Reading Room IX - Fusion Stories - Out of Faith by Brenda Antrim

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Well that'll teach me to choose a story to review, sight-unseen, won't it - Out of Faith turned out to be one of those stories that I suspect will evoke quite strong opinions... still, all the more interesting a discussion, I hope!

Title: Out of Faith
Author: Brenda Antrim
Pairing: B/D
Link to story: at the Circuit Archive
Link to "fusion" piece - the lyrics to "Torn" by Natalie Imbruglia are under a cut, below, you can hear it sung here on YouTube.

Well - I don't usually, but I'll start with a summary of the story, all the way to the end. Those who've read it already will have seen that there are warnings above it in the Circuit Archive - which is unusual, as stories there are usually archived without such spoilers on the story page itself (they can be found via separate links on the site for those who want them).

Out of Faith begins with Doyle in trouble, in pain and waiting for Bodie to come and find him - Hurry, Bodie-mate. I know you'll get here.. Bodie is back at CI5, where a bloody box has been delivered - and Doyle is missing. It turns out the lads have been on separate assignments, Doyle has been looking after a new agent, and Bodie chasing up some of his old African colleagues. Doyle and Kendall were ambushed by a group of IRA activists, who managed to overpower them and, when it was discovered they were CI5, took them back to their boss, who wants his revenge for the men Doyle and Kendall managed to kill. Doyle blames himself for having been daydreaming about Bodie - and the sexual relationship that he wants with him, though he's not acted on this for fear of Bodie's reaction. At random, Doyle is chosen as the first victim, but just as a machete is raised to chop off his wrist, he is rescued by an Arab the group had hired for unspecified services - he says that he will take Doyle in return for 10% of his price. This is agreed, and as Doyle is dragged from the room, Kendall takes his place - Liam, smiling the while, stretched out his arm and brought his machete down. He started at the wrist. He ended at the throat.

The Arab, of course, has decided that he will spend his remaining night in England with Doyle as his sexual plaything. With the help of his assistant, Doyle is tied, drugged, branded and repeatedly raped in a variety of ways, sexually tortured with a variety of instruments so that he tells them his name, though nothing else.

Meanwhile, the box containing Kendall's hand has been delivered to CI5 - Bodie is physically sick over it, but they eventually find that it isn't Doyle's hand and that there's still hope he may be alive. Cowley sets his agents to finding both the IRA cell, and hopefully Doyle and Kendall.

The night drags on for Doyle, wondering where Bodie is, why he didn't come - until "a perfect sunrise" can be seen through a tiny window, and he realises that he no longer wants Bodie to come, because he doesn't want to be seen in the state he's been reduced to.

Of course CI5 do find him, Bodie does rescue him and he's taken to hospital, where Bodie sits by his bedside until Doyle wakes up and reaches for him - and sees Bodie flinch away. After everything else, this triggers a heart attack, although he's rescued from this too and is well enough to go home three weeks later. He suffers nightmares where he sees people he failed to protect in the past, who accept him now as one of them - Bodie had rejected him, had failed to protect him.

Bodie is the one who takes him home - sitting by his bedside he'd known that Doyle wanted something Bodie didn't think he had to give. As far as Bodie knew, his heart had dried up a long time ago, and he didn't care to resuscitate it...and Doyle would see right through him. So he'd be truthful... It would be all right... It had to be. Because Bodie didn't have anything else to offer. He does care about Doyle - he wants his old partner back - but when he pushes Doyle to try and get a reaction, Doyle's reaction isn't something he can handle. Doyle kisses him, Bodie knocks him down and tells him that he prefers women, but there's a hint that there's more to it than this - Superimposed... was a nightmare image of blood and bruises. It brought back too many bad memories, too many long-buried impulses. Doyle...must never be touched by it. Never.. Doyle appears to accept Bodie's position, and even laughs - but when Bodie has left he fills a bath with hot water, takes a razor, and slits his wrists.

Bodie finds him the next morning, "at peace". He calls CI5, tells them there's been "an accident", and then stares into his own eyes, reflected in the razor: There was no peace there. Only death.

'Torn' by Natalie Imbruglia
I thought I saw a man brought to life - He was warm - he came around like He was dignified.
He showed me what it was to cry.
Well you couldn't be that man I adored - You don't seem to know - don't seem to care - What your heart is for - No I don't know him anymore

There's nothin' where we used to lie - Conversation has run dry - That's what's going on - Nothing's fine - I'm torn - I'm all out of faith - This is how I feel - I'm cold and I am chained - Lying naked on the floor - Illusion never changed - Into something real - I'm cold and I am shamed and bound - And broken on the floor - And I can see the perfect sky is torn -
You're a little late - I'm already torn.

So I guess the fortune teller's right - I should have seen just what was there - And not some holy light - But you crawled beneath my veins - And now I don't care - I have no luck - I don't miss it all that much - There's just so many things - That I can't touch

There's nothing where he used to lie - My conversation has run dry - That's what is goin' on
Nothin's right - I'm torn - I'm all out of faith - This is how I feel - I'm cold and I am shamed - Lying naked on the floor - Illusion never changed - Into something real - I'm wide awake - And I can see the perfect sky is torn - You're a little late - I'm already torn

A fusion story is where our lads are put in the place of the character in the original story, in this case as the narrator of Torn and its anti-hero, and it's interesting to see how they fit together, the parallels, and how a new story is created from this. We've got:
I'm cold and I am chained - Lying naked on the floor - Doyle, as captive, is literally chained and naked on the floor
Illusion never changed - Into something real - Doyle's faith that Bodie would rescue him don't materialise - or at least
You're a little late - I'm already torn - not until too late, the damage is done. (And perhaps his daydreams that they could have a relationship are never made real?)

What Doyle doesn't know, of course, is that Bodie is trying to find him, and is worrying Cowley in his intense need to do so: ...something dark and a little frightening moving at the back of blue eyes... - does the "man" in Torn try to rescue the singer? Is there a hint of suggestion in You're a little late, as if he did go back for her?

There's another link between the story and the song, when Doyle sees the perfect sky/"a perfect sunrise breaking through the tiny window" and "knew the truth. Bodie wasn't coming." What I tend to think of as a metaphorical perfect sky is torn in the song has been made partially literal in the story. The singer's beautiful world has been destroyed - but what does the "perfect sunrise" symbolise to Doyle - the opposite of its usual effect, that hope really is lost? I find this a bit jarring, somehow - I think we're used to thinking of sunrise as hope - or perhaps that makes the image stronger, in the story?

