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ci5hqSo... following on from my Reading Room review of Poison Apples I went off and read the sequel this morning, which is alleged to be an anti-slash sequel, "fixing" the B/D relationship of the first story. I then found a few discusions about this over at ProsLit, and based on both those things I can say that the rumour that Apples for the Lady is anti-slash, and fixes, or counters the lads' slashed relationship is absolute rubbish!
I'm very much against the idea of "fixing" a slash story (what's there to fix?), but even though I went into this fic thinking grrrr, at no point did I find the author trying to do that! The story ends with Bodie still very much in love with Doyle, and with Doyle, who was made to forget their relationship as payment to the goddess for the return of his soul, beginning to remember it after all.
Apples for the Lady is not an anti-slash story!
Okay - most of this explanation is based on a comment I wrote in reply to![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
kiwisue, in the above-mentioned post (in case you've read it there!)
I've just read Apples for the Lady, which was... interesting. I didn't entirely get it as an anti-slash story, and for me the slash wasn't actually undone. It's pretty clear at the end that Bodie is still in love with Doyle, and although Doyle has mostly forgotten what happened between them on the island, he does actually start to remember flashes again, which for me suggests that his falling in lust with Moire is just another temporary cover-up of the B/D soul-mateness, and that what will happen next is that the situation will be cleared up again. I'd really like to know more about this "T.D. Murphy" actually, and whether she intended it to be anti-slash. The "Lady" of the title refer to the sacrilige of Lord Summerisle usurping the place of the pagan goddess, and her claiming her "apples"/fertility/power etc back - you can twist the meaning of the title to back the idea that the story is about the pre-eminence of het over slash, but I think you have to work pretty hard to do that, once you've actually read the story. I wonder how many people who claim it's anti-slash actually have read it?
I couldn't find the old zines/letterzines I was hoping might have discussion of the story, but what I did find was two sets of discussion over at the Yahoo Group Pros-Lit, and I'm starting to see that the anti-slash claim has been built up over the years, reinforced by people who don't seem to have read the story at all.
I'm starting to see the building of a myth about these stories... *g* In an October 2002 ProsLib discussion of Poison Apples and its sequels, someone who hasn't read the stories for themselves remembers a discussion on a CI5 list, the gist of which was that the sequel tries to fix the slash relationship by making B/D het, and denying that the slash relationship in PA existed. This memory of a discussion is confirmed as being accurate to the sequel by someone who had read the stories - but I notice that she's not a native speaker of English. These descriptions of the sequel are then accepted by two other people. Now - I have rather an issue with this, because the original description isn't accurate (which I presume may have been part of the original discussion, not ventured into in the brief 2002 discussion, because only one of the discussants had read the stories at that stage!). In fact both characters are not made het at the end of the sequel - Bodie is very much still pining for Doyle. Nor is the existence of the slash relationship denied, as in fact Doyle starts to remember it just before the end, though he lets the memory go somewhat in the last paragraph - but there's a definite suggestion that the memory of it all hasn't been as forgotten as Bodie thinks it has. So...
...aah, and happily the discussion continues a few posts further on with someone who has read the story - and interpreted the ending in the same way that I did, but additionally notes that the woman Doyle is fancying at the end looks alot like Bodie (and Doyle notices this, too). Someone in the discussion wonders whether the author claimed it to be anti-slash, it's noted that there is no such claim made in the zine (or even that it was a sequel to Poison Applies) - *checks zine - quite right on both counts* The discussion veers off to other stories, then.
Okay, then there's a 2008 discussion around 19th February at the same group where, following its description by someone as "countering" the slash version, the middle story is claimed to be "a het version" by various people who haven't read it. Someone notes that the titles reflect the move from slash to het to slash again (I don't think they do though, in the middle story - see above!) Someone then decides to "skip" the middle story on the basis that it's het/anti-slash... and then the discussion goes back to Poison Apples itself, and thus a myth continues, and people have been encouraged to avoid reading a story - and in this conversation there's no suggestion that anyone in it has read the story (of course they may have, and not described it)! Wow - such fascinating stuff, the creation of fandom myth and legend! And death to some fics, but not others.... It was noted, for example, that whilst neither sequel is as well-written as the first one, the third sequel is the least well written - and yet the second is the one that people refuse to read!
