Reading Room X - Crossover Stories - Crazy After all These Years, by LilyK

[anna060957.livejournal.com]

Advance apologies if the cut doesn't work - this is my first post and I'm working on Aussie time just in case it all goes pear-shaped!!

This is a crossover with the Judge John Deed series and is set in the present time. In this TV series the lead role of John Deed is played by Martin Shaw.

I adore the Judge John Deed series not only for the purposes of drooling over the main character (despite being a Bodie-girl, MS really has aged well!), but also for the depth of research, examination into and exploration of the circumstances surrounding crime and justice. This crossover is not bogged down by any of that! Don’t try to rationalise this caper, don’t try to make any interpretation of how and why – you just have to enjoy it – or not as the case may be.

Having read the first of this Crossover Reading Room “Contretemps” (and loved it), “Still Crazy After All These Years” is at the exact opposite end of the scale!



The title alone opens the question of what definition has been put on “crazy” - wild, passionate or mad. This story almost romps along, verging on farce when our two heroes are trying to escape from the baddies in an ancient plane. That said, there are some notable exchanges of humour and banter reminiscent of the B&D we know and love.

WAPB is a helicopter pilot, (still) working for CI5 and has the job of flying JJD to safety. A shoot-out puts them into an ancient aeroplane and then in hiding where, having revealed himself so to speak, John Deed, who was working undercover as Ray Doyle, asks for Bodie’s forgiveness for the events of the past which resulted in their relationship ending – both in CI5 and as lovers. The cabin is torched or bombed, not too sure which, they escape, but Bodie is injured. Deed rescues him, tends his wounds and the two of them, in turn, are rescued. They talk through the past and their feelings and end up with Bodie being retired out of CI5 and an, almost, touching scene at the end where they decide to start again, but recognising Deed’s acknowledged inability to be faithful.

For me, there was an initial confusion about JJD knowing who Bodie was, but Bodie not making the connection with various references by JJD to Bodie and his relationship with him thirty years before. It turns out that JJD is in disguise. (A rather amateur attempt one feels, but clearly enough to ensure Bodie doesn’t recognise him!) The disclosure that John Deed was in fact under-cover as Ray Doyle is almost unbelievable and yet somehow this doesn’t detract from the story.

I liked:
JJD in learning of Cowley’s death ...
If it were up to him, he'd go at ninety-five, shot by a jealous husband after he'd gleefully screwed the prat's thirty-year-old wife.

... and ...
"Shhh. We've got company."
Bodie removed his hand when Deed nodded. "Who?"
"Who the fuck do you think?"
"How?"
"How the hell should I know? I didn't tell anybody, now, did I?

The speech patterns for JJD are definitely not in character. I don’t think he would have used “fuck” quite so often. The use of four letter words tends to be attributed to those who have a poor knowledge of the English language and Deed does not come anywhere near that. However, Bodie’s use of “fuck” in the extract above, fits into the frame of the story at that point.

From a beta point of view, there are a number of grammatical errors and the whole piece could do with a good proof-read, which always makes me want to contact the author and ask if I can sort them out! I don’t think Bodie would continue to refer to Deed as granddad, etc after finding out who he was and I’m not convinced they would split up after the cabin (where do you have cabins in England [or creeks come to that?]) burned down.

However, that said, this is a romping tale which has the potential to be taken more seriously, because the plot – although not particularly original – is a good one. It’s a fun cross-over - read and enjoy!

Comments

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

What a bastard!

And it's interesting that exactly the same line you liked, was my first moment of discomfort.
"Poor bastard... If it were up to him, he'd go at ninety-five, shot by a jealous husband after he'd gleefully screwed the prat's thirty-year-old wife."
That's utterly ignorant and stupid IMO.

And then:
"Deed had never had that loyalty. Never did like the bunch. Not one little whit... Sodding Bodie, and bleedin' Cowley, and rotten CI5..."
That's certainly no one who was torn away from Bodie because of terrible circumstances - the way I need it - no, this is someone who has done his undercover job for five(?) years, and that's it for him...

And this first vague impression is affirmed later in the story.
"Bodie? Listen. I'm sorry how everything worked out--back then. I meant to get in touch after everything settled, but one thing led to another..."
Oh yeah?

This " God, how he'd missed his mate." is a bit unbelievable for my taste!

There are more 'not so nice' JJD moments... for example that he goes to sleep while Bodie is nearly bleeding to death somewhere in the woods.
And in the end he sends a plant while Bodie is in hospital and his only excuse is ''I meant to visit, but..."
A plant? Is Bodie a bloody secretary? And no time to visit...?