So I guess the fortune-teller's right... - I'm not sure that this has relevance to the story? Unless the fortune-teller is society in general, telling Doyle that such a relationship could never really work? The rest of this verse rings true to the way Doyle could be feeling though - he shouldn't have let himself believe in something that wasn't really true, in a Bodie who could rescue him from anything, and on realising that he just doesn't care any more - there's no hope left for him, because he doesn't even want Bodie to come any more...

The very end of the song reflects Doyle's end too - I'm wide awake - And I can see the perfect sky is torn - You're a little late - I'm already torn. Stripped of all illusions, it doesn't matter that Bodie still wants to be friends, the damage has been done and Doyle can see reality as it is - something that he doesn't want, and rejects by taking his own life.

So what about the "man" in the song - how is he Bodie? We're told that he can't love Doyle back Because Bodie didn't have anything else to offer, he doesn't care to resuscitate his heart, although we're shown that Doyle's experience has left its mark on Bodie too - He wanted his partner back, not this stranger wearing Doyle's face. But when he tries to force Doyle to action, Doyle kisses him - and Bodie hits him, and rejects him. He claims that Doyle isn't his type, he prefers women, though he also thinks You'd want me to care, and I'm not about to take that risk.

Antrim gives us both sides of the song. Doyle is torn and rejected, but she also fleshes out the man who does that to him - not Sadegh, who tortured him, but Bodie. Bodie has a reason for rejecting Doyle - he doesn't want to care about anyone again. We see him actively thinking about it, and deciding that he "doesn't care to". I don't think there's any such character building of the "man" (is there?) so whilst on the one hand Bodie is the anti-hero character of the song, on the other hand it seems that Antrim perhaps doesn't want us to hate him too much - he's not just cold and unfeeling, he rejects Doyle for a reason, and we're perhaps even led to believe that Bodie is trying to protect Doyle in his own way, from: a nightmare image of blood and bruises. It brought back too many bad memories, too many long-buried impulses. What do we think these are, though, these memories - but more particularly these impulses? Does Bodie have impulses to hurt Doyle too, is that what the memories are about - it could make sense of Doyle...must never be touched by it. Never. Because Doyle couldn't otherwise be touched by Bodie's memories, not unless they turned into "impulses" - and presumably they couldn't just be m/m "impulses", because he knows that Doyle is gay, and so couldn't be "hurt" in any way by that. Is this a reference to "The Game", perhaps, which is part of Bodie's violent past in fanon?

On my first reading of this story I was left thinking Why? Why would this be written, what is it trying to do for the reader? I want to say that's changed on further analysis, but I don't think it really has... It might be a gritty and realistic reaction to something so awful happening (and I'm all for gritty and realistic) but on the other hand there's generally a sense of redemption even in gritty and realistic stories - at least a sense that although there are sometimes failures, people will continue to try, won't let the terrible things beat them. The lads are furious at the end of Takeaway, when the villains get away with what they've been doing through their diplomatic immunity - but we see them the week after, still fighting to make things right. They haven't given up. Out of Faith, on the other hand, seems to be a story about giving up. There's no redemption (even though Doyle finds "peace" in death, he's only dead because of the story), not even for Bodie at the end. If there'd been a sense that his life would change for the better after this, that he might open himself to love in order to save other lives, then it might all have been worth it - but I don't get that impression, it seems that he'll just go on - in which case such terrible things could repeat themselves ad infinitum...

Well, that's what I reckon, anyway... *g* Interesting, it is, interpreting things between song and story - but I wonder if other people have interpreted things differently (especially, perhaps, with the song?)... Following recent traditions - some questions for you! Feel free to choose rather than answer them all, if you'd rather!

1) Do you agree/disagree with the interpretations I've made about song and story?
2) What do you think of Bodie's character - does he match the song? Does it ring true to our ep-Bodie? Can you see him rejecting Doyle like that?
3) Can you see Doyle committing suicide as a result?
4) What do you think Bodie's "impulses" are? What do you think that section refers to?
5) Did you leave the story feeling rather empty as well, or can you see something more in it than I can?
What d'you reckon? *g*

Comments

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

Even in fusion stories, I want to be able to see the men I see Bodie and Doyle to be. I didn't at all in this one. I remember my distaste the first time I read this story. It's still there. Though well written, I found it to be a complete downer, with both Bodie and Doyle as weak men running from what they can't face. It's terrible what's done to Doyle and I suppose Bodie's experiences were almost or as bad, yet, well, too much of what I enjoy about Pros is the fact that Bodie and Doyle do rise above their circumstances. And, as you say, Doyle's death serves no real purpose, other than to make him dead.

I didn't realize at the time that it was a fusion story, but, still, it's not something I could ever enjoy.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yes, I totally agree that I want to see "my" Bodie and Doyle in a story somewhere, and I've been trying to decide how much of them (if anything) I see in Out of Faith. it's difficult in a way, because we don't see much of them before the disaster of Doyle's ambush. I think I can see them though - enough to keep me reading, which I don't if the characterisation is so absolutely bland as to be a non-event for me.

Bodie - is very affected by Doyle's kidnap, he wants to get Doyle back, and he wants revenge on his attackers
- in a flashback, we see that when Bodie is bored he turns to Doyle, and when he can't get hold of him It was going to be a very long night without Doyle beside him. It always was.
- Bodie's there at his bedside in the hospital, and takes him home afterwards, and says he'll see him in the morning.

Doyle - does not like babysitting a new agent rather than working with Bodie on a case (though, to be fair, this isn't really canon except insomuch as they've both complained about "babysitting" - but in a different context.
- wordlessly glares at Bodie to tell him to be careful
- takes his bad temper out on other people
- feels guilty that he'd been daydreaming about Bodie and allowed them to be attacked (guilt = canon, at least!)
- is overpowered and kidnapped (definite canon!)
- is defiant when questioned by the villains
- feels for the victims (Kendall, faceless victims he's not been able to help in the past), suggesting guilt that he couldn't help
- in DiaG we're led to believe he's giving in to it all, inching towards death rather than carry on fighting - is that paralleled here?

