CI5hq Mini Review Challenge - Hyperion to a Satyr

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

I've recently been reading outside Pros a little, but I do tend to come back to the Lads for a late night read before bed. This week it's been Sebastian's Hyperion to a Satyr, a wonderful story. I've been rereading only a page or so a night, so plenty of time to ponder things like:

- why this particular title? It's a reference to Hamlet and this line...
"So excellent a king, that was to this
Hyperion to a satyr,"
...but other than that, and possibly the idea of combining the two - but how I don't know - I've got nothing.

- POV switching, I see you - Sebastian flicks between them - more later in the story than earlier, although there are moments in the first part - "He was pleased that Doyle was going to be reasonable; for a moment there he'd thought he might be tricky" (which could be omniscient, rather than Bodie POV actually). With most writers I prefer a consistent POV, if they aren't technically proficient enough to manage the switching, but there are a few, particularly Sebastian, M Fae, Helen Raven, who can do it well. I absolutely don't find it intrusive here and (IMO) seems necessary to give us glimpses of what's going on in Bodie's head so we can relax and indulge ourselves in the final, gorgeous happy ending.

Oh and it's a very lush, sweet and sexy ending as well :)

Comments

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I've not read that one for ages - and a blessing on my sieve-like memory, because I can't remember it off-hand, so I shall go into it all fresh (until I hit the trigger word that reminds me, cos I've read it many times, cos Sebastian.... *g*) I think perhaps I should have a Sebastian-fest...

I've always wondered about the title too - had to google Hyperion actually, cos all I knew was someone Greek... *g* Now I've done that a bit, I need to re-read the story and see - my eyes are melting a bit right now (I shouldn't really be online) but hopefully later today I shall go and have a read and a wee wonder...

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

my eyes are melting

Oh - poor you. Exam/work fatigue? Hopefully not something dire...

A Sebastian-fest would be wonderful *g* - do we have a chronology?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

PoV - it used to be just ordinary writing to write multipe PoVs all at once, and as with anything written by a good writer, I have no problem with it at all! Anything written by a poor writer can go horribly wrong... the authors you quote are not poor writers! *g* I almost have more of a problem with the idea that a story must only be in a single pov, must only be this...and this or this.... You can kill a story dead by saying "you can't do that"... *g*

Back to Sebastian - ooh, it would be interesting to read Sebastian in order, wouldn't it... and wouldn't that make an interesting series of reviews and discussions.... Hmmn - I wonder if we can make a chronology from her own website and all...

Dates/approx dates
1982 - Adagio (Author: So there I was in 1982...Adagio was my first shot at a Pros story)
1982 - Flu (Author: The second story I ever wrote)
1982? - Army Games (Author: A very early story indeed, possibly the second I ever wrote/ Circuit: Paper Circuit)
???? - B & D Beside the Sea (Author: Another very early story)
1983? - Catharsis (Part 2 of Adagio series/Circuit: Paper Circuit, 1983)
1983? - The Homecoming (Part 3 of Adagio/Circuit: Paper Circuit, 1983)
1984 - Pleasure Bent (Circuit: The Hatstand Express 4, 1984)
1985 - Hyperion to a Satyr (Circuit: Hatstand Express Fiction Supplement 3/Hatstand for HEFS3 August 1985)
1990 - Velvet Underground (Circuit: Paean to Priapus I, Oblique Publications, 1990)
1991 - The Smallest Room (Circuit: Concupiscence, Manacles Press, 1991)
1991 - November (Circuit: ...As Two £3 Notes, Oblique Publications, 1991)
1992 - First Night, Last Night (Circuit: What If?, Manacles Press, 1992)
1992 - Perfect Day (Circuit: Unprofessional Conduct 1, Gryphon Press, 1992)
1992? - Down to the Waterline (Author: Here, ten -- or is it twelve! -- years later, is my version/Circuit: Sweet Surrender - Paper Circuit c.1982-1985, so +10/12 years = 1992-1997!)
pre-1994 - Siren (Circuit: 5th story, Freezing by Helen Raven, Unprofessional Conduct 3, Gryphon Press, 1994)
pre-1994 - Bound to the Mast (Siren series)
pre-1994 - Going for the Shore I (Siren series)
pre-1994 - Going for the Shore II (Siren series)
1995 - After Ojuka (Circuit Archive: Bene Dictum II: Half 'n' Half, Oblique Publications, 1995)
1995 - Wonderful Tonight (Circuit: Bene Dictum II: Noughts & Crosses, Oblique Publications, 1995)
1997 - Et In Italia Ego (Circuit: Paean to Priapus VI: Chiaroscuro, Oblique Publications, 1997)
1997 - Shooting to Kill (Circuit: Paean to Priapus VI: Chiaroscuro, Oblique Publications, 1997)
1997 - Pantomime (Circuit: Unprofessional Conduct 7, Gryphon Press, 1997)
1999 - Breakfast at Tiffany's (Circuit: Celebrations, Gryphon Press, 1999)
2006 - In the Grotto (Author: via Foxhole on the Roof/Hard Facts chatboard)