So for me, there is nothing likeable about this man. And I don't even like this Bodie because he lets Deed fool him AGAIN.

Nonetheless I didn't stop reading, I even DID enjoy the story!
There was a lot of banter and linguistic joke to do so, and I like most of Kat's stories.
I had to grin about:
"What do you wish me to address you as, Your Highness?" Bodie asked, his grin widened.
"Arse."
"Berk."
"Prat."
"Prick."
Still, Bodie's smile never dimmed. Deed shook his head in exasperation and sighed. "Call me Mortimer,"
I really love it when they are childish! ;-)

Then there is the 'Duck tape holds the world together' scene , and " "Far enough. Unless you'd rather crash from lack of fuel!" - "No, landing is fine," Deed admitted." and then the 'few errant sheep grazing alongside.'
This kind of writing is exactly my cup of tea! Thrilling and witty, even a bit ironic. Easy, natural writing.

So the story was certainly no wasted time! :-)
Thank you for the rec!

[anna060957.livejournal.com]

Thank you for taking the time to read and comment.

I think there has been a comment in an earlier exchange that crossovers only really work, ie satisfy a Professionals fan, by including both Bodie and Doyle as themselves. This has been highlighted by a number of the crossovers we have read over the last few weeks where this has not been the case and we (the Pros fans) are left feeling dissatisfied. This one, as suggested in my rec, does not bear any scrutiny and belief has to be suspended if it is to be read and enjoyed.

Describing Deed as a bastard is, I would suggest, quite right – he is!!! That quote "Poor bastard... If it were up to him, he'd go at ninety-five, shot by a jealous husband after he'd gleefully screwed the prat's thirty-year-old wife." Could easily have been attributed to Deed, although perhaps he would not have been quite so crude – my previous comment about Deed’s language refers. You don’t say if you have seen the TV series, but I think it does help with reading any crossover, if only to be in a position to recognise the intersection and interaction of the two elements.

The extremes of Deed’s emotions, in the first place leaving Bodie without a backward glance and not visiting him in hospital, and then on the other hand emotionally wounded by the time apart, " God, how he'd missed his mate." would also, I think, fit Deed’s character – although I could be making a very complex character just a little too straightforward.

Thank you for taking the time to comment.

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

Psssssssst.... Quite quiet here....

Just one thought, I'm in a hurry.

"....ie satisfy a Professionals fan, by including both Bodie and Doyle as themselves. "
Good point! And for me it is so true. It's not easy to be wittness how the image of your heroes is destroyed. As if everything was just a lie.

I don't know much about JJD, but maybe this is more a JJD/Pros crossover than the other way around?

[anna060957.livejournal.com]

I don't know much about JJD, but maybe this is more a JJD/Pros crossover than the other way around?

Mmmm ... Interesting suggestion. Deed is certainly a very complex character (much more than either Bodie or Doyle – and I think that was one of the criticisms of the actors at the time, that they had not been “allowed” to develop their characters).

I don’t, and would not (certainly at the moment) consider reading any other fics.

With reference to your icon – I love George Gently too!

(Very definitely NOT quiet here!!)

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

Whilst the actual story (the 'romp') and the banter were good, I was thrown by the basic premise.

Deed is an English judge and therefore a lawyer. Brit lawyers train from the age of 17 or 18 and the route to the 'top' is extremely competitive. It is also very narrow and it seems inconceivable to me that a youngish lawyer (presumably a barrister if he's heading for the judiciary) would have time/interest/permission to do undercover work of any kind - particularly for five years. And if he did, he would lose that competitive edge in his profession plus the government/court personel who advise on appointments would not under any circumstances recommend him for the bench. So the story simply didn't make sense for me. I kept expecting some other kind of explanation which of course never materialised.

I suspect that the author transferred American practices into a UK situation, because there were other 'Americanisms' in the fic. Not the language but minor plot aspects. I was trying to imagine the 'wilds' of Suffolk with a gamekeeper's cabin, and failing. I was puzzled by the clearly Mafia-style Italian crime family who just didn't sound likely in a Brit context.

I suppose I should have suspended disbelief for the sake of the story but I couldn't so the story didn't work for me. This was not an AU in the sense that it dealt with the 'real' Bodie, Doyle and Deed, so I wanted some kind of realism in the plot.

Thanks for your efficient review. I can understand someone who wasn't thrown by the points that concerned me enjoying the fic!

[anna060957.livejournal.com]

Thank you for taking the time to read and comment.