But... all those moments of characterisation lead to completely different things in the series - as you say, the lads rise above their circumstances in the end, even to the point that Bodie pulls Doyle back from death in DiaG, and that just doesn't seem to happen in Out of Faith... And maybe that's why I feel quite empty at the end of it, because whilst Antrim convinced me that this could be our lads at first, they ultimately weren't... ooh, she betrayed me, I felt quite torn by it... The illusion of this story wasn't my reality of the lads... *g*

I'm more interested in it, having read through it for this discussion, but my first impression (surely the most important, from a story?) was similar to yours - that I didn't particularly enjoy this story, at the end.

[msmoat.livejournal.com]

Well, you've managed to make a story I dislike into something interesting through your analysis. See, this is the power of story discussion.*g* It still doesn't work for me as a Pros story--I cannot see Bodie or Doyle behaving in this manner, in these circumstances. And I think that's actually the danger and challenge of fusion stories. By placing these characters into the shoes of those characters...how do you stay true to the original? Is there an essence of "Bodie" and "Doyle" that rings true for Pros audience? I believe that is possible. In this case, for me, it didn't work. I think your analysis of the song, and the interpretation through the story is interesting and makes, actually, for a decent story. But as a Pros story, it fails for me. Not because of the bleak ending--I can and do read death stories, etc.--but because, for me, there was nothing of the deep and abiding relationship between Bodie and Doyle here--the strength, actually, that should see them through this. Perhaps if the story had dealt with the strength of the relationship we see on screen--had shown how that could be so completely destroyed... I wasn't convinced that the events in the story would cause that relationship to fail so spectacularly, or that Bodie and Doyle (the men we see on scree) would act or feel in this way. I think I could be convinced of that, but I'd need more than we were given in the story. (And, admittedly, I would hate the entire thing. *g*) At any rate, it felt to me as if the relationship and characters we see on screen were subsumed by the need to tell the song's story. Frankly, it could have been any two men from any TV show, in some ways--the song took over the characters. So...for me, it wasn't a successful fusion, but I'll agree it was an interesting story.*g*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I've got to admit, I was surprised to find that I did see more in this story as I wrote about it than I had when I read it - maybe because I was looking for things to try and explain what the author was doing, because I didn't really "get" it...

The more I think about it, the more I think that there are almost two halves to this story - the first half, as described in my comment above, seems to be about the lads that I pretty much know from the eps, and I think that was why I kept reading. I just can't read stories where I see none of our lads character at all, I'm bored by them. But they were there in a number of places - until Doyle was rescued, and then it all fell apart, because as you say there didn't seem to be anything of their relationship there any more, and no potential that there ever would be. I can actually see that the events of the story might change their relationship desperately, might even make Bodie reject Doyle after seeing him in that position (though I'd want it well explained), but I didn't get enough motivation for that... and even then I'd want the whole situation to be redeemed, I'd want there to be a glimpse of a hint that things would be right again between them, at least in the long run...

Frankly, it could have been any two men from any TV show
I'm interested in this - I totally agree that it could have been after the rescue, I barely glimpsed "my" lads after that, but I was fine with them up until that point. That might even have been what threw me - I'd been expecting better things of our lads! Was there a point where you stopped thinking they were our B/D, or did you never think that they were, from the start? And if you never did even at the start, why not? *g*

The fusion aspect's interesting - again I thought that could have been rescued - she obviously brought in lots of extra-song scenes to make it into a story in the first place, so just as she added a beginning to explain how Doyle ended up "torn" on the floor, she could have carried the ending on a bit... though presumably she was going for the overall despairing feel of the song... i actually like the song alot, but I do see something defiant in it too, there's an anger about it that's quite Doyle-like, raging against the damage that's been done through the song, and come to think of it I don't see that at all in the story... so maybe, for me, that part of the fusion is missing too, sort of the point of the song...

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

Before I start, let me say I hated it. It isn't often a story evokes such a strong negative feeling, perhaps because I usually read blurbs for original fic and warnings for fanfic. But the warnings for this didn't give any indication of what the story was about to do.

I listened to, and was depressed by, the song. I can see the way the fusion works and suppose it's clever. There's some good writing there and perhaps this story in 'lesser' hands would merely be dismissed as 'bad' but here we have to admire some aspects. It's a very powerful piece of writing which I suppose is why it generates such strong feelings! I didn't find the song nearly as powerful and in fact switched off before the end.

I didn't find much of the character of 'my' Bodie or Doyle here. I respect writers' different interpretations, of course, but I think these were 'far out' in terms of what most people who have seen the show would agree about. B and D are far stronger (mentally) than the author portrays them here and I can't see Bodie making that kind of rejection of his partner without at least an attempt to explain, however clumsily. Nor can I see Doyle committing suicide for any reason without a very long lead-up and far more than a single rejection to motivate him. I also disliked and found out of character the implication that Kendall somehow didn't matter either to them or to Cowley.

I am not easily 'squicked' and I have quite a wide comfort zone. I read death fic and strong violence quite often, in both fanfic and original fic - though I do like to know roughly what's coming because sometimes I'm in the mood for dark stories and sometimes I'm not. However, I have issues with stories (again, original or fanfic) which linger lovingly over details of sexually based torture, even when (as in e.g Legend of the Seeker) the outcome is better than it is here. I find it offensive in much the same way as I would find rape-for-titillation offensive, which is not, by the way, to suggest that it should be censored, just that I wish to be able to avoid reading about it. I am happy to read stories that refer to rape and sexual torture in order to reach some other level, e.g. hurt/comfort. I am also happy, or at least prepared to read them if they are based in historical fact and will add to my knowledge of the world or of the human psyche. I am even 'happy' to read tragedy if the purpose is simply to explore, however briefly, the tragedy and its effects on individuals, a group or society at large. I am never happy with any concentration on gratuitous descriptions of torture; it somehow suggests that either the author is 'turned on' by pain or wants to enjoy his/her readers' reactions to it.

I avoid or stop reading original fic where this focus on the details of torture offends me. I avoid fandoms/comms/writers where this kind of writing appears to be prevalent. I was really 'shocked' and felt physically sick when I read this story but was also interested in the discussion that would ensue. The shock was in the way the torture was depicted - graphic description without any real exploration of either Doyle or his torturer. I wasn't shocked by the suicide, just depressed and annoyed that the characterisation was not sufficiently developed to make it 'real'.

