Reading Room IX - Fusion Stories - Poison Apples by Pamela Rose

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Title: Poison Apples Author: Pamela Rose Pairing: B/D Link to story: Poison Apples Link to fusion story: The Wicker Man

I managed to watch The Wickerman film last night, and was amused to see that it was that Edward Woodward, playing what can best be described as another pesky policeman... *g*

Poison Apples is based around the Robin Hardy film The Wicker Man, though now that I've seen the film as well as read the story I wouldn't say that it was properly a fusion story at all - though it's not quite a "cross-over" either (so maybe this is a transition-review, between our last "Fusion" theme, and the next "Crossover" theme... *g*). Poison Apples is actually set some years after the original film - a young man has disappeared on Summerisle, and whilst Doyle is recovering from a burst appendix, Bodie is sent alone to investigate. The next thing Doyle knows is that Bodie has resigned, and Cowley has forbidden him to follow - he's sure that Bodie will be "back in his own sweet time... and he'll wish he'd taken the long way round." Doyle, of course, follows anyway...

The story is rather divided into parts. In the first part, the lads are on the job together and Doyle is ill - although he thinks it's simply stomach flu, he collapses at the end of the case and is rushed to hospital, where it turns out that his appendix has burst. Throughout he's peevish and cross with Bodie, who has recognised he's not well and been concerned about him. Finally Doyle is in one "foul mood" too many, and Bodie's apparent fussing is one fuss too many - especially when Doyle snaps back "...well sometimes you act more like a bloody sweetheart!" (which of course makes them both feel uncomfortable, but also realise what they really want.. *g*)

Bodie decides to get away for a while by accepting a job Cowley asked him to do as something of a personal investigation - looking into the disappearance of a 20 year old anthropology student on Summerisle, an island off the west coast of Scotland where the Gulf Stream makes it possible to grow palms trees and apples, and the islanders live in a private paradise, run by the Lord of Summerisle. He takes a room at The Green Man, managing to charm most of the strange islanders, including the famous Willow, the landlord's daughter.

He is taken to see Lord Summerisle, whose permission he needs to stay at the inn, where he also meets schoolteacher Miss Rose, and is invited to dinner. All proceeds amicably and he returns to the inn where he is fed hot cider (the American kind, I presume, as opposed to cider cider) before bed and retires to take a bath, daydreaming about Doyle - until Willow comes to visit and things progress. When he next wakes, he finds that an entire week has passed, and although things are confusing what he does remember is that Ray didn't want him - but that Willow, and Summerisle do...

Meanwhile, in CI5, Cowley receives Bodie's resignation and is furious - largely at Doyle. Doyle is determined to track Bodie down, and heads for Summerisle, only to find him far more easily than he thinks - and to find him cheerful and determined to stay, if also appearing somewhat dazed. Unable to convince him to leave, Doyle goes in turn to see Lord Summerisle and Rose. Summerisle immediately falls for his pagan-type charms and Doyle is invited to stay the night at the manor. Although wary, he doesn't manage to avoid the drug that Summerisle manages to feed him...

...and this is where it all starts to fall down for me a bit. Up until now I thought the author had done a decent job of building up the tension, especially because I knew the original story was often classified as "horror", full of menace, and so I was waiting for the Pros-fic equivalent. Once I'd watched the film I was even more disappointed that this story didn't quite live up to it - almost as if the author wanted to use the creepy setting, but didn't really have the wherewithal to do anything with it. For instance, she manages to get some creepy sex/rape-of-Bodie scenes into the story, and he's affected by it, but it all seems to go away once the lads (naturally) get together.

What happens next is that Doyle is allowed to leave the castle, even though he's had a confrontation with Summerisle and knows that there's something bad going on. He easily convinces Bodie to go with him "on stakeout", evading Willow without too much difficulty at the same time. He takes Bodie up into the mountains to give him time for the drugs he's obviously been fed to leave his system, realises that he's fallen in love with him as Bodie cries under a waterfall. His plan works, the drugs clear, they confess all to each other, and consummate their new love. The villagers of course find them the morning after, and they are recaptured and drugged - but while Doyle lies helpless and lets himself be drugged again, Bodie is able to escape and rescue him. They swim out to where the villagers have stupidly left the only motorboat the island has, and look back at the island as they're about to leave to realise that the anthropology student they'd assumed had been murdered, hadn't yet been killed after all - but was now being burned alive in the Wicker Man. And that's that.

So... the lads go to an island of evil murderers, manage to outwit them and escape, realising their true love at the same time, though there's (actually a rather Pros-ep-like) not an entirely happy ending. The first time I read the story, I thought it was okay, and it's a perfectly readable story, but having watched the original film (beware the 2006 American re-make) I'm rather disappointed this time. There's actually a lot of potential for good Pros-y cross-over: in the film the "baddies" are ambiguously bad - why shouldn't they celebrate a different religion that encourages happiness rather than misery? - and they're smart, a good match for CI5 rather than the ordinary police. I thought the story really started promisingly, taking advantage of this, but then fell somewhat into fanfic-cliches.