Your suggestion about a confusion between American and British law training I’m sure is relevant although I have little knowledge of either. I’m not sure about never being able to do anything other than being a member of the judiciary – certainly there is encouragement to continue learning throughout life and anyone could, in theory, train to be a lawyer/solicitor or whatever later in life. In fact in one JDD episode, someone before Deed has studied to be a lawyer whilst serving a prison sentence. However, you are probably right (and I would like to think so) about any member of the judiciary would have to be whiter and white, above suspicion and certainly not have any skeletons in any cupboards (or closets!)

There are certain Americanisms (cabin and creek come to mind) and I think it rather depends on the quality of the story as a whole whether or not these grate or have an effect on ones enjoyment of the story.

As I said, I think you have to avoid too much analysis in certain crossovers – and definitely this one! - and allow yourself to read the story as it stands. Having said that, and I’m repeating myself here (sorry! :)) I am convinced that crossovers only really work, ie satisfy a Professionals fan, by including both Bodie and Doyle as themselves. This, and a number of others under this RR theme have failed in this respect.

Thank you for your time.

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

You're quite right that anyone can train for the legal profession at any age. However, they almost certainly couldn't reach the judiciary unless they started early and kept a narrow focus. I agree about over-analysis of stories but was unable to get into this one because of my initial bewilderment. So I'm sure it works 'as it stands' if it stands for you in the first place! I'm glad it did, for you, because the writing is otherwise excellent and I like lily_k's stories as a rule.

[heliophile-oxon.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your review and summary, anna! I think I'm another person who pretty much agrees with you - I wouldn't have read this (or at least not all the way through) if it weren't for the Reading Room, because I find things jarring on a number of levels. While I do like some of the banter, I am thrown out of the story by the non-UK feel of so much of it - the setting in particular (actually I thought at first glance that the author had simply decided to throw the UK out altogether and relocate her characters to somewhere in the US or possibly Canada). And of course I can't really get into a story where Doyle never actually existed but was in fact Deed undercover - I've only seen a couple of episodes of JJD, but they're completely different people (of course!) - there's no sense in which JD could be the person RD became years after what we see in Pros. Even more importantly, the relationship doesn't ring true - for JD to swan off and abandon Bodie so completely could be in character for him, but never for Doyle; and it's the close bond of equals between Doyle and Bodie that is the whole point of it all, for me!

So, thank you for sticking your neck out in the interests of discussion, and bringing a fic to the table with so many things to annoy *g* - I bet that's the main reason relatively few of us are commenting this time *bg* - this is a character that doesn't grab me (I've never been motivated to read JJD fic, for example), being the total prick he is, somewhere in a different continent altogether! (Though I should add, it's by no means impossible to use JJD to very good effect in Pros fic - Contretemps is a brilliant example of this, imo)

[anna060957.livejournal.com]

At the risk of embarrassing myself even more than usual, I though rec was short for reconnoitre (ie, checking the story out on behalf of the wider community) rather than recommendation, so I didn’t realise I was sticking my neck out! But what would we do without the Reading Room to guide us?!

Having said that I did enjoy reading this despite my not entirely positive analysis! I'm also very conscious that I'm a reader and not a writer and and have huge respect for the talent of the authors offered to us unconditionally.

I'm very much a mono-fic reader - I don't (and would not) read any other fic - well, not at the moment anyway!

Thank you for your time!

[heliophile-oxon.livejournal.com]

Oh I think you're absolutely right, the Reading Room reviews are definitely seen as - and are - reconnoitering rather than recommending! I just meant it in the sense of reviewing a fic that had a chance of getting slightly less response than one that everyone was likely to love. Though thinking about why something doesn't work is just as interesting! So thanks again (from another currently mono-fic reader *g*)

[anna060957.livejournal.com]

OK, point taken. I look on the Reading Room as the Book Club I can join (as opposed to the Book Club in our village that I can’t join because of time, etc, etc, etc constraints). Even if a fic was universally loved, there would, I’m sure, be something to discuss ....

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

"...and it's the close bond of equals between Doyle and Bodie that is the whole point of it all, for me!"
Exactly! :-) (and I'm another mono-fic reader.)
I don't like this JJD and I miss Doyle, but I would never go so far to use the word 'annoy'(even not with a *g*) to describe this fic.

"I am thrown out of the story by the non-UK feel of so much of it... (actually I thought at first glance that the author had simply decided to throw the UK out altogether and relocate her characters to somewhere in the US or possibly Canada)"...
This really seems not fair to the author who has done a lot of beautiful stories, and is certainly nobody who deliberately changes local conditions just for fun. But aren't we allowed to let our imagination wander?