So no, not empty; sick and near-angry. I have no idea, like you, why this was written. There are all kinds of possibilities - the author could have had some kind of life experience that made the song very important to her and wanted to use fanfic as a kind of metaphor for her feelings. She could have been responding to too many hurt/comfort fics where recovery from rape/torture seems too easy. I'm sure you'll all come up with other theories.

Interesting. I will never read anything by this author again. I am dying to hear what other people thought! And thanks, byslantedlight for introducing a different 'note' to the discussions! It's good to analyse and set stories we do like in some sort of context.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

It's definitely a graphically violent story, as it says in the warning, and I can see that would turn some people off. (If there'd been more information than that in the warning though, (what was done to who, for instance) then I probably wouldn't have bothered reading it at all, because the story would have been half-told.) I had a feeling that there'd be some comments about its graphic nature in the discussion!

Your point about "rape for titillation" is interesting too - I didn't think that was the case here, I did think that Doyle's experience was supposed to be realistically awful, with a realistic result rather than just for the fun of it. I do think there's more to "rape for titillation" than it sometimes appears too - studies have shown that rape is a common female fantasy that has absolutely nothing to do with real rape, but is rather about being free to enjoy things that society has otherwise condemned (though I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is a less common fantasy now than it used to be though, as women are not as strongly condemned for enjoying sex these days - speaking very generally). And of course "turned on by pain" is surely part of the definition of bdsm, so there can be a point to that too. But... you've got to be able to see the point of it to appreciate it on any level, and I don't think we could, here! (I've read worse, from that perspective, mind...)

So... interesting - we're both wondering why it was written, but I think from different perspectives! Which has happened once or twice, with us... *g* I do wonder about your suggestion that she was responding to the sex-makes-rape-all-better fics that are out there, and had perhaps decided that Torn was a more realistic response to such emotional/sexual pain - and to her the logical conclusion was that Doyle would kill himself, because who could cope with such an experience, certainly and remain in CI5 too...

Hmmn, it was archived in December 2003 - I wonder what else was going on in Pros fic at the time she wrote it, and what the response was at the time... and where it was originally written for, come to that. I must see if I can find out more...

I actually like the song alot, mind you, and I suspect that helps me to think about it all with more sympathy, too!

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think we frequently come at stories from different angles but that's what makes for interesting discussion. *g*

I didn't see this as rape-for-titillation - more 'grossness and pain'-for-titillation. Rape is commonly held to be about power and while the Arab obviously did enjoy 'breaking' his 'toys' there was very little mention of how that affected either party or of how severe physical brutalisation was meant to achieve the desired effect. Nor was there any real explanation of why he wanted to cause pain, as opposed to merely exerting power. We were simply given a long and excruciatingly detailed account of what he did.

I don't think rape-for-titillation corresponds with rape fantasies and nor do I think either scenario applies here. Rape-for-titillation plays on the desires of the rapist; some studies suggest it can potentially form a harmless release for would-be rapists and prevent actual rape which is why I would hesitate to censor it despite its apparent approval of crime. Rape fantasy ties into the fantasies of the woman (or man) being raped and concerns itself with the giving up of control in such a situation. As the 'victim' is not the criminal in rape, there is no overt approval of criminal acts. The rapist, or their acts, might be redeemed by the victim's forgiveness or reactions but there is usually an acknowledgement that the criminal act of rape has taken place. Most fantasies of this kind are written in fantasy worlds or historical ones where our current rape laws do not apply, precisely so that such redemption can take place. This story certainly wasn't a rape fantasy and if it was intended as rape-for-titillation I wonder what audience the author intended it for and why the torturer's feelings were not adequately addressed.

Similarly, I don't think that anything about BDSM applies here. The core of BDSM is that it is consensual. The pain-as-titillation here is far from consensual and we are treated to detailed and graphically sexual descriptions of it that I personally find unacceptable. I could cope with them if there was any attempt to explore and understand either the torturer's motivations in any depth, or Doyle's reactions. For me, these aspects are missing or so brief as to be meaningless.

Anyone working in an organisation such as CI5 would be aware of the possibility of torture and of different kinds. They would be able, I think, to cope better than Doyle did here with the after-effects, and besides, would have medical and psychiatric help available. Suicide seems so unlikely, somehow; if it was to happen it would surely be months or even years later. The whole premise of the story seems to be: extreme brutalisation (which we will linger over in detail because it's gory and shocking) leads straight to such low self esteem that suicide is inevitable without the heroic intervention of a partner who should not, themselves, have any issues that might cause them to hesitate to intervene.

I have read other stories in Pros that focus on pain but none that I can remember that tie that non-consensual pain (delivered by a third party) directly to sexual feelings. I have read a number of original stories that do and I dislike them too. I'm not sure what warnings could be given that would prepare the reader for this kind of writing. I just know I wish there were some!

[msmoat.livejournal.com]

They would be able, I think, to cope better than Doyle did here with the after-effects, and besides, would have medical and psychiatric help available.

Which we actually see in canon with Quinn. There is a lot about the story that doesn't make logical sense to me within the CI5 universe.

And I agree with you about the lingering over the torture, which is something that appears in many stories, and is something I find disturbing. There may be structural reasons to linger, but I don't see them here. If it was to convince us that Doyle had gone through horrors that no one would survive, okay...but why was no help made available to him? If the graphic lingering was meant to make the reader despair, and thus enter into Doyle's mind, well, it didn't work that way at all for me.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Most fantasies of this kind are written in fantasy worlds or historical ones
I was thinking more along the lines of Nancy Friday's My Secret Garden (http://www.amazon.com/My-Secret-Garden-Womens-Fantasies/dp/0671019872), and the sexual fantasies there described, which have very little to do with rape in the way you're defining it here. I'm not saying that the scene in Out of Faith has anything in common with those fantasies either - but that was what I meant by "rape-for-titillation".