I wasn't entirely happy with the characterisation either. Doyle in particular is a wee bit pathetic in this story, compared to Bodie. He can't manage to make a fire, even with his lighter and Bodie has to help him. Although they're both captured, it's Bodie who manages to escape and rescues a terrified Doyle. Doyle doesn't like heights, and he's a weak swimmer - so much so that Bodie has to help him swim out to the boat (although when Bodie then gets cramp, Doyle "somehow" manages to heroically save him and get them both to the boat). It all bothers me a bit, to be honest - in the eps Doyle is handy enough with a lighter that he can use it with his hands tied behind his back (Ojuka Situation) but in the fic he can't set fire to a few twigs; he can chase Duffy up and down scaffolding around around rooftops (Runner), and run and jump all around old manor house rooftops and factories (Blind Run) but in the fic he's scared of heights; and he can work on an operation involving scuba diving to a boat through the sea (Kickback), but in the fic he's a weak swimmer? Even when they're having sex for the first time, Doyle's "legs parted instinctively to encourage exploration" (really? I'm not sure that'd help so much with a bloke that it'd be "instinctive") and he "senses" that "Bodie was more familiar with this than he, was grateful for the patience." At one point, later in the story, "Doyle's eyes filled with sudden tears" because Bodie says that without Doyle he'd have nothing. After what seems like a relatively Doyle-like start - his determination to find Bodie, his astute realisation of what's going on when he gets to the island, and his initial awareness and avoidance of Summerisle's drugs - he suddenly turns into the plucky-but-ultimately-emotional-and-somewhat-fragile heroine of a Mills and books. There's a point where Bodie's rather tear-y and emotional too, but that's largely put down to the drugs he's been given.

I can see where someone might want to write a sequel, too - it feels a bit unfinished to me, and I'm someone who rather likes ambiguous endings. There was a sequel written, and then a sequel to that, though a note at The Hatstand says: Antidote to Apples" by Kris Brown is the third in the sequence begun in "Poison Apples" by Pamela Rose (in Proslib and on the net), and is a direct sequel to "Apples for the Lady" by T. D. Murphy in In the Public Interest 3, which some people consider to be anti-slash. Kris Brown's story is said to "fix" the changes made to the original slash relationship set up in Pam Rose's story, hence the title "Antidote to Apples".
I have a strange feeling that I've read both those stories, and I think I have ItPIiii at home, but I don't remember them at all, and if anyone has a copy of Kris Brown's story I'd really like to borrow/beg/steal it. Has anyone else read them? Was the first sequel "anti-slash", do you think? Did it clear up any of the other unfinished business in the story, or did it simply "fix" our lads?

I've rambled on forever, and I know I've left out loads that I was going to comment on - but what did you think of the story? *g* Have you seen the film? Do you think they "fused" or "crossed over" effectively? Were you happy with the end of the story? The characterisation? The hot cider? *g* Is it a fic you'll remember, do you think?

Comments

[murphybabe]

Oddly, again I read this one a couple of weeks before it made it to this list. I'd read it last year as well, and it was only when I was a few pages in that I thought, "Oh, it's this one!" and dithered about carrying on, because quite honestly... it's not really my cup of tea.

I have heard of the film but was determined not to watch it (I never watch anything labelled 'horror'), but I knew the premise. On that level, the fic worked well enough. Again, it was the characterisations that gave me issues. I agree with everything you've mentioned - but most of all the tears! Perhaps I need to learn to separate lads-from-eps and lads-from-fic. I dunno, though, because there are some stories where one of them (usually Doyle) cries, and it's okay for me - and if I count things like Klansmen, that doesn't bother me at all. Hmmm, perhaps it is the general uselessness of Doyle in this one.

I liked Lord Summerisle - he was nicely menacing. I enjoyed the writing. I was prepared to suspend disbelief about special apples (which I thought prefered a coolish climate) and warm islands, because, y'know, Gulf Stream - okay. American cider... okay. But it has to come back to characterisation and a bit of a lack of banter, for me.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Oh, the film isn't a "horror" film in the way we mean now at all actually - not even close. I didn't see any reason to wince or flinch at all, and I really dislike horror - this is something else entirely! I gather that the film-makers themselves objected to it being called horror, and for good reason - it's a very old-fashioned definition of it, if it's at all valid!