Another claim made throughout these ProsLit discussions is that T.D. Murphy meant her story to end there, as an anti-slash story. Apart from the fact that I can't see it as anti-slash, I think words are again being put in someone's mouth - perhaps she did intend to write a sequel herself, and never got around to it? Perhaps she did, but left fandom before it was published (I don't think there's an ItPI IV). The fact that she didn't, though, is used to imply that she thought she'd "fixed" the original story - in fact I don't see any evidence of this, except that she did continue on from where the lads were bobbing in horror on the sea, from where Cowley's two best agents had been allowed to vanish up north with no notice, and the villains of the piece had got away with their villainry. I can see those things being "fixed", but not the lads' relationship.
There is one line which I blinked at - but I can't find it now! It was, I think, Aunt Margaret (or the Lady) telling Bodie that what we think we want isn't always what we really want. What I can find now is Cowley telling Bodie that The things we want are not the things that will be the best for us in the end - he's just been comparing Doyle to Annie Irvine, and thinking that he would have given up CI5 for Annie, as Bodie would for Doyle. But we've also been led to believe that Cowley's Aunt Margaret believes Bodie to be Cowley's son, and believes that both of them should be carrying on the priesthood of her religion - that of the Lady. She repeats several times that Bodie's place is with Cowley, and that there wouldn't have been such problems if Bodie hadn't put Doyle above Cowley. She gives Doyle some "medicine", and sends a beautiful woman into his room - "the most beautiful woman he'd ever seen", which in fact echoes Bodie's thoughts about Willow when he first encountered her on Summerisle after having drunk the Summerisle cider. So... I think there's alot more going on in this story than might be supposed - and again, it's not an anti-slash story!
I'm not saying it's a great story - there's much weirdness (the idea that Cowley would send in the SAS to round up the islanders!), and the odd Americanism, and Summerisle is absolutely reduced further until he's your average stupid-but-evil villain, rather than all he was in The Wicker Man, but there are some interesting twists and concepts, and I was never so bored that I didn't want to put it down.
I'd love to know what was said in that original CI5 List discussion, because I suspect that's where the myth about this being an anti-slash story began. I can see how a surface reading might give that impression, but not if you're paying any real attention to the story at all...
Right - that'll do for now, but who else has actually read "Apples for the Lady"? Do you read it as anti-slash, and if so how and why, and what do you make of the fact that Bodie is still in love with Doyle at the end, and that Doyle is beginning to remember their relationship and even recognises that the girl he now thinks is beautiful looks like Bodie?
I've got to say - I totally fell into the trap and avoided Apples for the Lady because it was supposed to be a) het and b) anti-slash. Thankfully I can now say for sure that it's neither...
I'm very much against the idea of "fixing" a slash story (what's there to fix?), but even though I went into this fic thinking grrrr, at no point did I find the author trying to do that! The story ends with Bodie still very much in love with Doyle, and with Doyle, who was made to forget their relationship as payment to the goddess for the return of his soul, beginning to remember it after all.
Apples for the Lady is not an anti-slash story!
Okay - most of this explanation is based on a comment I wrote in reply to
kiwisue, in the above-mentioned post (in case you've read it there!)I've just read Apples for the Lady, which was... interesting. I didn't entirely get it as an anti-slash story, and for me the slash wasn't actually undone. It's pretty clear at the end that Bodie is still in love with Doyle, and although Doyle has mostly forgotten what happened between them on the island, he does actually start to remember flashes again, which for me suggests that his falling in lust with Moire is just another temporary cover-up of the B/D soul-mateness, and that what will happen next is that the situation will be cleared up again. I'd really like to know more about this "T.D. Murphy" actually, and whether she intended it to be anti-slash. The "Lady" of the title refer to the sacrilige of Lord Summerisle usurping the place of the pagan goddess, and her claiming her "apples"/fertility/power etc back - you can twist the meaning of the title to back the idea that the story is about the pre-eminence of het over slash, but I think you have to work pretty hard to do that, once you've actually read the story. I wonder how many people who claim it's anti-slash actually have read it?
I couldn't find the old zines/letterzines I was hoping might have discussion of the story, but what I did find was two sets of discussion over at the Yahoo Group Pros-Lit, and I'm starting to see that the anti-slash claim has been built up over the years, reinforced by people who don't seem to have read the story at all.
I'm starting to see the building of a myth about these stories... *g* In an October 2002 ProsLib discussion of Poison Apples and its sequels, someone who hasn't read the stories for themselves remembers a discussion on a CI5 list, the gist of which was that the sequel tries to fix the slash relationship by making B/D het, and denying that the slash relationship in PA existed. This memory of a discussion is confirmed as being accurate to the sequel by someone who had read the stories - but I notice that she's not a native speaker of English. These descriptions of the sequel are then accepted by two other people. Now - I have rather an issue with this, because the original description isn't accurate (which I presume may have been part of the original discussion, not ventured into in the brief 2002 discussion, because only one of the discussants had read the stories at that stage!). In fact both characters are not made het at the end of the sequel - Bodie is very much still pining for Doyle. Nor is the existence of the slash relationship denied, as in fact Doyle starts to remember it just before the end, though he lets the memory go somewhat in the last paragraph - but there's a definite suggestion that the memory of it all hasn't been as forgotten as Bodie thinks it has. So...