I suppose the question is whether the scene here is supposed to be titillating (or whether it is for some people). As you say, by strict definition this isn't bdsm - what I meant was that as a fantasy it might appeal in the same way. The ways of the world are strange, Horatio, especially when it comes to sex... *g*

It's interesting to wonder why the torture scene was made sexual though - perhaps because those tend to be more "hidden" wounds, and someone can look unscathed when dressed normally, and seem to have "recovered" enough for the rest of the story to take place? I have to admit that I blinked at the "three week" timescale for Doyle's release from hospital, though I suppose it's not completely impossible and would depend on many things... I wonder if he'd been tortured with knives, further/worse branding/other non-sexual methods, would the story have been written to the same plot - Bodie could still be frightened for his mate, horrified at what had happened to him, and yet reject a sexual pass made at him afterwards. Was the torture made sexual simply because it was a slash story?

I thought Sadegh's motivation was pretty simple - he was supposed to be a villain, with perversions that made him even worse, in the same way that Liam's cold-blooded hacking at Kendall made him worse than the "usual" type of villain. So perhaps the author wanted us to be aware of the extremity of violence and it's consequences in real life - which brings us back to it possibly being a response to the kiss-the-rape-victim-better genre of fic...

would be aware of the possibility of torture and of different kinds. They would be able, I think, to cope better than Doyle did here with the after-effects, and besides, would have medical and psychiatric help available. Suicide seems so unlikely
I don't know that I agree with that... there's a big difference between knowing that things might happen in theory, and having them actually happen to you. I think there's also a hint here that Doyle's suicide was more than just about Bodie's rejection, and the torture - suggestions that the death etc he's seen over the years have always played on his mind, and that this is the tipping point as much as anything... How much psychiatry could have helped just three weeks after the event is debatable too... perhaps that 's part of the problem - this needed to be a much longer story in order to satisfy all the points of reality that are dropped in. It's as if we were shown all the nightmares that can be reality, but led to believe that there's nothing around that can help...

Again, the warnings thing - there were! It said graphic violence and death at the top of the story (more warning than I usually like, to be honest). We get into the debate here of how specific warnings should be - so much so that the plot is described? That becomes a synopsis...

[unoriginal-liz.livejournal.com]

Wow - this is starting fusion-fic-discussion with a bang (and a beating, and a hacking-off-of-body-parts!) :)

Weirdly I didn't hate this story. And, maybe just as weirdly, I think that's where this fic failed for me! I mean - I really SHOULD hate this fic. I don't tend to read character death, and I'm squeamish, so the thought of a story that's all graphic hurt with no comfort at the end to balance it out...I should really dislike this story. And I don't.

I guess part of it is that Bodie and Doyle aren't especially there, for me. Like, I think her Bodie and Doyle are...serviceable. You made a list of traits that this writers' Bodie and Doyle have that jibe with how you see Bodie and Doyle, and I can see that too. But her Bodie and Doyle aren't exactly leaping off the screen with white-hot intensity for me either. You know those little twists of characterisation that some writers have that make Bodie and Doyle real for you? I know that's a personal thing - but it's just not here for me. And there's nothing I can especially point to and say, "THIS is not-Doyle/not-Bodie!" but it's like her characters are Doyle and Bodie in general...but not in specific.

And that's a good thing and a bad thing for me. It's bad because I should be GUTTED by the end of this story. I don't make a habit of reading character-death or they-don't-get-together fics because if they're done right, they should convince me. I wouldn't WANT to be convinced of the 'rightness' of a Doyle who is so traumatised that he takes his own life at the end of the story, and a Bodie who is so messed up that he rejects Doyle in his hour of need...but I SHOULD be convinced of it all the same.

...but of course, it's good because I didn't WANT to be gutted and convinced of the unsalvage-ability of Bodie and Doyle's situation! :)

Maybe part of it was that the torture etc. was too much? Or - like the characterisation - not specific enough? I mean, specific to character, not specific as in detailed, because lack of detail would not be one of my complaints about this story! :) Like the beatings, the rape, the rejection...they're all just this big pile on of hurt with no character-specific payoff. Even in terms of 'breaking Doyle down/making him suicidal' 'payoff', it doesn't feel especially like I'm watching the breakdown of this specific character, just the breakdown of a character in general. It made all that gruesome stuff easy to skim, because it could just as easily be happening to a character from any number of other fandoms.

I did find the opening really compelling, though - the bit with the hand! It was horrible - but really well done, I thought - because it was so CI5 specific - the gross bloody box, the newspaper soaked with blood, the technicians, who were going to have to fingerprint it...

THAT image is going to stay with me! :) Horrifying, in a creepy, fascinating way. I felt really 'present' for that bit!

I never ever would have guessed this was a fusion based on 'Torn' - but music is very specific to the listener, so... Bodie didn't especially match the song guy for me (very literal, me - I just keep thinking of the dude in the Natalie Imbruglia music video and trying to superimpose Bodie into the video instead!).

Your discussion of the story was really interesting - I didn't think I'd have anything to contribute in comments, but your analysis really got me thinking!

[solosundance.livejournal.com]

I did find the opening really compelling, though - the bit with the hand! It was horrible - but really well done, I thought - because it was so CI5 specific - the gross bloody box, the newspaper soaked with blood, the technicians, who were going to have to fingerprint it...

Agreed! It was a very strong opening. And I think the killing of Kendall was the most horrific part of the story for me (and therefore, perhaps, "strong" also). First off, obv, because he died. And second because it was largely left to our imaginations *shudders*

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

You know those little twists of characterisation that some writers have that make Bodie and Doyle real for you?
I would have said that I was really sensitive to that - I'm afraid there's alot of fic that I just stop reading because it seems bland, could-be-any-two-men, but this story didn't have that at all for me. I did see my Bodie and Doyle in the initial set up of what was going on. Yes, they could have been drawn in more detail, but there were enough nuances there that I recognised them and could carry on reading without any problems. As you say, that's a personal thing - I swear I'm going to post again Golden Bastet's question from a few weeks ago, that was slightly de-railed to slash/non-slash, because I'd like to hear exactly what people are looking for from Bodie and Doyle, and what makes them them - and it's interesting to see what some people dismiss and some people believe. I do agree that it's not them from about the rescue onwards though - they're lost, suddenly, for me...

Even in terms of 'breaking Doyle down/making him suicidal' 'payoff', it doesn't feel especially like I'm watching the breakdown of this specific character
Yeah, that's a good way to describe it... I thought there was an edge of defiance from Doyle in the torture scene, though I was surprised that he gave his name up so quickly (and then that didn't seem to be used later in the story), and there was an attempt to relate him to his police-days (though I didn't think that quite came off - I'm not sure that someone would be in a psychological place where that's how they'd react, to be honest).