No dates found yet
Between the Lines
Just a Kiss
On Heat
Plain Sailing
Such a Day Tomorrow
The Anniversary
The Ball Was Good (Author: Another very early story.)
The Jungle Book
Total Eclipse
Truth Beauty
Vivamus, Amemus
Who Gave Us Delight

Well, that's as far as I've got so far - it's a start, at least... *g*

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

Have just lost a reply to something down the page *headdesk*, but I have to say *yay* for listing!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh no - sorry you lost your reply... but yeay for yeay! *g* Glad I got in to edit out my bad coding before you replied though - but sorry about repeated edits in your inbox!

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

1985 - Hyperion to a Satyr (Circuit: Hatstand Express Fiction Supplement 3/Hatstand for HEFS3 August 1985)

Part One was in THE issue 3, which has a pub. date of October 1984. Parts 2-4 were in the Hatstand Express Fiction Supplement no. 3, pub. date Aug '85.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

You star - but I've just realised the quirk to my otherwise damn fine plan - I can't edit my list now..! Hmmn, maybe I should make it a post of its own though, just for fun... *g*

[msmoat.livejournal.com]

I love this story, as I do most of Sebastian's stories. It's gorgeous and interesting, deeply emotional (her speciality, really), and very satisfying. It's interesting what you say about POV. I agree that the story works well using both--switching from Doyle early on to Bodie later on, emphasizing Bodie's change. I would argue, though, that the line you quoted is a slipping POV, and not necessary. We're in Doyle's pov then, and could easily have had this thought of Bodie's slipped in later, when in Bodie's pov, to get that particular take on the early scene. Sebastian, particularly in her early stories, made a lot of technical errors, but the reader is so wrapped up in the gorgeousness of it all that it is easy to ignore/forgive/not care. *g* I love the revelation scene in this, when Bodie knows, finally, what he wants, and how he's blown it, and how that changes him. It's a really nice story, isn't it?

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

I would argue, though, that the line you quoted is a slipping POV...

Ah. Yes, if it wasn't otherwise clear, I was talking about moments of POV slippage, rather than what the POV is in a particular section.

...not necessary.... could easily have had this thought of Bodie's slipped in later, when in Bodie's pov, to get that particular take on the early scene.

I agree, POV slippage is a technical error and best avoided (generally bleeding obvious and distracting).

It doesn't mean that it can't be done deliberately, or that the alternative is necessarily better. Leaving aside the intent vs inadvertent error issue, in this case I wonder if putting off that revelation would dull the one-two punch of Bodie's words and thoughts in the original paragraph. There's an intimacy here (in the sense of being close to BOTH men - perhaps that is something particular to fan fiction, where pairings defy the usual labels :) that holding off might lessen:

"Bodie whispered in his ear, a wicked smile curving his lips, "Olive oil." He was pleased that Doyle was going to be reasonable; for a moment there he'd thought he might be tricky. "

the reader is so wrapped up in the gorgeousness of it all that it is easy to ignore/forgive/not care.

Absolutely.

[msmoat.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I'll never agree that deliberately slipping in pov is a valid artistic choice. (Well, okay, I can see the circumstances, but they would be extremely rare...or involving species that have no mental boundaries, and even then... *g*) No, but seriously, if you want to be inside the head of both men, then you either switching between them in well-defined sections, or go omniscient. The problem with omniscient is that it tends to take away some of the intimacy that you get with tight third person, but it can be done very well. MFae, as you mentioned, often uses omniscient.

If, as in this passage, you really want to convey Bodie's thoughts, but you're in Doyle's head, then you find a way to do it that doesn't involve slipping. That's the whole point of developing skill as a writer. It might be a later revelation, as I suggested, that then creates a whole new set of thoughts for the reader when it is revealed. It might be a description or combination of description/words that the reader picks up on but Doyle doesn't. But that is why it can be such a struggle to write well--figuring out how to convey something that is tricky because of other artistic choices you've made.

I know many people in fandom don't care one way or the other about such things. *g* I do. So, for me that slippage takes me momentarily out of the story every time. I love the story, so I go back, but I certainly notice it as jarring.