...aah, and happily the discussion continues a few posts further on with someone who has read the story - and interpreted the ending in the same way that I did, but additionally notes that the woman Doyle is fancying at the end looks alot like Bodie (and Doyle notices this, too). Someone in the discussion wonders whether the author claimed it to be anti-slash, it's noted that there is no such claim made in the zine (or even that it was a sequel to Poison Applies) - *checks zine - quite right on both counts* The discussion veers off to other stories, then.
Okay, then there's a 2008 discussion around 19th February at the same group where, following its description by someone as "countering" the slash version, the middle story is claimed to be "a het version" by various people who haven't read it. Someone notes that the titles reflect the move from slash to het to slash again (I don't think they do though, in the middle story - see above!) Someone then decides to "skip" the middle story on the basis that it's het/anti-slash... and then the discussion goes back to Poison Apples itself, and thus a myth continues, and people have been encouraged to avoid reading a story - and in this conversation there's no suggestion that anyone in it has read the story (of course they may have, and not described it)! Wow - such fascinating stuff, the creation of fandom myth and legend! And death to some fics, but not others.... It was noted, for example, that whilst neither sequel is as well-written as the first one, the third sequel is the least well written - and yet the second is the one that people refuse to read!
Another claim made throughout these ProsLit discussions is that T.D. Murphy meant her story to end there, as an anti-slash story. Apart from the fact that I can't see it as anti-slash, I think words are again being put in someone's mouth - perhaps she did intend to write a sequel herself, and never got around to it? Perhaps she did, but left fandom before it was published (I don't think there's an ItPI IV). The fact that she didn't, though, is used to imply that she thought she'd "fixed" the original story - in fact I don't see any evidence of this, except that she did continue on from where the lads were bobbing in horror on the sea, from where Cowley's two best agents had been allowed to vanish up north with no notice, and the villains of the piece had got away with their villainry. I can see those things being "fixed", but not the lads' relationship.
There is one line which I blinked at - but I can't find it now! It was, I think, Aunt Margaret (or the Lady) telling Bodie that what we think we want isn't always what we really want. What I can find now is Cowley telling Bodie that The things we want are not the things that will be the best for us in the end - he's just been comparing Doyle to Annie Irvine, and thinking that he would have given up CI5 for Annie, as Bodie would for Doyle. But we've also been led to believe that Cowley's Aunt Margaret believes Bodie to be Cowley's son, and believes that both of them should be carrying on the priesthood of her religion - that of the Lady. She repeats several times that Bodie's place is with Cowley, and that there wouldn't have been such problems if Bodie hadn't put Doyle above Cowley. She gives Doyle some "medicine", and sends a beautiful woman into his room - "the most beautiful woman he'd ever seen", which in fact echoes Bodie's thoughts about Willow when he first encountered her on Summerisle after having drunk the Summerisle cider. So... I think there's alot more going on in this story than might be supposed - and again, it's not an anti-slash story!
I'm not saying it's a great story - there's much weirdness (the idea that Cowley would send in the SAS to round up the islanders!), and the odd Americanism, and Summerisle is absolutely reduced further until he's your average stupid-but-evil villain, rather than all he was in The Wicker Man, but there are some interesting twists and concepts, and I was never so bored that I didn't want to put it down.
I'd love to know what was said in that original CI5 List discussion, because I suspect that's where the myth about this being an anti-slash story began. I can see how a surface reading might give that impression, but not if you're paying any real attention to the story at all...
Right - that'll do for now, but who else has actually read "Apples for the Lady"? Do you read it as anti-slash, and if so how and why, and what do you make of the fact that Bodie is still in love with Doyle at the end, and that Doyle is beginning to remember their relationship and even recognises that the girl he now thinks is beautiful looks like Bodie?
I've got to say - I totally fell into the trap and avoided Apples for the Lady because it was supposed to be a) het and b) anti-slash. Thankfully I can now say for sure that it's neither...
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no subject
Date: 2012-04-15 11:07 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-15 11:39 am (UTC)So do you remember thinking that it was "anti-slash" when you read it? Do you remember any of the discussion about the story?