I agree about the opening scene too, it really did build the horror of what was coming up very effectively - in fact maybe it did that too well, because we then subconsciously were expecting the same level of psychological terror throughout...

I might have been lucky with the song in that I've only once seen the "official" video, and I don't remember it particularly well, but I've heard the song hundreds of times and so used my own imagination with it!

And yeay for thinking! I think I've done more of it than I expected to for this story too... *g*

[solosundance.livejournal.com]

Wow, I'm impressed with your analysis! This is the first fusion story I've read and I'm not sure the genre appeals to be honest, or maybe I'm doing it wrong. When I saw that this song was the one being fused I knew it would be hard because I like it and have the original video and my own interpretation of the lyrics and mood very firmly in my head. Starting over and inserting the lads … well, I tried, I did! But a graphically violent, sadistic rape of a character I love (literally all hurt no comfort) fused with Natalie Imbruglia… did not compute. I know there's discussion about whether the song (particularly the original) was about rape, but I don't get that particularly from the lyrics or at all from the video-that-I-can't-get-out-of-my-head which was another problem for me. I think the way you interpreted the author's fusion with the song was very good though. And very generous *g*

On the story… well I'm probably about to repeat some of the very good points made by others. I actually liked parts of it more the more I read it - with the exception of the main focus of the story which to me has no redeeming features. I found the whole thing strongly written - snappy, gritty, pacy - even though our lads were not entirely present. There were flashes, but frustratingly few. I was glad Doyle did show some Doyle-like defiance and can relate to the concept of Bodie being emotionally empty, and the possibility he has dark "impulses" or memories that have screwed with his ability to care for people. I liked the notion that things will go spectacularly pear-shaped if Cowley separates the lads, but not the idea that Cowley never listens to them.

Now I don't have a huge problem per se with stories about a) their relationship never taking off because of whatever, b) stories containing rape/sexual torture, or c) the death of one or both of them. BUT in those cases, I personally need a *really* big pay-off in terms of a) realistically explored context, because the reason I read Pros fic is to enjoy their relationship, b) subtlety (graphic can be very full of impact but easily becomes gratuitous) plus comfort to respond to the hurt c) something from the story as a whole that makes me sad (rather than just a presumption that it's about B and D therefore I will be sad if one of them dies). It was heavily weighted to the forensic detail of Doyle's experience and repeated descriptions of blood and pain are not the only ways to conjure the awfulness of something. The torturer's pov strayed very close to authorial voice at times (eg Doyle's beauty) and I didn't care for it in this particular scenario.

I was ultimately frustrated by the explicit lack of comfort, hated the way Doyle trickled away and didn't recognise Bodie's unemotional, resigned reaction to it. I know Bodie was presented as unable, perhaps, to be any other way, but that's not canon to me. "Comfort" does not need to be physical petting or even words, it just needs to make me believe the comforter cares somewhere inside his hard shell (or even WILL care or at least WANTS to care) for the hurter in a way that rings emotionally true to me, slash or gen. I agree with your "empty" response. I wonder also if being "inspired" by a particular song can be a huge potential pitfall for writers (and vidders come to that).

Thanks for this - it really got me thinking about some of my favourite topics :D

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Hee - I think I'm impressed with my analysis too, especially since it was a story/song fusion, which I expected would be much shallower, analysis-wise. I wasn't even sure if prompted-by-a-song was the same as "fusion", to be honest - but this one worked out pretty well! *g*

I actually liked parts of it more the more I read it - with the exception of the main focus of the story which to me has no redeeming features
Yes! That's what happened to me too - if I'd left it at just one reading I probably would just have said "No thanks", but actually I think there's more to it than a first read suggests... but you're also right about the overall story, which just... didn't compute... The "flashes" of our lads kept me going, and there were enough that worked for me - that's a good description of them though.

BUT in those cases, I personally need a *really* big pay-off
Yes! Again... *g*

It was heavily weighted to the forensic detail of Doyle's experience and repeated descriptions of blood and pain are not the only ways to conjure the awfulness of something.
I didn't think of the description as particularly "forensic" as I was reading through it, but I know what you mean. I wonderful how purposeful the weighting of the story was, actually - I almost get the impression that she started off with something that could have become a very long fic, but then realised she had to finish it and ended up rushing the ending through so that it matched the song but not the rest of the story, if you see what I mean... Cos there was so much about Doyle's torture that it did seem to be the focus - and yet it shouldn't have been, and I'd like to say from the first few scenes that this author should be better than that (but then I've not read her other stories, because something's always put me off one when I've started it - a lack of something that didn't hold my interest. I'll have to try some again, I think!)

The torturer's pov strayed very close to authorial voice at times (eg Doyle's beauty) and I didn't care for it in this particular scenario.
Interesting - I didn't get that at all from the scenes, to be honest. I suppose I felt that Sadegh (that name does not work for me!) had to have a reason for wanting Doyle in the first place, and I didn't think it was repeated so often that it was unrealistic... and I've read elsewhere of people seeing a kind of beauty in someone who's tortured, so I suppose I was crossing it with that idea in my mind... And I'm afraid Doyle is guilty of being quite pretty when he's in pain in the eps... *g*

Yes and yes and yes to your (nearly) last paragraph!

I wonder also if being "inspired" by a particular song can be a huge potential pitfall for writers (and vidders come to that).
I think there might be two levels of this - Torn seems to have stuck really closely to the song in some ways, but I've seen other stories crediting particular songs for inspiration that seem streets away... it'd be interesting to look at another one, though... *g*

[murphybabe]

Oh no - I hadn't realised it was this story! The first time I read it, I was very uncomfortable. I don't like death fic, and I strongly dislike sexual torture fic. I'm echoing what several of you have already said in that the characters weren't quite there for me, because they didn't react like Bodie and Doyle do. And there's another problem, right there - there are 57 episodes where I see them act react, but a lot of what I base their 'real' characters on is, I suspect, from fiction rather than the episodes. So I have my own interpretation of what's them and what's not them.

I think the major issue for me was that it felt removed in some way - not connected, not real, not true to life. I can't believe in a Doyle that commits suicide after such a short time, nor a Bodie that doesn't make every effort to make sure his partner is physically and mentally well. I also think Cowley would have kept a very close eye on both of them, and I'm sure have sicced the lovely Kate Ross onto them as well.