Perhaps I need to learn to separate lads-from-eps and lads-from-fic
But...but how?! Surely if they're not the lads-from-eps, then they're not Pros to start with, so you might just as well read any old m/m fiction? The whole reason I like our lads is that they're competent and tough - physically and mentally - but also human, and thoughtful of other people (in general). If they went around weeping all over the place on screen then I'd think very differently about them... I know that there are at least tears in Doyle's eyes, in both Klansmen and Involvement, but that's because people he cares about are dying painful deaths - or dead. I just don't think he'd get all tear-y (never mind weeping or sobbing, which so many fics have him doing!) about Bodie saying something nice about him - that's not where I see his breakpoint-of-tears! I can go with Bodie crying under the waterfall because of the drugs mind you - I could live with Doyle crying for a similar reason, but not as normal behaviour, you know?

Hmmn - I didn't think about that, that there wasn't much banter, but you're right the lads were pretty serious... I'm not actually sure they go in for lots of "banter" exactly in the eps, but they've always got a sort of humorous quirk about them, a bit of black humour if nothing else, and there's not much of that in this story, you're right...

It's not of my sure-to-reread list, though it is perfectly readable - it's just... not quite enough my lads, for me either...

[murphybabe]

Hello again! I'm not quite sure why I thought it was horror, then. My mistake. I still don't think i'll watch it though - perhaps this has spoilt it for me a bit.

Oooh, oooh, separating fic from eps - I didn't explain myself very well. In the eps, there is no explicit relationship, so many of the bits I enjoy come from fic. Important point, though - to me, it has to be the lads as I can see them in the eps, extrapolated (is that the right word?) so that they behave 'correctly' (my interpretation) in fic. And I've always said I have a bit of an issue with AUs, for example, because I find them harder to associate with CI5 B&D. I think I'm having the same issue with fusion stories and it may quite possibly happen with cross-overs.

I totally agree about them being tough and competent etc. and human - and at the same time I like when they show the black humour or the callousness - these are tough blokes and they have seen some awful things. I think there is a toughening up that goes on if you have a job like that.

Having said all this, I think I am agreeing with you... *g*

[constant-muse.livejournal.com]

The Wicker Man is a marvellous film and I'm glad that the purposes of this review persuaded you to watch it. hee! for the Edward Woodward 'cross-over'.
This 'fusion' sounds like an excellent idea. I haven't read the fic, I have to admit.

in the film the "baddies" are ambiguously bad - why shouldn't they celebrate a different religion that encourages happiness rather than misery?good point. My recollection is that the judgement is from the perpective of Edward Woodward's character, he is a very strait-laced Christian who cannot or will not tolerate their practices. So the liberal, irreligious Bodie and Doyle would lack the same dynamic, I imagine. Why would Bodie put up any resistance to Willow?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

See, isn't that just Pros, broadening our world? *g*

I do this this fusion story could have been done much more successfully - it started out so promisingly, then lost it halfway...

My recollection is that the judgement is from the perpective of Edward Woodward's character
Yes, it totally was - though I didn't actually feel much sympathy for him at all, because he was so totally, unreasonably Christian himself... Pam Rose actually touched on the lads objecting to the idea of a Lord "owning" the island's population, and that could have been a really interesting dynamic and motivation for them, but again she just didn't quite go there... Bodie didn't put up any resistance to Willow at all, which was totally in character, and I quite liked that Doyle didn't trust Willow just because Bodie wanted her enough to stay - but even that part of the story seemed to trickle into nowhere... so many loose ends, I thought - or perhaps promising beginnings...

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Argh, so much to say, and I am three Reading Rooms behind, so I shall start here and work back.

Your last question is the one that hit me. Because I have read this before, and I had totally forgotten the final moment. And, to me, that final bit is the moment where she successfully hits the horror of the finale of the film of The Wicker Man. So how on earth did it fall from my head so easily?

I came to this one early on in my Pros plunge. I was not a fan of AUs nor of crossovers. But I know The Wicker Man very, very well. It was very much a rite of passage in my circles of friends to watch it and discover what all the fuss was about. And, having found out, we in turn always said 'you'll have to watch it yourself' to others. I remember watching the faces of friends as they watched it for the first time, and they really didn't know what was coming. And I do think the ending of Poison Apples manages to echo the shock brilliantly.

I think my reaction on re-reading Poison Apples was very similar to my reaction the first time. Both times, I found it very, very hard to get into. The scene where Cowley briefs Bodie is full of very non-British speech and ideas - "majors" at university (and I'm not sure that UK university ideas of anthropology are the same as US), undergraduates who have lined up fellowships as soon as they graduate and did theses "last spring", talk of physicians and vacationing (doctors and going on holiday), all the sort of stuff that, if you're interested and involved, you can merrily ignore, but if you're getting bogged down, they really stand out. Both times, I got far enough to think that I should continue: the first time because all of Pros was new to me and I wanted to see how this was going to work out - and at least I knew what The Wicker Man was about, unlike the source material for 90% of the crossovers and fusions; and the second time because of the Reading Room. And both times, as soon as Lord Summerisle gets involved, I started to get much, much more interested. Pam Rose is wildly erratic with the lads' dialogue (some is great, though - in the same briefing scene, I loved the "I didn't require a taste test" "Just digesting the facts, sir" exchange - although now I look at it in isolation, it's more Bond film-like, really), but she got Summerisle perfectly. She managed to find separate pieces of story and plot for both lads, too. I thought it would simply be a matter of Doyle turning up and trying to rescue a reluctant Bodie, but instead Doyle finds he is also in demand, if for slightly different reasons.