[heliophile-oxon.livejournal.com]

Oh I agree, LilyK is a fine writer! Some of her other stories are among my favourites. But I do think that in this particular instance there are things that don't work.

If I remember rightly, one of the things people were chatting about back and forth when the Reading Room started was that it can be a sticky business navigating one's way around concrit. I think - and I hope people will set me straight if I'm wrong - that the idea was to be a bit more "warts and all" here than we might otherwise be (for myself, for instance, I consciously try to move away from only mentioning the bits I like which is what I'm more likely to do elsewhere). So while nobody, I'm sure, would come to the RR only in order to come down heavily on a story, we do come with the understanding that there can be more unvarnished comments - hopefully constructive ones, though, and you're right to imply that I could have put it more tactfully. For that I would apologise to LilyK (if she happens to be reading), but I did actually think for a moment there that she'd made an authorial decision to relocate the characters away from the UK - which would of course be fine, if one is going down an AU-ish sort of route. We are absolutely allowed to let our imagination wander! It was the internal consistency of the story that was shaken for me by my location doubts.

[anna060957.livejournal.com]

I have to say that I didn’t find the location too out of order although on re-reading, perhaps there was a little too much “space”. At the risk of stereotyping, and I say this from my experience of beta-ing, this is an area (excuse the pun) which can be a stumbling block for American writers. The UK doesn’t have vast tracts of land where our heroes can get lost. There are some remote, inhospitable and inaccessible areas, but these tend not to be near London!

A writer must, of course, use her/his imagination, but a fanfic should, I would suggest, remain within the parameters of the setting and use the characters as they appear in the original ”universe”, otherwise it’s not fanfic.

[anna060957.livejournal.com]

I know heliophile_oxon has responded, but may I add ....

I think this response appears elsewhere, but possibly worth repeating.
A writer must, of course, use her/his imagination, but a fanfic should, I would suggest, remain within the parameters of the setting and use the characters as they appear in the original ”universe”, otherwise it’s not fanfic. In my role as a Beta, I try very hard to make positive comments with suggestions about why something doesn’t quite work (for me) and I think this positive critique element is very strong in CI5HQ.

[margaret-r.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with general opinion here and that’s a shame because I really like LilyK’s work so it was disappointing not to be able to connect with this fic - mostly because Doyle as Deed or Deed as Doyle simply didn’t work, they are just too different so the result, for me, was that they seemed like neither. This carried through to the setting and scenario too, which seemed unrealistic most of the time. There was some good dialogue throughout and some nice banter so it’s really a shame that the overall impression had to be one of disappointment.

Thanks for a great review:) I can see why you would like the fic if you’re fond of Judge John Deed and perhaps it would be better to consider it more of a Deed crossover than a Pros one.

[anna060957.livejournal.com]

Thank you for taking the time to read and comment.

Deed is certainly a very complex character (much more than either Bodie or Doyle – and I think that was one of the criticisms of the actors at the time, that they had not been “allowed” to develop their characters).

At the first and second readings, I had not had that much trouble with the setting (apart from the few Americanisms), but others have commented about the scenario and it may be that I allowed too much leeway? Comments have been made about American authors needing a Brit check from people of a certain age as anyone under thirty will have been influenced much more by American culture in England. Needless to say, I’m “that age”!!

[nypagan.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the rec anna. I had read this before and other Lilyk works as well. To me this story was humorous, tongue-in-cheek, even though she tried to present a life&death scenario. It was good for entertainment, with a hint of possibility. I don't believe Bodie would not have confronted Deed/Doyle after seeing him in the papers or in the court. I could believe Doyle not contacting Bodie at all over the years and not visiting in hospital. The ending was cute, at this point in their lives, not much left to hide from anymore.

Someone mentioned the Americanisms and a need for proofreading. That happens, and as an American, it doesn't bother me much. Britishisms in US based fandom can be annoying too! Brook/creek, cabin/cottage, you can still understand the story.

[anna060957.livejournal.com]

Thank you for taking the time to read and comment.

That happens, and as an American, it doesn't bother me much. Britishisms in US based fandom can be annoying too! Brook/creek, cabin/cottage, you can still understand the story.

You’re quite right of course, but where there are too many, or very obvious ones, it can throw the reader out of the story. The Professionals, as you well know, was set in the late 1970s/early 1980s and since then a great deal of American culture has crept into our lives. For some of us, the Americanisms are a problem (ask anyone I beta for!!) and if they can be eliminated, the (older/British at least) reader can concentrate on the story rather than simply become annoyed at the inaccuracies. I do think it’s no different than any basic research an author would make. I would be equally annoyed by, say, a nurse taking a temperature with a stethoscope!

