wanting to be/missing being loved and wanted, and so he doesn't know that Doyle would have reacted the same way if he'd been his normal self. So now that Doyle seems back to his normal self, Bodie's doubts have surfaced.
Bodie actually describes his own relationship with Doyle as: devoted, but determinedly jokey attention from Bodie - now if Doyle was being shown Bodie's affection only as "jokey", then what would we really expect to feel about that?
Oh, this is going to be too long for a comment (ack, it already was - *cuts*) - and we're all concertina-ing... Shall I make a new post with this slightly different focus, and see if other people want to join in...?
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Date: 2012-08-30 02:59 pm (UTC)Am off to a staff meeting, but will join in later!
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Date: 2012-08-28 10:51 am (UTC)They all have the same theme of a Doyle who is thoughtless, manipulative and cruel with people's feelings around him, a Bodie that seems to not be able to live without Doyle, but once he has him, feels badly about that too.
Oh, but they don't! They have as a theme that things can look that way to us, because we don't always see what other people are thinking - that although we might feel they're thinking one thing, there's often something completely different going on...
I agree that Bodie doesn't seem like a "fun-loving, vivacious character" (or do you mean Doyle here?), but there are times in the eps when they're not like that too. When bad things are happening, when they're upset about things (Marrika, Ann, etc), they don't spend their time joking and "bantering" and being light-hearted either...
"And the moment he sees Ann he doesn't even think about Bodie anymore. Just the way he forgets her when he goes back to Bodie."
I've just written a long response to this above, because I don't think that's how it is at all! That's what Bodie thinks - that's the whole point of the story, that Bodie thinks that's what's happening, but in fact it isn't - there are various hints that Doyle isn't sure, that he knows Ann isn't right for him over Bodie really, but we're shown things through Bodie's tight pov, and when we're upset we're often blind to what other people are actually doing/feeling themselves...
his actually reminded me of Bodie in "Fall Girl". He completely cuts out Doyle the minute Marikka enters the picture.
Yes, and in MWaP, too... and Wild Justice in many ways, though he tries to use Doyle to win the race for him - without telling him what's really going on...
I love Maclean's stories because she really does remind us that not everything is as straight-forward as we think it is, rather like Pros itself does - she just uses their relationship to show us, rather than political intrigue... *g*