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Date: 2012-04-15 12:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-15 01:14 pm (UTC)All of which is probably unfair, because you no doubt don't remember the details of the second story now!
I'd like to read the third sequel now, because I wonder if it "fixes" things that weren't necessarily broken, rather than continuing the story (if you know what I mean by the difference! *g*)... Hmmn, maybe I need to go and rummage in my storage, just in case it's over here after all...
no subject
Date: 2012-04-15 05:33 pm (UTC)All of which is probably unfair, because you no doubt don't remember the details of the second story now!
Not that much. *g* Them not ending up together, though, as in "as a pair," is what stood out for me.
I'd like to read the third sequel now, because I wonder if it "fixes" things that weren't necessarily broken, rather than continuing the story (if you know what I mean by the difference! *g*)... Hmmn, maybe I need to go and rummage in my storage, just in case it's over here after all...
I'd say a little of both, though probably more toward a fix (it is called Antidote for Apples, after all.)
no subject
Date: 2012-04-15 05:47 pm (UTC)But that perhaps depends on whether you think Apples for the Lady is broken... I must get hold of it now! *g*
no subject
Date: 2012-04-15 03:12 pm (UTC)But yes, that is pretty fascinating, how stories and myths get started - something that David Campbell would've loved, I bet (to be a bit morbid)... I wonder if this would've played out this way in the absence of the internet, or if whether the relative difficulty in finding the original (or in having a discussion about it) would have made people search out the other versions first?
Either way, I'd really love to get to them at some point. Another thing for the "once the foot is okay" list.
no subject
Date: 2012-04-15 05:46 pm (UTC)Actually, I've just realised that Apples for the Lady was written six years after the original Poison Apples... I wonder who T.D. Murphy was - I suspect it was someone else's pseudonym, because she doesn't come up as the author of any other story, as far as I know... though of course she could just have written the one...
Did I know that your foot was poorly? I'm sorry to hear it, anyway - hope it's better soon, it's not much fun to hobble!
no subject
Date: 2012-04-15 11:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-27 08:00 pm (UTC)And I'd say the ending was ambiguous, yes, but only in the sense of "is the situation retrievable?", and I quite like the occasional story like that. (I like Sunshine! I like the Pillory! I like Thomas-fic!) I know there's the female character at the end, but the whole run-up is pure slash. Everything they do, they do for love or anger/revenge on behalf of a lover.
Definitely buying this in the near future, because I want to re-read it properly.
Oh, and agreed on the art.
no subject
Date: 2012-07-26 08:08 pm (UTC)..and have now bought, and shall look forward to re-reading, but it is the last in the zine, so there are others to read first...
no subject
Date: 2012-04-16 08:14 am (UTC)I read “Apples for the Lady” last night (the rest of the ‘To Do’ list went out the window *g*). I think you are absolutely right in saying it isn’t an anti-slash story in its essence or intent. The emotional intensity of what happened on the mountain is respected, the love that still exists between Bodie and Doyle, including a very physical longing, particularly on Bodie’s part, is acknowledged. But I think the author starts with an argument that she wants to make that rather overrides the slash relationship, and her failure to completely integrate both facets is what readers, particularly ‘happy endings’ readers, complain of and which causes them to dump the whole thing into the anti-slash bin.
Hypothesis: The author’s argument is primarily against the religion that is shown in the original ‘Wicker Man’ movie. It’s a hedonistic fertility cult, a relatively recent one manufactured by Lord Summerisle’s grandfather. And there's no doubt that Summerisle is the head of it, in a hierarchical and phallic sense, and the villagers are shown as his superstitious and tradition-bound followers. Pamela Rose's story works within that set-up, as we've already discussed – but 'Apples for the Lady' seeks to overturn that concept by uncovering Summerisle for a posturing fool, and by contrasting his usurped power with the more 'real' authority of the Goddess and her priestesses, the women from Cowley's family. The chief of these, Margaret or 'Maggie' Aleister(1), in fact makes a point of contrasting her religion “passing through mother and daughter, in an unbroken line,” with Summerisle’s “some jumped-up minor god, probably stolen from those thrice cursed Harper bards.”
The trouble is that there are inconsistencies in the logic throughout that fog the mind – a bit like the drugs the Lads are given.
More anon.
(1)Aunt Maggie’s surname seems to be a reference to Aleister Crowley in its slightly unusual spelling. Odd then that T. D. Murphy chose it as the family name for Cowley’s female relatives, as I think the intended conflict in the story is between the Crowley-esque manufactured religious practices of Summerisle and the trad style paganism of the women.