ETA: You know, upon further reflection (on my dog walk, where I meant to think about my BB story, but... *g*), I think she is actually using omniscient in this story. By the last section, we're in both heads, aren't we? So, she's dipping in and out more or less throughout, although focused more on Doyle to begin with, and then Bodie later? It has been several years since I read this. Certainly, this story is one where omniscient works perfectly well--the characters are, indeed, thinking/feeling pretty much what the reader (and they themselves) think they are thinking/feeling. So, what I'm arguing above is moot.*g* It's not the same sort of omniscient that MFae does, with a strong narrative voice, but I think it is omniscient. (As opposed to slipping.) And trust Sebastian to use omniscient and still retain all the intimacy of tight 3rd. *g*

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

Oh, I hope I haven't distracted you too much from BB, but...

this story is one where omniscient works perfectly well

I silently squee, because I am never sure, but if you think so *g*. I mean, M Fae is very obviously storytelling, that's her style and I can actually tell :) This is more subtle.

I would love to talk about this more, with examples.

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

You know, upon further reflection (on my dog walk, where I meant to think about my BB story, but... *g*), I think she is actually using omniscient in this story. By the last section, we're in both heads, aren't we?

Aren't we in them both right from the start? Okay, much less in Part I, but at the end of Part II, we have "He [Bodie] shook the thoughts off, aware of over-justification." and "'Be wasting time,' Doyle warned, but he [ie, Doyle] had already decided..." in adjacent sentences.

And a couple of paragraphs up from that is "Casual heroism, peculiar to those unfamiliar with danger, or to whom it is routine" which doesn't sound read to me like we're with either character but with the author. This would be the narrative voice you're referring to, yes?

(Caveat: I may well not know what omniscient means :))

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Popped back here to finally reply to something else, and found this... I agree, Sebastian writes us into both lads' heads, and I've never had a problem with that. It used to be just the way people wrote - I've shelves of books, by well-renowned authors, all of them writing this way. And it doesn't have to be the big storyteller narrative voice, like M.Fae Glasgow uses either - I differ from MsMoat in thinking that an author can very effectively use a single change of pov to convey something extra in the story, to take the reader to the place she wants them to be. But that is different to suddenly throwing us into someone else's head, which is how it feels when it's done badly... that's the author at fault though, not the technique per se... and that's also always going to depend on the reader, because what some people find effective and barely notice unless it's pointed out, other people will cry "foul" on... *g*

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

OK, I lost the reply here, but roughly what I was going to say was - I've been going through some Hatstand Expresses, for historical purposes (did you know the word 'circuit was never mentioned until issue 6? - it was 'the network' or 'the usual sources' or just 'making copies for people'), and I realised that omniscient was much more common then. I mean, I sort of knew, but it was that abstract knowing, rather than reading and going "u-huh" about it.

So when did that "tight third" thing and only seeing one viewpoint take over? Not that it's bad - great for misdirection and misunderstandings, but there's something about being a voyeur and seeing more than one side :)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oooh, interesting about the word circuit... so that'd be... 1985, according to Hatstand (I don't have many HEs - waaaah! I'd definitely like to read more of them...) Still pretty early though, and I guess it takes a while to come up with a name for things that you just do...

Yeah - I remember the whole pov discussion really striking me when I came into fandom, because I'd never particularly thought about it before. And gradually realising that it really did seem to be a fanfic-based discussion (well, I'm sure it's out there in "literary" circles too! *g*) - that the vast majority of books I read and re-read dance in and out of perspectives all the time... I wonder if it's to do with the fact that as "amateur" writers, we're often still learning the ropes, and so discussing things like that is all part of learning the writing ropes (not that "professional" writers don't often need to learn to do things much better than some of them do!)? But of course, where anything's discussed, it can become "an issue", and suddenly people are laying down guidelines, and rules and all...

As you say, nothing wrong with tight pov, but I'm just as happy with seeing different perspectives, and sometimes the odd, well-places line from a different pov can be like a breath of fresh air to a story...

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

Actually, the more I look the more I find. There's:

"he pounced with the weapon he had been waiting all these weeks to use"

"as Doyle turned his back again and continued to take the steps three at a time, now, unseen, Bodie smiled again. "

"He looked seriously down at the dishevelled figure, taking in the stormy eyes huge in the almost-boyish face, the obstinate set of the round chin. Beautiful, no doubt about it, even in that nasty navy-checked bovver-boy's shirt."

"his mouth descended to the wilful pouting one that had made him determined to possess it the instant he had laid eyes on it"

"sharp ears picking up the tone, sharper eyes travelling over the disconsolate figure turned away from him"

...and there are a few other phrases that, while debatably could be the result of deductive reasoning on Doyle's part, fit much more neatly into the omniscient framework.

[snailbones.livejournal.com]

Goodness, another one I can't remember because it's been so long - all I can recall is enjoying it! Thanks for the reminder, I must reread it soon.

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

Do! It's a gorgeous read.