I enjoyed the sex scenes (but when did I not?) and I didn't notice the "instinctive" thing (although I did wonder at Willow straddling the bathtub. What? Ow). I enjoyed Bodie thinking "what am I doing here?" and Doyle thinking "what does Summerisle want?", but while they were separate, I found it all a bit slow. Once they are on the run together, I was much more involved, somehow.

I've read other Pamela Rose stories, and I tend to find the same: the story is involved enough for me to enjoy that, as a story, and to forget that this is supposed to be Bodie and Doyle of the Professionals here. I am in the minority who just don't 'get' Professional Dreamer, and I enjoy Arabian Nights right up until any moment when I am reminded that this is supposed to be Bodie the cool ex-merc and Doyle the hard-nosed ex-copper. This one is a CI5 one, and I still get jolted when I realise this is supposed to be the Bodie and Doyle I imagine.

On the matter of fusion/crossover and the Wicker Man particularly, I think I need another comment (sorry!)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

And I do think the ending of Poison Apples manages to echo the shock brilliantly.
Yes, I agree - that bit really worked, and I do like a good, not-riding-off-into-the-sunset ending.

and I'm not sure that UK university ideas of anthropology are the same as US
They're not, but in this case she got it right - Campbell was an anthropologist (in the US they'd specify "socio-cultural to distinguish it from the other four fields - though to be fair I'm not sure how dominant the four fields "together" were in early 1980s US, so it might have been the same there, then).

I do agree about all the Americanisms, but I decided to concentrate on other things this time - I'm generally being smacked about for having mentioned them at all! *g*

Pam Rose is wildly erratic with the lads' dialogue (some is great, though - in the same briefing scene, I loved the "I didn't require a taste test" "Just digesting the facts, sir" exchange
Yes, I agree about that too - sometimes her Americanisms stand out more as a result too. Mind you, she can go the other way as well - I really can't see Bodie (or anyone under 80 or so) describing a pub as "jolly" - at least not with a straight face... *g* And he does it twice! And is it in this fic that he describes a girl as a "git", too?

Once they are on the run together, I was much more involved, somehow.
Oddly enough I didn't mind them being apart at the start of this one - they were both thinking of the other enough that it worked for me...

I tend to find the same: the story is involved enough for me to enjoy that, as a story, and to forget that this is supposed to be Bodie and Doyle of the Professionals here
If I "forget" that the characters of a story are Bodie and Doyle, then I don't see any point in continuing to read - so I don't. *g* I'm reading Pros very specifically to read about the lads I see in the eps, and there's very few stories where I've lost their characterisation altogether, and still been able to keep reading. It doesn't have to be overt characterisation (I really don't want to hear all about their green and blue eyes and so on *g*) but they have to have a spark that makes them my lads... For me, although there's mischaracterisation in Professional Dreamer (well, not so much mis- because it's not supposed to be them to start with *g*) and Arabian Nights, there's enough of them there to keep me interested in Bodie and Doyle. I couldn't say the same of... oh, something like Unfinished Melody by Jane, for example. I always wish Pam Rose had had a good Brit-check, though! *g*

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

And is it in this fic that he describes a girl as a "git", too?

Yes, or rather Sorrell does. "Don't worry, that git Willow doesn't appeal to me either". Which reminds me of the conversation we had when you were over, about that particular word, and how it seems to have become more fashionable in Prosfic, except people don't seem to know quite how to manage all its shades of meaning. So apart from a bit of overuse there's a fair few sentences out there that just grate, because the context suggests the intended meaning was something other than the words - **** git, or git on its own - would convey to a British person.

.

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

Fusion or crossover? Well, there's huge use of - and extrapolation from - the film. The volcanic soil as ideal orchard soil sounds like rubbish, but that's actually the explanation in the film. The business about umbilical cords mentioned in the diary is in the film (Howie encounters this) - but the speculation about the interchangeability of birth and death isn't, and I liked these little extensions. There's the addition of a dirty handmark to the wall in Summerisle's house, too: more of the same augmenting of a basic idea. And some of the most infamous lines from the film are absent ("it's much too dangerous with your clothes on"), so she's avoided the cheap tricks, so to speak, and gone for something a bit more layered.

I thought some of the layering went too far. To describe a photo of Sergeant Howie in terms of saints and martyrs is a bit clumsy - it wasn't necessary for people who had seen the film; and I'm not sure how it would work as foreshadowing for people who hadn't seen the film. And there's something about "in another century, Doyle would have been burned as a witch" which struck the same note for me: where was this going? On the other hand, I liked, "Every apple he ate tasted of Neil Howie".