This is a different type of work and I agree that it is good for entertainment, with a hint of possibility.

[nypagan.livejournal.com]

I didn't think there were that many "Americanisms" in this story. I've seen worse. I guess I don't understand how a few misplaced words can detract from overall enjoyment of a story. Some of the other fandoms I read, I can tell when it is a British author based on the language. I've never read any complaints that a story in those fandoms should have been more "Americanized".

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

Cheers!

[anna060957.livejournal.com]

There aren't that many actually - but the two which stuck were cabin and creek. Creek simply isn't used in the UK (even in the twenty-first century), we have streams - ie, a small run of water before it becomes a river. Cabin doesn't really translate exactly, probably due to the available area. As already mentioned, the UK does have some very remote areas, but the remoteness tends to be linked directly with barren and/or inhospitable. The Brecon Beacons in Wales and the highlands of Scotland are good examples. But even the moors can be potentially life-threatening due to their odd weather conditions rather than a vast or remote issue. So, other than the odd “Hunting Lodge” (with initial capitals and not at all small or austere) it would be unlikely that there would be an uninhabited cottage available for the boys to shelter in. This is a very long explanation of a very small point, but in this instance, I think the choice of words possibly threw the reader, whereas the odd “z” instead of “s” would not have had the same affect.

[firlefanzine.livejournal.com]

"There aren't that many actually - but the two which stuck were cabin and creek."
We are talking about so few words? And the assumption that there are no woods in Britain you can spend some time hiding?
That really seems like bean counting to me!
O girls, I'm lucky to be no native speaker! ;-)

[anna060957.livejournal.com]

I’m sure we could debate this forever (!). In this instance, it was those two words which I chose to use as examples. Had I been asked to beta this story, I would have suggested alternatives simply because I consider that is what I’m being asked to do by the author (having had a conversation with them to ensure they are aware of the way I beta). Personally, the Americanisms did not throw me out of this story – I enjoyed it for what it is.

You may well have started a parallel discussion!

We really don't have that many places you can get lost in ... well, not if you're a (secret) agent or a member of the SAS! In fact, you're probably more likely to get lost in Hyde Park, in the middle of London - it's huge!

[heliophile-oxon.livejournal.com]

Very much agree re regionalisms - whether British or US or NZ or SA or Oz or Canada or anywhere else! It's one of the reasons I would never dream of trying to write in a fandom from anywhere else unless I could get the help of a regionpicker (and the only time I ever did try, I found myself writing a monologue for a canonically British character *g*). And it's not just vocab, it's speech rhythms above all, and cultural references I think are crucial. I wouldn't expect a reader to have to put up with my Brit-type foibles where they don't belong - and I know I'd get it all wrong if I tried to set a story in a culture I don't know; I know how a pub works but not a bar, let alone regional differences within a country! We can get a lot right (well, proper writers can, I mean; I don't mean me!) by watching the show a lot, but you still need a regionpicker to catch the mistakes that slip through. Of course we can grit our teeth and ignore the non-regional elements if we have to - but why not make it so much better by eliminating them if we can?

Oh, that's not about this specific story and absolutely not about LilyK in particular btw; just a general grr about fanfic writing in general.

[anna060957.livejournal.com]

I am generally impressed by any author who writes Pros fiction who is not British (and sometimes hasn’t even seen all the episodes!!) As a reader only, I am just thankful that there are so many authors producing so much wonderful fiction for me to read! Having said that, I would suggest (modestly) that a good Brit check is likely to improve reader satisfaction!

[heliophile-oxon.livejournal.com]

You've put it much better than I could. It's great that people are writing in Pros (personally I'm blown away by the fact that some people are even writing in their second (or third/any number higher than first) language!) and it's just a shame that sometimes you see an otherwise perfectly fine ship given feet of clay for want of a ha'p'orth of tar Brit-checking, to thoroughly mangle my metaphor.

[anna060957.livejournal.com]

*bg*
Mangled metaphors ... excellent!

[nypagan.livejournal.com]

My point is that I try not to be annoyed by words or phrasing in US show fandoms written by non-US fans. Such as saying lift instead of elevator, trolley instead of cart, lorry/truck, sister/nurse, vest/t-shirt, jumper/sweater, trainers/sneakers, biscuits/cookies, etc... As a US fan of a British tv show, I expect the British language and there are many awesome non-Brit writers out there who incorporate the terminology very easily into their stories. (I think) As I try not to throw stones at the non-US writers of US show fiction, I don't want those stones thrown in this direction either.