I had a real problem relating the song to the story. Generally, I don't listen to much music, and very few songs inspire deep feelings in me, but the lyrics didn't mean that much and any resemblance to the story was purely coincidental, to me.

Then I started to think about the rest of Brenda Antrim's writing, much of which I enjoy. I was trying to work out why this story didn't work as well for me, and the only conclusion I can come to is that the topics put me off and therefore I couldn't suspend disbelief in the missing bits of character.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

there are 57 episodes where I see them act react, but a lot of what I base their 'real' characters on is, I suspect, from fiction rather than the episodes
Ohhhh, and there's a whole 'nother can of worms! *g* I've definitely got bits of fanon that I'm happy to "go with", but I have to be comfortable that they've come from canon in the first place. I tend to think of Pros writing and reading as a stretchy-spiderweb type thing though - some people weave in lots of extra fanon, and others don't bother with canon at all and leave huge holes, and sometimes I can stretch across one piece of web because there are lots of other threads holding it up, that make sense to me, but other times I just can't make the reach at all...

I do think the three weeks release from hospital was either very realistic - Doyle was able to kill himself precisely because he hadn't been looked after for long enough - or completely unrealistic - would his injuries have healed that quickly (presumably internal as well as external), and what about infection, and shock and blood loss... Mostly, surely Kate Ross would have been more attentive than to let him be at home on his own a mere three weeks later - though if Doyle was convincing, I can perhaps see it... I do think that was all rather skimmed over, though.

D'you know I've not read the rest of Brenda Antrim's writing, she's been an author I've now and then glanced at and then put down - I'll have to remedy that!

[milomaus.livejournal.com]

Oh my, since tuesday I´m really looking forward to this RR!
I really liked that story the first time I read it, but since I know that it´s linked to the song, it feels perfect.

I feel quite shallow, after reading your summary and the interpretations.
Although that was the biggest reason to look forward to this. To see what others think about the story. I find it amazing how deep you dove into the discussion. I´m more the one who goes with the feeling, not really analysing everything...
The story is very strong, and not really the Bodie and Doyle I mostly love with their banter and mind reading, but wow do I like the way she makes them more human? real? selfish!? I really like that for a change. Mind, I´m very glad that most stories aren´t that hard.
The torture scenes are too much, I wasn´t squicked, not that, but there are so many different methods and tortures described in just so little time, it feels very unreal.

I´d really like to get deeper into this, but it is so damn hard to translate everything I´d like to say without getting it all wrong.
I´m sorry that I´m not really taking part in the discussion, but I really enjoy the thoughts of everybody in this case very much and I appreciate that you recced this story in such a great and extensive way!!
And I´m looking forward to more comments.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I'd love you to go deeped into what you feel about the story too - maybe we can work out the translation thing between us...? *g* I'm fascinated to hear the links you make between song and story, you know!

I'm afraid I tend to go with feelings too, most of the time - that's why I like these discussions, because they make me look at why I have particular feelings about things!

I like stories where the lads aren't perfect too - I think they're human, and they have their moments of being selfish, or unthinkingly cruel, or self-protective at the expense of hurting someone else. I'm interested in seeing that, and how they deal with it! I wish Antrim had gone further into that here though - she seemed to hint at it, especially with Bodie's reasons for not being able to care, but she stopped before I'd really learned anything about him. Same with Doyle - we know he'd fancied Bodie for a long time, but not much else... I want more!

I hope you come back and chat some more if you think of what you want to say - even if it's just a sentence at a time!

[margaret-r.livejournal.com]

I’m going to answer your questions as it gives me something to focus my thoughts on with this fic;)

1) Do you agree/disagree with the interpretations I've made about song and story?

I think you’ve done a great job of taking the lyrics from the song and making a literal translation to the story. And the similarities are there - both have been let down by someone they thought they loved and Doyle is torn and broken, the same as the girl of the song. But the difference of course is that for Doyle it’s a physical state whereas the song is metaphorical and while you can find a lot of songs about disappointment and betrayal there aren’t too many that refer to being ‘cold, naked and chained to the floor’! This leads me to think that it’s more a manipulation than an actual fusion with the song.

2) What do you think of Bodie's character - does he match the song? Does it ring true to our ep-Bodie? Can you see him rejecting Doyle like that?

Bodie is a contradiction in this story. He is frantic and literally sick thinking about what has happened to his partner. Yet he is incapable of offering even the slightest comfort when he is found. What is it that’s holding him back? Is it Doyle’s physical injuries themselves or is it the rape and sexual indignities? The writer never explains and to me that is a big problem in the story. You have no real idea where Bodie is coming from in the end, why he is even there with Doyle if he doesn’t want to take the risk of caring again. This Bodie is shown as insensitive, rather stupid and selfish – a complete reversal of the frantic Bodie of the beginning. And no, I don’t think ep-Bodie would act like that.

3) Can you see Doyle committing suicide as a result?

I see why the Doyle of the story committed suicide but I think ep-Doyle would have more resilience and the ability to come to terms with what happened.

4) What do you think Bodie's "impulses" are? What do you think that section refers to?

They could be anything you would want to imagine as the writer only drops a few hints. I don’t buy into the fanon The Game scenario at all as part of Bodie’s history but the writer is possibly trying to convey that Bodie himself has been raped and sexually tortured in the past, which makes it all the more difficult to understand how he could not see Doyle’s pain and understand it.

5) Did you leave the story feeling rather empty as well, or can you see something more in it than I can?

The story left me with no real understanding of why it was written, whether it was an exercise in writing graphic torture scenes or if it was intended as a psychological drama. If it was the latter I don’t think it succeeded. There is no deep meaning in it, only a demonstration of utter hopelessness. You don’t get any kind of ‘feel’ for what is going on emotionally with the characters, they are all too superficial – from the ‘mad’ Arab and raging maniac IRA thug to Bodie and Doyle themselves. So yes, an empty feeling – certainly not sadness because the story didn’t emotionally involve me enough for that.

It’s not a fic I enjoyed and I think you may be right in your suggestion somewhere above that maybe the writer rushed the end. If that’s the case I think she did herself and her readers a disservice.