I don't know whether it's a fusion or a crossover in the end. I think if it had been a fusion, I might have expected more of the nonsense with the hobby horse and the rest scurrying down little back streets. In fact, I was waiting for that all the way through. Overall, I think it started off slowly, I enjoyed it much more in the final third, and I really did like the final lines, which is where I think it really fused with the original: the details are different, but the shock is the same.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Well, by our original definition of fusion vs cross-over stories, this is more of a cross-over. A fusion story puts our lads in the place of actual characters in the book (though it might then skew the story somewhat to take account of different personalities etc), whereas a cross-over adds them to the story. Before I actually saw the film, I thought this was the former (and so did the person who reminded me about it, clearly!), but it's really not.

On the other hand, I liked, "Every apple he ate tasted of Neil Howie"
Yes, that was nice!

Alot of the rest of it was almost very cool - I'd look forward to seeing where something was going, and then be sorry not to find out (as with the "in another century Doyle would have be burned as a witch" - but then he didn't really do anything to justify that, especially when he had Bodie to rescue him from things... *g*) I'd really have liked to see the lads dealing with the hobby horse chase, and again I expected (even before the film) that they'd be engaged alot more with the rest of the villagers, and the wicker man himself, in fact...

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

The volcanic soil as ideal orchard soil sounds like rubbish

Actually, with the proviso that active volcanoes are not good to live near, given enough time volcanic material creates fertile soil for agriculture, e.g. in the North Island of NZ.

[milomaus.livejournal.com]

Oh, I´ll definetly will remember this fic.
First I don´t like horror movies, but the stuff I watched on YT wasn´t really that scary....so, is it a horror movie at all?
I only watched parts of the version from 1973, and one scene with Nicholas Cage from ??, whenever and then I was quite relieved to find out that the story wasn´t a fusion with the movie at all.
Second, I got quite bored with the story when Bodie was on Summerisle. Like so bored I almost quit to read sth else.
That happens very seldom to me. But then I talked with friends about it and felt compelled to read on. *g* Mostly to be able to join the discussion here.
Somehow I was glad I read on, because it really pulled me in again, I was fascinated and I wanted to know the conclusion. But the more I think about it, the more flaws I find.
It´s a very "islandish" sort of story: Very close to the water, meaning the crying stuff. I very much liked the way Doyle got Bodie out of Willows claws, very in character, I thought. But the scenes in the mountains are just - well - nah...*shakes head* *and very much agrees with your opinion*
I liked the reason why they´re captured again though, and the resolution how they got out of the mess, but that was just all to the story, the things about Bodies rape and the way it was dismissed still rankle.
Third, I really thought the twist at the end, that the islanders still have somebody to burn with the Wicker Man, and the way the Lads realize who it is was very surprising!

I didn´t read it again, though there might have been more to it tha I missed until I do. I´m not sure if I´ll ever read it a second time. It´s not a scary story, it´s a new viewpoint and it is quite thrilling, but then there are sooooo many fantastic stories out there......
I think I´ll remember it as a very conflicting story.

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

so, is it a horror movie at all?
Oh, I think it is, but if you only watched pieces of it, you probably missed the big twist that sends it unequivocally into horror territory. It's all at the end: first there's the moment that the main character realises what's going on, and then the film following it through. (Ugh.) It's definitely what happens after the big realisation - the following it through - that makes it irretrievably a horror film for me.

Very close to the water, meaning the crying stuff
What an interesting point. Because, really, the element that ought to come through is fire... Absolutely fascinating that you pick out the water.

As we continue on through this theme, I'm definitely feeling that you get a lot more out of a fusion story if you are familiar with the original source. Slantedlight's explanation of the 'Torn' video made lots of Out Of Faith more... hmm, accessible...? ...obvious perhaps... to me; and I had no idea how closely The Ghost and Raymond Doyle resembled The Ghost and Mrs Muir. I did enjoy thinking "Ah, no Helen Burns, but instead there is..." in The Schoolmaster. But this is the first one I have read where I really know the original properly. I'm really not sure I'd have stuck with it through to the end without that. I would have thought "Why is there this sidetracking with Willow?" and "Who is this schoolteacher woman and why is she showing up with Summerisle?" because I wouldn't have recognised the scenes from the film.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't say it was a "horror movie", at least not the way I define horror movies, though something quite horrific happens at the end. (I don't like horror movies either). The 2006 American version looks like it's been made more into a horror movie, from the pics I've seen of the dvd cover and so on - which is one reason I'll never bother watching it (why do they have to make such human nature out to be "supernatural"? It's far more interesting that it could be part of *human nature*!)