Thank you for such an interesting and thoughtful review of a story I would normally have dismissed without any analysis at all:)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yeay, focus! The new tradition of questions is kind of fun, isn't it... *g*

for Doyle it’s a physical state whereas the song is metaphorical...This leads me to think that it’s more a manipulation than an actual fusion with the song.
Oh, I don't know about this... I know when I first heard the song I envisioned the singer literally torn and broken on the floor, as if she'd been raped as part of the relationship-gone-wrong (which Jojo above mentioned as well, so...). But I did wonder when I initially posted about them whether songs were really fusions or whether they were more inspirations... Each case is different, I guess, but I can see that this song could have been taken literally by the author, and written about that way, so that bit still works for me...

The writer never explains [why Bodie can't help] and to me that is a big problem in the story.
Yes, she sort of hints that something in his past prevents him, but not quite enough to make it real for me, either...

This Bodie is shown as insensitive, rather stupid and selfish – a complete reversal of the frantic Bodie of the beginning.
Or is he just so damaged that he freezes when actually confronted with Doyle, with what he wants? I can go with that - a version of that moment when something we've wanted for ages comes true (we get a chance to talk to the guy we've been lusting over for ages, perhaps, or to confront someone who's treated us badly) and for whatever reason we just freeze, and the moment slips away, and you vow that next time you'll do it... Of course Bodie's vowing the opposite, that he never will, but I'd've liked to see the story extended so that his never-will is worn down by looking after Doyle, breaking through his old traumas and freeing him to love again... of course that didn't happen, as you say we ended up with a Bodie who didn't seem to be ep-Bodie, who does act on things, and even talk about them (the girl in Africa) when pushed...

but the writer is possibly trying to convey that Bodie himself has been raped and sexually tortured in the past
Hmmn, not sure I can see that actually - why would he be thinking about his impulses then, as something that Doyle needs to be protected from...? I suppose the question is whether the author bought into the Game scenario, and included it in her story as something Bodie doesn't want to go back to, to taint Doyle with... perhaps that's the only way he's experienced sex with men, and that's why he rejects Doyle...


the ‘mad’ Arab and raging maniac IRA thug
Yes, that's a good point too - the villains are a bit stereotyped, though at least they've not been made stupid, which always annoys me! Are our lads stereotyped...? And how does "stereotyped" compare with "written to canon" (or fanon, for that matter)... Interesting questions you've given me in return - thank you! *g* And yeay Reading Room!

[brenantrim.livejournal.com]

This is really interesting - y'all went much deeper into the story than I did! I'm not sure I'd call it a fusion - the song inspired a scene, which inspired the story, but I wasn't thinking of interpreting the song directly into the story (though it looks like it crept in anyway, going by the discussion - what a great discussion). One question - did anyone else think Bodie committed suicide with the razor he was holding? I did.

It's always fascinating to see readers' reactions - I've often thought that the one who brings meaning to the story is the reader, not the writer. Personally, the story gives me the willies, but had to write it to get it out of my head. None of my other Pros stories are like this one. But the image of a Doyle, and later a Bodie, driven beyond mending, was one I had to address. The comment about shame being an element in the sexual torture was exactly what I intended, because the inability to bridge that shame is what broke them both. The only thing I read (and wrote) in the fandom was the Lads staying together no matter what - this may have been a reaction to that, though it wasn't conscious. Some things, I think, nobody can come back from.

Thanks for the opportunity to plunge back into Pros discussion for a bit - this was fun!

[milomaus.livejournal.com]

So cool that you came here for this discussion and thank you for all the fantastic Stories you wrote!!
(Just so I said it at least once!)

I really loved to read your explanation on this story, and it makes so much more sense now!!

Answer to your question: I don´t know, really.
Now that you ask that, I might recall that there was a tiny thought of that flashing through my mind, but until now I had him living and dealing with Doyles suicide in my head.....
so I guess I have to confess that, No, the way you had him react on Doyles needs, I didn´t see him die, too!
(I do know, sorry for getting confused....)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I've often thought that the one who brings meaning to the story is the reader, not the writer
Yes! Although I think most writers try to - or do, because the story has meaning to them, but it won't necessarily have the same meaning to other people, who have their own contexts to read through... That's one reason I was fascinated to hear what you'd thought of Out of Faith when you wrote it... *g* How fun that the song crept further into your story than you thought, too... *g*

I don't think I did wonder whether Bodie thought of suicide for himself at the end - I think I'd been so thrown by how far in denial he was that I couldn't see him doing anything except continue to react with denial, constructing walls between himself and Doyle just as we had hints that he'd done between himself and his merc days, and other people/love in general.

I do wonder if songs, by their very nature, can ever be proper "fusions", but since they were listed that way at Hatstand, and seemed to give more scope for fic to discuss, I thought we could think of them that way! I know I've been inspired to write by songs (though I don't think I've ever finished any of those fics), and it's been largely the atmosphere of the song rather than just the words that have made me want to - and I find Torn very atmospheric (and am very glad I didn't see the video until it was well and truly in my head, years later, because that might have completely changed what I thought of it!

Anyway - sorry for the delay in replying, I had a sudden bump of real life busy-ness. I'm really pleased you came over to read and comment, so many years after writing in Pros! Thank you! *g*

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

Thanks for being brave enough to plunge back in and look at the discussion of your story!! It's always interesting to hear from the author - and I'm so glad the story gives you the willies too! *g* At least you know your writing gives rise to discussion at a fairly serious level, and that's quite a compliment. I shall now go and take a look at some of your other stuff - SG1, here I come!

[moonlightmead.livejournal.com]

I am gutted that I missed the original discussion. This fic made quite an impact on me the first time I read it. I have read it more than once since then, and I was glad to see it come up on the Reading Room. So I came to this page to try to answer byslantedlight's questions now that I have a minute. But I am going to have to think in more detail first, I think - the page has grown tenfold since last I looked.

In the meantime, delighted that you popped in, thank you for such a memorable story, and I can answer your question straightaway: One question - did anyone else think Bodie committed suicide with the razor he was holding?
- absolutely. I presumed that was the intention. I thought about it some more (before seeing your question) and wondered if it could be read in any other way - eg perhaps instead that Bodie was about to go on a rampage and kill anyone he thought connected with it - just in case I was misunderstanding; but no, I thought he wasn't walking out of that room.

In a way, that made the ending less bleak for me. I realise that's an odd thing to say - it looks pretty weird as I type it. I'm not sure how to explain that one...