Interesting that you were bored when Bodie was on Summerisle - why do you think that was? Just cos Doyle wasn't there, or something else? I quite liked seeing the island through his eyes, and that kept me interested. I'm glad you kept reading too, though... *g*

The scene in the mountains didn't work for me either - how interesting to think of it as close to water with all their tears as well as the actual water!

the things about Bodies rape and the way it was dismissed still rankle
Yes - it's not that I don't like what's there (even though the crying bit, and making Doyle a bit pathetic annoy me, it wasn't bad enough that I stopped reading), it's that I want more about all the things that were introduced into the story! I wasn't really sure why Doyle was drugged at Summerisle's house and then let go, either - I was expecting him to be assaulted too, but it didn't happen (though there was a bit of an explanation for it, again it didn't quite go far enough, I thought...)

A "conflicting story" isn't a bad term for it at all! I'll perhaps read it again, when I've forgotten it once more, but I'm unlikely to go seeking it out until then... *g*

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

I nearly didn't read it because although I've watched The Wicker Man twice (involuntarily the second time), I really do find it absolute horror and it gives me nightmares, so I was almost scared to read. But I'd expressed hatred of Jane Eyre last week and I like the discussions so I told myself not to be silly.

I agree with all your criticisms of the story as a Pros story. However, as an adventure/fusion story I absolutely loved it. I think the same applied when I read Arabian Nights - I couldn't really see Bodie and Doyle at all but I adored the story.

At the beginning of this I was so worried that it was going to be a major-character-death fic in a horror story that I was skimming and fretting and not really noticing things like Americanisms because I wasn't totally on board anyway. I got really intrigued on the island, perhaps because of the fusion/whatver it is - it helped me to come to terms with the film (I haven't read the book), and perhaps because despite the need for a Brit checker it's really very well written. Later, when they were on the run I was just enjoying the story and not caring about who these guys were. Then, just as I thought we were going to break faith with the film, there was the shock at the end. But because I was identifying with our heroes (though they weren't really heroes here...)the shock was muted and not as bad as the film.

I will definitely re-read it, but thinking of it as, if not original fic, perhaps as Wicker Man fic, with MS and LC cast in the roles of the protagonists. So thanks for an introduction to a story I really (eventually) enjoyed and found memorable - even if it isn't quite Pros.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

What bits do you find "horror" though - surely not until the very end? It is a horrifying ending, I'll grant you! I suppose (as I said up above) it depends on how we each define "a horror film" - for me that means horrifying all the way through, which I didn't think this was. But maybe you did?

(Hah - actually have just been interrupted to glance at a new email notification about Friday 13th - I didn't think about it until now, but how appropriate that I posted my review on Friday 13th! It is quite a Friday 13th film, I'd say... *g*)

I got really intrigued on the island
Yes, I thought she did that really well - I defiitely wanted to find out what was going on, and what was going to happen. But perhaps she did it too well, because she didn't quite follow through enough to satisfy me...

I agree that Pam Rose is one of our lovely solid Pros writers too. I can even live with her Americanisms, because the rest of her writing works, is eminently readable... *g*

though they weren't really heroes here...
Ooh no, good point! They weren't, were they... Maybe that contributed towards me feeling it was "unfinished" in fact - because even when the eps go wrong, and diplomatic immunity or whatever gets the villains off, the lads do succeed as far as they can. In the story they begin to try and find David Campbell (well, Bodie does, Doyle - rather strangely for him - doesn't seem particularly interested, though to be fair I suppose Cowley hadn't given him the assignment/background) but all they do is manage to make themselves victims and then escape, with a bit of their own relationship sandwiched in between. They don't even try to get their man, though we're told that Doyle tries to go off and kill him (again, is that in character for Doyle? Punish him/beat him up yes, but isn't Doyle pretty law-and-order about retribution? Or is that just an impression I've had, perhaps... hmmmn - must think about that!) and Bodie has to stop him. I do think you've hit on something with the "they weren't really heroes here" thought, though!)

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

I found myself in agreement with most of your comments. Some thoughts of my own:
- I didn't notice certain Americanisms too much (hot cider, college majors possibly needing more familiarity with both sides to highlight) although some that I can't think of now (hey - long story read late at night!) did stick out.
- It definitely started to fall apart from me about the time Doyle went to see Summerisle. It never disintegrated completely, the writer is too competent for that, but I pretty much had the same response as the first time - disjointed, ideas chucked in then not consistently followed through. I agree the ending was solid.
- the Dracula/vampire references might have seemed cute at the time but were unnecessary and subtracted from Summerisle's characterisation which was generally good.
- Drugs are baaad... the switch on-switch off influence of the drugs used, for plot purposes - off so they can have sex, on so they're helpless, but only for so long - seemed a bit artificially contrived.
- OK, who in their right mind lights a fire at night, or at any time really, WHILE ON THE RUN, without at least thinking about whether it will attract enemies?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Americanisms (Australianisms etc *g*) do only stick out when they're things we're aware of, I think. The "hot cider" one probably only strikes me as much because I was really surprised to be offered cider in someone's house one day, and to find out that it was actually apple cordial! *g* And although I've had alot of them knocked out of me now, I think we picked up enough from America that also came into everyday use in Australia, when it didn't in the UK, that it seems normal, so... *g*

I'd forgotten about the Dracula/vampire references - I wonder if it was an attempt to build up the horror through horror-like references...?

Ha - yes, good point about the drugs, I didn't think of that!

OK, who in their right mind lights a fire at night, or at any time really, WHILE ON THE RUN
Heeeee! I did think that they seemed pretty cavalier about the whole hiding-out-in-the-mountains part, especially because I'd never imagined the mountains of a Scottish island to be that extensive...

[golden-bastet.livejournal.com]

Not sure where to start. I'm not overly down on this story; it's entertaining enough, although it's not 100% Pros.

I respect Pamela Rose for her Arabian Nights (which, as I've blabbed elsewhere, is actually a fairly close retelling of what are probably Rudolp Valentino's two most famous movies). And I find that with some stories, I get into reading and stop thinking about them critically. (Sometimes. :D) This was one of those.

...That said, I think a lot of the comments hit the nail on the head. Doyle's a bit on the "delicate" side (it didn't help that I'd *just* read a story where he - well, they both were a shade weepy). Not unforgivably so (i.e., I've read worse); bits of what makes him Doyle are in the story. But it's undeniably there.

And I'd say that there's a clear divide between the London and Summerisle sections. The first section starts out much more strongly Pros-ish (although with the way he goes on about the cost of training an agent, I'm not sure that Cowley would let Bodie go off indefinitely). Once Doyle gets to the island, though, it's like two different stories were put together for sake of expediency.

But that ending - that ending! That is the most powerful part of the story, and I like the concept. It *is* a good idea. But when all is said and done, it really has nothing to do with Pros, and it really only works the first time you read it.

Looking back at Arabian Nights - I may like it (it's the first or second story I read in the fandom), but it shares the same trait of not being very Pros-y. I just liked it better because of how familiar I am with the other source.

This isn't the thorough dissection I'd hoped to add to the discussion! (Though it reminded me of a couple of stories that I do have true beefs with.) In the whole universe of less than perfect stories, it is far from being the most egregious. But it could have been more, somehow...

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

No, I'm not totally down on this story either - I hope you don't think I was! I found it perfectly readable - Pam Rose is good like that, I think - I just... wanted a few things she's introduced taken a bit further!

I wish you'd blab more about the Arabian Nights fusion - maybe for a post here...? *g*

The first section starts out much more strongly Pros-ish
Yes - and actually that could have been really interestingly juxtaposed with the section on Summerisle, but she didn't quite go that far either... It could have been more somehow... applies to so much of it! And because Pam Rose is a solid writer, I wanted more, which was my problem...

Hmmn - when you say it really has nothing to do with Pros, how are you meaning that? How would you define "Pros", as such? For me, if their characters are Bodie and Doyle, then it doesn't matter where they're set, it's "Pros" - but I've got to see their characters there, and be confident that they'd react as our lads do in the eps, to various adversities. For instance we never see Bodie (or Doyle) running away from their settled lives with CI5 in the eps - not even at the end of Fall Girl, or Discovered in a Graveyard. In the latter, Bodie calls Doyle back to his life, makes him realise it's all worthwhile, and I like seeing that connection between them in a story - but I can't believe that either of them would really react by running away entirely, unless the author manages to let me know how that's a progression from what they do in the eps rather than a part of their character... if you see what I mean! *g*

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

I have a strange feeling that I've read both those stories, and I think I have ItPIiii at home, but I don't remember them at all, and if anyone has a copy of Kris Brown's story I'd really like to borrow/beg/steal it. Has anyone else read them? Was the first sequel "anti-slash", do you think? Did it clear up any of the other unfinished business in the story, or did it simply "fix" our lads?

I have both ITPI (3) which has "Apples for the Lady", and Compounded Interest which has "Antidote to Apples". I'd have to re-read them both, but a quick glance tells me that 'Apples for the Lady' starts as a direct sequel from Poison Apples. Then we have a mysterious auntie of George Cowley's giving him what-for, and talk of usurping Druid "Harper-bard" religion that has historically pre-empted worshop of "The Lady", and a return to Summerisle to undo the slash. And Kris' story does turn that on its head again.

Oh, and TACS' illustrations are lovely for all of them!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

And I've just discovered Apples for the Lady on my zine shelf, so I'm going to go downstairs and read it over morning coffee! I'll be back... *g*

(Also - *headdesk* over userpics at the moment - I'll choose one, and then lj will choose a completely different one for me instead... although it moves the one I've chosen to the top of my list as usual... This time it moved two at once, of no relation to each other! Oddly, the other one was my bed temptation icon, which shouldn't be right at all, on a Sunday morning!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Ha (the second icon chosen for me then was "Bah Humbug" - hee!) - back to bed turned out to be prophetic, cos Landlady was up before I could even sit down in the sunshine on a grown-up couch, and I had to hoy myself back to bed after all! I so need my own grown up house... *sighs*

But - I read Apples for the Lady, which was... interesting. I didn't entirely get it as an anti-slash story, and for me the slash wasn't actually undone. It's pretty clear at the end that Bodie is still in love with Doyle, and although Doyle has mostly forgotten what happened between them on the island, he does actually start to remember flashes again, which for me suggests that his falling in lust with Moire is just another temporary cover-up of the B/D soul-mateness, and that what will happen next is that the situation will be cleared up again. I'd really like to know more about this "T.D. Murphy" actually, and whether she intended it to be anti-slash. The "Lady" of the title refer to the sacrilige of Lord Summerisle usurping the place of the pagan goddess, and her claiming her "apples"/fertility/power etc back.

(Ha - I just found a June 2002 discussion from when Pen was making the Hatstand lists, about Poison Apples being a cross-over or not!)

Okay, I'm starting to see the building of a myth about these stories... *g* In an October 2002 ProsLib discussion (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pros-Lit/messages/4431?threaded=1&m=e&var=1&tidx=1) of Poison Apples and its sequels, someone who hasn't read the stories for themselves remembers a discussion on a CI5 list, the gist of which was that the sequel tries to fix the slash relationship by making B/D het, and denying that the slash relationship in PA existed. This memory of a discussion is confirmed as being accurate to the sequel by someone who had read the stories - but I notice that she's not a native speaker of English. These descriptions of the sequel are then accepted by two other people. Now - I have rather an issue with this, because the descriptions aren't accurate (which I presume may have been part of the original discussion, not ventured into in the brief 2002 discussion, because only one of the discussants had read the stories at that stage!) In fact both characters are not made het at the end of the sequel - Bodie is very much still pining for Doyle. Nor is the existence of the slash relationship denied, as in fact Doyle starts to remember it just before the end, though he lets the memory go somewhat in the last paragraph - but there's a definite suggestion that the memory of it all hasn't been as forgotten as Bodie thinks it has. So...

[anna060957.livejournal.com]

Oh dear, I’m very late with this.

I failed to read this story before the Reading Room deadline and so deliberately did not read the rec or look at any of the comments until I had finished it. I have not seen The Wicker Man, but feel like I do need to as I really enjoyed this story.

As a Bodie-girl, and contrary to my criticism of The Schoolmaster and the length of time I had to wait for Bodie in that one, I thought I would enjoy having him to myself for much of this story. Strangely, I didn’t! Or maybe I was jealous of Willow!

I utterly loved the following description of Bodie ....

Apprehensive but enthralled, Doyle moved closer, seeing a Bodie he had never known. The damp had moulded the trousers and shirt to the strong body like a second skin, delineating every line and curve of the body like Greek marble. The shoulders, in themselves, should have seemed over-wide and the muscles on the back too sleekly defined to be real, but Doyle, the artist, saw the sweet sweep of line and the despairing but proud carriage of the spine; knowing all must be phantoms of perfection cast by the ever-changing light and background, yet true and faultless in that second of space. Sunshine glistened in the shining cap of dark hair that curled softly on the collar and around the ears. Droplets gleamed on the strong throat, the shirt open for once to reveal a wet expanse of bare, muscled chest. The face seemed more made of stone than the body, only the sun glinting off the long, lower eyelashes giving the figure a spark of life.

I have now read the rec (thank you Slantedlight!) and most of the comments. I did pick up many of the Americanisms which usually throw me out of any story I’m reading, but on this occasion, and probably due to Pamela Rose’s excellent writing, the few I identified did not irritate me as much as usual. I too really liked Arabian Nights, but did not realise the connection/fusion element.

Many of the comments about the failure to be a proper fusion story; Doyle’s rather pathetic attempts at fire lighting, swimming, etc; even the rather abrupt move from being just mates to full on penetrative intercourse; and so on, are relevant and well documented, but despite all that I enjoyed reading this story and could hardly put my Kindle down to go to sleep/work/cook the supper ....

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

No such thing as too late, as far as I'm concerned... *g*

It's a funny thing, isn't it, how some authors can keep us reading despite things like overt Americanisms and mischaracterisation... There must be a kind of scales where a story is weighed and either balances or doesn't... Pam Rose seems to have the knack though - I can read through her "college majors" and even to some extent a Doyle who doesn't know how to light a fire, because she somehow has other things right... What are those other things, though - I'm not quite awake enough right now to try and analyse them - and it's probably a post of its own, really! - but I wonder if they're identifiable at all... Is it an understanding of who the lads are (but then what about the mischaracterisation?) Something to do with being able to write a story in general? (But I still think I'd not be interested if I didn't believe this was B/D...) Erm...?